Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Pretzelcoatl on March 13, 2012, 12:46:39 am
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Iv'e always heard people calling themselves that but it wasn't until now that i was wondering.
At what point of your bow making career do you stop being a regular person, and become one
who has mastered this ancient art.
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A bowyer is someone how is still learning the ways of bending wood..One never masters this..the wood is always the master. ;) ;)I've built a lot of bows and have yet to call myself a bowyer..although I suppose I am ;D ;D
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I dont believe You can truly be a master of anything. The word master implies that you know all there is to know about a given subject and to the best of my knowledge, there has never been anyone who knew everything about something, except of course, for God. I would say there are two catagories of bowyers, beginners and experienced beginners.
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I kinda think if it in the old European Guild system. At first you are apprenticed and all your work is under someone else's watchful eye. Then you do a few on your own but still ask others for their help until you start turning them out pretty easily, journeyman in the craft. But then comes the day you do a bow start to finish without assistance or having to ask questions. You look at the bow when you are done and you feel some honest degree of satisfaction. At that point you are a Bowyer, you can look at different bow designs and you can figure out how to reproduce them. As a Master you still make plenty of mistakes, but by now you have a whole library of ideas of how to fix those problems before it ruins the bow.
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Y'all are makin too much of this. I agree with Webster:
bow·yer [boh-yer]
noun
a maker or seller of archers' bows.
Once you've made a bow, by definition you are a bowyer. Doesn't make you a master, but it does make you a bowyer.
George
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I agree with George. Once you can fashion a bow from beginning to end you are, by definition, a bowyer.
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I agree with JW. I was taught a long time ago by a Journeyman sign painter (and it applies to this I believe) that the difference between an apprentice and a journeyman (or an amateur and a professional) is the journeyman knows how to fix his f%&*-ups.
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I kinda think if it in the old European Guild system. At first you are apprenticed and all your work is under someone else's watchful eye. Then you do a few on your own but still ask others for their help until you start turning them out pretty easily, journeyman in the craft. But then comes the day you do a bow start to finish without assistance or having to ask questions. You look at the bow when you are done and you feel some honest degree of satisfaction. At that point you are a Bowyer, you can look at different bow designs and you can figure out how to reproduce them. As a Master you still make plenty of mistakes, but by now you have a whole library of ideas of how to fix those problems before it ruins the bow.
Agreed.
To make a bow all you have to do is cut a branch off a tree and tie a string to both ends then move your hand up and down until you have a balanced asymmetrical bow. No real skill in that. I've taught a 6 year old - so by definition is he a bowyer....? Maybe but....can he make any bow?
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I don't really like labels, but i figure your a bowyer when somebody calls you one, Bub
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All I know is I have been building bows for over 40 years and I ain't one !!
So some one please let me know the right answer !!
Guy
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Im pretty sure we ALL know the obvious answer to this question. We have plenty of grading scales to use if thats your flavor.
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I agree with George..... after you make your first successful bow. A good bowyer learns how to fix his mistakes....a master doesn't make any mistakes to fix. Every bow I've made has some sort of issue that was due to my error. Successful, but not flawless
Jon
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When an arrow passes through a bow you made with your own 2 hands. Then your a bowyers. Don't matter the skill level. Bad tiller? Doesn't matter. If its wood/horn and it bends and shoots a stick with some feathers on it. It's a bow ;D
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My dad told me I was getting to be a pretty good bowyer the other day. I told him that I didn't feel like a bowyer yet, and he said that anyone who can take sticks and strings and make a functional weapon from it is a bowyer. I even asked him about kids making branch bows, and he said " not toys. Real, functional, beautiful weapons." he also reminded me that compared to the other 99% of the people on the planet, bowyers make bows.
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I began calling myself a bowyer after I became confident in my bows. That was right about the time I also learned making bows was not a race to see how fast I could get one built. ;) At that point I'd been building bows fro probably almost 20 years. I've seen folks here on PA that were bowyers with their first attempt. ::)
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Quit picking on me Pat!
I suppose since I have a set of sockets and a rachet I must be a mechanic then? SWEET!
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Only if you can properly use them, Pearlie! ;)
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I would like to believe that once you make a functioning bow like jtbluefeather's father said, then you are technically a bowyer, then there is the the experience,skill, and quality of bows you produce that show the degree of a bowyer you are. In my opinion one never stops learning in life and if you take these lessons and apply them wisely you will never stop growing in you mastery in the art of bowyery.
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I will call myself a bowyer, when someone I consider a bowyer calls me that. Until that time, I am a bow maker.
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it's alot like Martial Arts, people think that when your a black belt you know it all, but it's really just a belt and the learning continues as long as you let it, Bub
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I have to agree with Pat, it's a confidence thing. Prior to 2009, I posted here as "Brokestick" because that described my first half dozen attempts. When the forums were migrated and I lost my profile, I chose a different name since I wasn't breaking them anymore, but I still wouldn't call myself a bowyer. I began thinking of myself as a bowyer when I no longer had to consult the books and look for layouts and dimensions to design a bow. That's when I knew that the basic principles were ingrained in my memory and I had the confidence to come up with my own designs.
The apprentice-journeyman-master progression was not available to most of us in the modern world of bowyery. This forum has grown tremendously since I first came upon it nine years ago and there are a lot more opportunities for that to occur today. I learned everything from the magazine, the TBBs and this forum and never had the opportunity to study directly under someone with far greater experience. It's also my belief, that in the medeival bowyer's guild, you would have spent your life becoming the master of the one particular style of bow, made from the particular wood, that was endemic to your particular time and place. You would have learned THE WAY to make A BOW because there was only one right way to make a bow. Those were still the prevailing thoughts when Paul Comstock published "The Bent Stick".
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i guess i am a bowyer,just not a good one yet.
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it's alot like Martial Arts, people think that when your a black belt you know it all, but it's really just a belt and the learning continues as long as you let it, Bub
As a black belt I can certainly agree with this.... Once you get that rank you are just starting to get past the beginner stage on your journey... Unfortunately to many see it as an end point and not a beginning...
Jon
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"It's also my belief, that in the medeival bowyer's guild, you would have spent your life becoming the master of the one particular style of bow, made from the particular wood, that was endemic to your particular time and place."
I really think someone could go from virgin to so-called master bowyer when it comes to longbows/warbows in maybe 2 or 3 days. Maybe 4 or 5 bows. It just isn't that complicated... (...of course, this is just my opinion guys.) Laminates get a bit more tricky I guess. The hardest thing is learning to be satisfied with your own abilities and creations. (This is how I have come to think anyhow, but I don't wanna talk to big to back up nothin, I have only been bending wood for about 4 years where half the people on here have been bowyer-ing for 10 times that, LOL. Ever other day I have to ask a newbie question so keep that in mind yall.) Tillering should really only take like 4 or 5 bows to get down. Heat/steam correcting ain't no science. You wanna talk about about a master, try building a guitar, with the inlay rosette made from maybe 50 - 100 layers of wood, tuning the top to the back piece, measuring the top to the exact thickness to create the desired resonance. Those guys are amazing. I could never do that. I can barely make a stick shoot another stick.
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The minute my wife walks out the door... :)
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The minute my wife walks out the door... :)
LOL!!! Best answer so far.
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When do you start calling yourself a bowyer? When you know someone is listening and don't mind getting the immediate response, "Can you make me one then? ;D"
I call myself a bowyer only when I know no one is listening. >:D
Edit: Hmmm... when my wife is around I have to call myself a bowyer so that I can sound like I'm not wasting my time. heheh
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I think it is when it gets into you blood. For me shortly after the first bow acutally worked. Since then I can see a piece of wood without thinking of what I can make of it.
Jamie
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I've had people describe me as an artist when referring to my bows. I ALWAYS correct them. I can teach pert' near any able bodied chimpanzee to make decent shooting bows. But there isn't an artist alive (or dead for that matter) that can teach me to paint a picture that would move someone on a deep emotional level.
I'm an artisan, not an artist.
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I've had people describe me as an artist when referring to my bows. I ALWAYS correct them. I can teach pert' near any able bodied chimpanzee to make decent shooting bows. But there isn't an artist alive (or dead for that matter) that can teach me to paint a picture that would move someone on a deep emotional level.
I'm an artisan, not an artist.
That's a good distinction to make JW. There are so few artisans left that people don't know the difference anymore.
Julian
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Yeah, JW bow building is a craft, not art. There are folks that have made art out of their bows but most of us make tools. Just the bend of a bow could be considered art but it takes a craftsman to achieve that bend. Also, like Jude says, there are so few artisans left we've gotta keep it going.
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When you start looking at trees the way you used to look at pretty ladies ::).
Del
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That's called getting old Del. ;) ;D Don't know the answer,not sure their is one that folks will agree on, kind of like Seasoned v Dry or heat v no heat or Hand tools v power tools, and I can go on and on, all I know for sure is I make wood bows. ;) :) :)
Pappy
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Pappy, I started to hit the 'like' button after I read your post, then realized I wasn't on Facebook...guess I need to spend more time working on bows and less time at the computer ::)
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Will ya look at the hedgeapples on that beauty eh Del....? ;D
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Maybe we should come out with a test and see how we rank.
Knowledge of where to find various wood species, Wood selection, wood identification, curing wood, manipulating wood.
Mastery of the various tools we use, both hand and power as well as culls, steamers forms etc.
Knowledge of how to maintain these tools.
Ability to build an efficient bow of virtually any draw weight, draw length, and style, from any acceptable bow wood. Or simply list the styles and draw weights range you are comfortable in.
Have a reasonable knowledge of the theory involved in bows and how to apply it in a wide variety of scenarios.
Have a reasonable knowledge of the working properties of wood and other materials we use.
Finishing tecniques and knowledge of how to use various finishes.
Skilled in leather working and handle work.
Setting up and tuning a bow.
Trouble shooting and repairing shooting issues, handshock, torquing, etc.
String making.
Their are probably several items I missed but you get the idea. The more areas we qualified in the more complete we would be as bowyers, if we bought seasoned staves, and made beautiful good shooting bows of only one style we would still be bowyers.
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TEST? AAAARRGGGGHHHH.
In one word you've probably summed up why many of us enjoy making bows.
No paperwork,
no tests,
no compulsory registration to 'authorised bodies',
no auditing,
no management,
no budgets, timescales, interminable meetings, risk assesments etc...
Don't think I need to carry on do I?
Del
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I think you have become a bowyer when you know the word is not spelled "boyer". :) Jawge
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Maybe we should come out with a test and see how we rank.
Knowledge of where to find various wood species, Wood selection, wood identification, curing wood, manipulating wood.
Mastery of the various tools we use, both hand and power as well as culls, steamers forms etc.
Knowledge of how to maintain these tools.
Ability to build an efficient bow of virtually any draw weight, draw length, and style, from any acceptable bow wood. Or simply list the styles and draw weights range you are comfortable in.
Have a reasonable knowledge of the theory involved in bows and how to apply it in a wide variety of scenarios.
Have a reasonable knowledge of the working properties of wood and other materials we use.
Finishing tecniques and knowledge of how to use various finishes.
Skilled in leather working and handle work.
Setting up and tuning a bow.
Trouble shooting and repairing shooting issues, handshock, torquing, etc.
String making.
Their are probably several items I missed but you get the idea. The more areas we qualified in the more complete we would be as bowyers, if we bought seasoned staves, and made beautiful good shooting bows of only one style we would still be bowyers.
Could not make a string if my life depended on it!
I would call my self a bowyer simply because I like making bows and as far as the dictionary goes a bowyer is someone who makes bows :) We are all just a bunch of wood worriers in my book ;)
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:o
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I don't call myself a bowyer, but there are those around me that do. Actually they don't know to use the word, but when I get introduced to someones I don't know, alot of my friends introduce me as Danbow. They say" he makes bows". I would say that if men that I respect, that know the craft( like you guys) consider me a bowyer, then I must be one. Now to what level of skill I have attained, that is a different differientiation. I would consider myself to be border line apprentice-Journeyman. Probabley closer to apprentice in that I have restricted myself to just a couple designs. I harvest my own wood, cure and store it properly, have made most with hand tools. I seem to tiller reasonabley well, and the finished product is a combination of an effective weapon as well as something that is pleasing to the eye. I still find myself avoiding my staves that possess more troubles than my pea brain can handle, so I think like I said before I'm probabley more of an apprentice still, although I don't find myself asking near as many questions as I once did. Danny
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This is an interesting topic. None of us had access to bowyers 25 years ago. We taught ourselves and each other, sometimes face to face and sometimes via the internet. Many different skills were brought to the table as this skill has reimerged. We all shared what skills or aptitudes we had to offer and the net result is that we are seeing some dam good bows comming out . Mechanics, masons, carpenters, plumbers, writers, Dr's, metal workers etc all serve apprentices of sorts before they can call them selves journeymen or masters. I feel the same way about bowyers, it is a true craft requiring a lot of knowledge to be well rounded even though most anybody can make a bow with just a little instruction.
I would not object or find it offensive in anyway if a guild were established with a set criteria needed to establish oneself as a master bowyer. Maybe something like 75% to 80% success in say 80% of stipulated areas to qualify. I don't believe in throwing titles around loosely, some of us have worked too dam hard to attain the one or ones we do have. I am a mechanic who makes bows as a hobby, I am now retired and would enjoy attaining my master bowyers certificate through the guild! Steve
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I would not object or find it offensive in anyway if a guild were established with a set criteria needed to establish oneself as a master bowyer.
Well in there kinda already is:
http://www.bowyers.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=185&Itemid=318
Just some thoughts...
...I would personally hate for a bunch of people to get together and decide a bunch of "rules" just to be able to tell everyone what to do. If your selling a bunch of bows, commercially, than there is a good reason to teach some other guys your craft, which would be to have them help you out and help make $. Because it would be your craft, in the days of guilds, and not your hobby. Like it is today for framers or plumbers. I would guess most people nowadays get into making traditional bows out of the love of it, and not for the need to make bread from it. The need for rank in carpentry and plumbing and other trades are needed, or else our houses would be fallin down on us when the new guys get signed on and decide they don't need those extra storm braces, or feel like puttin em on upside down instead of concentrating on picking up trash like they're supposed to. ( >:D >:D >:D) Now if anyone wants to show me how to make 300 - 350 a week just startin out from bowyer-ing like you can in carpentry, sign me up for an apprenticeship! :laugh: These bows used to be an essential need, like when a mechanic fixed your car, and your car is an essential need of life nowadays. A bowyer was probably a respected craftsmen or trade in that day, compared to today where if I said all I did was "play with my wood" all day, my wife would tell me to go get a job! In the days of "bowyers" and "bowyers guilds" bows were mass produced military weapons designed to kill your enemy from as far away as possible. Now they are lower draw weight hunting and target bows, made mostly by the people who get the most joy out of making and shooting them, I would guess. If there is need for a title to ensure that a bowyer is accomplished, then reputation alone will always more than suffice. Especially with the internet up and running.
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Knots actually establishing a guild and a curriculum would be a logistcal nightmare! As you say, who would make the rules? Who would select those that made the rules? I would think that about 70% of the curriculum should be based on actually building bows and the other 30% on related skills. I buy 90% my wood in stave or board form so have not developed the best skills in selecting trees or curing for that matter. I have never gotten into finishing bows so lack skills in that area, same with handle wraps and a number of other related skills.
Can you imagine the fighting, argueing, and divisions that might happen in setting up a guild? Also, many bowyers specialize in one type of bow, say elbs, or native american for instance and they get really good at it. As long as they stayed within their area of expertise they would be true bowyers. This would indicate a need for sub classes and trying to categorize all the different bows. Sounds like a pain in the rear.
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Can't see any point in a guild.
There is one in the UK the 'Worshipful Company of Bowyers' or something like that.
I looked at their website... I could send pics of my work and pay 'em thirty five quid or somesuch each year for the privelige of them telling me what I already know... that I'm a bowyer.
Send me the money, I'll tell you anything you want to hear, heck I'll even say you're pretty :)
Del
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When you start looking at trees the way you used to look at pretty ladies ::).
Del
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA FACT!
make a bumper sticker that says "i brake for trees" or "i brake for bow wood"
real conversation:
riding in the car with my lady
bryce: (glances out the window and sees an apple tree with a perfectly straight branch. face clings to the window with drool)
"i have to have it"
the lady: "have what"
bryce: "that apple branch"
the lady: "you've got to be kidding me!? you have a problem......."
bryce: "nope i have a desire, a need, a lust for bow wood....perfectly normal"
the lady: "no"
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If you NEVER think about a bow breaking as your building it and assume all of them will hold together fine........you come a good ways towards being somebody in the bow building arena.
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Knots actually establishing a guild and a curriculum would be a logistcal nightmare! As you say, who would make the rules? Who would select those that made the rules? I would think that about 70% of the curriculum should be based on actually building bows and the other 30% on related skills. I buy 90% my wood in stave or board form so have not developed the best skills in selecting trees or curing for that matter. I have never gotten into finishing bows so lack skills in that area, same with handle wraps and a number of other related skills.
Can you imagine the fighting, argueing, and divisions that might happen in setting up a guild? Also, many bowyers specialize in one type of bow, say elbs, or native american for instance and they get really good at it. As long as they stayed within their area of expertise they would be true bowyers. This would indicate a need for sub classes and trying to categorize all the different bows. Sounds like a pain in the rear.
Well now the more you talk about it, the closer I come to warmin up to the idea. ;D You make some good points really. It would make sense to have those who are the best at one thing do that one thing. With guitars I believe it is the same way, for a factory made guitar (don't know how I keep thinkin about guitars,... I traded in my cedar top/mahogany to get a spruce/rosewood the other day... When the spruce came in the mail the top had a big gash and it sounded terrible in the treble department to me, like a cigar box bad, so now I am waiting to go buy a cedar top right now,... I got like 2 days or so until they refund the money so I can buy me a cedar once again... time is going very slow around here), but with a factory made guitar I believe that every other thing is done by someone else, and it makes it alot more efficient. I believe a good amount of experienced luthier's got together while back, including kenny hill and a couple others, and founded cordoba guitars. For the price of these guitar's, they are amazing compared to what used to be the standard for a student classical guitar. They are factory made, but with one person doing one thing, and one person doing something else. I guess the main luthier's would be considered the master's, and the chinese guys they teach to make guitars the apprentices. But at the same time, a luthier made instrument, made by one guy instead of ten, will almost always sound better than a factory made one... Maybe I'm losing the meaning of what you meant at first...
"Can you imagine the fighting, argueing, and divisions that might happen in setting up a guild?"
Yes. ;D
Really I was just spoutin off my opinion on the guild and master/apprentice relationship the way I understood it, and how it might just be a little hard to have that relationship outside of a business environment. Even if the only business part of it was "You pay me so much money, and ill teach you to make a fine bow" kinda thing. With the available literature, (some of which people on this forum have contributed to, ;)) there doesn't seem to be any tricks of the trade that you can only learn from someone in person. Of course I wouldn't know to be honest, me and steve from middletown are the only people I have ever known in my life that makes bows, traditional or not. Although I would kill to see any other bowyer at work in person. To be able to go somewhere and be taught by an experienced bowyer to the degree that people are on this forum would be worth the money to someone who wanted to learn face to face. I do know that a few bowyers will hold workshops that you can go to for a price. But nothing like a dedicated apprenticeship available to the general public.
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When I meet someone new, I say, "Hi! I'm Jawge the bowyer." Then, I get funny looks so I know I must be one.
Jawge
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I took a look at that link to the folks that are making a guild out of bow making. I can certify to you all that I will not submit any of my work to them for scrutiny nor will I bow and scrape (pun intended) to their standards!
I can just see the prats coming out of the woodwork (again, pun intended) to be condescendingly critical about the most insignificant of details. Things like throwing a fit over someone saying "firing" an arrow. And yes, I even recognize the last bit was not a complete sentence. But you got it didn't you? No, I'm more of the mindset that a bunch of jokers with sawdust in their hair and splinters festering in their fingers getting together at places like Pappy's is where I will spend my efforts. I'd gladly hand over a bow for their opinions on it. I'll laugh and smile like a Cheshire cat as they all run for cover when someone makes a test draw on that bow. I'll file away for future references any jokes they make on it's supposed lack of merit. I'll cherish those opinions because they come from like minded persons.
Honorable and Worshipful League of Oxidental Toxophilists be danged. I'll sooner rattle and hang with the rest of you Primitive Archers!
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I took a look at that link to the folks that are making a guild out of bow making. I can certify to you all that I will not submit any of my work to them for scrutiny nor will I bow and scrape (pun intended) to their standards!
I can just see the prats coming out of the woodwork (again, pun intended) to be condescendingly critical about the most insignificant of details. Things like throwing a fit over someone saying "firing" an arrow. And yes, I even recognize the last bit was not a complete sentence. But you got it didn't you? No, I'm more of the mindset that a bunch of jokers with sawdust in their hair and splinters festering in their fingers getting together at places like Pappy's is where I will spend my efforts. I'd gladly hand over a bow for their opinions on it. I'll laugh and smile like a Cheshire cat as they all run for cover when someone makes a test draw on that bow. I'll file away for future references any jokes they make on it's supposed lack of merit. I'll cherish those opinions because they come from like minded persons.
Honorable and Worshipful League of Oxidental Toxophilists be danged. I'll sooner rattle and hang with the rest of you Primitive Archers!
That sounded like a battle speech. You got me all hyped up and ready to go to war and everything!
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Giving it more thought it is true that many hobbyists identify themselves by their hobby, skateboarders, bikers, gardeners, bird watchers, archers, hunters, surfers, etc. So fair enough, identifying as a bowyer if you make bows works! What should proffessional bow makers call themselves? LOL.
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Giving it more thought it is true that many hobbyists identify themselves by their hobby, skateboarders, bikers, gardeners, bird watchers, archers, hunters, surfers, etc. So fair enough, identifying as a bowyer if you make bows works! What should proffessional bow makers call themselves? LOL.
PEARL DRUMS of course Steve!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!
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Professional bowyers? But selling a few bows doesn't speak to ability or experience. :) Jawge
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i dont need nobody telling me what i am or how i ott to do it or how i did it wrong, that what my wife's for, Bub
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i dont need nobody telling me what i am or how i ott to do it or how i did it wrong, that what my wife's for, Bub
;D This whole thread has cracked me the frig up.
What should proffessional bow makers call themselves? LOL.
From what most people on here and primitive archer have said, I'd guess "poor". :laugh:
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JW has it right, we are on this forum because we value the opinions (and humour) of our peers.
I can't think of anywere else I (or anyone else) could ask a bow making question and get an answer worthy of reading.
Del
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Interesting discussion this is. What do we want the label of "bowyer" to do? To distinguish between people and their skill, or drive, or intuitive ability, or do we want it to band us together toward a goal of taking wood, hide, horn, etc and making a fun piece of equipment. This is equipment that is not easily mass produced.
No one on this site that i have ever contacted asked me my skill level, my tally of bows made, broke, or sold. They always encourage and help as one with a common interest and drive.
I don't claim the title "bowyer" or "craftsman"-some like my work, some do not. I am a bowyer because I make bows. Others are better, more experienced, more skilled, and appreciate their expertise. But every thing I know about bow building I got from someone else, and I suspect they got it in bits and pieces from some one else too.
I got up for a break in this post and saw "The Traditional Bowyer's Bible" on my night stand. I guess bowyers can read a book first, or consult the work of others. The guys who but the first TBB together invited us all to stand under the sign "bowyer" and join them in having a good time improving and learning and sharing-as they certianly did.
Let's keep joining together in our various skill levels and experiences and remember that anyone who has made a bow that shoots, even if it breaks, is a rare breed in these days.
Keep tilerin'
Kpete
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cool topic
I think I'm probably a level 3 bowyer...
I still haven't figured out how to make a +2 bow along with magic arrows....I have a looooong way to go. ;D
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Personally, I think the term bowyer describes anyone that makes bows. However, like my full time trade, I think that there are levels of skill that can be defined. Though these differ in modern times from what they would have been defined as during Archery's pre-gun prime time.
I would describe modern bowyer's skills as such:
Apprentice Bowyer...A person that makes or attempts to make bows of the simplest design with the easiest materials to work with. This person needs significant help from available resources and breaks more potential bows than makes.
Journeyman Bowyer... A person that makes bows of a professional quality in all but the most difficult designs with all but the most difficult materials to work with. They semi-regularly produce examples that are near flawless in workmanship and can expect their work to last for years of service. This person needs guidance with only the most difficult jobs and makes more bows than they break.
Artisan Bowyer: A person that always produces bows with flawless or near flawless workmanship. They are comfortable making bows from any material and any design and never need guidance. This level of skill results in nearly never breaking a bow.
Master Bowyer: God
JS
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cool topic
I think I'm probably a level 3 bowyer...
I still haven't figured out how to make a +2 bow along with magic arrows....I have a looooong way to go. ;D
Just spam like 40 or 50 red oak board bows, they're like 5 experience points each...
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Just spam like 40 or 50 red oak board bows, they're like 5 experience points each...
If that is true then i have five experience points
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Ok folks
I have decided
I am now the in charge person or whatever you call the president of a guild !
So I say we are all bowyers and that is the end of the discussion !
Well all of us but me that is !!
Guy
Good night and sleep tight !
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I just tell people I make bows. I never use the term bowyer. TMI. I still get blank looks. They think I make bows for wrapping presents. Then I explain what I do and then they seem to understand. :) Jawge
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Bows for wrapping presents... now that's funny! :laugh: And very true.
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I was picking up some linen for backing, for my daughters bow, at the fabric store. The lady that was cutting it asked what I was making and I said that I'm making a bow, and needed the linen to reinforce it, so it didn't explode and hurt anyone. She gave me a wierd look then continued cutting.
she had an even less pleased look on her face after I explained what type of bow I was talking about... Some people just can't understand life without technology... It was a sad day
JS
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There does seem to be a difference between saying that you do something and saying that you are something. Though the word’s definition may not require it, most feel a bit hesitant to describe themselves as something they are not quite proficient in. That is, something that doesn’t truly describe a portion of who we are, perhaps beyond the craft itself.
I have taken martial arts for 25 years and have studied many styles. However for a great deal of time I would have described myself as a student or say “I take martial arts”. However at this point martial arts has affected who I am, how I view myself, and how I view the world. I can say with pride, I am a martial artist.
So though I may technically be a bowyer, having made bows, I would not yet describe myself as one. I hope that someday this passion will have affected who I am as a person in a profound way. I will then describe myself as a bowyer. :)
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If you NEVER think about a bow breaking as your building it and assume all of them will hold together fine........you come a good ways towards being somebody in the bow building arena.
I got to that point through no increase of my own skill. I just switched to hickory and no matter how bad my tillering was, they still seemed to hold together. ;) I like to think I've progressed since those dark early days though.
Julian
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When start to earn money from bowmaking...?! ???
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If I turned archery into a living, I would hate it. As soon as money plays into something all the fun is sucked out of it for me.
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Funny how such a simple little question brought out so many responses :laugh:
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I enjoy these types of discussions... so long as they stay friendly, and this one certainly has. You guys are great fun . Danny
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cool topic
I think I'm probably a level 3 bowyer...
I still haven't figured out how to make a +2 bow along with magic arrows....I have a looooong way to go. ;D
Just spam like 40 or 50 red oak board bows, they're like 5 experience points each...
ha ha ha love it! I think may be at level 4 in a few years or so....
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I was picking up some linen for backing, for my daughters bow, at the fabric store. The lady that was cutting it asked what I was making and I said that I'm making a bow, and needed the linen to reinforce it, so it didn't explode and hurt anyone. She gave me a wierd look then continued cutting.
she had an even less pleased look on her face after I explained what type of bow I was talking about... Some people just can't understand life without technology... It was a sad day
JS
Been there a bunch of times. I laugh at them anymore. I don't mind the normal person, or one of my old friends, etc. But, like, my wifes nephew came over a while ago, I showed him some bows. He is like 12. "so, does the string actually stretch on those", he says. LOL Trying to get him interested. But then, when all I get is weird looks, as he runs off to go get on facebook and play with his cell phone ( gods know why he even needs one) it just makes me sad. When I was his age I would love to go launch a needle point bodkin into a car door.
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Been there a bunch of times. I laugh at them anymore. I don't mind the normal person, or one of my old friends, etc. But, like, my wifes nephew came over a while ago, I showed him some bows. He is like 12. "so, does the string actually stretch on those", he says. LOL Trying to get him interested. But then, when all I get is weird looks, as he runs off to go get on facebook and play with his cell phone ( gods know why he even needs one) it just makes me sad. When I was his age I would love to go launch a needle point bodkin into a car door.
Reminds me of a time I was speaking with my oldest boy's teacher when we lived in Alaska, 2nd or 5th grade, I can't recall. I said something along the lines that "It's only natural that a boy his age will be interested in guns and bows and hunting..." The teacher, only a few years older than me, replied "Maybe for you and me that was true, but most kids today are only interested in video games and Pokemon cards." It was then that I knew we must be doing something right. It astounds me that my kids knew nothing of baseball before we took them to little league. With me deployed half the time, I wasn't around to show them, and they don't pick it up on the playground anymore; I don't think they are allowed to bring a bat to school anymore for fear of it being a weapon.
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"It's also my belief, that in the medeival bowyer's guild, you would have spent your life becoming the master of the one particular style of bow, made from the particular wood, that was endemic to your particular time and place."
I really think someone could go from virgin to so-called master bowyer when it comes to longbows/warbows in maybe 2 or 3 days. Maybe 4 or 5 bows. It just isn't that complicated... (...of course, this is just my opinion guys.)
you are joking, right?
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I just tell people I make bows. I never use the term bowyer. TMI. I still get blank looks. They think I make bows for wrapping presents. Then I explain what I do and then they seem to understand. :) Jawge
...or hair bows! LOL I get the same thing! :)
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"It's also my belief, that in the medeival bowyer's guild, you would have spent your life becoming the master of the one particular style of bow, made from the particular wood, that was endemic to your particular time and place."
I really think someone could go from virgin to so-called master bowyer when it comes to longbows/warbows in maybe 2 or 3 days. Maybe 4 or 5 bows. It just isn't that complicated... (...of course, this is just my opinion guys.)
you are joking, right?
It only took me two bows to become a master bowyer. It is quite simple.............if it holds together long enough to take a picture it counts right?
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Absolutely, taking a picture, shooting an arrow, talking about it to a friend; all those a valid thresholds to have created a bow. ;)
George
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"It's also my belief, that in the medeival bowyer's guild, you would have spent your life becoming the master of the one particular style of bow, made from the particular wood, that was endemic to your particular time and place."
I really think someone could go from virgin to so-called master bowyer when it comes to longbows/warbows in maybe 2 or 3 days. Maybe 4 or 5 bows. It just isn't that complicated... (...of course, this is just my opinion guys.)
you are joking, right?
It only took me two bows to become a master bowyer. It is quite simple.............if it holds together long enough to take a picture it counts right?
read what i quoted again, that wasnt his point
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I know what he and you meant Peter. George and I where just having fun is all. I will let Toomany answer your question.
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getting pretty heated up in here. im thinking that this topic has enough replies.
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getting pretty heated up in here. im thinking that this topic has enough replies.
I don't know, I think it was fine until pearl decided to randomly insult me.
EDIT: I don't remember when you showed up around here pearl but ever since you have it seems you have felt the need to talk crap to me, or try to correct me when half the time you don't know what your talking about (can't fix a bow with a crack on the back? When I have and will continue to sinew / rawhide / linen patch bows that need it with the rest of the world), I guess maybe to prove your a "real" bowyer or something. Even posted you the link to a chapter in TBB that describes the process, but I guess your ego still don't let you admit your wrong, or else you would lose your right to talk down to me right? Pretend to know what your talking about and stuff? Or like that thread on tradgang, where you told that guy that you can't recurve a red oak board, when I have seen probably like 5 red oak board recurve's that were bent with dry heat. But for some reason your infinite wisdom has changed reality and now it is impossible. Even though I am absolutely sure you have never tried. Whatever your trying to prove by insulting me I really don't care but it is lately making my favorite forum a pain in the butt so you think you can give it a rest already?
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I will share something I have a feeling that a lot of old timers will agree with, maybe not. Building bows is just like growing up in any other trade, at first we get discouraged and then we start to have some great successes, all of a sudden we feel like we know a lot. We are like sponges absorbing everything we hear or read. We continue on building bows, sharpening our skills and after a time realize that everything we know could be shared and probably has been shared in a relatively short amount of time. The ones we shared it with will know as much as us plus what they learned on their own. No substitute for practice and experience but we do tend to get more humble as we go.
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I've sure had my share of staves that have left me humbled.
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I'm just greatfull you all decided to share with me....
The term bowyer sounds a whole lot like a job title and I hope this thing I'm growing to love never feels like a job...
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"what kind of weights do you build?"
Nothing heavy or anything. If it is for myself than I will make a bow 50# - 80#. I can build up to 125 fine but I popped a rib trying to go to around 150 on this bow (it was from an injury from a long time ago, some huge guy punched me when we was drunk and I don't know if he broke it but I couldn't move or bend or sit down or sleep or nothing without being in some pretty bad pain for like 2 months. I would of went to the hospitial but I had warrents at the time for some stupid stuff and was a bit paranoid.). Honestly I have zero experience with anything heavier and I don't want to.
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I hunt so i am a hunter
I fish that makes me a fisherman
I shoot an arrow with a bow that qualifies me as an archer
Regardless of skill or success that's the definition
If i do these for a sorce of income that makes me a professional whatever
So by that standerd i may be a bowyer...however like many i feel the need to earn the term and do not feel i have done so....but as a reference to introduction to someone by someone i feel it could be used ???
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1993..when I made my first one. :) Jawge
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;D ;D ;D There you go Jawges. Settle down boys. >:(
Pappy
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I was wonderin' when the sheriff was going to drop into the bowyer's bar to settle down them fellers. Step on over,Sheriff Pappy, and I'll pour you a coffee...black, no sugar? Man coffee. :) Jawge
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"what kind of weights do you build?"
Nothing heavy or anything. If it is for myself than I will make a bow 50# - 80#. I can build up to 125 fine but I popped a rib trying to go to around 150 on this bow (it was from an injury from a long time ago, some huge guy punched me when we was drunk and I don't know if he broke it but I couldn't move or bend or sit down or sleep or nothing without being in some pretty bad pain for like 2 months. I would of went to the hospitial but I had warrents at the time for some stupid stuff and was a bit paranoid.). Honestly I have zero experience with anything heavier and I don't want to.
yet you think you can teach someone to make 'good' warbows in a few days?
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"what kind of weights do you build?"
Nothing heavy or anything. If it is for myself than I will make a bow 50# - 80#. I can build up to 125 fine but I popped a rib trying to go to around 150 on this bow (it was from an injury from a long time ago, some huge guy punched me when we was drunk and I don't know if he broke it but I couldn't move or bend or sit down or sleep or nothing without being in some pretty bad pain for like 2 months. I would of went to the hospitial but I had warrents at the time for some stupid stuff and was a bit paranoid.). Honestly I have zero experience with anything heavier and I don't want to.
yet you think you can teach someone to make 'good' warbows in a few days?
Whoa guys... Peter-t123 don't you think that this has been heated up enough? Can everyone please stop questioning toomanyknots and let him keep his own opinions? Everyone has different ones and a I personally believe that yes a good bowyer could teach people to build good bows in just a few days with the proper guidance and mentoring.
Jon
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yeah lets be cool and just let it go
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Would you like to enlighten me peter to the reason why I could not? (also, to note, I am definitely cool as a cucumber. I never mind debating anything on here, keeps me from annoying my wife)
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no reason why you can't, those bows were meant to be mass produced
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all you fellas can call me anything ya like.....just not late for supper
rich
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to add to half eye comment
call me anything you want but don't call me a compound shooter!
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Pete-t123;
Please take Ifrit167's advice and lets keep this a simple debate without the cutting remarks. Pappy's asleep, the Deputies have Night Shift. ;)
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so........... :o......to make a polar bear trap.... you cut a hole in the ice... open a can of peas and place the peas around the hole..... when the bear comes to take a pea... you kick him in the ice hole...... 8)
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All this from such an innocent question ::)
Around non bow folks i call myself a bowyer (and then explain). Around (most of) you guys i call myself a novice. Fair nuff?
I will say this, there is a BIG difference between walking someone through the bowbuilding process and having them produce a bow (even an exceptional one), and then letting them go on their own and do it again, whether a copy of the original or let alone a new style. It's like walking a child through a few addition problems and saying you taught them addition (and then calling them a mathematician!) Having done both (teach math and bowbuilding), I can attest to the similarity.
I can't imagine learning this craft without PA and all the mentors I have. I imagine i'd have broken a whole lot and persevered through sheer stubbornness!!
Hope I'm not stirring up instead of adding productive banter ;)
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lol country, cut that out . . . my kids are asleep!
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"I can't imagine learning this craft without PA and all the mentors I have. I imagine i'd have broken a whole lot and persevered through sheer stubbornness!!"
Can you imagine how much more boring making bows would be without the internet and this forum/paleoplanet/tradgang/the leatherwall/any other one I am forgetting? We would all be "master bowyers" just because we wouldn't have anything to do but make bows! lol I will say that if there is any one thing that the internet bowyer/bow making community or whatever I'm aloud to call it ( ;D lol) has given to me, it would be inspiration from day one. Just all the bows that people make, I have come to have an individual fetish for, I believe, ever single type and design of bow from seeing so many types and designs that I liked and learning the intricacies of their construction. Where as I probably would not of taken an interest in a certain type of bow other wise. And the ability to share something with people who will appreciate it opposed to most people I know in person in my day to day life who just don't put there heart into anything they do. You do make some good points k-hat. Bub, that is how I feel too.
so........... :o......to make a polar bear trap.... you cut a hole in the ice... open a can of peas and place the peas around the hole..... when the bear comes to take a pea... you kick him in the ice hole...... 8)
Lol, what?!? ;D
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so........... :o......to make a polar bear trap.... you cut a hole in the ice... open a can of peas and place the peas around the hole..... when the bear comes to take a pea... you kick him in the ice hole...... 8)
that made my night ;D
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;D ;D ;D it's all good. :)
Pappy
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You know I have thought about this a lot since it came up and all the above answers are correct ,IMO ,from the folks that has completed the first shootable to the folks that have built hundreds,different levels but all Boyer's. I am one of them folks that it took a long while, It is the same in other aspects of my life.I have been a mechanic all my life and that has been a while ;) ;D but I worked in shops and mechanised for a living for at least 5 years before I felt confrotable calling my self a mechanic,some folks I have known called their self a mechanic
when they learned to change the oil or put on a set of brakes,guess in the true since they were .It's the same with bow making with me so I guess it is when you feel good about what you do and each person is different. I am not sure their is any one answer and that is the kind of subject that always stirs the pot. Thanks for keeping it clean,just my oppion and yall know how oppions are. ;) ;D ;D
Pappy
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When I first started building bows I thought a to be a bowyer you had a bow building bisness not the reason I strated. Never really thought of myself as a bowyer even thought I do build a few bows for money. I just like building bows the woods,fields the animals. Doing things with my own hands. All of these things it's the simple life style It's evolved into over the years.
But I don't think of myself a bowyer.
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toomanyknots and others, the internet is a relatively recent phenomenon (thanks Al Gore! :) ). Anyway, yes, I can remember making bows when there was no PA, LW or PP. It was fun. Experimenting was great. But this forum really adds to the experience. I think those just starting take for granted how nice it is to communicate with like minded individuals. This forum is quite a resource for the newcomer where questions can be answered, tillers critiqued, etc. Pretty neat. Thank you for mentioning it and realizing how nice this really is. I've enjoyed the opportunity this site and others affords. My haven. Thanks. :) Jawge
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toomanyknots and others, the internet is a relatively recent phenomenon (thanks Al Gore! :) ). Anyway, yes, I can remember making bows when there was no PA, LW or PP. It was fun. Experimenting was great. But this forum really adds to the experience. I think those just starting take for granted how nice it is to communicate with like minded individuals. This forum is quite a resource for the newcomer where questions can be answered, tillers critiqued, etc. Pretty neat. Thank you for mentioning it and realizing how nice this really is. I've enjoyed the opportunity this site and others affords. My haven. Thanks. :) Jawge
Now that's what I'm talkin bout Willis :) ........ but "Al Gore!" ???
Eight months building bows and some success's. I'd probably still be scratchin my head trying to figure this out!!! PA is the greatest!!! Woke up a chromosome in this old desk jockey :)
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Without TBB and saxon pope's hunting with the bow and arrow, id still be tieing rubber bands on honeysuckle limbs like when I was 8 and thinking they were "bows". ;D (or I guess that one chapter in hunting with the bow and arrow, I never finished reading after he gave out those longbow dimensions lol)
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Toomany...,
Do you have any honey suckle branches to trade?
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lol, I can sure as heck get some kpete, are you being serious? The honeysuckle around here is amur honeysuckle.
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coaster, take it easy. I was kidding! Calm those chromosomes. :) Jawge
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Thanks for clarifyin Jawge cuz that sure would've been an 'inconvenient truth' ;) >:D
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It's all good Jawge :laugh:
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It is amazing to see how much the level of skill on this forum has progressed since I happened upon it nearly ten years ago. The sheer numbers of shooters made by first timers is impressive. The basic process of making a bow hasn't changed, but with so many more tips and techniques available here, it is much easier for a novice to have early success. I read the first three TBBs back then, and have reread them several times since, but they can only take you so far. Seeing all the different bows on this site, and reading about what the makers went through to get them there is invaluable. I don't get the chance to build very often, but each time I do, the bows turn out levels above the last one, because of the knowledge I gain on this forum. Thanks to everone :)
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Kinda like walking around the world. You can see your progress everyday. But how can you tell your on the other side?!?
Bow building is a process to me that is both a public accomplishment and a personal acceivement. There are aspects of this skill that really can't be shared, just felt and understood. Then there are times when public acknowledgement helps me to realize how far I've come.
But, I'm still not to the other side... ::)
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I'm enjoying reading this. I appreciate Jawge's point. I was just thinking the other day about how great it is to have the internet to learn about things so quickly! I thought how hard it would be to learn to make bows if I couldn't just go over to my computer and read Gordon's build alongs or all the many other very well put together build alongs or just click over to Jawge's site or others....It's so awesome!
I consider myself lucky. I am lucky that so many cool people gather in one place and are willing to share!
I think making bows is the most difficult simple thing I've ever done.
It's amazing to think that bending a stick, putting a string on it and launching another stick can be such a complicated yet simple process. It's simple in concept and very often difficult in execution. I think most would agree that there have been bows that just seemed like the most agonizing frustrating and satisfying to build and others just seem to happen with out much effort...strange.
The idea seems so straight forward then add to it all the variations and combinations and variety of woods and glues and tools and other materials not to mention the seemingly infinite kinds of designs and styles and variations of all the above....something about it is so appealling. The simple complexity is gripping and has a way of captivating your imagination, your mind heart and spirit all at the same time! AWESOME!
I started making bows because the boy scouts wanted to do it for an activity and I needed to learn how to do it so I could teach them! So after I made two bows I started teaching them....I had no choice.
We had some crappy ones some broken ones and some really nice ones but nothing can replace the smile you see and the light in their eyes when you see them shoot a bow that THEY made for the first time! I've since taught some other scout leaders how to make bows and they are teaching their boys.
They came over one Saturday morning and were expecting me to teach them to make a bow in an hour! Can you imagine that? I took them through the process, explained how we did it, showed them bows at varying stages of the process, showed them a tillering tree, explained the tillering process, told them to read TBB Vol 1 and gave them this site as references, told them it was probably a good idea to "use hickory because you have a better chance of making a bow that works even if your tillering is not great.." then sent them off thinking they would be calling me for help. I didn't hear anything for a while. Two months later I saw one of those guys and asked them how it was going. He smiled and said "we're almost done." I'm not sure if they call themselves bowyers or even if they have heard of that term but I know they are having a lot of fun. Just like we did and still are. Now all the younger boys can't wait to move up to our group so THEY can make a bow! ....what have I started.... ???
Anyway. Some of my thoughts on this. I have made bows and taught others but I still feel very much like a beginner. It seems like the more I learn the more I learn there is more to learn... :o
Am I a bowyer. Yep! Probably level 2 or 3. ;D I look forward to the next level!
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Nice story Arrowind :)
Del
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We may be starting to figure this thing out !!
Yes Stringman its kinda like walking around the world ! How do you know when you have arrived !
I like like that !
Arrowind
That is a valueable lesson to learn !
The more you know the more you know you don't know!
Have fun on your jorney folks !!
Guy
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Here's another thought. When do I start calling myself a bowyer? Right before I screw something up terribly in front of a group of people watching me work. Preferably something including arterial blood and sharp snapping noise associated with failing wood. Yup. That's about it.