Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: simson on May 28, 2013, 04:34:34 pm

Title: ERC design suggestions (edit:pics added)
Post by: simson on May 28, 2013, 04:34:34 pm
Got my hands on an ERC stave about 70" long and 2" wide. Three big dead knots / holes in it, not avoidable without grain violation (grain run out).

What is a matching design for ERC? ELB? Flat? ....

I think I can also split off a belly split, perhaps with 55"-60", about " thick.
Title: Re: ERC design suggestions
Post by: Jmilbrandt on May 28, 2013, 05:24:36 pm
All my erc bows have been flat bellies around 66" long. Seems to work well, I've never tried anything different with it though.
Title: Re: ERC design suggestions
Post by: autologus on May 28, 2013, 05:27:53 pm
How wide did you make your ERC bows, I have some staves that will be ready in a month or so I'm itching to get started to work on.

Grady
Title: Re: ERC design suggestions
Post by: CORIUS on May 28, 2013, 05:33:51 pm
What is erc?
Title: Re: ERC design suggestions
Post by: Joec123able on May 28, 2013, 05:35:39 pm
I would say flat belly is your best bet I did see someone posted a cedar ELB with rounded belly but I have a feeling that wouldn't last to long
Title: Re: ERC design suggestions
Post by: autologus on May 28, 2013, 05:40:27 pm
What is erc?

ERC = Eastern Red Cedar

Grady
Title: Re: ERC design suggestions
Post by: Jmilbrandt on May 28, 2013, 06:36:19 pm
Mine were 1" 5/8 all between 30 and 45 pounds.
Title: Re: ERC design suggestions
Post by: blackhawk on May 28, 2013, 08:31:59 pm
SINEW !!!!! ;)  8)
Title: Re: ERC design suggestions
Post by: Josh B on May 28, 2013, 09:06:38 pm
I would say flat belly is your best bet I did see someone posted a cedar ELB with rounded belly but I have a feeling that wouldn't last to long


What? ???  Care to explain that prediction?  Or better yet, when and what scenario do you think a rounded belly would be appropriate?  Josh
Title: Re: ERC design suggestions
Post by: AH on May 28, 2013, 09:07:32 pm
SINEW !!!!! ;)  8)

+1
Title: Re: ERC design suggestions
Post by: Joec123able on May 28, 2013, 09:11:43 pm
I would say flat belly is your best bet I did see someone posted a cedar ELB with rounded belly but I have a feeling that wouldn't last to long


What? ???  Care to explain that prediction?  Or better yet, when and what scenario do you think a rounded belly would be appropriate?  Josh


I guess you didn't read what I said. I said I saw a cedar ELB posted on here with a rounded belly
Title: Re: ERC design suggestions
Post by: Josh B on May 28, 2013, 09:19:48 pm
I read it alright.  The part that I'm referring to is why you don't think a rounded belly elb would last very long.  What I'm wondering is if you understand what advantage a rounded belly offers?  That is the clarification that I'm looking for.  Josh
Title: Re: ERC design suggestions
Post by: Joec123able on May 28, 2013, 09:29:42 pm
I read it alright.  The part that I'm referring to is why you don't think a rounded belly elb would last very long.  What I'm wondering is if you understand what advantage a rounded belly offers?  That is the clarification that I'm looking for.  Josh


Ohh well I'm trying to say I don't think cedar is the best candidate for an ELB let's face it it's not very strong under the extreme compression an elb would put it under
Title: Re: ERC design suggestions
Post by: SLIMBOB on May 28, 2013, 10:02:44 pm
Sinew...Curious on the defense of the flat v rounded belly as well.
Title: Re: ERC design suggestions
Post by: DavidV on May 28, 2013, 10:53:29 pm
I read it alright.  The part that I'm referring to is why you don't think a rounded belly elb would last very long.  What I'm wondering is if you understand what advantage a rounded belly offers?  That is the clarification that I'm looking for.  Josh


Actually it's the exact opposite, ERC has great compression strength but poor tension strength. Perfect candidate for ELB's.


Ohh well I'm trying to say I don't think cedar is the best candidate for an ELB let's face it it's not very strong under the extreme compression an elb would put it under
Title: Re: ERC design suggestions
Post by: blackhawk on May 28, 2013, 11:16:18 pm
Nuttin like talking out r arse with zero experience behind it.... 8)

I've done round,crowned,and flat bellies from long to shortbows with juniperus virginiana,and all did just fine because it is good in compression and highly elastic...its weak link is tension strength..and its lightweight wood.....and that's why sinew is a perfect marriage for it ;)   a properly designed sinewed juniperus virginiana is one sweeeeeet shooter.....I've done hickory backed,rawhide backed,and sinew backed...and sinee is by far my favorite backer for the stuff...the aforementioned backers will work just fine as well but not as good imho
Title: Re: ERC design suggestions
Post by: simson on May 29, 2013, 02:45:34 am
Thank you all for your interesting input. I will split the stave - and we will see.
Will post the first pics soon ....
Title: Re: ERC design suggestions (edit:pics added)
Post by: simson on May 29, 2013, 03:25:52 pm
This is the first time for me working with ERC.
This wood is incredible light, soft and bendy. The color is crazy a violet with creamy stripes, never seen something like that. To bad the fresh violet oxidates to a brownish pink after a while.
Now here are some pics where I am at the moment, every input is welcome

1. inner belly split
60" long, 1,5" wide, three holes - one very large, follows the grain sideways but ring violations on the back (could not avoid this - otherwise bow would be too short).
I have already cleaned the back and put on a shellac as protection. I have cut in pin nocks, but the first try with tillerstring affected marks in the soft wood. Therefore some bison horn (looking like black fingernails) were glued on.
Hope this one stays together.

2. main split
72" long, 1,5" wide, I accepted running out grain to get a knot free surface. Should I go for a elb profile?

In the first pic you see the two splits how they where laying in the stave (main split over belly split).
Third is a close up, same position.

Last pic is a special for blackhawk ( he had the idea!)

(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1305%20eastern%20red%20cedar%201/P1010598_zps8874d899.jpg)

(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1305%20eastern%20red%20cedar%201/P1010600_zps1f3126e8.jpg)

(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1305%20eastern%20red%20cedar%201/P1010599_zps099d9eb8.jpg)

(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1305%20eastern%20red%20cedar%201/P1010601_zpsa99d0306.jpg)

(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1305%20eastern%20red%20cedar%201/P1010602_zps09fd3878.jpg)
Title: Re: ERC design suggestions (edit:pics added)
Post by: Josh B on May 29, 2013, 04:23:42 pm
I would definitely recommend elb for the longer stave.  I would highly suggest backing both of them as it would appear that there is no sapwood remaining on either stave.  It has been my experience that erc heartwood is almost worthless in tension.  They are beautiful staves, I look forward to seeing what you get out of them.  Josh
Title: Re: ERC design suggestions (edit:pics added)
Post by: blackhawk on May 29, 2013, 04:36:53 pm
I'd say a rawhide backed longbow for the longer stave...and I'll even go out on a limb and say even sinew backing the long one if done right wood work well as well...just do a first course covering the whole back..and then two more courses down the center crown of the stave..and steam in some reflex before applying the sinew....the wood is so light and if done right with narrow outer limbs and some good reflex still after tillering I don't think it would affect slowing the cast down..its just a hunch as I've never done a long sinew backed one before,and I'm thinking out loud here....and id definitely sinew back the shorter one and flipping its tips ....I have used dry heat with erc ,but I find steam easier n safer to make bends/corrections with it...

Oh...and nice money shot  ;)  ;D
Title: Re: ERC design suggestions (edit:pics added)
Post by: BL on June 04, 2013, 05:53:22 pm
Informative post all around.  From the various other ERC posts I've seen, people made it sound like the wood was overly brittle in general.  If that were the case then a thinner, wider, flatter belly would make sense, right?  Perhaps that's where he was coming from.