Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Flintknapping => Topic started by: iowabow on March 30, 2012, 10:25:44 am
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I have been studying patterns in pressure flaking and thought I would share info and ask others to share what they have tried. After you learn to make a point and pressure flake the next question is "what does this technique do?" So here is a photo (photo to be added after I charge my phone) of my point I worked on yesterday. I ran a set of flakes then used the delta for the platform for the other side it created a snake like pattern on the edge that was very sharp. Then I pushed the deltas off to make straight. Notice the broken tip, I dropped it and hit the edge of a marble end table and broke the tip off and took a chip out of the table (Annette dosent know yet so don't tell her).
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-03-30070208.jpg)
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Ironically, I just re-read Waldorf and he states that oblique flaking is the best for persons wanting hunt with their points.
As for the table, deny deny deny >:D
Tracy
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Mister, you are in a world of hurt about that table. Can you bribe your son to take the blame? ::)
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I might be able to spin it to the wall
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Nice pattern on that one John! I've watched vids read books and tried some of that collateral, oblique, edge to edge, diagonal, progressive stuff, hahaha. hell, i don't even remember what half that stuff means anymore ;D. Sure is nice when you pull it off though :) :).
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Well the search for flake patterns is continuing. I read that I have to have a near perfect preform before I start and then I need to make a series of flakes evenly spaced out. Well that is what I tried but the preform was not perfect so this is what happened.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-04-07005233.jpg)
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And the problem is ? ' Frank
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yeow what Sparrow said : ???
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You guys are too nice. I came close on the right side but the left kinda got lost because the center was a little noisy and changed the direction of the flakes as they moved toward the center. I learned that when you start the pass on other edge but same side you need to be careful not to over shoot your flakes.
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... you need to be careful not to over shoot your flakes.
LOL, you're worried about overshooting and messing up a beautiful flake pattern. Last overshoot I messed up a point with took off a third of the opposite edge. :-[ :-[ I guess it's all relative to where we are as knappers. :) I'm loving the way you think through your knapping and show it to everybody in real time. It is very helpful, even if sometimes it strikes me funny. :D
Keep on knapping!
And, happy Easter. :)
George
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I'd love to know what the heck you guys are talking about. I'd like to clean up my points a bit but in the end my goal is 1) pointy 2)sharpish 3) not ugly.
Some of this lingo is like stepping into Nasa's control room and getting orders to do something which sounds exciting but you remember that you are only there to change the coffee filters out.
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I know this is a little obsessive but I want to try to control the pattern of flakes so that I can match them collateral or oblique or v them up or down. I figured the first step is to make a real good platform and create consistent flake removal. Once I have consistency then I should be able control direction. Below is a new platform I am working on.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-04-09073805.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-04-09073757.jpg)
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My goal now is to make sure all small high spot are gone without creating any hinges
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Also up to this point all work has been percussion so I think I will move to pressure. Those of you who are good at this please ring in if I am headed down a deadend. I am going to shape things up I hope in the process. I see from the photo that the tip is going to need to move to center.
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By the way this is rock that Scott and I picked up at "Secret Creek"
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Now that rock looks familiar! ;)
John, dont expect too much from pressure on a preform of that width. You will be doing great to get flakes to run to center. Use an ishi and really focus on "inward " pressure before you let it pop off. Heavy platforms are a must! Also, dont try to get to thin cause you will step easily on a piece like that. Obviously, you need to make all final alignment corrections and fix any convexity issues before the final flake pass.
Now after all that good advise I expect you will go ahead and do what you want and show how you did it anyway... >:( ::) ;)
Show us a finished point!
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LOl you really are getting to know me well. Scott knows that I push my work to the point of failure 75% of the time. OK I will try to resist the Brass Ring (bug to a light) Syndrome. I have a little cup on the back side of the platform that will present and issue i think. I often start the prperation too late so made the starting point much wider this time.
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Hey scott this time I thinned it to the point I would be OK with without thinning the preform anymore the "Tower Approach".
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Big break through for me today. I did not do things perfectly but I figured out another piece to the puzzle. I chickened out on the preform after talking to cowboy on the phone about the preform and I agree with Scott about the convexity issue. So I start a new preform focusing only on the issue of equal curve divided between both sides. Now with that said I did not do it great but I did it better so that was step number one. Next I started a row of flakes from the side that had the most meat. There is a reason for doing this that you will see later. After completing a row on the left I over shot on the second to the last flake. Small over shots will now no longer matter because of new platform preparation. So as I started the other side things went bad and the second flake stepped and the 5 and 6 did as well so I fixed the 2 flake and left the others because they were in a depression (result of poor convexity) that I knew was going to be an issue before I even started.
Now is where the fun began. I always wondered how to create a razor sharp edge without removing the nice pattern from the first flake path. What I did was to grind with the abrader a platform from the delta on the edge then start removing flakes.....wait it gets better....I also noticed that I can get a straighter line on the edge if I removed a small flake from the valley before applying heavy pressure to the ground delta. OK so I was thinking that if I removed two small flakes from the valley on each side that might make for a better pattern on the second side.
So my conclusion is that if you don't start with a. Really good preform the pattern will look random and you will run the risk of steps because you are trying to do things the same but on varying surfaces and that will get one in trouble quick.
Second most important thing I learned was how to keep the pattern on the first side and maybe how to make the pattern on the second.
Now with this information, and a lot of practice, I should be able to Be able to make this work.
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(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-04-10055604.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-04-10055556.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-04-10064901.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-04-10064927.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-04-10065014.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-04-10065026.jpg)
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That is sweet I love reading about your "trip to success". it is good stuff...
Micah
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This is unbelievable and amazing jump forward I had to stop and post this point in the middle of making it. I am not going to finish it so that I can have a record of the plaform preparation and thinkness at start. I need to keep it as a working tool but I think it is soooooo cool.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-04-10163050.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-04-10163535.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-04-10163945.jpg)
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The areas marked with the X were areas that were low and could persent problems. The tip was also a problem because it had a lot of chalk in the stone and did not release well. But wow what nice hour of fun. Stay tuned I am going to try to do a couple more tomorrow. Tell me what you think.
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Forgot to tell scott that I did use the ishi stick on this one after I moved down 1/3.
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Those flake scars look very nice to me. That looks like excellent progress John. Maybe after the granddaughters go to bed tonight I'll scoot out to the shop and make some gravel too. You're inspirational.
George
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I think you are going to be in a world of hurt if you drop one of those on her new table. :laugh: :laugh:
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OK I can do it twice but on this stone you will see some issues. First the center of the stone has some concrete like material that stop flakes and the basal end has no convexity. I did this with purpose so that I could find when the flake would stop.
OK so I now know that the preform has to be just right and the material has to be real good or the process is going to fail. You will get a nice point but the pattern will be more random and you will start jumping around.
Now that I can do side A I am puzzled at how the other side is done so I am going to youtube to find an answer. If anyone wants to head me in the right direction please feel free to do so.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-04-12074501.jpg)
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flintknapper jimmy said that the thickness of the stone will determine how wide the flake will be. looks to be the case seen above
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So, Did you do a ton of "grinding" after you got it to pre form stage? it looks like you took off all the flake scars, and then did a " Final " set?!?!
Micah
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no grinding before the final pass except on the platform as normal. I just carfefully removed the high spots and small flakes that remained. It will look pretty smooth before you start and that is a good thing.
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Cool, I never know how far to move from the last flake removed. I do okay when using a bopper I just have trouble being consistant with presure.. I have just recently made an ishi stick ( a hand flaker shooved into a large boo stick). I am needing to learn how to use it though!?!?
Micah
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Grady Bowen on youtube has some amazing flake patterens on the surface of his work. I think from looking at his points he is taking a very small flake toward the ridge on side A to make a platform for side B. I can easy do that but was hoped to not have the double ridge on the edge.
Options;
1. Live with the double ridge on edge and start working on the patterns for side B
2. grind the valley and focus on points that are serated
3. grind the delta on side A for a platform to remove flakes on side B (this leave a more random pattern on side B) Maybe I could grind the valley and remove all small flake on side B. This would create a ridge just below the ground delta on side A. Then I could place pressure flaker on ground delta and and remove flakes on side B.
I think I want the same pattern on both sides and like the real sharp edge from the delta platform so I am going to give option three a couple more tries.
if that does not work I am going to focus on the Bowen style by pushing a small flake off the delta.
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So I got home and went directly to the flint pile and bifaced out a beautiful piece of burlington. I think it was about the nicest I have worked yet from this area. Well I set that stone aside to use later and opened another stone that was really poor but has nice color. This stone was rough and tough and was like knapping sandstone. I thought that I had nothing to lose so I started working the stone up like the rest. But could not set it real clean for fear it would step bad. Anyway I was very happy to get patterns on both side even though it was not real clean. I used a combination of process from the list above to bring it all together and will explain it in detail with the next run.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-04-13153659.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-04-13153653.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-04-13155439.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-04-13180938.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-04-13180946.jpg)
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Looks good to me!
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Thanks Bevan I think this point is not great but the process is solid and should work well with higher quality material.
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Very nice!
Micah
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Looks good John! I'll have a box of rocks headed your way on monday..
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I worked texas rock yesterday and forgot how hard I have to hit it. I did not thin this biface out fast enough and had to work with a less than idea preform. Here is a view of side A before I flake side B. It is turkey season so it is cutting into my knapping time. I am not real happy with the pattern but the flake scars are cool.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/_18temp.jpg)
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Looks great to me. That rock looks familiar too.
George
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Man, your makin'em look really good!
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Thank you cowboy. Thanks G and jimbob. I really destroyed side B with 2 steps so I went back and reworked side A and side B but side B still looks like garbage but side A looks amazing now. I think I have to remove the deltas on side A toward side B first then grind the valleys and remove flakes to get a good pattern on side B. If I could just figure out side B I would have it.
So the main points that I think are important are:
1. Real good material is key
2. Real good preforms, don't think you can get away with anything I won't happen as a beginner
3. Must always have good convexity
4. Slow down and question everything because good is not good enough.
5. Shannon once told me that you should not shoot a flake longer than you need to so, I understand that now to mean " a flake should not be forced to do what what other flakes are doing with ease". So if everything is set up right you should not have to "try and make something happen" another words you are in the "zone" as cowboy says it.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-04-16064226.jpg)
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Only way you could improve on that John is to run all those flakes parallel and edge to edge imo.. Looking good.
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Only way you could improve on that John is to run all those flakes parallel and edge to edge imo.. Looking good.
Thanks Paul!
I was thinking on the drive to work that my problems are starting much earlier than I know so I have to come up with a new bifacing plan.
"Me just Thinking"
1. Start with a good thin and wide biface so that you can get great convexity and identify where the median ridge might fall. The thickness should be close to the thickness of the completed piece.
2. Start by removing flakes that do not go to center, maybe almost to center
3. Make the lowest flake scar the level of plane during this process.
4. Shape with the mindset of establishing a median ridge then remove flake that go half way to center
5. Set up platform and double check to make sure there are no high spots.
6. Continue with ishi stick making sure to do as Paul stated above and not to high on the platform. I think dont over do it as I go.
We will see if this works today or tomorrow. It is hard on the hands to make one of these everyday.
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Heck, all your patterns looks good to me. You've really improved with your skills!
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Heck, all your patterns looks good to me. You've really improved with your skills!
Thanks Tower I had a chance to to work some stone my neighbor gave me from at trip to OR. Nasty black stuff it cuts me every time. My hands hurt so I work it bucause it is easy. Anyway I knocked the lip off twice and it messed up the pattern but I was happy with the finished point. Heck I even got a nice flute out of the deal. I still have not achieve what I want be getting closer. The convexity has to be perfect to make really good patterns.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-04-16183018.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-04-16183048.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-04-16184448.jpg)
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(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-04-16184848.jpg)
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That's a nice one. Perfect for hog huntin.
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Yea, that's lovely. Be awhile before I get to that point. Lookin good John!
George
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Looks like a beauty to me. Is it obsidian or dactite?
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Looks like a beauty to me. Is it obsidian or dactite?
Thanks all for following all these posts.
Bevan it is obsidian and I reached to pick up a blade to abrade with and it cut right into me without any pressure. It is just evil stuff.
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I know what you mean.
I have a piece of it from the point I did today under my thumbnail. Not sure how to get it out without involving several changes of pants :o
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John, that last looks good. Nice work on a pretty piece of obsid!
Bevan- it will feel better when it quits hurtin... ::) >:D
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OHOHOH I WANT ONE MOMMY!!!!!!!!!!! That is SWEET! I love the way obs scars.. Great job.
Micah
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I think I found some amazing rock and so I am up late baby sitting the kiln. Crazy right guys but I really would like to make some knife size poinst. Anyway I was passing the time working on the thinning thing with a stone I was bifacing out. I was thinking about what I have been working on and a passage from John Whittaker's book on flint knapping (all beginning knappers should have a copy) and in the part about patterns he talked about tip placement. His book entered my thinking on the 2nd pass on side A (side A is always the first side) and I started spacing the flakes closer together. This accomplished two things it all but eliminated the deltas and lowered the platform. This also decreased the bulb on the flake and left the surface convex. When I removed flakes on side B I placed the pressure flaker on the ridge (which I had abraded) and was able to get a nice pattern started. The edge was exactly what I had envisioned starting off with this post. OK I would have liked it to be more skilled but that is coming now with all my practice. I finilly did it and it feels real good. So look closely at the edge it is real sharp and the flake scars do not have the deltas pushed back on the edge. It is mostly clean all the way to the edge for the most part.
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-04-19232955.jpg)
(http://i1131.photobucket.com/albums/m559/iowabow2/2012-04-19233536.jpg)
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Wow, that looks perfect to me.
George
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Wow, that looks perfect to me.
George
Yes the process is solid now! It took a lot of practice but it all came together. It is hard to believe that only a couple of mm make all the difference in the world.
So I will practice this and the next post should be a real nice point.
If anyone wants to try this remember the following;
Prefect preform~no steps no shallow spots and must be always lens shaped before you start flake pattern.
Decide on a flake pattern that is close and leaves no deltas and is convex.
The final pass is not for fixing problems at all.
TAKE YOUR TIME you cant be in a hurry because it take about 2 hours to come close to doing it right.
On a scale of 1to10 with 10 being the most skilled I believe right now I am about a 2
Here are the following reasons
1. Platforms have low spots that make the pattern thin in areas
2. High spots in the center of the preform causes you to place the ishi high on platform so many flakes had to be thick to over shoot the center. This causes deeper flake scars and make side B platform to low.
3. I have not worked out how the up and down placement effects flake detachment. My guess is that the pattern will be somewhat nicer because less force equals more control. Also the flake can bend with the contour of the stone.