Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Flintknapping => Topic started by: iowabow on January 22, 2012, 02:23:50 pm
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Well notching was the last thing I learned last year when making points. I made a lot of points and did not notch them. I used scrap flakes to practice on then notched my points. My hunting points are fast notched using the same basic moves but with wider tools. I am not careful when making hunting points. If I want to make a nice notch this is how I do it. The following is very time consuming but makes amazing notches. By the way some of the best notching on this website is done by Tower. If you want to see amazing notch work and are new you really should read his post.
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First thing I do is make a plan. So how are you going to notch the point you just made. If you are new I would side notch because it is the easies way to notch. There many ways to notch but I will only cover one. I think if you are new you are making points to hunt with and the side notch design is strong if you don't make the notch to deep. So begin by penciling in your idea (taught to me by sawfiler) by drawing a line across the stone where your notches are going to be. NOTE I work both notches at the same time all the time but don't during this demo because it would be too confusing to do so. I work on both because it help to keep them lined up.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-22102708.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-22102826.jpg)
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The picture above is where I am going to begin but I am going to remove very very small flakes at first because the platfrom is small and because I want to remove a small amount of material. If the notch is to be small then a small amount needs to be removed. Look closely and you can see a very small flake then in the next photo you can see that I removed the corner of the notch that I have started. Things are very small at this point and you can not see me removing corners until my last few post where the image is large enough to see what am talking about.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-22102920.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-22103010-1.jpg)
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I am not abrading as I go. I abrade only if things don't look right. The follow photo will be grouped be individual post. Each post will be a flip of the stone as I am working it. I hope that is not confussing.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-22103045.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-22103109.jpg)
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I continue flipping and removing three flake but at times the flake removal if kinda like grinding because the flake breaks into many part in the beginning. As I start moving into the stone I add more pressure to remove larger flakes.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-22103149.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-22103224.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-22103301.jpg)
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Now things are going good so watch out that you don't knock off the sides of the notch with the tool's edge.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-22103320.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-22103407.jpg)
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If you have made it this far your doing great. Start looking at the platform very closely. You may need to remove two flakes in order to set the flatform right (I did not need to do this while working the stone but it is not uncommon). Do not remove a flake from this point forward without taking the corners out or checking the platform or looking at your tool. Look at the tool before you apply pressure to check that it is not going to hit the edge of the work.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-22103407.jpg)
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When good things are happening
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-22103602.jpg)
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It is nice to see the notch as wide as the tool and clean removal of material. These flake are coming off nice because the corner are knocked out and that prevents mistakes and directs the flake to the inside not the edges.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-22103703.jpg)
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Repeat what works and don't get creative.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-22103806.jpg)
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Good to see this!
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-22103915.jpg)
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This was what I wanted to show you because now the cornor notches can be seen clearly. In the second and third photo.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-22103945.jpg)
In this photo you can see two lines leaving the notch in a Y shape. These need to be removed or they will contribute to the ear and tabs damage. Now more than ever go slow the tool will do damage. If you just made the point you should not be notching because you are tired and it is easy to make mistakes and get in a hurry. Set the stone down and take a break before you continue. When you start again remind yourself of the three goals 1 platform 2 cornors 3 watch that tool.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-22104007.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-22104031.jpg)
Now this photo show the corners removed.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-22104055.jpg)
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Ok I am taking a break and this should work to explain how to notch. Folks let me know it this helps or if you need more photos of something.
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Looking good thanks for posting, your notching tool looks interesting :D
Josh
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I saw one this on this website and made one.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-22123539.jpg)
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Cool I think I have all that stuff laying around ;D might give one a try. Whats the wood for?
Josh
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The wood goes inside to push the horse shoe nail forward.
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Ok gotcha thanks
Josh
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Thanks John. Great pictures and descriptions. The only problem is that this is exactly how I try to do it now. As usual, the problem is not so much knowing what to do, it is executing it. :-[ I do see a difference in the tool. Mine is thinner and is a flattened ice pick so it looks like a very thin screw driver, though I have rounded the edges. So, when I've started my notch it is very thin (but not for long normally). I typically snap off the corner trying to restart a stalled notch. That's definitely what happened in that last one I posted. So, I think my problem is more platform preparation in the notching.
I do want to go down and visit Tower. I need to be making a bunch of un-notched points in preparation. :)
George
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Shannon showed me a great way to restart stalled notches with a punch. I will try to find the nail that I made and demo that process. Hey Shannon if you are reading this could you post a picture of that nail punch. Anyone that has a punch should post it also a diamond file works great. I very rarely grab the file because I work hard on the platform thing.
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And the actual notching point is made of?
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Great thread. Love the detailed explanation & photos. Pertty neat way to hold the horseshoe nail. Many thanks again for the point.
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All right, I went out and tried John. I stalled one notch on the second flake. On the other side, I blew it out on the third flake. Good grief.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7144/6746119049_d4d076064b_z.jpg)
It was big enough to salvage.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7005/6746120835_af8ebe3c1a_z.jpg)
Notching is so frustrating.
George
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George, I have the same problem. I always stall them, I am starting to wonder if it has somthing to do with how thin you get the point............. ???
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yep, the thinner the better when your notching, Bub
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I think you have good notches for what you started with. You can still work them a little more narrow I think. I would say prep the platform real good take a small stone and abrade it. The reason why is because the thicker stone will require more pressure and therefore will want to collapse. A stall is the result of a crushed platform on both side. A platform collapses because it is to weak. I will try to post pictures of a thicker point but the notches will be a little wider but should not blow out the sides. The notch on the right deep in the notch looks sharp and would need to be harden before I could remove a flake from it. The notch on the left deep in the notch and on the edge has flattened and so the platform is not good. Pressure from the otherside would remove very small flakes and help abrade the platform so that a good flake could be removed with adequate pressure.
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My experience is that, the tougher the stone the wider the notch. If i wanna make narrow notches I first must have a thin point that is flaking easily. Of course as I get better, i should have better resukts on harder, thicker rock. But as a beginner my struggle usually centered around tool control due to needing too much pressure. Once I started heating my own rock and consistently getting easier working rock I noticed my flaking improve and my notches are getting narrower.
George, your notch looks fine, but I would widen it a little at the start. Another thing is the tool you are using might be sliding off the edge and causing your notch to stall. Try a softer nail (horseshoe nail) or flattened copper nail. JMO
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OK, thanks you guys. That ice pick is pretty hard, I had to hammer the tar out of it to get it flat enough to use. I do know that thinner points are much easier to notch. This point fought me bad, and there's a hump just lower than mid-point that I could not get out. A flake absolutely would not run there. Consequently, the point is heavy at 159gr. The base, however it about the thickness I usually get, though I could have made an additional pass and thinned it more.
John (and others), I need you to show how platforms are set up while notching. I have no idea how to adjust a platform once I have the notch started, or what tool you'd use in there.
Thanks,
George
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OK let's talk tools. I have a lot of pressure flakers so I can change or replace tips and never have to stop and sharpen one during a sitting. The copper is from grounding wire and is twisted to harden it. The tips are hammered to harden and sharpen. The following photos show the tools replacement tips and how I make then the exact Length.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-23144815.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-23144852.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-23144950.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-23145031.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-23145109.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-23145129.jpg)
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I use the copper to make my hunting points. The horse shoe anil I use for real detailed work. The following are photo the will show you how I work thicker stuff but first I have to go to the garage and work some scrap as a demo.
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OK I took a pile of pictures I am going to load them all but without writing because it will take forever. I happened to find a blank that I never got back to finishing back in the day. It is very thick and should be a good example how to notch thick work. In the end I shaped the right side and base so you could see how the notch would look finished. I want to leave the otherside unfinished to remember the past. I also put pencil lines down so you could see material being removed.
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(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-23151239.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-23151246.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-23151315.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-23151325.jpg)
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(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-23151403.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-23151428.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-23151451.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-23151511.jpg)
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(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-23151511.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-23151652.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-23154835.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-23154931.jpg)
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(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-23155125.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-23155158.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-23155244.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-23155325.jpg)
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(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-23155342.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-23155432.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-23155455.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-23155547.jpg)
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(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-23155602.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-23155629.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-23155749.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-23155842.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-23160139.jpg)
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(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-23160146.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-23160556.jpg)
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Well that's it for the photos. Hope it helps.
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Thanks John. Nice pictures. I'm impressed that you notched a point that thick. I don't think it's working though. I went out tonight and tried again. First I made a copper notching tool. Then, I made a small point which turned out pretty bad. I blew out one side and stalled the other.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7008/6752775715_77a3d4b8d6_z.jpg)
So, got disgusted and picked up a long, thin piece of coral from Eddie that I'd given up on because I'd made it so narrow without getting it thin. Surprisingly, thinning went great and I like it a lot. I decided to make real shallow side nocks and good thing since I stalled one right away. I'm a lost cause John. Hopefully in time I'll figure it out.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7029/6752776319_d01f452514_z.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7158/6752776943_1f1a98293e_z.jpg)
Now I'll stop posting pictures in your excellent thread. Thanks for trying.
George
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Awesome Thread iowabow!!!
Thank You for your time and effort to help the hapless (me)... ::)
Good Grief George!!!
That Coral Point is Beautiful!!!
You have come a Long Way from the middle of last year.
Your flake scars and symmetry are goals I would love to attain in my sorry rubble factory!
I have faith that you will figure out your notching style!
-gus
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By god I think you got and you don't even know it! Look at the top point and focus on the right notch it is perfect. The only thing I would change is lighter pressure on the first couple of flakes. This will keep the point from breaking at the bottom. Also I think that this leaves one technique left that we have not covered and it is the angle of the tool. I will post a couple of pictures to cover this maybe a video might work better. I will think about it today and post it tonight. Your notching is going to get better and better as your pieces get thinner. If a notch stalls try picking at the corner to remove small flakes to start it again. It will also be helpful if you go and buy a diamond file at this point to restart the notch. This will help you understand how to restart them with the pressure flaker. Sometimes I keep trying like ten times by sharpen and changing tool shapes. I will at times push real hard to make a tool dent to the shape of the texture on the platform to give it more surface area. Shannon told me that the dust from abrading will help create friction also. Please do not stop posting your attempts it helps everyone learn and you are getting much better. I would guess in three weeks this will all be in the past and you will be helping others figure it out.
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Yes yes, tool position pictures or a video would be very helpful. I'll go out and get a diamond file at lunchtime. Thanks again for the help.
George
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well done john. from grasshopper to master in a year. ;D
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well done john. from grasshopper to master in a year. ;D
That is funny! Well I worked last night making the blank for the video and still have a little shaping to do tonight.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-25080632.jpg)
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It was raining so hard last night that I didn't want to deal with the noise off the metal roof in the shop and didn't do a thing. It has been raining ever since about 10pm. The pool is overflowing and the back yard is a lake. Thank God, we were sooooooo dry. Hope it fills lake Lavon back up.
George
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I have been working to make matched points so I have this one ready to notch. My wife did not want to video for me while I knap so I am teching my 11 year old to do it.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-25162555.jpg)
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OK I made the video but I have to wait till morning before I can get to a place to up load it. Here is a picture of the point. Remember it is a hunting point so the notches are not deep. In the video I am being real careful so I am slowly adding more and more pressure so you will see a lot of pressure flaking with no flakes releasing at times and at other times I am abrading with the tool.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-25174841.jpg)
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I have been trying to make a matched set of hunting points for next year and was surprised by what I saw this morning after finishing my notching so I thought I would share these pictures.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-26073614.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-26073711.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-26074320.jpg)
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ok here are the links to the videos, there are three in all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIoy5yLklm8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIoy5yLklm8)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT_xEFuDQt0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rT_xEFuDQt0)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umPS6JLXuMs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umPS6JLXuMs)
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Wow, 2 points, different rock, same shape, identical weights! Nothing wrong with your ability to reproduce a point, that's for sure. Very nice.
Hmm, watching the videos was interesting. A couple things jump out at me right away. First, your point is half the thickness and quite a bit wider than mine typically are. Second, I'm pushing much harder on the point than you. Perhaps those 2 are related? I did try to use the notching tool to abrade and alter the platform on one point and the notch stalled right there instantly. I'll have to work on that. I've been depending on the previous flake to have moved the edge below centerline. When it doesn't the notch stalls. I think I'll make a second notching tool of a more rectangular shape. I'm not sure the shape of mine is optimum. I'll take some debitage and do some practice notching again.
I have a set of diamond needle files on order, couldn't find any locally.
Thanks again John,
George
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I've got a long way to go...
-gus
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Nothing wrong with that one. Take it hunting Gus.
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I agree Gus, that'll work. If you have time when you're up here we can make some gravel before you head home.
George
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That point looks good, keep making more. The points I first started hunting with looked a lot like that one and your looks a lot better than a lot of native points I own.
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Thank You Fells...
I've been watching and trying to learn... :)
Just finished a steel notcher, (after this point was done of course...) made from a 1800's ventage square nail this evening.
Seems to be pretty good, had some success notching another chunk of that Agate.
George, sounds good to me.
I'm Making a solo trip up that way this time, so time shouldn't be so tight.
The Family is staying home this go round.
Something about me leaving them to their own designs at my Uncle's place while I go "RUN-N-OFT" wood cutting...
Needless to say, I'm really looking forward to it.
The Wood Cutting, that is... ::)
-gus
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Well, my notching is one step forward and 2 steps back it seems. I knocked these 2 out last night, didn't do well on my thinning and stalled the notches in both. Had to scramble to get something usable in both of them. Actually notched the larger point with indirect percussion, it was really hard stone.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7158/6793657917_7cdaba09ab_z.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7154/6793658447_fc926a8cf1_z.jpg)
Thankfully, I think they'll be good hunting points. The smaller one on the left is 130gr and the larger is 137gr. On a good note, that larger point was solid coretex on one side and very thin. For a change I was able to run flakes far enough to get it all off. Wasn't able to thin the base well on either point though. I think that's a lot of my problem with notching.
George
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I would be proud of both and both would take deer. You do keep getting better but not all points are going to be great. Even the best knappers have points they are not happy with. The one on the right has good notches and if it were mine I would not want them any deeper because it makes them weak. I make mine stall out so they don't cut my sinew. If I were making a different style I would use a different technique than you saw in the video. In the video I make the notch just wide enough to go in just deep enough. The thicker the stone the wider I have to make a notch to get it to be deep. Kinda like a ratio in my head. I have arrowheads made from native people that are very thick and the notches are real wide. I think in 2 weeks you will be real good at the notching thing. Keep burning up the scrap with notches. I think I saw tower post a picture once of a flake just covered with notch practice.
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Your points are better than these natives.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-31071359.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-01-31071420.jpg)
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Good point, perspective is everything. Having copper and steel tools is an advantage as well. I never have to stall my notches though, they seem to take care of that on their own. I do need to practice more, but I get bored doing it real quick. I can do about one debitage flake worth of notches and then I start a point. I'll keep at it. Thanks for the help.
George
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I went to the shop and chipped out 2 more points tonight. Also did one flakes worth of notching practice, but it didn't go well. I broke the flake twice. Fortunately, I didn't break either point. The first one went well, but it came out larger and thicker than I'd have liked. It has a little concrete in the point that fought me all the way. In the end it weighed in at almost 180 gr. It's a biggie. If I want to hunt with it I'll have to knock off the base and renotch it to get the weight down. Then, I picked up a piece of debitage and knocked out a little point under 70gr. Didn't get the symmetry right, didn't notice it until I saw the picture. Interestingly, the base is as wide as the sides.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7029/6798839055_223f7019cd_z.jpg)
The notches are still weak, but I'm not stressing over it. Here's this weeks points so far. Fun time.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7164/6798839481_ecd71950bb_z.jpg)
George
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180 grn. 40 lbs & 20 yds = lethal pass! W/ a well placed shot. Great points. Debitage can be boring , but it helps me to notch. Try differant approaches, into, straight down, pull down, into & down. It all helps me. Side to side then down,& down then side to side. Thin thick try it all. Knap-on!
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Hey those look good! Nice work could easily take game with those.