Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: sagitarius boemoru on October 29, 2007, 01:43:46 pm
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I do have some experience in making these in whitewood, but they need to be somehow different in terms of taper and width 2 depth ratio .
This is one I made recently, its quite close to MR shape.
(http://sweb.cz/hawkwind/ash901.jpg)
(http://sweb.cz/hawkwind/ash902.jpg)
(http://sweb.cz/hawkwind/ash903.jpg)
(http://sweb.cz/hawkwind/ash904.jpg)
(http://sweb.cz/hawkwind/ash905.jpg)
(http://sweb.cz/hawkwind/ash906.jpg)
(http://sweb.cz/hawkwind/ash90bracedontiler.jpg)
(http://sweb.cz/hawkwind/ash90at32.jpg)
Its more like 95# than 90# at 32´´ but what the heck. You can also see that string follow was not an issue. Though If I ll be making this for myself it would be 3´´ shorter and heat treated and tilered alot, so it will end up 1/4 lighter in mass.
If you want to make one in ash, find wood which barelly floats and you are there. It does shoot around 190 meters with 50 gram arrow, which is something I espected. My shooting buddy Rob makes shorter version of 100# warbow like this out of ash, more narrow and he is getting distances in terms of 200 meters and more.
Jaro
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Beautiful bow sag. I think ash is totally under rated.
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Fantastic looking bow,Jaroslav.I have a good looking piece of ash you've inspired me to work on.
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Thats a really nice bow Jaro. I like ash allot. Have made several bows out of ot nd think its a fine wood. Any chance you ahve a full draw?
What where your rings like on that piece? What depth to width ratio did you use?
I have a pice right npow that I am ready to lay out.
SJM
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That is a cool looking bow - don't know how you guys get them to bend so perfectly, those are some pretty tips too.
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It has not extremelly thick rings, but its quite heavy wood. I think it must be in SG 0.85 . It comes out sligtly flatter than similar bow in yew, when one starts with width tapper. This is 34 mm wide, but with the same width you could as well end up with 130# if you just ignore how the wood reacts to stress.
I also start with squared stave first, then plane down the corners and round them (on back) and plane downt the facetes from belly to sides and then round the part from facete to facete, thus having the typical "small flat surfaces on sides" MR profile to start with. It is very systematic approach and I think they worked the same way.
Jaro
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How long is the bow sag?
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Something like 74´´ or 75´´. I rarelly measure anything when I m making bows. I m having patterns for working with laminated staves, but that is of no use for split staves.
Jaro
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Wow! I have trouble avoiding set on an 80 inch ash bow.
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nice bow Jaro. Beautiful workmanship on the nocks.
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Nice. I would like slightly less give in the handle and like to see the tips come round a little more. And do I see a homage to the master in the style of the horn nocks?
Rod.
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Oh Rod, there is no shame to copy the best work around. ;D I get better as I make more of them, sometimes I make slightly better than these when I put them on laminated stave.
Jaro
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Very nice Jaro. The Ash I've harvested up here would not be up to the task
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Still, it's Victorian nocks :P
A friend of mine recently told me that Hungarian ash is another species than the regular european ash.
Good looking bow, and nice round tiller!
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It is not. >:D There is more than one style to victorian nock, but if you look at the woodcuts of Henry the VIII. meeting the emperor Maxmilian the archers around have all those curved hornnocks in very similar shape like this. And that is beginning of 16. century.
Jaro
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Hehe ;D
Haven't seen that one I think. Is it pictured in "The great warbow"? - which page?
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Huh. Its either in Great warbow, or in Longbow. but anyway, symetrically cut nocks must have coexisted with single side cut ones. Because there is deal of longbowish bows with recurved tips in pictres floating around. And recurve with assymentrical nock doesnt work.
(Though it can be argued that those are all with continental influence)
Jaro
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Very interesting point about side nocks being no good on recurves jaro. I guess this goes against the theory that the MR bows might have been reflexed.
What are your views on the narrowness on the MR bow tips? I'm under the impression that reproductions are a bit whip ended if built to the same dimentions. Could the outer limbs have been heat treated?
I also started wondering what evidence we have that a circular tiller was really used? We have paintings, but are they accurate enough? Ascham doesn't give us much to go on either. Maybe the bows were whip ended after all.
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I'm not sure that is the case, although I haven't tried it. But don't think there's much difference in recurve stability with a sidenocked bow or a victorian-style nock. If any difference, I would think the sidenock would be more stable if it was combined with a self tightening knot. If the recurve is bending enough, a narrow-tipped longbow will have stability-issues either way. And you usually need to adjust the recurves with heat to make them stable anyway.
My bet is that this is something they did to their bow when it had been thouroughly used, and they wanted to speed it up a little. A longbow is so long that there is little help in recurves, but recurving a longbow with a lot of stringfollow will make it simulate less stringfollow.
Simon: take a look in Hardy's Longbow, where one of the original bows is shown on the tiller. That would probably be as close as we will get to see how one of them were tillered.
When I see "replicas", I always wonder how close they are to the original measurements. Up till now, I have not even seen one bow that was made stricktly from measurements. If you guys know of any bow like this, let me know! Just following the general width of the originals will not do the job in seeing how they were tillered. Sure, we can make them stress the wood as evenly as possible, but that may be different from what they really were tillered like.
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If it was done to counter set, why not re-set the whole length of the bow?
I agree, making a bow to the same dimentions probably won't help much. I don't have the Hardy book, what's the tiller like?
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Oh, you really should get the book then. It's worth it's money. But I'll see if I can scan the picture next week. Don't hesitate to remind me though.
Don't know if words are good for describing the tiller, and it's some time since I saw it last time, so I won't try to. But it's not far from the new tiller of Alans 165/150# bow.
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Remember to scan the picture next week, thanks ;)
Alan's new tiller was still quite whip ended - maybe they really were like that. I really must get some of these books you keep quoting.
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Thats a fine looking Ash bow, congrats..
You'll find that lots of Ash varies in relation to it's usefullness as bow material. If you have the more Yellow ash, you are going to have next to no luck at all. If you are dealing with white ash however, it should yield a fine bow everytime.
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the tiller is outstanding! and the horn nocks really are something! :o
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Hi ...nice bow...i love ash wood...its a verry god wood for making bows...i wanna ask you whatt thickness have the bow in the handle area and to the mid limb iff you can....?? thks in advance...
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Nice. I would like slightly less give in the handle and like to see the tips come round a little more. And do I see a homage to the master in the style of the horn nocks?
Rod.
Think it looks really nice....got a good bend to it....I wish I could Tiller a Longbow that well....Photoshop don't lie.......
[attachment deleted by admin]
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wit my limited knowledge of bowmakeing i can say that u got your tiller nearly perfect, your knockwork is exelent, and that is a hell of a draw weight.
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Yess the tiller looks perfect...but i would realy love to know what thicknes have the bow at the handle,mid-limb and noks area.....thks .....i wanna try to make a bow like this and it will be helfuul to have an ideea of what dimension should i have in the handle, in the mid limb and to the nok or to the tips....i hope you can remeber this dimesnion and maybe send me a replay...thks in advance...
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Sag congrats. That's quite a bow, excellent tiller and beautiful horn tips. Ash has become my favorite wood, but I'm a looong way from 90#. Are the top and bottom limbs the same length, or do you make the upper longer?
Hrothgar
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Akila : its something like 34X27 mm at middle tapering to 18 mm tips (original taper) and then there is secondray taper something like 18 cm from each tip down to 11 mm nocks. The ash has SG around 0.85. Hope it helps.
Hrotgar : when I lay this out I start making bow perfectly symetrical and with alot of more wood then needed. That assures that I have to actually struggle to get the weight down, rather than ending underweight. As I tiler I observe properties of limbs and chose the one with weaker wood as upper. Then I position bowyers mark and arrowpass 1´´ up from geometricall middle of the lenght of the bow and adjust for slightly positive tiler at the end.
I have made 120# bow from the same wood, though with tiler not so nice.
Jaro
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All the bow you make Jaro ARE EXCELLENT my friend!! >:D 8) :D ;)...especially like your Warbows!!...are perfect...
Nice to see you around again mate.
I´ve built an Elm longbow ,ELB , specially designed for 32" draw length training. Next I´ll hope to do is to finish up that dense Ash Warbow I started more than a year ego
Remember that Jaro??.. :) ;)...
Glad to see you again!!
Cheers...
Asier.
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Hello Asier! How are you! This is 120# at 32´´ in ash.
(http://sweb.cz/hawkwind/120at32braced.jpg)
(http://sweb.cz/hawkwind/120at32.jpg)
Not as good, but not much follow, no frets either.
And this one is sort of 85# at 33´´
(http://sweb.cz/hawkwind/85na33.jpg)
(http://sweb.cz/hawkwind/85na33fulldraw.jpg)
I like that one best out of three.
Jaro
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Akila : its something like 34X27 mm at middle tapering to 18 mm tips (original taper) and then there is secondray taper something like 18 cm from each tip down to 11 mm nocks. The ash has SG around 0.85. Hope it helps.
Hrotgar : when I lay this out I start making bow perfectly symetrical and with alot of more wood then needed. That assures that I have to actually struggle to get the weight down, rather than ending underweight. As I tiler I observe properties of limbs and chose the one with weaker wood as upper. Then I position bowyers mark and arrowpass 1´´ up from geometricall middle of the lenght of the bow and adjust for slightly positive tiler at the end.
I have made 120# bow from the same wood, though with tiler not so nice.
Jaro
Hello and thks for your replay.....i just wanna ask you something..again ;D...sorry for this... you say 34x27mm t middle.....you are refering to mid-limb or to the middle of the bw( at the handle)...and im curiose whatt cros section do you chose for this type of wood??? you make that clasic D shape..or you make the belly wider???thks again for your help....i have some ash wood, and soon i wll start working on a bow like this....
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Hey Jaro!!! >:D >:D >:D >:D 8)... ;) :D....
Thanks so much for repiyling mate!!!...REALLY glad to ear from you.
These two last bows you posted are EXCELLENT!!..NO DOUBT!!... ;) :)...
Why do you like that last one best than the other two?..the tiller of this last bow looks like shoots better for flyght shooting because of it´s slightly eliptical tiller shape I guess!!...Isn´t it Jaro?... 8) 8)..
Anyways I like all these ones!!... :)..
Cheers fellow and keep us updated.
Asier.
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Akila the dimensions provided are at the handle - which means roughly middle of the bow.All those bows are oval, slightly more rounded on belly than back and somehow more flattish than if made out of yew.
Jaro
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Yes Asier, its because its omehow eliptical and it has best tips. Also very light in mass, though made from dense wood. It hasl best cast per pound from all three.
This is rather small yew bow of 60# at 31´´ also somehow eliptic. Made from coarse wood. Does it looks thick! This is only 72´´ NTN.
(http://sweb.cz/hawkwind/yew60at31.jpg)
Enjoy!
Jaro
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Přivítat zpátky Jaro! ;D
I remember these bows, very nice work mate!
I wanted to know, did you heat treat these bows? did not notice any markings on the belly so I assume you didn't, ja?
About the yew bow, very nice work!!!
Is this Czech yew? Looks to be mostly sapwood or is color just light?
Ok, this is not much related, but what inside diameter do you prefer on warbow horn nocks?
Again, as Asier said, its very nice to have you back mate! I hope to see you around more. :)
Alex
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Thks a lot...i just wanted to be sure....becose i have read a fiew topics aboute this bending thru the handle D bow, and there is a lot of people who are saying that the thickness of o bow like this should be equal to the width of the bow....this means that iff a bow is 34mm wide, he should also be 34mm thickk :-\...so this is why i asked you again if its in the handle or the mid limb....aniway thks a lot this realy helps me....i have an ash stave, and i did a test on it....i put a small piece of wood in the watter...and she is all most coverd in watter.....just 2or 3mm of wood its not under watter....you think its a good wood????...the only problem is that the stave has a little propelor twist....its not verry sever...but its not straight either....you think this should be a problem, if i want to make a 120# bow???thks a lot again... and what can i say...your bows lok gr8....i can only hope that i can make a bow like this from ash....aniway i will give it a try..
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Alex, the ash bows are all heat treated, but only the 85# got really deep scorch. The yew is rather coarse, I took the sapwood down to two rings, suppose its the picture. Its also somehow flattish. (Oval) Its what I do with any materiall which is less than perfect - I just flatten the same profile.
Akila - if you make a bow with the same width as thickness, you will have very unstable profile, unless its completelly round and that is far less the ideal solution. MR bows are between 1.1 and 1.2 (width/depth) ratio in the middle, but thanks to low width taper they are more flatter midlimb. Given the leeway BLBS gives, you can go as much as 1.6 ratio and that is quite forgiving to make.
Cut small block of your ash. Put in the water slowly. Take out. Measure the submerged part and the dry part. From that you can calculate SG. For example a a piece of SG 0.9 will have 9/10 of the block submerged.
Jaro
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More of that yew 60#. (Its been taken though, the pic above is from my customer.)
(http://sweb.cz/hawkwind/smallyewbow1.JPG)
(http://sweb.cz/hawkwind/smallyewbow2.JPG)
(http://sweb.cz/hawkwind/smallyewbow3.JPG)
(http://sweb.cz/hawkwind/smallyewbow4.JPG)
Jaro
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A little question about how to tiller a heavy Ash warbow Jaro...of around 100# at 32.
What do you recomend me to do , as slightly elipticall or full compass tillered bow??...
I know that elipticall tiller is bettes for flight or target shooting due to the lesser hands-shock the bow has, and in the other hand the fully compass tillered bow sould be better to launch heavy arrows, but..... what the heck...
What is nicer to shoot in your experience Jaro???
Thanks in advance!!
Asier.
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Well, with ash, slightly eliptical is better for cast and handshock elimination. I think. Its spongier in feel than yew or other harder woods.
Jaro
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Hi again....i started to work on my warr ash bow....its a dense piece of ash....i test it....the piece is 5,5cm long, and 5cm widh, and its all most float.... it only remain 3mm outside the watter surface so i think its a good thing right>>>?...i wanna ask you something....whatt diameter its the hall that you have made in the horn noks??? whatt diameter should have the horn for a 120# bow???i dont want to risk , and to make it to thinn...so this is why i ask you again ....thks a lot
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Thanks Jaro!!
Then a slightly eliptical tiller is my goal right now for my first warbow out of my dense Ash wood... :) ;)...
I´ll let you know how this bow is going on!!...
Cheers..
Asier.
PS: Akila, good luck with yours mate!!...3mm out of the water sound real good to me!!... :)...
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Akila 3cm out of water if your sample is 5 cm means only SG of about 0.4. Can you just calculate percentage ? Its 5 grader stuff.
The width and lenght of the sample does not matter. What matters is how much of it sinks into water and how much stays dry.
I would make the tips between 11 and 12 mm in diameter where the horn meets the wood, when making 120# and having dense ash.
Jaro
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;D...hi...i was saying 3mm not 3cm.....so i think its realy good stuff right????thks a lot for help....right now the tips are 18mm ....so its good ....i all most cut the bow to the dimensions.... and i will be ready for tillering very soon....it will be my first warr bow....im hoping to be ok...but i must say im a little afraid...but aniway its a learning process ;D...i think i will put some pictures soon....thks a lot for your help...
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I wass trying all day to find something conic to drill that hall....and it seams that its dificult to find a drill like this....i have found something but i have to modifed it....so i wanted to ask you how long should be the hall???? you think that 3,5cm its enugh, or it should be longer then 3,5cm????maybe 4cm long??? ohhh man...its so dificult to find aniting in this country :-\....i have to improvize all the time....
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You got to make that drill yourself. Just buy generic spade drill 16 mm and file it down to this shape. These drills are not hardened so much, nicholson fille will make it couple of minutes work.
If there is only as little of wood sticking out of water, then its good stuff, assuming that it is already well seasoned.
Jaro