Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => HowTo's and Build-a-longs => Topic started by: BowEd on September 10, 2013, 06:24:09 pm

Title: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: BowEd on September 10, 2013, 06:24:09 pm
OK fellas.I'm sure someone would like to see this.I've done it to at least 8 horns so far so I do have a a lot of confidence in the process.I have to use a drill press.I usually use a friends but have ordered a drill press for myself yesterday.I'll have to get more horn too because all I have right now are laminations done already.A bandsaw,small belt sander,heat gun,vice and a laser thermometer are needed too of which I already have.When I get everything together I will look this thread back up and start posting the pictures of a gemsbok horn going from a horn to two nice even thick laminations in under 2 hours of work.Be patient it might take a month I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.
Post by: JW_Halverson on September 10, 2013, 09:34:59 pm
Don't rush yourself, Ed. Take your time and get it right...like you usually do.  Looking forward to seeing the progress on this project!
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.
Post by: BowEd on September 11, 2013, 02:03:12 am
Got the horn ordered now too.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.
Post by: M-P on September 11, 2013, 02:56:44 am
Waiting with bated breath!   Ron
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.
Post by: BowEd on September 11, 2013, 11:25:02 pm
Hi Ron....So your a veterinarian surgeon?
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.
Post by: M-P on September 12, 2013, 02:19:27 am
Beadman,  Yup that's me.  Broken bones fixed, swallowed objects retrieved, etc.   Ron
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.
Post by: BowEd on September 12, 2013, 11:05:54 am
M-P....I used to visit the vet quite often when I was campaigning coonhounds in the hunts for about 25 years.Thousands and thousands of dollars spent but you guys are good angels for sure and it must be some very satisfying work for yourself MOST times.
Well I got the drill press here and just waiting on the horn to arrive.They're giving me a 9/17/13 arrival date so this build-along is'nt too far away.I hate to wonder how many pictures are going to be taken with this.Probably 20.......LOL.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.
Post by: M-P on September 12, 2013, 04:30:54 pm
I worked with tech once who talked about buying a Catahula Hound puppy while she lived in Fl.   Seems she drove way into the backwoods where the breeder was living in a rusty old trailer.  The dogs were kenneled out back in a modern, air-conditioned, shiny new barn.
She was impressed with the care shown to the dogs, but puzzled that there were no old dogs in the kennel.  She asked about this and was told (in a pronouced Cracker accent)  "These is workin dogs mam!  Some get lost and some torn up or drownt by coons, and some get snake bit and some get gator et.  Ain't none of them die of old age."
Ron
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.
Post by: BowEd on September 12, 2013, 07:42:54 pm
Yes your friend might get a handful of a dog to be a pet from that type of dog.Up north here with our coon,bear,cat, & coyote hunting a 12 to 14 year old dog is a rariety.Unless they are recognized as being outstanding reproducers.Frozen semen & AIing become a part of it too.It does'nt mean they are being mistreated any thay love what they do.Over that long a span of hunting I've become a sort of apprentice type vet myself recognizing things before they get out of hand.Inside and out.Always kept pennicillin,cephalexin,and sutures with me no matter where I hunted.They become family like any dog owner only they have a job.....LOL.It's a life style.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 12:35:12 pm
OK here is the first set of pics preparing this horn.This is just my way for now and if there's a quicker way I'd be glad to hear about it.This horn the more you make it work the better.That is, setting it into a highly reflexed design.Laminations of horn on regular bows that come in underweight can be done with compression strong wood lams just the same.I just like what some of these natural materials can do on a bow.
It needs to be heated and flattened yet and took a total of an hour and a half to get it this far.I said earlier that total time was under 2 hours.That was'nt quite correct.I had help of someone during the heat flattening phase then.By myself I would say a total of 4 hours would be more realistic.
This is starting with a 30" horn.With your gemsbok horns the shorter thicker ones are usually males.Your longer thinner ones are usually females.They can be found on ebay for under 30$.I just put horn on the working sections of the bows so I go for the thicker shorter ones and will end up with about 25" lamination from a 30" horn.More than enough.
OK.First here's a picture of the horn itself.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 12:36:50 pm
Next a showing of the ridges that need to be filed off with a farriers' rasp.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 12:37:53 pm
Rasping
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 12:39:31 pm
More rasping and the results.This took about a half hour.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 12:42:51 pm
Rasping done a look at it to see how straight iit is.It's ok to have an up and down bwnd with this but not a side to side bend.So this one had a little side ways bend in it,and your horn is nice and smooth the whole way.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 12:45:45 pm
I straighten these as much as possible before ripping them on the band saw.The halfs that come from this can be bent a little yet too but not very good at all after it is flattened and the 3/16" thickness I want.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 12:51:03 pm
Temperature of heat should ruin into or close to 300 degrees at least to bend this stuff and remember the thinner it is the quicker it gets to that temperature.I use a laser thermometer.Handy gadget.It will burn if your not careful.If it is not too deep it'll be ok.I wave the heat gun accross back and forth over a 3 to 4 inch area about 2" away.You have to get the heat to penetrate the thicker stuff and it's best to do that gradually.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 12:53:02 pm
After is is straightened I mark a chalk line along the side for it to be ripped length wise.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 12:54:14 pm
I rip it.This can be done with a hacksaw by hand too.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 12:55:10 pm
The result.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 12:56:24 pm
A little more heat straightening the halfs and the result.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 01:00:04 pm
Off to the drill press to reduce this horn from the inside curvature of the horn.I set the table of the drill press at 3/16" deep after the bit is in the chuck.Here is a pic of the bit.It is a 1/2" round chisel bit.Cost of 2$.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 01:02:47 pm
I push the half of horn along in the concave of the horn and it removes materiall exactly 3/16" deep.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 01:04:12 pm
More chiseling making sure it is done over all.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 01:05:17 pm
Check for depth to be sure.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 01:07:10 pm
The result.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 01:08:26 pm
Different picture of result showing the length also.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 01:19:24 pm
Today I will try to flatten these horn pieces and will post pictures of that process and the end result after sanding etc.One of the main reasons to get this an even thickness is so that you don't have thick spots on your horn that can result in the horn not geting hot enough and it cracking.Cracking sometimes even does occur yet but the goal is to have none.The cracks if not very deep have no ill effect on the integrity of the horns' strength if running length wise and in a straight line not running off the side of which I've never had it do that.The cracks can be filled with super glue or left since if it does crack it is usually on the inside and that side will be glued to the limb and get filled with glue anyway.
Leave your horn crowned on the outside.I will show you that later.
Till later......
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: Gus on September 18, 2013, 04:19:12 pm
Heck Yes Sir!!!

I'll be watching...

Thank You,

-gus
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 06:39:45 pm
OK.The job is done.Now I realize this thread is not for the low budget bowyer because of the powr tools used here but maybe they know a friend that has these and maybe someone that has these power tools would like to try this.
Generally 1/16" thick horn will give you 10 to 15 pounds at 1 and 3/8" wide....1/8" thick will give you 15 to 20 pounds.....3/16" will give you upwards of close to 30 pounds.This all depends on the amount of reflex you put horn into and if it's wider both of which will increase the poundage.These numbers I'm speaking of were on R/D bows 62" to 64" with only 2" of reflex induced.
First where I left off the horn was  taken to thickness of 3/16".Now there will be a square edge on each side of the horn.The inside corner edge needs to be scraped flat to meet the other outside edge.What this does is help the horn flatten out like say a butterfly spreading his wings when the horn gets squashed flat between the jaws of the vice.I have a 5" by 10" carpenters' vice,On a regular vice with smaller jaws 2 large channel irons can be put on the jaws to create a wider surface.
OK first picture is of the scraping of that inside edge.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 06:40:58 pm
Finished look
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 06:47:37 pm
Ok.Now we'll start heating the horn.I usually only heat 3" approximately at a time using a chalk line to mark the area.Wave it always and never stay in one spot long.I'm usually about 2 to 3 inches away from the horn.I started using the laser thermometer but after a while using a heat gun you get a feel for exactly how long you should heat it.I get it into the vice within 10 seconds if I can.I heat it a little over 300 degrees that way it gives me time if I bumble.Working with two people is a lot faster and I'm doing this one alone.Which is OK.I've done it before.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 06:48:29 pm
Result
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 06:52:29 pm
I make another chalk line below that 3" and move on.It will cool rather quickly .Within 5 minutes.It stays flattened.Horn gets like plastic when it gets hot.Always watch for any browning that might occur.Don't brown it too much.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 06:53:38 pm
Farther.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 06:54:38 pm
Side view.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 06:55:44 pm
Almost done.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 06:57:48 pm
Oops a little crack on the end.No matter there is still plenty of length here.Right now 25".
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 07:00:16 pm
Now both are done and it's over to my spindle sander.ve my spindle sander.I flatten them from the inside of the horn then get my width.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 07:03:28 pm
I cut a little off of each one after sanding.I left myself with 22" long.A little over 1and1/2" wide on big end and a little over an inch on the small end.Plenty for even a 64" bow.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 07:05:14 pm
No twist and flat as Aunt Jamimas pancakes.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 07:07:22 pm
Hope you can read the thickness measurements but it's 3/16" thick 75% of it's length.Not bad for me.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 07:08:40 pm
My old cheapy plastic calipers.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 07:09:59 pm
Another view
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 07:11:09 pm
And another of the other side.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 07:15:22 pm
Well that's it.No more pictures.These laminations are thick enough for an 80 to 100 pound horn bow.They can be grooved to.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 07:21:13 pm
Or left flat with no grooves.Each will work on horn bows.To put them on regular self bows they don't need to be grooved.Just roughened up with lines from a hack saw blade and a slow setting epoxy used or hide glue too.Either c clamped every two inches for sure or wrapped with an inner tube wrap.Here is the results of one of my bows.My maple bow.I love this bow.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 07:22:07 pm
Side view.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: Gus on September 18, 2013, 07:36:46 pm
This is Exactly what I was looking for!

Thank You Sir!
I have all the tools except for the Laser and Spindle Sander.
And I'll be hunting them soon.

:)

-gus
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 07:58:25 pm
The laser thermometer will be chaep.The table top spindle sander if brand new runs about 130$ from Grizzly.Have fun.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: BowEd on September 18, 2013, 08:21:06 pm
Did a weight check on these laminations.They weight 6.9 ounces or 195 grams together.One weighs 1488 grains.The other weighs 1520 grains.A 32 grain difference.Not bad for eye balling it in my world sanding and all.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: BowEd on September 19, 2013, 09:03:52 am
What you soon realize making bows with horn,sinew and wood is the amazing properties they bring to the table.To me well worth the effort.You learn things that carry over to making wooden bows only.Your skills get sharpened even more if only trying one.To make these though it helps immensly if you've  made at least a few dozen self bows with good success and a dozen or so sinewed bows too.That's to make horn bows.To just beef up a self bow is'nt that big a task to do.Myself I pay more attention to the percentages of depth of the surface area doing the work.The thinner the core gets the less it works but to only give stability and does no stretching or compressing.They are made to last a lifetime.Most guys making these self bows have more than enough bows hanging around and if you want to challenge yourself give it a try.I've shot out in the rain for hours with my maple with no loss of draw weight or cast in 90 degree heat.Very durable.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: M-P on September 20, 2013, 03:50:49 am
Wow,  You sure worked fast once that horn arrived!  The result looks great.  I've got the horn bow bug bad, so this will come in handy.   Ron
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: BowEd on September 20, 2013, 10:57:06 am
Yea I was surprised myself too.Some thought out plans go quicker than others.It helps if you've done it a few times before.
I had a fella bugging me to try to get some whale baleen.He thought it was more dense than gemsbok & so much longer too.I investigated it and it has to come from a native of Alaska[Which is the only place I tried.Could be other places but I'm afraid it'll get expensive] like an eskimo.It's pretty well protected.Never tried water buffalo but I'm sure it's doable but a little more expensive.I think my way of heating flat would take the twist out of any water buffalo horn too.Bison horn most times will need butt joints and sinew wraps and wonderful little powerhouse bows have been made on this site too.I here water buffalo horn is denser than gemsbok horn or finer grained so to speak.Hav'nt used it yet though.Gemsbok horn is a horn that is plenty dense enough for bows,it's cheaper,and easier to work with in my opinion.Really I'm a fledgling in this horn bow making,but after a dozen or so made you get a good feel for what you are doing.
Now sheep horn I've never actually made a bow out of.Just used it for overlay tips etc.It seems to be plenty dense.More so than gemsbok horn.Maybe more brittle yet too.But I've seen sinewed sheep horn bows made on this site that are phenominal.Now if you want an education about getting twist out of horn there's the place.Amazing to say the least.
Bone and antler come into the picture here too but will need butt joints & most likely sinew wraps also.Still doable though as seen on this site too.That's why I like gemsbok no wraps or butt joints.
Shorter more reflexed bows get the best out of horn,but it can chrysal too like wood if put into too much extreme a design with poor tillering but pretty rare.
I'm sure there's someone on this site that can shed a little more light yet on the subject of horn on bows or for bows.
It can seem like an over whelming task but like I said earlier if you want to challenge yourself give it a try.We're all here to learn.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: paulsemp on September 20, 2013, 11:07:22 am
thank you for doing this. It's one thing that's definitely on my bucket list one of these days
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: BowEd on September 20, 2013, 11:39:33 am
Your welcome.
One thing that stops a lot of people yet too is the fact that it can take 6 months for this sinew to cure.That's just on sinewed horn bows.OK...so what.What I do is just make more self bows inbetween the wait.Does'nt slow my stride down any in making bows.
To me woods to be used with horn should be elastic,tension strong diffouse pourous white woods.Ironwood and maple at the top of my list.Both woods air dried too not kiln dried.Just my opinion here and what I've read more so than what I've experienced.Although I did try a maple core kiln dried and thought it was too brittle.Using osage for this is too much of a wash, too dense and the fact that osage can have an oil most time that inhibits good glueing.Osage is such a wonderful wood that I feel it can stand on it's own alone in almost any design.
My first horn bow curing here has a ring pourous hickory core but the early wood was like just dotted lines.Hopefully my prep work before glue ups have been good.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: BowEd on September 21, 2013, 09:46:57 pm
OK here's a picture of a horn bow ready for sinew.Horn and core grooved and glued with hide glue.The handle glued on.The limbs are width and thickness dimensioned.The core is 40" long so is the horn in two laminations.The V splice is 4" deep for the levers.The tip I hav'nt decided yet how long for it to be but right now it's 5.5" long.Which makes it a 50" TTT.Probably 48" NTN.Core is ironwood as is the handle.Levers are red elm.Horn is gemsbok.I'll see if I can add pictures as this progresses.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: Gus on September 24, 2013, 06:01:20 pm
Yes Sir,

That looks down right Sexy...

-gus
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: toomanyknots on October 04, 2013, 11:31:47 pm
Excellent build along! Thank you!
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: BowEd on October 05, 2013, 11:15:50 am
Your welcome toomanyknots...My intentions are to create more discussions of the use of horn on this site so I have someone elses viewpoints to relate to and learn from.I'm happy it's been allowed to stay on this thread by the PA moderaters.After all it is natural materials I figure.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: Pat B on October 07, 2013, 01:35:26 pm
Nice build along, Ed. I have horn(water buff) sinew and wood. Now I need the time to get started. I want to make a Plains style horn bow.
 James Parker told me that Urac works well on horn/wood combo so that is another glue option for you.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: BowEd on October 08, 2013, 01:35:47 pm
Thanks Pat.I know your no stranger to posting build-a-longs.I don't doubt other glues can be used.I can just vouch for hide glue and smooth on epoxy.There really is a broad choice out there.One key thing to remember I think is to get the glue line thin without starving the joint dry.That's why sizing is so very important.Too thick a glue line and it becomes too brittle.Keep it flexible.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: M-P on October 08, 2013, 09:54:45 pm
Beadman,    My horn bow experience is still limited, but I, too, have had successful bows with Hide Glue and Epoxy, so I'll second you on that.   The one korean bow that delaminated on me delam'd  at the horn / core interface but the glue showed no signs of cracks.  It was a rather thick glue line ( as is typical of Korean bows) so I don't think sinew glue is very prone to cracking.  Surface prep to remove all contaminates is (in my opinion) more important.
Ron
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: BowEd on October 09, 2013, 10:29:43 pm
Yea M-P keeping things free of grease,oil,and dust is a must.My horn bow experience is limited too.Especially asiatic types anyway.After the horn and wood core is grooved before glue up I don't handle it without wearing cotton gloves and still resurface it fresh before glue up yet.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: M-P on October 11, 2013, 12:20:24 pm
Yea M-P keeping things free of grease,oil,and dust is a must.My horn bow experience is limited too.Especially asiatic types anyway.After the horn and wood core is grooved before glue up I don't handle it without wearing cotton gloves and still resurface it fresh before glue up yet.

Yeah, I haven't always done that, but I'm starting to get real paranoid about the whole issue of clean faying surfaces.    Ron
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: BowEd on October 11, 2013, 10:02:06 pm
Just with the two bows I've prepared so far I didn't let much more than a day go by to avoid oxidation of the surface.After resurfacing it and after sizing it.I glue it together with the rope cinching tool.Do all of this with cotton gloves on.I think if it works out that if a person can't get to it right away you can wrap it in saran wrap possibly.You keep sizing it letting it dry between sizings  till it looks like glass when it's dry.Usually at least 3 to 4 times.That can be done in an afternoon.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: BowEd on October 12, 2013, 06:01:55 am
I've just read a post on the PP site displaying the trials a fellow had to go through for a successful horn bow.I am humbled here,although in my defense I did do everything according to Jeff Schmidts method and will find out in January whether my curing horn bow is a success or not.I doubt very much whether I will be able to hit a home run my first time at bat.....LOL.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: BowEd on November 13, 2013, 09:57:59 am
If you wish to discuss making horn laminations or the progress of these horn bows of mine find me on the PP site.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: BowEd on July 26, 2016, 08:42:32 am
It was a ways back there on page 7.
Title: Re: Getting horn laminations from gemsbok horn.[Pics added]
Post by: Bob Barnes on February 23, 2019, 08:16:13 am
Just giving this great thread a bump... thanks Ed.  You might post a picture of one of those bows now...   :OK