Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Prarie Bowyer on November 15, 2013, 01:37:08 pm

Title: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: Prarie Bowyer on November 15, 2013, 01:37:08 pm
I saw on another tread that "flax" could be used in lieu of sinew  ???.  That got me thinking nad as i'm looking around for a souce I discovered that there is also a spinable weavable bamboo product and something called "Ramie"

"Ramie fibre is white with a silky lustre, similar to flax in absorbency and density but coarser (25-30 microns). One of the strongest natural fibres, it has low elasticity and dyes easily".

Can anyone enlighten me on the process of backing with these plant fibers?  What types are best, and how to get them? I'm guessing prespun raw unbleached fibers.  What about the gluing process and how much to use?
 ;D


thoughts?
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: Prarie Bowyer on November 15, 2013, 07:21:20 pm
Well??/  anybody?
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: Peacebow_Coos on November 15, 2013, 07:48:29 pm
You might be able to find something on a google search for this I seem to remember a flax backed bow a while back.  I've never used fibers but from what I've gleaned off here and paleoplanet you can use just about any fiber (the tougher the better depending on the wood)  and lay a layer of glue down to size the back.  Then apply like sinew, dip bundles in glue and brickwork it on there.  I don't think any fiber could be used as sinew is for extra draw length and weight/performance but for an added layer of protection and some moderate weight gain.  Sinew is king ;)  If you're gonna use fibers get them as raw as possible and try it out I'd like to see what this ramie fibre is all about, I just sanded a bamboo backing strip down today and was amazed by the dust/fibrous mass that was produced.  Bamboo is tough, I don't see why it wouldn't work.  Try Titebond 2 or 3.
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: TimBo on November 15, 2013, 10:41:22 pm
If you have The Bowyer's Bible, Vol. 4, there is a good section on flax (and lots of other backings) in the Design and Performance Revisited chapter (pg. 134-135).  "Flax, hemp, dogbane, nettle, ramie, milkweed, and other similarly strong vegetable fibers all behave much the same", it says.  A flax and/or linen canvas backing is on my list of things to try, along with making flax or milkweed strings.  Hopefully someone with more flax experience will come along and jump in.
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: steve b. on November 15, 2013, 10:55:59 pm
What TimBo said. 

My opinion based on what I've read and seen it that the plant fibers, overall, are best, as they are much lighter than sinew and very strong.  Again, based on my experience, sinew is really good for only one thing from an efficiency standpoint--keeping short bows alive.

I have a few miles of Jute that I am going to try as backing asap.
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: PatM on November 16, 2013, 01:27:37 am
Rather than laying these fibers down in the typical fairly haphazard manner I would attempt to make a reconstituted unidirectional fiber backing with any of the  fibers listed and set them in Epoxy.
 I would make some sort of shallow channel with a non-stick surface and fill it carefully with fiber and glue laid in place and tensioned and then place a compression strip on top of the channel and compress it.
 After it cures it could be popped out and applied to a flat stave with some reflex.
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: campx on November 17, 2013, 11:07:55 pm
Not to toot my own horn, but last week I finished a bow for my daughter, and I used milkweed fibre in a strip down the back, glued on with TB2.  I don't have a scientific formula, but it is strong stuff.  Real strong.
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: Prarie Bowyer on July 17, 2014, 11:39:09 am
I found two sections on plant fibers in the TBB.  There is a concern that Flax while strong as nails could possibly overpower a bow?  (see volume one) so it must be used sparingly.

It looks like on the test pine bow it was spun into bow length treads?  I'm thinking of spinning it, or bamboo (which is not as strong apparently) into the same then cutting it in sinew lengths and putting it down like sinew.

Also a verry elusive reference to Nylon backing that performes in streatch similar to Sinew.  Nylon is also available in roving that can be spun into thread.

Additionaly the "China Grass" from volume 2 is actually Raimie.  Rated the strongest.  FWIW. 

Some of these can be spun into strings.

I'm going to try the nylon and flax.


Where did you get the milk weed?
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: campx on July 17, 2014, 11:48:40 am
Milkweed grows in abundance around here.  Gonna go cut a bunch of it soon.  The last stuff I tried stripping out was from dried out stems, kind of tough going.  We'll see how it goes, in green form......
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: Prarie Bowyer on July 17, 2014, 01:33:44 pm
kinda how flax is gotten.  rot the weed and pull the fibers out.
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: JackCrafty on July 17, 2014, 02:37:12 pm
 8)
Good thread.  I've spend many hours wrestling with plant fibers instead of sinew and here are my observations so far:

ALL the plant fibers I've tried will stack sooner than sinew and will not allow draw long lengths without damaging the back or the belly.

The flax I tried was quite weak and I think it was due to the fact that it was retted too long. The other fibers were obtained from commercial twine or cord: jute, sisal (which is actually the same as agave), cotton, hemp, and manila fiber.

Nylon may be the answer but I still haven't found a good way to glue down individual strands as opposed to nylon fabric.  Some say hot melt glue will work well with nylon but I haven't tried that yet.  Seems like it would be very difficult over a large area, so I put the idea on the back burner.

Hide glue seems to work best.  Knox glue also works.   Fish glue is too brittle unless you make your own from fish bladders.  Titebond also works well but it does not spring back as fast as hide glue.  It will eventually pull itself back into shape, though.

Seasoning and processing my own fibers has always worked best for me and anything that can be used for a bowstring can be used for backing.  And I never cut down long fibers before I put them on a bow.  I put them down in the longest strands I can get and I toss out the short fibers.  I also found that combing the fibers throughout the process makes a BIG difference in how they lay down.

As a final note, all fibers dry in different ways and some will not lie flat when drying unless you wrap them down.  So, as a default procedure, I wrap everything.
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: Carson (CMB) on July 17, 2014, 03:01:56 pm
Interesting observation on the stacking of plant fiber vs sinew, Jackcrafty.  The bow I glued silk fibers on is long overbuilt American flatbow of yew.  I am wondering if plant or silk fiber/hideglue works best in long-limb designs.    I guess i need to get that bow bending and find out :)
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: JackCrafty on July 17, 2014, 03:16:51 pm
Silk is a protein so I don't think it stacks like plant fiber.  I don't have any experience with silk so I don't know for sure.    :-\
The fact that sinew was used in the orient as opposed to silk (where it is plentiful) makes me think that even silk is not as good as sinew.
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: Prarie Bowyer on July 17, 2014, 04:29:01 pm
I'm looking heavily at ramie - china grass, flax or nylon roving material. 
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: JackCrafty on July 17, 2014, 10:57:21 pm
Ramie doesn't sound like a good material for backing bows.  I wouldn't use it personally because of its low elasticity.
From Wikipedia: 
Because of its high molecular crystallinity, ramie is stiff and brittle and will break if folded repeatedly in the same place; it lacks resiliency and is low in elasticity and elongation potential.[5]

[5] Kadolph SJ, Langford AL. Textiles (9th ed.). Upper Saddle River, NJ: Prentice Hall; 2001.
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: Prarie Bowyer on July 18, 2014, 07:57:56 am
Ramie doesn't sound like a good material for backing bows.  I wouldn't use it personally because of its low elasticity.
From Wikipedia: 
Because of its high molecular crystallinity, ramie is stiff and brittle and will break if folded repeatedly in the same place; it lacks resiliency and is low in elasticity and elongation potential.[5]

[5] Kadolph SJ, Langford AL. Textiles (9th ed.). Upper Saddle River, NJ: Prentice Hall; 2001.

Interesting.  It is listed as China Grass in TBB vol. 1 (under backings) and vol2(natural strings).

Here is a question, what is the most elastic plant fiber?
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: burn em up chuck on July 18, 2014, 09:55:37 am
    processing bamboo fibers maybe a factor to consider, but remember bamboo is a powerful backing.
    at harbor freight i found flax twine. maybe a source.

                                                                            chuck
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: Prarie Bowyer on July 18, 2014, 01:40:16 pm
most of the bamboo raimie is made from the inner portion.. the strength is in the outer portion.
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: JackCrafty on July 18, 2014, 06:33:47 pm
As far as I can tell, the most elastic plant fiber is coconut hair from unripe coconuts or White Coir.  The unripe distinction is EXREMELY important because the brown stuff on coconuts at the store is useless.  (Look at the Elongation at Breakage %.  Wood is less than 2% if I remember correctly.)

The best overall fiber, in my opinion, is sisal or agave fiber. The TBB states that this is one of the weakest fibers but I have found this to be completely false (not the only falsehood in the TBB).  The worst quality sisal will outperform the worst linen fibers (in terms of elongation before breaking).  I like to look at the worst properties of the fibers because these are what we usually get from the store or commercial sources.

I have attached a chart for your inspection and you can interpret the data as you wish.   ;D

Source: http://www.indiantextilejournal.com/articles/FAdetails.asp?id=3732
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: Prarie Bowyer on July 19, 2014, 01:57:27 pm
Cool!  Are you getting sisal from the cord?

How are you applying it?

And the coir?  Where do you get that?  Seems like it would be hard to overpower a bow with that.

Applied like sinew in tb2-3?
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: Prarie Bowyer on July 20, 2014, 01:12:22 am
Coir can be found marketed as "hop twine".   But looking at the stats above. I think you are correct,  sisal may be the way to go.   Are there similar stats for sinew strength and stretch?   I'm wondering if there is an plant alternative.


I'm reading the tbb on backings and thinking about weaker woods like mulberry, hack berry etc.
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: JackCrafty on July 22, 2014, 12:57:38 am
I apply fiber backing in the same way as sinew, with Titebond or hide glue.  I get sisal from thick twine that I order online.

I don't know where to get good quality Coir fiber but a quick google search yielded a couple sources for coir rope with the cheapest being ebay.  I've never used Coir so I can't give you any advice there.
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: Prarie Bowyer on July 24, 2014, 01:12:17 pm
Do you cut it to roughly sinew size lengths or do you leave it as long as possible?

How do you determine the thickness or are you just putting one layer as thin as possible?
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: 4giveme on July 24, 2014, 03:29:15 pm
Prarie,
I would definitely leave the fibers in as long I could get. I mean then it's less seams that I have to deal with. That's IMO anyway....
Tommy
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: JackCrafty on July 25, 2014, 02:19:03 pm
Yep, leave the fibers as long as possible.  And build up the layer to and average of 1/16" (after it's dry) as a minimum.  Build up layers near the handle but leave the tips thinner than 1/16".  A cloth backing is only about 1/32" of an inch thick at the most, so you don't need much.
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: dbb on July 26, 2014, 08:29:38 am
I found this searching for ramie.Native to East Asia and commonly known as China grass, ramie (Boehmeria nivea) is a flowering plant of the nettle family.
I know Nettles make a fair bowstring but is the same low stretch property that makes a good string what makes it less good for backing?
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: toomanyknots on July 26, 2014, 11:33:16 am
I found two sections on plant fibers in the TBB.  There is a concern that Flax while strong as nails could possibly overpower a bow?

I've used nettle fiber (similar to flax with little to no stretch) and it is like bamboo x 100, it will really crush the belly if you don't have some good bowwood. One thing I would recommend is do NOT use titebond for the glue, hide glue is the way to go. Titebond was a horrible pairing with a fiber backing I did, it was hard to work with, heavy, has no spring back or reflex when drying. In fact I think it is just as bad to use with a sinew backing, and I can never understand when people will sinew back with titebond.
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: toomanyknots on July 26, 2014, 11:55:53 am
What TimBo said. 
sinew is really good for only one thing from an efficiency standpoint--keeping short bows alive.
I have a few miles of Jute that I am going to try as backing asap.

(Fair warning, the following is just my opinion and is not meant to be taken too awful seriously or personally in any way, :) )

With all due respect, sinew is resilient more so than rubber, making it recover it's original condition after being stretched in tension much much more than any other backing. This absolutely adds to performance when used effectively, typically by reflexing the unstrung bow, adding significantly to the early draw weight (while smoothing out the force draw curve), and in effect transferring more energy to the arrow than a bow with less early draw weight / a more uphill force draw curve. And although other materials can of course be used to the same effect via perry reflexing in a laminate, sinew is the only backing material (although I think wood backings will to a degree) that will actually pull itself back into reflex, lessening the responsibility of the belly to regain the originial unstrung profile. To say that the added weight of sinew brings any sinewed bow to a disadvantage off rip is ignoring 1000s of years of bowyers effectively and efficiently using sinew both for hunting and war, from one continent to next, from hemisphere to the other.
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: Prarie Bowyer on July 26, 2014, 07:56:39 pm
I wish there was an alternative to sinew that workes the same. 

It is working with the hide glue that has me hesitant to do any sine wing....but I guess it is coming.

Interesting that tb didn't work well.  Did you use 1 or 2.


Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: JackCrafty on July 27, 2014, 03:55:08 pm
Try the Titebond with the sinew on a thin scrap piece and bend it (type 1 and 2).  It won't pull the piece into reflex, that's true: only hide glue does that.  The greatest drawback with hide glue is the drying/curing time.  It can take weeks or months.  Titebond will cure in a few days.

Anyways, bend the test piece and watch how it snaps back.  It will snap back quickly at first and then very slowly go back to it's original straightness (unless you caused some set).  Try not to cause any set at first.  Then bend it until it brakes.  The sinew/titebond combination will bend and stretch A LOT before it breaks (if it does).  The wood will break and collapse way before the sinew is affected.  That's why some people like it.  That and the fact that TB 2 is water resistant.
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: Prarie Bowyer on August 12, 2014, 01:53:36 am
Do you have any experience with the nylon backing as bent ironed in tbb?  Is that coming from twine?

I'm considering using that on a trial also.  Possibly cable bow.
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: JackCrafty on August 12, 2014, 07:16:18 pm
Nope.  No experience with nylon backing of any type.
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: George Tsoukalas on August 12, 2014, 07:39:00 pm
I've used and like silk, burlap and linen. Not the artificial burlap though. Jawge
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: Artus on February 04, 2019, 02:00:39 pm
Hello guys,

thats an interesting topic. If you use silk fibers, does that look like this?
http://www.wollezwerg.de/epages/61869375.sf/de_AT/?ObjectPath=/Shops/61869375/Categories/Seidenfasern/Maulbeer-Seide

Also I´m interested, if the sisal is likely to overpower the belly.

Thanks
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: gfugal on February 05, 2019, 10:19:25 pm
I am attempting to "repair" a bow with flax. It's still in the works but I treated the fine flax fibers like sinew. however, you need to 1) make the hide glue much thicker, 2) use a thick initial sizing coat before adding any plantfiber and 3) soak the fiber in water than in the glue before laying it down. If you don't soak it first, it will soak up the little glue on the exterior, taking in its moisture since it is so dry and preventing enough to remain outsid to glue it down. This is probably more important with finer processed plant fibers. Otherwise I treated it the same as sinew. However, I would say the hide glue did not provide any shrinking benefit like I hoped, like it does with sinew, so Iwould say just use titebond unless you want the option to remove the fibers for reuse.
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: Artus on February 06, 2019, 01:45:51 pm
Thanks!

Have you made experiences with sisal?
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: willie on February 06, 2019, 06:12:12 pm
sisal backing site:http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/

can be an effective way to search the forum. the top result from joachimM might be helpful.

It is my opinion that just about anything used as a backing can overpower a belly, if used to excess
amount being as important as what kind

the link in reply 18 above is good reading
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: Artus on February 10, 2019, 02:03:32 pm
Thanks!

I get your point but some backings are more likely to overpower a belly. I heard that hemp should only be used on wood, that is very strong in compression strength for example.
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: willie on February 11, 2019, 05:53:07 pm
yes, very stiff or strong backings like flax or glass only need a very little to overpower
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: txdm on February 12, 2019, 10:43:01 am
Quote
Titebond was a horrible pairing with a fiber backing I did, it was hard to work with, heavy, has no spring back or reflex when drying.

What's the general consensus on how Titebond III (3) performs in this respect compared to I and II?

I'm also interested in if anyone has seen any benefit to backing with paper or plant fiber (espeially sisal) and knox or hide glue instead of Titebond III.
Title: Re: Plant Fiber Backing Info Needed.
Post by: gfugal on February 19, 2019, 09:04:11 pm
Quote
Titebond was a horrible pairing with a fiber backing I did, it was hard to work with, heavy, has no spring back or reflex when drying.

What's the general consensus on how Titebond III (3) performs in this respect compared to I and II?

I'm also interested in if anyone has seen any benefit to backing with paper or plant fiber (espeially sisal) and knox or hide glue instead of Titebond III.

I tried hide glue. It soaked it up like it was a sponge. To combat that I find making the glue pretty vicious helped. you also had to use more of it. It worked but I would say that it didn't have the springiness like sinew and hide glue do. I don't know whether the "heavy", and no "spring back or relex when drying" was not the fault of the titebond but of the fiber backing. It's just not going to behave like sinew.