Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: Kviljo on July 08, 2007, 07:47:46 pm
-
I've been making a bellow lately. No hoover here ;)
I'm a complete newbie when it comes to blacksmithing, so any feedback is very welcome!
The first ones aren't any good, but I'm pretty pleased with the 2-3 last ones. - for only having played blacksmith a few hours :)
Well, pictures are always fun, so here they are:
(http://kviljo.no/bue/smi/1.jpg)
(http://kviljo.no/bue/smi/2.jpg)
(http://kviljo.no/bue/smi/3.jpg)
(http://kviljo.no/bue/smi/4.jpg)
(http://kviljo.no/bue/smi/5.jpg)
(http://kviljo.no/bue/smi/6.jpg)
(http://kviljo.no/bue/smi/7.jpg)
(http://kviljo.no/bue/smi/8.jpg)
-
I would say you did pretty darn good. There is quite a bit of improvement from the first to the last. You will be a professional blacksmith in no time. Maybe you should make me some horse shoes. ;D Justin
-
I'm deeply impressed kviljo! Was it easy?
-
Thanks :)
I'm not sure about the horse shoes, but the points weren't impossible. Hoping to make some more tonight.
The video that John Marshall put out has been a huge help!
-
Nice work man! Could you post more pics of your forge set-up? That looked pretty simple.
J. D. Duff
-
Think I read something online about the process where you nead to reduce the stock a bit before flatenning it and creating the socket but leave a little extra beyond the socket and before the head for a shoulder/transition section. Supposed to make it more durable and your socket wont run into the bodkin head.
Interresting setup there. Can we hear more about the forge and how you made it? Looks like something that could get me started too!
-
Talk us through it kviljo... I have a BIG hammer, charcoal and a hoover, what next? I had a feeling this thread would create a stir :D
-
The setup is pretty simple, well as simple as it can get. Use what you find. Perhaps apart from the main part of the bellow, which I put some effort into, to make it durable and air tight. The furnace is just an old steel rim with a flywheel inside. Not sure how thick it needs to be, but the flywheel makes it pretty air tight. And the air comes up through the senter of the rim via a modified exhaust-pipe. I used an engine block as an anvil, but I broke that, so I found a solid steel bar. - actually a weight for a tractor. I'm going to make a more thought through set up later. I just had to get started and find out what works and what doesn't.
I'm using charcoal now, but are considering to get hold of some pit coal. Don't know what more there is to say. The bellow blows more than enough air, and I'm sure it will do fine with larger things too.
If there is time tomorrow, I'll post some more pictures.
I made a new bodkin tonight, and transformed a horse shoe into a candlestick.
(http://kviljo.no/bue/smi/b.jpg)
(http://kviljo.no/bue/smi/a.jpg)
(http://kviljo.no/bue/smi/c.jpg)
-
I'm so jealous. Very nice work. And yes--please show us some more detailed pics of your setup. I didn't even know you could get charcoal hot enough to get steel red.
J. D. Duff
-
I'd be interested in seeing your set up also. I like making what I need from what I can find. That's primitive!
Pat
-
Looking good kviljo! you'll be a rich man when you start selling them :D.
-
You're a man of many talents.
How did you get the end of the socket flat? Grinding?
-
No problem getting charcoal hot enough, but pit coal is lasting longer.
If anyone is interested in trading something for my points, I'd be glad to :)
It is possible to make the end of the socket pretty flat by just hammering, but i did grind the last one a bit. Take a look at the first picture. There's one with a quite flat socket before grinding.
-
There looking better all the time! Good work there!
-
We still need a picture of that forge. (If it's not too much to ask).
J. D.
-
And we'd like to see you turn a candlestick into a horse shoe :D
-
I'll see what I can do Simon ;D
Here's some more pictures :)
(http://kviljo.no/bue/smi2/1.jpg)
(http://kviljo.no/bue/smi2/2.jpg)
(http://kviljo.no/bue/smi2/3.jpg)
(http://kviljo.no/bue/smi2/4.jpg)
(http://kviljo.no/bue/smi2/5.jpg)
(http://kviljo.no/bue/smi2/6.jpg)
(http://kviljo.no/bue/smi2/7.jpg)
-
Kvilgo, those are really nice for your first points. I am really interested in your forge. Good job.
Dick Bernier
-
Thanks for posting those pics Kviljo. That looks like a very simple setup. I was looking into making a propane forge but it just got too expensive for me. I think I could handle what you've got there.
How long does it take to get the steel red-hot?
J. D. Duff
-
A section of rail road track makes a good anvil. I like your simple set up. ;) Pat
-
Just thought I'd share some more photos.
Mark Stretton has forged the one on the shaft. I think I've been a bit too much influenced by that point, because almost none of my points are under 1/2" size, hehe.
I started on a type 16 too, but I'm struggeling with the splitting and making the point pointy. ::)
(http://kviljo.no/bue/smi2/a.jpg)
And a group photo. That's the head of my new selfmade paddle by the way :) Haven't tried it yet, but I think it got a bit too narrow.
(http://kviljo.no/bue/smi2/b.jpg)
Click these links for larger pictures:
http://kviljo.no/bue/smi2/a.jpg
http://kviljo.no/bue/smi2/b.jpg
The whole forge cost me about 200$, because a bought a way too expensive board to make the bellow. ::)
When the forge is hot, and the blank is just not hot enough to hammer, it only takes a couple (5-15 perhaps - didn't count) of pumps to make it glow again. But it really depends on how thick the blank is, and how well the coal is covering the blank, plus how far it is placed from the air flow.
Oh, and you need a couple of spare hands. Mine is starting to wear out already.
-
Kviljo, how do you get the flattened bit starting to curve?
John Marshall used some sort of U shaped groove and hammered the centre of the flat bit into the U with the thin end of the hammer. Then he used a bit of tapered metal and hammered the socket round it. Do you do the same thing?
-
Nope, but if I had a real anvil with some accessories, I would do the same. But it works okay to do it on a flat surface too. Get it to curve just a little, hammer on it vertically, and it curls up nicely almost by itself :)
-
Couldn't you shape the socket around a piece of re bar ground to a point? That way you could get some consistency.
J. D. Duff
-
Yep, bet that would work well. I'm going to fetch a big old anvil some day soon now, so I'll make some tools for it. Though I've found out that it really isn't neccessary to get a nice socket, it sure would be a lot easier.
-
It also might be possible to weld the overlapping flaps together.
-
Yep, bet that would work well. I'm going to fetch a big old anvil some day soon now, so I'll make some tools for it. Though I've found out that it really isn't neccessary to get a nice socket, it sure would be a lot easier.
You need one of these: (They're only about 2,000 bucks).
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Ohh :D That looks HUGE! ;D
"Mine" is weighing 150#
Making a tanged point there? - or are you making the socket after the point?
That looks like a little more effective furnace than mine 8) Maybe I shold give mine some walls and a roof too. Bet that saves a lot of coal.
-
The local blacksmith was just letting me use his shop one Saturday. I actually have an open invitation to work there and use his natural gas forge and anvil. He was pretty interested in my desire to make bodkins. At that point, I had no idea what I was doing so I was just practicing shaping the necks and points.
(http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q35/duffontap/Bodkin.jpg)
That was hard enough. After hunting season I'll try some more.
J. D.
-
That looks very nice! The part I'm struggeling the most with, is hitting where I want, hehe. ;D So I most often end up drawing the point out in a long and not so thick point :-\
But I see you don't have that problem :)
-
Nice looking JD and Kviljo, good luck on finding an anvil. They are scarce and I mean scarce.
Dick
-
I've done some bladesmithing and I really enjoyed it. I made a nice knife and a tomahawk. I forgewelded the tomahawk using plain charcoal. It does get hot enough!! I have found melted metal in the bottom of my forge. I have made some arrowheads but I'm still learning to get the same size and weight for some consistency. ::)
possum
p.s. I get so jealous when I see people forging. I need to get mine set back up.
-
Got myself a nice 68kg /150# anvil yesterday ;D
It says 1917 on the side 8)
So I tried making this one:
(http://kviljo.no/bue/ar.jpg)
Need to practise a bit more on those, hehe
-
Check out "Secrets of the English Warbow" It has some pictures in it on how those ones are made.
David T
-
It's not too far off what you're aiming for Kviljo. I mean it's symetrical which must be very hard to achieve. And with a bit of grinding it might turn out OK.
I've never done any forging, so I'm only guessing here... but wouldn't repeated heating and hammering from various directions help to weld those bits together?
-
Yep Tiller! The bad thing is that I forgot to bring with me that book from where I study :-\
I partly remembered the sequence where the type 16 or swallow-tail was made, but seeing it again would be a lot of help.
Don't think I will bother more with that point. I suppose it would be possible to use some borax and weld it better together, but I'd much rather start on a new one :)
-
I'm not a blacksmith and what I know is from observation only. ::) From what you have there, you need to get it hot enough so you "weld" the metal together into a harmonious mass then refine the shape. Those techniques come with experience. ;) ...just like building bows. That head on a 1000gr goose feathered ash shaft would put a hurtin" on you! ;D Pat
-
That head on a 1000gr goose feathered ash shaft would put a hurtin" on you! ;D Pat
Or a horse. :o
J. D.
-
SWEEEEEEEET anvil! Please put me in your will. (It never hurts to ask ::) ).
J. D. Duff
-
I've been told that I do this the wrong way, because I split the bolt in front and make a T first, then make the socket, and then fold the barbs back. I may have confused the method of making type 16s with the cresent-thingy. I'm going to try to chisel the barbs out from the side of the point tomorrow. Sounds like the correct way to do it. Although large swallowtails must be hard to make that way.
-
If i remember correctly from the book the tines of the swallow tail were cut from the sction that was to be maid into the socket for the shaft. They cut into them then bent them away from the material that would become the socket. Then roled the socket and then hamered out the pointe and formed them along with the tines. Hope that helps! ;D
-
Hehe JD ;D I'm pretty pleased with it, although it sings like mad.
Thanks Tiller! That confirmes what I've heard. And the way you said it, it really makes sense to me now! Think I will need a larger piece of steel then, to be able to draw the barbs out longer than the socket, and still be able to make the socket, hehe. I'll try it!
Pat, it's not enough to just heat the metal enough to weld it together. One needs some fine chalky sand or Borax to do that, but I haven't tried to forgeweld just yet :)
-
Tell us about using a hoover Kviljo, as I might have a go. Do you put the whole hoover in a bin bag tied to the exhaust pipe?
-
I'm as complete a beginner as you guys, but the hoover-thing is something that has been going on for a while, and I've only heard of it. Old hoovers is said to have a reverse-function, so that they blow.
If I had one, I probably wouldn't have built my little bellow.
But I suppose your suggestion would work just fine actually. Might be a good idea to take the bag and filter out first not to waste the energy, but other than that I don't see why it shouldn't work.
It is also said that the millitary has some handy compact forges.
-
I've been reading about making a forge. It seems a brake drum is one of the best things to use but you need to block off some of the holes at the bottom and that requires welding etc. which I can't do at present.
What about a flower pot? I mean a big thick earthenware one with a hold at the bottom to let in the air. Do you think it could take the extreme heat? My other option is an old barbeque but I have a feeling the thin metal would burn up.
-
You could just put some bolts into the holes, or place a metal plate inside the brake drum.
I bet a regular cheap grill won't be able to withstand the heat, but a ceramic pot would perhaps. Though I bet there's a reason nobody uses them :)
-
Thanks Kviljo. I'm off to the scrap yard at the weekend to see what I can find. Hows that number 16 going?
-
Good :)
I haven't tried since that last one, just need to regenerate my hand first.
-
I'm racking my brain trying to think of a forge material to use. Could you just make one out of brick and mortar? Would a 1' x 1' box 6" deep be a good size? I might try that if none of you can think of a reason why it wouldn't work.
J. D.
-
Oh yea! I remember. The borax acts as a flux to remove scale so you get molten metal to molten metal. Dang. I have to try this. I've been interested for 30 years but never pursued it. ::) Pat
-
I'm racking my brain trying to think of a forge material to use. Could you just make one out of brick and mortar? Would a 1' x 1' box 6" deep be a good size? I might try that if none of you can think of a reason why it wouldn't work.
J. D.
I've read that fire bricks are OK - not sure about the mortar. I don't see why we couldn't use anything that's been in a kiln - temperatures there rise to about 1200 celcius I believe. Maybe standard bricks won't last as long as fire bricks though.
-
I believe bricks are ok for the structure but you may want to line it with some kind of clay with a high fire temperature to act as a refractory material. Also plug in a bunch of grog ta act as a binder a stop to shrinkage. I think the clay also helps to keep the heat from being drawn away from the fire.
-
If you want to make a "pot" to hold the coal, try finding an old deep cast iron frying pan and drill a hole in the center for the blow pipe. I've seen some pretty big ones at the flea markets. You can make a steel frame to hold it and utilize it to add pipe legs etc.
Dick
-
Avoid flower pots guys. Mine cracked after a few minutes and flames started coming through the cracks. But it was very effective while it lasted - the metal got red hot in a minute or two.
I used the hoover in a bag as an air supply. Initially it produced far too much pressure and the flower pot resembled a small rocket. I solved that by cutting a few holes in the bag to reduce the pressure.
-
galvanized wash tub with an adobe mixture of clay (kitty litter), ash and sand around the inside sloping down to form a trough around the tuyere (a black pipe with holes drilled in it. ). Run the pipe out the ends so you can attach your air source. I have made two of them. Easy to make and functional.
possum
-
I was told to avoid anything galvanised as it gives off toxic fumes when heated. But you're obviously still alive :)
Despite the difficulty finding a suitable container for the fire, I'm encouraged that it's easy to get the metal hot enough to forge. Charcoal worked a treat.
-
I made a forge out of eleven normal house bricks today - no mortar, I just packed them close together and left a gap between two for the air pipe. It worked ok and I managed to flatten the end of a 1/2 inch iron rod.
My makeshift anvil got big dents though. I need something better.
-
Nice!!
Great fun playing with a red-hot "don't want to touch"-thing, aint it? ;D
-
:D yes it's great fun. I could hardly believe it when I first took that glowing thing out of the fire.
I'm wondering if I'm not getting it quite hot enough. It's red, but not orange or white hot and it takes about 6 bouts of hammering to get it flat (could be my bad anvil). How long do you leave your rod in the fire? I leave mine about a minute between hammerings.
-
When you heat it too much, sparks start flying of the steel. I try to get it as hot as possible, without starting the sparks, if I have a clear plan of how I'm going to hammer it.
A small piece heats quicker than a large, so I cut of the part I'm going to use firstly, and hold it with a plier. It saves some time during reheating I think.
-
(http://kviljo.no/bue/spydspiss/2.jpg)
(http://kviljo.no/bue/spydspiss/3.jpg)
(http://kviljo.no/bue/spydspiss/4.jpg)
(http://kviljo.no/bue/spydspiss/1.jpg)
It's about 25-30 cm long.
-
Looks like you are getting the hang of it, Smithy! ;) ;D
Hope you guys in GB are keeping your powder dry. Looks pretty wet over there these days...even for England! :o Pat
-
I'm still on terra firma Pat :) Scotland has a lot of high land, so I feel quite safe.
Kviljo, that last set of pics is very impressive. Nice ridge running down the middle of that one, it must have been done very carefully. Can I ask what diameter stock you are using to make a standard bodkin. My stock is about 1/2 inch diameter - it's a concrete reinforcing rod like that one you showed early in this thread. But I think 1/2 inch stock might be too big and that I should draw it out a bit before making the socket.
-
I was struggeling a bit with that ridge. Not so easy when you can't control your hammer ;D
For the spearpoint I used a steel rod of a little under 1" I think. That was almost not enough, as you see I had some trouble getting the socked material wide enough at the end. But it helps to use the "flat screwdriver"-side of the hammer to widen the bar.
But for the arrowpoints I used the same as you have. Seems to be just enough for large bodkins. Though it depends on how thin you hammer the socket, and how large you want the head to be, so I would just give it a try and see how it goes.
-
Kvijio Your arrow heads are coming along. marlon
-
You may laugh, but I'm proud of it :D :D :D
(http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u118/simon2468/HPIM0242.jpg)
(http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u118/simon2468/HPIM0249.jpg)
-
Five more of those, and your there :)
Nice to see that you have your forge up and going!! 8)
-
Thanks Kviljo. Can you see the socket actually extends into the head a bit? I had to hammer it closed again!
When I hammer the end flat, should I be aiming for a rectangular shape? I had a triangular shape and the end nearest the tip was far too thick. I couldn't curl it round. I also think I haven't flattened the socket enough in general - it wasn't wide enough and the edges don't overlap.
-
Yep, I remember doing the same thing. The socket just kept getting longer and longer :) Try using the "screwdriver"-side of a hammer like this one: (http://www.smie.no/images/Steen___Smeden_036_small.jpg)
That really helps to widen it out quickly.
I'm aming for a trapeze shape.
Tried making a 12-century dagger, plus a to-be 13-c quilliondagger by the way.
(http://kviljo.no/bue/smi3/1.jpg)
(http://kviljo.no/bue/smi3/2.jpg)
-
Yes I need to get a hammer like that. How do you use it to shape the flat bit? Do you hammer with the long axis of the 'screwdriver' parallel with the axis of the arrow head?
Beautiful daggers by the way. I'm looking forward to seeing that quilliondagger when it's finished.
Since I started this blacksmithing, my girlfriend has been asking for iron cake stands and chandeliers etc ...somehow I think that's a long way off :-\
-
A slightly better one today.
(http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u118/simon2468/HPIM0251.jpg)
(http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u118/simon2468/HPIM0254.jpg)
-
SimonUK, you might want to leave a bit of section between the head and the socket after rolling the socket and creating the head. Then reduce it a little in diameter. Makes a smoother bond between the point and the socket.
David T.
-
Yes I agree DT. I always wondered why there was a narrower section between the head and the socket. Now I can see that it is necessary in order to close up the tip of the socket.
-
Nice! 8)
Let's keep 'em coming ;D
Making a narrow section between the head and socket is the hardest part, because you don't want to hit either the socket or the head while narrowing the middle bit. And that's not easy when you've got 10 effective seconds to work it :)
Yep, use the hammer as you said. It widens the material much more than you can with just the regular side of the hammer.
Making a simple candelier isn't that difficult compared to a small bodkin, at least if you go for a simple horseshoe-version like mine ;)
-
Curious, how many of you work at the iron at colder temps to reduce the ammount of upset and do finnishing work?
-
Good question DT. I find you can work on the iron even when it's completely cold. It bends much less of course. I straightened this bodkin out a little when it was cold and rounded off the socket more. I wonder if it's possible to make a bodkin without any heat at all?
I don't know about you Kviljo, but it's taking me ages to make a single bodkin, about 30 minutes. There's a good chance I'm going to upset the neighbours too, so I don't know how much of this I can do.
-
Simon, one of the guys I work with at Camlann (Check out www.Camlann.org ) is making Plate armor in the medieval style. He is going to be making some jigs for a couple of us this winter so that we can pound out bodkin and other points quickly. I think it all comes down to having the right tools and set up. Once you are able to round out the socket on some kind of form it becomes quick and easy. Plus, I bet ya ten to one the blacksmiths in the medieval ages had a primitive assembly line to make these points by the hundreds. One person made the socket the next the neck and the last the head. The old saying about "Having one in the fire!" is true when you think of it from a blacksmiths perspective. While you work on one you have one heating in the fire so that when the one in your hand is cold the one in the fire is ready to work. Instead of one done in half an hour you have three.
Plus thinking on it. Get the rough work done first and then put the finnishing touches on later when you can use less heat and true things up.
David T.
-
What an interesting place to work DT. The menu at the Bors Hede made my mouth water :P
-
Thats just a sampler menu too! You should see some of the other feasts they have. If you ever get over here try the Fenberry Pie. Best dang meat and custard pie I have ever had and the live entertainment is fantastic. We are having a medieval fair going on now untill the end of August every weekend. This weekend is dedicated to medieval martial arts. Next two are music and crafts, the following two are the plays and entertainment of the medieval times. The Village Freemen will be giving demonstrations of english archery with warbows. The smith is making armor and the cider press demonstration happens once a day. Food is available from the Bores Head. Though I do wish they woud vary the lunch menu a bit more! I'm getting a bit tired of the strawbery/nut/meat pottage! :P
David T
-
When it stops to glow, I reheat it. Otherwide there will be internal tensions in it, and may shred or break more easily. Don't think there is much to gain to hammer it till it's cold, because it will just take longer to reheat it, pluss it's much easier to shape it when it's glowing.
-
Meat and custard pie :-\ ...there's nothing like a good bit of delicate english cuisine. Are you going to be one of the freemen? Sounds great fun.
-
Yep! That will be me with some fynberry pie in one hand and a bow in the other! ;D
-
(http://kviljo.no/bue/quillion.jpg)
8)
-
Is that the quillion dagger? It looks excellent whatever it is :) How do you find the time to do all of this ???