Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Pat B on January 13, 2012, 07:21:28 pm

Title: Winter project #2
Post by: Pat B on January 13, 2012, 07:21:28 pm
This is the yew stave that Keenan gave me last year at the Classic. He had already shaped it into a Pacific Northwest style paddle bow. It had pretty thick sapwood on it so I thinned it to about 3 or 4 rings. There are some violations above those rings but this bow will be sinew backed. Here it what it looked like early this week...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/47inchyewmodocKeenan004.jpg)

(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/47inchyewmodocKeenan003.jpg)

  I've been reducing the bellyquite a bit but it is still quite stiff. I did get about 2" of tip movement at floor tiller so I decided it was time to flip the tips, not much, just a gentle flip. The first limb went very well. The second limb has a knot at one side of the tip. I knew it would be a problem and it was. As I began to bend this tip I heard a crack and noticed the knot gave way. It didn't seperate from the limb so I filled it with super glue. It is in a non bending part of the tip so I'm not worrying about it.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/47inchyewmodocaKeenan001.jpg)

here is the knot. You might be able to see where it seperated ...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/47inchyewmodocaKeenan002.jpg)

(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/47inchyewmodocaKeenan004.jpg)

...and the end results...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/47inchyewmodocaKeenan005.jpg)
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: seabass on January 13, 2012, 07:27:16 pm
nice job Pat.i hope Keenan brings some yew to the classic this year.i have been wanting to give it a try.i have some horn nocks so i want to build an elb.good luck on your paddle bow,Steve
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Del the cat on January 13, 2012, 07:57:31 pm
Lookin' good.
Del
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: osage outlaw on January 13, 2012, 08:22:45 pm
Are you planning on sinew backing that Pat?  I have a short piece of yew from Keenan that I'm saving for a special build.  I'll be watching your progress closely.
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Elktracker on January 13, 2012, 08:55:11 pm
Look forward to this one as well!

Josh
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: toomanyknots on January 13, 2012, 09:17:42 pm
Nice... I love your build alongs. I usually drool over your work bench and vice/tip flipping forms just as much as your bows... (if your wonderin why I'll just let you know that my work bench has been a combination of a back porch and my wife's dresser for about 2 years now...)
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Catahoula on January 13, 2012, 09:43:25 pm
Wow,

That knot woulda scared the bejesers outta me Pat.  I have been working on a hornbeam for about a year now...mostly staring at it saying to it "change into a bow" but that doesn't seem to be working so now I am praying over it...  Sure is nice to see a master at his work!

Rand
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: gstoneberg on January 13, 2012, 11:34:34 pm
I love your build-a-longs too Pat.  Always something new to learn.  Gonna be a nice bow.

George
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Keenan on January 13, 2012, 11:41:29 pm
That is looking really good Pat, You should be ok with the tip. Just keep it a little stiffand non bending like you said.  ;)
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Pat B on January 14, 2012, 01:15:44 am
Keenan, with longer yew bows I got quicker reactions from wood removal than I am with this shorty. Is that common? I keep taking wood off and it still don't want to bend much.  >:(
  Randy, if it breaks, it breaks. Worrying doesn't build bows.  ;) You need to get here in July so we can get that bow of yours finished!  ;D
 TMK mkost all scrounged or thrown together. Nothing special here...cept my mess!  ;D
  Definately sinew backing this puppy, Clint.
  Thanks George, Del, Josh and steve. Stay tuned in. This project should last all winter.  ;D
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: swamp yeti on January 14, 2012, 01:31:07 am
That is going to be another nice one Pat.
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Pat B on January 14, 2012, 01:54:13 am
Thanks Yeti. I'm looking forward to doing this little bow.
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: TurtleCreek on January 14, 2012, 05:00:08 am
This style definitely interests me, I look forward to your progress
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: soy on January 14, 2012, 07:17:40 am
Yes, yes, yes ;D I can't stand it ...that thing is gonna be so cool ;)
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Dazv on January 14, 2012, 09:34:29 am
I can't wait to see this one all finished up.
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: DRon knife on January 14, 2012, 12:12:12 pm
Looking good Pat,give us a good step by step on the sinew backing effort,I'm VERY interested!! Ron
 
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Carson (CMB) on January 14, 2012, 02:12:50 pm
Pat, I haven't made a whole lot of bows but two of them have been paddle style bows, and yes, it takes a lot of wood removal before things start bending.  It's also easier than hell to develop a hinge once you are approaching weight, and then to miss weight correcting hinge/s.  I think I read somewhere that a limb twice as wide is twice as strong but a limb twice as thick is eight times as strong.  I like to keep that in mind when tillering paddle style bows, as you can expect the limb thickness to be about half of what you would expect for a yew bow with limbs half as wide, and that small amounts of wood removal across the entire width of the back can affect tiller in big ways (it just seems to take a while to get to that point, but all too easy to shoot past it on those extra wide limbs). Not to be that annoying, know-it-all newbie, but thought I would pass on my learning experience with the paddle stlye bows.  Looking forward to watching it progress.
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: mikekeswick on January 14, 2012, 02:23:42 pm
CMB - what you said is spot on and to take it a little further than twice as thick limb is eigth times as stiff but only twice the weight....ummm....
Pat - the bow is looking good so far, i've got just the piece of yew that i've been saving to try a paddle type bow like this.
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: toomanyknots on January 14, 2012, 02:26:02 pm
Pat, I haven't made a whole lot of bows but two of them have been paddle style bows, and yes, it takes a lot of wood removal before things start bending.  It's also easier than hell to develop a hinge once you are approaching weight, and then to miss weight correcting hinge/s.  I think I read somewhere that a limb twice as wide is twice as strong but a limb twice as thick is eight times as strong.  I like to keep that in mind when tillering paddle style bows, as you can expect the limb thickness to be about half of what you would expect for a yew bow with limbs half as wide, and that small amounts of wood removal across the entire width of the back can affect tiller in big ways (it just seems to take a while to get to that point, but all too easy to shoot past it on those extra wide limbs). Not to be that annoying, know-it-all newbie, but thought I would pass on my learning experience with the paddle stlye bows.  Looking forward to watching it progress.

All thats very true. For this reason (and also that I am lazy) I like to make bows that are made of less than ideal woods more of an oval cross section instead of making the limbs alot wider...
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Pat B on January 14, 2012, 03:41:27 pm
I have the limbs shaped in a thin lenticular shape and will try to maintain that throughout the tillering process. Most of the example of paddle bows I've seen were lenticular cross section. I'll be working this bow pretty slowly and carefully, at least until I get it tillered out a ways then I'll begin adding the sinew.
  I'll be scraping her a bit this afternoon and as soon as she begins to bend noticeably I'll post more pics.
  Thanks for the comments, helpful hints and support.  I'm working on two bows simultaneously so I go back and forth between them depending on where I am in the process.
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Pat B on January 15, 2012, 07:48:21 pm
I got her bending a bit today...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/47inchyewmodoccKeenan003.jpg)

(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/47inchyewmodocdKeenan004.jpg)
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Catahoula on January 15, 2012, 09:17:29 pm
Hey Pat,

If you don't mind show the sinew process too...

Rand
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Carson (CMB) on January 15, 2012, 10:13:42 pm
Looking good. What is the length on that thing?
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Keenan on January 15, 2012, 10:19:52 pm
Pat that bend is looking perfect. Are you about ready to sinew that baby?
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: HickoryBill on January 15, 2012, 11:27:36 pm
Looking good Pat!!
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: criveraville on January 16, 2012, 01:08:27 am
That's looking good ther Pat. Like that bows profile.

Cipriano
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Pat B on January 16, 2012, 01:11:46 am
I think it is still way too stiff Keenan. I'd like to get it to at least low brace before adding the sinew. She has lost some of the reflex I added but will draw her up in reflex before adding the sinew.
  CMB, 47"t/t.  over 45"n/n.
 Rand, I will when time comes. I'm gonna use backstrap sinew. 2 layers of 3 or 4 back sinews
Thanks Bill and Cipriano.
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Elktracker on January 16, 2012, 02:03:20 am
Pat thats looking real good!

Josh
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: ErictheViking on January 16, 2012, 01:14:16 pm
Looks great, nice bend on the tiller tree. cant wait to see it finished up.
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Pat B on January 26, 2012, 05:27:58 pm
I did a little more scraping on this bow today. She is pulling 50#@17" now...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/47yewpaddlebow002.jpg)

  I have a question...I would like this bow to pull 50#@26" after the sinew cures if that is possible. I can go less on length and/or weight if needed.   With the flipped tips I still have good string angle at 17" of draw. Also, (she's pulling 50#@17", approx 77#@26"). Is it too soon to add the sinew? I will be adding 2 to 3 courses of backstrap sinew using hide glue and I want the sinew to draw the bow into reflex as it cures. I will set her up with backset while adding the sinew and while it cures.
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on January 26, 2012, 05:40:38 pm
Sorry Pat, your not allowed to ask questions. Only answer them!
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Elktracker on January 26, 2012, 05:52:46 pm
 ;D Ya no kidding Pearl I saw that and I was like thats a first for me lol ;D

Josh
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: paulsemp on January 26, 2012, 06:08:15 pm
I follow jim hamm's idea out of bows and arrows of the native american's book and never stress the wood before sinew. now i know backing a bow is a whole lot of work for something you never had a string on, but i do agree with him in the idea that potential damage and internal stress could be done to the wood that would not happen if the backing was on. I would back it now, set it in a reflex like you want, tiller it later. just my opinion.  26" on a 48" bow with no backing, impressive!!!
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Gus on January 26, 2012, 06:13:22 pm
Excellent Thread Sir!

I have a Yew Problem Child stave with this style bow in mind waiting in line.

Thank You for sharing your process! :)

-gus
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Pat B on January 26, 2012, 06:15:13 pm
I'll never get it to 26" without sinew and I hope I can then!  ::)   
  I'm not perfect, Josh and Pearlie. Not quite!  ;D
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: paulsemp on January 26, 2012, 06:29:37 pm
sorry pat i did not see the (approx) 77#@26
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: blackhawk on January 26, 2012, 07:00:56 pm
I agree with pauls thinking about not taking any set and stressing the bow presinew if it is your objective to sinew it. I've done it both ways and my results in set,cast,n early draw weight was very noticeable. So I now long string it to the point of bracing the bow and where I have about 5-10 lbs left to reach my desired draw weight,then I sinew it. I wood not be pulling it any further and I wood reduce your weight by at least 20 more pounds from where your at. If your early tiller is good,and your sinew is nicely laid down evenly and equally in both limbs then it just makes life a whole easier when you go to finish tiller it out when she's seasoned.

I can't believe im answering a question for you...you should be answering mine..lol ;)
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Pat B on January 26, 2012, 07:36:00 pm
I don't have a lot of experience with yew, sinew backing or short paddle bows. This will be my shortest sinew backed bow and I'd like to eventually shoot it if everything goes well.   ;D
  I have not pulled this bow beyond 50# and am just working out the draw inch by inch. So far only long scrapes with a scraper, exercising the bend and checking the weight. I'm loosing about a pound per 25 scrapes.
  In the past I have tillered a bow to be sinewed, either to about 3/4 tiller or to full draw before adding the sinew. I hold the the bow in reflex when I add sinew and give the sinew plenty of time to dry before releasing the bow from the form.
  This is how I held the last sinew bow in reflex while I sinewed it. I used a thicker piece of sinew to make a loop around the handle then, with the tips on 2x4 blocks I drew the handle down and hooked the sinew loop to a small screw hook.  When done I just cut the sinew loop close to the backing and that was it. Worked great!!!
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/shortsinewbackedosage005.jpg)

(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/shortsinewbackedosage006.jpg)

(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/shortsinewbackedosage002.jpg)
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: bowtarist on January 26, 2012, 08:00:34 pm
Nice lookin bow, I didn't read the text, but it looks pretty short. Boy I'm about to start one.
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: sadiejane on January 26, 2012, 09:04:47 pm
great thread! thanks pat for sharing
and asking questions  :)
got a shorty stave of yew sitting  to the side
really really wanna figure out how to coax this style bow outta it one day
and this thread is making me itch to get at it
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Stiks-N-Strings on January 26, 2012, 10:56:32 pm
Pat I went 23" on a 47ntn. Be intersting to see if this one goes to 26 with sinew. Looking real sweet so far.
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Carson (CMB) on January 27, 2012, 12:36:07 am
I would sinew sooner than later.  The added sinew will bring the neutral layer closer to the back (more so on a wide-thin limb bow than narrow-thick limb bow, simply because you have a lot of sinew on there, and because the limbs are thinner, so percentage wise- you are moving the neutral layer more than adding sinew on a narrow-thick limb bow). So if you wait to add the sinew until after significant tillering, you have been training wood to become tension wood that will need to be compression wood once sinew is added. At least, that is the conclusion I came to laying awake in bed last night.
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: gstoneberg on January 27, 2012, 12:46:38 am
I sinew later than earlier.  Sinew is too much work to put on a piece of wood until I'm pretty sure it'll make a bow.  I'm never sure before I've bent it at least a little.

George
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Pat B on January 27, 2012, 01:01:45 am
CMB, that makes sense to me  :o somehow.  I've read about the neutral plane thing and sorta kinda know what they are taking about.  ;D   I think I'll set this bow up for sinewing as it is. I'm sure the sinew will draw up more as I remove belly wood later. I'm not in a rush at all with this bow. My intended draw weight is success!  ;)
  George, I have brought this bow to brace(about 1") and the string is dead center. From there she has been drawn to 17" so she knows my intentions!  ;)   There is a little prop twist but I'm  not gonna worry about that. The bend to 17" looks pretty good so I guess it is time to move on.
  Sadie, when I quit trying to learn it is time for me to dig that BIG hole!  ;) ...and I'm sure you will agree it's not quite time for that yet!  8)  I still have to build an Asiatic composit horn bow yet!  ::)
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Lee Slikkers on January 27, 2012, 01:19:47 am
I still have to build an Asiatic composit horn bow yet!  ::)

And I look forward to seeing you share a build on one of those Pat~
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Pat B on February 04, 2012, 03:06:20 pm
We have a nice rainy day today so I thought it would be a perfect time to begin the sinewing. I'm starting the process by adding grooves to the entire length of the bow from tip to tip with a toothing plane. I do this to give the hide glue a good purchase on the wood before I lay down the sinew. I will size the back with a coat or two of warm hide glue before I begin to lay down the sinew. After toothing the back I lightly sanded the back with 150 gt emory cloth to remove any loose shavings from the toothing. Here are a few pics of what I'm talking about. I will follow up with each upcoming process as they arise.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/sinewingthe47inchyewModoc003.jpg)

(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/sinewingthe47inchyewModoc002.jpg)

(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/sinewingthe47inchyewModoc005.jpg)

...more to come a little later...

 
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: criveraville on February 04, 2012, 03:34:58 pm
Thanks for sharing your process in great detail.

Cipriano
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: George Tsoukalas on February 04, 2012, 07:24:15 pm
Looks dood, Pat. I like your buildalongs too. Jawge
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Pat B on February 04, 2012, 07:25:48 pm
Thanks guys. I'll have a few more pics to add soon.
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Lee Slikkers on February 04, 2012, 10:22:18 pm
Hey Pat, where did you pick up that toothing blade?  I need to get one soon for a horn bow build I have been gathering some materials for...thanks!
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Pat B on February 05, 2012, 01:09:30 am
Lee, I bought the toothing plane years ago from 3Rivers. Rarely use it except for this kind of stuff.


 
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Pat B on February 05, 2012, 01:23:31 am
After toothing and sanding the bows back it was time to degrease. I wet the back with warm water then scrubbed to well with Dawn dish soap. To rinse the soap off I poured boiling water over the back. Here she is after her bath.  :-[ She is sitting on a bowl with the sinew hydrating in warm water. I previously washed the sinew with Dawn soap too.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/SinewingtheyewModoc005.jpg)

Heres how I prepared the hide glue. I use a crock pot as a double boiler with a stainless steel bowl inside with the glue in it...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/SinewingtheyewModoc003.jpg)

After a few minutes over the double boiler and with warm water added the glue chrystals begin to dissolve...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/SinewingtheyewModoc009.jpg)

Now I place the bow on the form with a sinew loop holding the handle down as the tips are raised on 2x4 blocks...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/SinewingtheyewModoc006.jpg)

(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/SinewingtheyewModoc007.jpg)

(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/SinewingtheyewModoc008.jpg)
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Pat B on February 05, 2012, 01:42:28 am
It is now time to size the bows back. You can see all of the glue chrystals have dissolved into this honey looking liquid...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/SinewingtheyewModoc012.jpg)

To size the back I use a foam paint brush, dip it in the glue and bursh it on. The wet bow back helps the glue sink into the wood. Here she is with one limb sized...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/SinewingtheyewModoc013.jpg)

After the sizing has gelled a bit it is time to start with the sinew. This is all back sinew. I took the sinew out of the water and seperated it into bundles that will be laid down on the bow. This is the top layer of two that are in this pan seperated by a damp paper towel...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/SinewingtheyewModoc011.jpg)

I started laying the sinew with the first bundle being centered at the handle. From there I went out each limb, keeping the sinew down the center of the limbs and over the nock to the belly side...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/SinewingtheyewModoc015.jpg)

(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/SinewingtheyewModoc014.jpg)

From there I laid the sinew bundles down along the center strip and over to the edge of the limbs...
 (http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/SinewingtheyewModoc016.jpg)

...and this is where she sit for now. I will check out the sinew layer in the morning under good natural light. If necessary I will fill in any bare or thin areas. After I have the sinew backing to my satisfaction I will let her rest where she sits for about a month. After that I will know if this is enough sinew or not.
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Traxx on February 05, 2012, 02:09:06 am
Lookin foreward to the progress of thisn.
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: jpitts on February 05, 2012, 02:41:21 am
I always like your buildalongs. I learn so much each time.
Thank you for sharing. Can't wait to see the next installment.
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: paulsemp on February 05, 2012, 05:13:39 am
I love the sinew tie to hold in a reflex. When cured just cut and sand out. Great idea!!!
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Dazv on February 05, 2012, 08:22:50 am
Man that stick is looking great so far please keep us updated.
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Pat B on February 05, 2012, 12:29:33 pm
Thanks guys. This has been a fun project so far.  Looking this morning there are a few thin spots that I need to add sinew to and after that it is the long sleep, at least a month before I check her out off the form.
  I still have quite a bit of tillering to do once the sinew cures. Before adding the sinew she was pulling 50#@17" I'm looking for 40#TO 50#@26" for final draw weight. At 47" t/t I not even sure I can get 26" draw. I guess we'll see.
  The sinew looks and feels dry but I know it is far from that. Here she is this morning...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/sinewingmodoc001.jpg)

(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/sinewingmodoc002.jpg)

(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/sinewingmodoc003.jpg)
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: toomanyknots on February 05, 2012, 02:22:16 pm
I also really like your form/sinew tie down method. That's really clever! The bow is looking great. Thanks for posting so many pictures, I can't wait to see it at fulldraw.
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Ifrit617 on February 05, 2012, 03:21:44 pm
Looking really good Pat... Can't wait to see it done.

Jon
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Del the cat on February 05, 2012, 03:35:04 pm
Blimey, that's V long sinew... did you get if of a Giraffe or something?
Del
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Pat B on February 05, 2012, 03:54:56 pm
Del, it is deer backstrap sinew. The bundles look longer than the strands are, some pulled long one way and some the other way. I can do a lot neater job with long sinew.  ;)
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: PeteC on February 05, 2012, 05:57:37 pm
That's lookin' real good Pat.Good build-along. Lookin' forward to the next issue. God Bless
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: jpitts on February 05, 2012, 07:03:15 pm
I've not done sinew backing yet. So you work from the center to the edge  and from the center to the tips?
Thanks for posting Pat
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Pat B on February 05, 2012, 08:25:22 pm
Jimmy, generally I wouldn't go all the way to the tips. I leave about 6" on each tip bare because ther are not working anyway and the sinew will abraid your string. This bow is my version of a Pacific Northwest Native paddle bow so I'm doing some things that they did and wrapping the sinew over the tip is one of those things. At this short length(47"t/t) I hope to use every bit of bend I can get to reach my 26" draw.
  Thanks Pete.
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: criveraville on February 06, 2012, 01:43:43 am
Pat it's going to be a long wait for us all.

Cipriano
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: jpitts on February 06, 2012, 02:23:56 am
Thanks for the insight Pat.
Yep...it's gonna be a long wait.
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Elktracker on February 06, 2012, 02:26:38 am
Great work!

Josh
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Carson (CMB) on February 06, 2012, 02:29:17 am
That is looking great Pat!  I think your step of washing the back with boiling water is a great step.  Like you said it leaves the back wet which gets the wood to really take up the glue. That toothed planer is pretty nifty for prepping the back for sinew too.  I have used some pretty glassy pumice and it worked very well, but left little tiny bits of rock that where not all removed in the degreasing step.
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Pat B on February 06, 2012, 11:02:03 am
Thanks guys. Yeah, it will be a long wait but worth it I think.  ;)
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Pappy on February 06, 2012, 11:07:51 am
Looking really good Pat, looking forward to see it finished up. :) :)
   Pappy
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Pat B on February 06, 2012, 11:42:29 am
I'll bring her to the Classic, Pappy. She might be ready to shoot by then.  ;)
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Gus on February 06, 2012, 02:19:29 pm
Pardon Sir,

Did you put two layers of sinew down on the bow?
Or was it just the sinew was separated into to groups to rehydrate in water?

Thank You!

-gus

Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Pat B on February 06, 2012, 02:33:42 pm
Gus, I basically put one layer of sinew down. It is about 4 or 5 backstraps worth. I did fill in a few thin or bare spots this morning. After it dries, in about a month, I'll take it off the form and see if she needs more. I still have to reduce the draw weight. It was 50#@17" before adding the sinew. My goal is 40# to 50# at 26".
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Keenan on February 06, 2012, 02:53:24 pm
Pat great sinew buildalong. You have that looking really good. Can't wait to see that after she sets up a while.
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Pat B on February 06, 2012, 06:49:44 pm
Keenan I just have to leave it alone for a while.  ::)  Thats hard for my pea brain to do sometimes.  ;D
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Stiks-N-Strings on February 17, 2012, 06:58:37 am
Looking good Pat. I learned alot about sinewing bow in that Adam Karpowitz book.
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Gus on February 17, 2012, 05:50:49 pm
Yes Sir!

Mr. Karpowitz book is an Excellent source of Good information.
And it's a pretty good read, even for a novice like me.
Think its time for me to reread it.
His work is just Amazing.
I have some Mulberry drying out with an Ottoman Turkish bow in mind... :)

-gus
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Pat B on April 01, 2012, 06:55:16 pm
Well, I did a little more work on this little paddle bow. The sinew(2 layers of back sinew) was added on Feb. 5 and it has rested since.  Today I began reducing weight and get her to a low brace where she is now. I don't think I could brace it any higher without reducing more weight. Apparently, these little paddle bow have to be braced over the top of the nock instead of sliding the string below the nock on the limb.
  Anyway she is pulling about 50#+ @20". I pulled her to 24" but she hit the wall right about there. I guess the tips aren't kicked up enough.  She is almost 65# at 24".
    My tillering now consists of a tillering stick with the bow pulled to 11" and I'm using Eric's tiller Gizmo and a scraper to even out the limbs a bit. Then I put her on the tiller tree and exercise her 20 to 30 pulls to 20". Here she is at low brace...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/yewpaddle001.jpg)

(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/yewpaddle002.jpg)
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Gordon on April 01, 2012, 07:13:13 pm
That's looking really good Pat.
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: criveraville on April 01, 2012, 11:57:32 pm
Looks to be a strong little bow ;)

Cipriano
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: osage outlaw on April 02, 2012, 01:02:58 am
Lookin' good Pat.  Why couldn't you slide the string loop up onto the tip when stringing it? 
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Keenan on April 02, 2012, 01:03:49 am
I've been wondering when that baby was going to grace the pages again. Looking great pat! Looks like she will be a fun little rocket launcher and great ambush bow! 50 lbs at 20' So probably 65-67 at 25"   :o :o  That would put a serious hurt on your elk! Or your shoulder ::)
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Pat B on April 02, 2012, 01:28:06 am
Its way too much for me to shoot now, Keenan. 45# to 50#@24 is what I was thinking.
  Clint, the limbs flare out only a few inches from the tips. The loop would have to be 4" long to get it to slide down these limbs.
  Thanks Gordon and Cipriano. I'll get a drawn pic up soon so you can really tell about her.
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: lesken2011 on April 02, 2012, 12:51:18 pm
Looks good, Pat. Don't know how I missed this thread before. I love those wide limb bows. I can't wait to see it finished.
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: coaster500 on April 02, 2012, 01:00:33 pm
Looks great, little speed demon in the works  >:D
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Pat B on April 06, 2012, 02:52:12 pm
I've got her bending a bit more now. I still need to reduce some more weight and get the tiller a bit better. In the first pic she is braced at about 5", then pulled to 20" and the last two pics(flipped) she is pulled to 24" on the tree and is about 55#@24" now.
 I took her out and shot about 12 times. She really spits an arrow but I'll need to get some lighter spined arrows(or longer) to get better bow clearance.
  Here are a few pics...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/yewpaddle001a.jpg)

(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/yewpaddle003a.jpg)

(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/yewpaddle004a.jpg)

(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/yewpaddle005a.jpg)
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Dauntless on April 06, 2012, 03:19:24 pm
Ooooooh boy that is a lot of bending for wood! Great job!
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Pat B on April 06, 2012, 03:22:33 pm
Looking at the string angle at the tips I think I can get her to 25" or maybe even 26" if she holds together. The 2 good layers of back sinew are what is holding her together...thank goodness!  ;D
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: gstoneberg on April 06, 2012, 04:17:32 pm
Great looking bend Pat!  Sinew is good stuff for short bows.

George
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Elktracker on April 06, 2012, 05:31:21 pm
Looking really good pat!



Josh
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Shaun on April 07, 2012, 01:05:39 am
Get that flat spot out of the left limb (about a third of the way in from the tip) and she'll come right around. Sweet arc for such a shorty.
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: criveraville on April 07, 2012, 01:25:27 am
That's a lot of bend Pat. I'm hoping she stays together too ;)

Cipriano
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Pat B on April 08, 2012, 04:45:31 pm
You just had to jinx her didn't you Cipriano.  ;)

Well, I was exercising her before removing some more weight when she went BOOM! She was on the tiller tree and I was pulling her to 20" to see where I needed to remove more wood to get the weight down when she went. I have to say I'm not all that surprised, disappointed yes but not surprised.  :(
 Anyway, I will remove the sinew and and do a post mortum to see if I can figure out what went wrong, other than trying to get too much pull for her length.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/yewpaddlegoesBOOM002.jpg)

(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/yewpaddlegoesBOOM001.jpg)

(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/yewpaddlegoesBOOM003.jpg)

(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/yewpaddlegoesBOOM004.jpg)

NEXT!!! ;D
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: osage outlaw on April 08, 2012, 04:49:52 pm
OH NO  :o   :(   :'( 

Sorry Pat
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: sadiejane on April 08, 2012, 05:56:22 pm
wow-thats a shame pat
thought with the sinew it would hold up at longer pull than that.
sorry man....
would like to know what you decide happened.
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Arrowind on April 08, 2012, 07:54:20 pm
Reminds me of my last bow...  Sorry man. My heart sank when I saw this.  That bow was looking so GOOD!
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Steve Milbocker on April 08, 2012, 11:15:26 pm
That pic made me feel sick and the bow isn't even mine. Sorry Pat.
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: bubby on April 08, 2012, 11:28:45 pm
sorry Pat, but that just shows that even the greats break bows, Bub
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Carson (CMB) on April 08, 2012, 11:42:27 pm
Nooo! I just saw this thread for the first time since that bow went a way to dry.  My heart dropped too, when I scrolled down to the pic.  I am sorry pat.  :'(   
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Pat B on April 08, 2012, 11:58:25 pm
After thinking about it for a while and then studying the break I think she broke in tension, ripping the sinew when it went. I made sure when I layed the sinew to cover the handle, fades and out to the limb well because that is where a lot of the stress is. The break initiated(from what I can tell)at the crown on the bottom limb about 5 1/4" from the center of the bow which puts it 3 1/2" from the handle. This bow was to bend in the handle at full draw so I left the handle area a little thicker. I should not have done that! It only concentrated those stresses to a smaller area and the bow gave where the limbs were fading into the handle, side to side and back to belly. I created a weak spot right at the fades. Looking at the last pic I posted of the bow drawn at 24" the left limb is the one that broke in the third pic and the right in the forth. It looks stiff right off the handle and and it probably hinged right there causing the back to fail.
 The bow was at 20" when she blew. I was exercising her after doing a little weight reduction scraping on the belly. I had also thinned(belly side only) one side of the fade on the failed limb side but all I did was rasp then scrape a little to shape the fade more evenly. I guess that also might have "given" just a little more and in wood bows, "just a little more" can be deadly!  :(
  I'm sad this bow went. It was my shortest so far and I was pushing her to see how far she would go. I will do different next time.    ...and thank goodness for the tiller tree. I don't even want to think about if I were holding it in my hand or working with a tiller stick.
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Keenan on April 09, 2012, 12:15:06 am
Bummer Pat. I feel your pain. You had that baby looking really good. As you said she was definitely a shorty. I think your analysis is probably right on.. On them shorties that bend through the handle is critical.  On a good note I know where you can get some more, Pushing the limits is how we learn the thresholds
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Gordon on April 09, 2012, 12:19:51 am
Making a bow bend through a narrow transition like that is tricky business - especially with those big paddles further out. I've not attempted that design for that reason - you are braver than I am.
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Pat B on April 09, 2012, 12:26:24 am
Keenan, I'm totally blown away how little wood she had in her and she was pulling in the mid 50s @24".
  I've already been thinking about the next one. Some of the sinew on this bow was recovered from Elkie when she kept rejecting it. I soaked it off and saved it. I will do the same with this sinew. Maybe the third time will be the charm.  ;)  I'll call the next one "Patches".  ;D

  I think I'll make an atlatl out of the remaining handle and good limb. I've never made one of them before!  ;D

Ignorance is bliss, Gordon.  ;) I realized that about bending through a narrowing section was a no no...after I examined the break.  ::)     Hopefully I learned from my mistake.
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Gus on April 09, 2012, 01:39:23 am
Dang it Sir!

Sorry to see her fail to make a bow.

-gus
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Pat B on April 09, 2012, 01:48:21 am
She was a bow Gus. She just didn't like the way I treated her.  ::)
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Gordon on April 09, 2012, 03:15:06 am
You still get major credit for attempting it. I've seen pictures of these kind of bows so I know it can be done - I've just been too timid to try this design.
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: lesken2011 on April 09, 2012, 10:09:27 am
Sorry to see that, Pat. I really appreciate you guys posting the failures, though. It makes the novices like me not feel quite so bad about ours. Oh....and we really like looking at the successes as well, for sure.
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Josh on April 09, 2012, 11:56:45 am
Sorry Pat!
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Elktracker on April 09, 2012, 01:24:19 pm
Sorry about that pat  :-\ look forward to seeing your next bow of this style finished up and shooting!

Josh
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: coaster500 on April 09, 2012, 06:09:27 pm
Sorry Pat...  I was looking forward to hearing how the little guy flung an arrow :(
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Catahoula on April 09, 2012, 07:05:00 pm
Pat...been off doodling and came back to this tread to find that the little paddle bow didn't make it.  I sure do appreciate your teaching through this bow though!  Guess I will have to just "man up" and go pull on that iron wood stave...

Rand
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: George Tsoukalas on April 09, 2012, 07:49:44 pm
Pat, sorry about that but we have learned to love the process after all these years. Jawge
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: gstoneberg on April 09, 2012, 09:25:43 pm
Dang Pat, that's too bad, especially after the work of putting on sinew.   Good luck with the next one.

George
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Pat B on April 10, 2012, 01:23:10 am
If you take your broken bows and throw them on the fire or the brush pile you loose. If you study that break and find out why and how you come out a winner.  8) I prefer the latter.
  George, you are absolutely right. I enjoyed the process of building this bow very much. Learned a lot too! The process that got me here today has been a thrill also.
Lesken, that is what PA is all about...Passing on the Tradition of Classical Archery!  8)   We all break bows if we are building them. Why not show the failures. If we can learn from them they are not failures.
 
Title: Re: Winter project #2
Post by: Buckeye Guy on April 10, 2012, 02:14:12 pm
Impressive ,you have used the same sinew on what three bows now that have broken, and you have not yet blamed the sinew !