Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: ScottRoush on January 15, 2014, 11:40:42 am
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Hi folks.. I think this is my first post on here. It's been a while since I've done any bowyering but I've lately decided that I need a heavy draw English longbow. I have 10 bows under my belt.. mostly r/d bamboo backed ipe or tigerwood and one beautiful shooting osage self bow. But no experience with D profiles or full circle tiller.
My current project is 78 inches long with 1/4" hickory backing and tigerwood belly. At least I THINK it's tigerwood.. as it has a more reddish cast to it than ipe. I bought the board from local builder's supply and it was left over from a decking project. I've made other very nice bows from the same board.
Anyway... the main issue is that I've followed some layout plans for Mary Rose warbows in the 100-120 pound class in terms of thickness and profile taper. But... I've never tillered a D-shape profile before and am wondering how I should proceed. Right now the outer limbs are moving and am just starting to see some movement through the grip. But I simply can't brace it to move to short string tillering. Even two of us couldn't do it using a stringer. Still way too heavy despite being pretty close to published dimensions. I believe the issue is that I have not removed enough wood to complete a rounded profile of the belly. Here is where I am:
(http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj61/The_Roushs/_SAR0072_zps4fd09d4f.jpg) (http://s269.photobucket.com/user/The_Roushs/media/_SAR0072_zps4fd09d4f.jpg.html)
(http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj61/The_Roushs/_SAR0078_zps5c8fa684.jpg) (http://s269.photobucket.com/user/The_Roushs/media/_SAR0078_zps5c8fa684.jpg.html)
(http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj61/The_Roushs/_SAR0073_zps45e64c6f.jpg) (http://s269.photobucket.com/user/The_Roushs/media/_SAR0073_zps45e64c6f.jpg.html)
(http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj61/The_Roushs/_SAR0076_zps32ad54dd.jpg) (http://s269.photobucket.com/user/The_Roushs/media/_SAR0076_zps32ad54dd.jpg.html)
Anyway.. I don't want to blow this as I don't have a lot of time for fun stuff like this any more. I also have a Pacific yew stave on the way and I want to get a better understanding of D-profile tillering before I move on to that. My assumption is that I probably just need to remove wood just beyond the grip and leave the outer limbs alone.
Also..these are some measurements I took along one 38" limb starting with center (measurement in inches)-- Thickness: 1.04, 1.03, 0.97, 0.91, 0.89, 0.82, 0.71, 0.54 Width: 1.38, 1.36, 1.32, 1.22, 1.12, 1.02, 0.8, 0.56 The first 4 measurements were spaced about 4 inches and then the spacing went up from there.
Any advice???
edit: It has just recently occurred to me that the rough dimensions were taken from self bow designs rather than backed/tropical hardwood. So.... I'm assuming those numbers are too hefty for my project....
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I won't comment on where you should go from here as I've never worked with laminated bows, but using dimensions taken from European yew warbows won't work on laminated warbows. You can't even use the Mary Rose dimensions on American yew as it has quite different properties. You also have to change the shape of both belly and back as using a Mary Rose cross section won't work either. At least, that's my understanding of it.
For a laminated hardwood bow with the same draw weight you're going to end up a good amount smaller in terms of physical dimensions and mass than a European yew self bow.
That doesn't help much now, I know! I would get a copy of Making A Laminated English Warbow DVD if it were me, as all the dimensions and every aspect of shaping and tillering is featured on there. Or wait for somebody who knows what they're doing to help out!
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Thank you WillS... Yes. That is what occurred to me and I don't know what I was thinking from the beginning. As I alluded to.. It's been about three years since I've done any bow making and I just wasn't using my head.
I think though.. at this point, dimensions aside, I need some help on bowyering circle tiller d-shape. But.. I believe my next step is going to be removing some wood in just beyond the grip and see how things go from there.
I started this project as practice for a Pacific yew stave that I have coming.. but in retrospect it might not really help! Although I'm hoping the general principles involved with D-shape tillering and full compass would still be the same...
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Well.... If it was me, I'd leave everything and pull it further. You don't want the middle moving any more yet, the middle only wants to start moving towards the end of the draw. It looks fairly even so take it further and see what happens. What's the draw weight as it is now, and what's the goal draw weight?
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I'm shooting for 100 - 110. I don't know what the draw is.. I don't have a scale anymore. But I just started cutting a 2x4 to sit on a regular bathroom scale. I have a feeling it is over 200 right now. :-) I can't even come close to bracing it.
I just too fairly uniform amount of material from the bottom and rounded the belly more. It is now starting to behave like a bow within human capabilities.
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With heavy bows you need to be monitoring the weight constantly. It's so easy to come in under weight, and with some woods and various tillering styles the early draw weight can feel massive yet the actual measurement of draw weight at 32" can be surprisingly low, making it feel like 150# for the first 10" or so, and yet actually only 100# at full draw. Or of course the reverse!
With a light bow this doesn't happen as often, so before you carry on I'd recommend getting a good quality heavy scale. Then you can pick a draw weight, and pull to that weight every time, removing wood evenly until the bow comes back 32" still at that weight.
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Okay.. but how in the world do you brace it!!! :o :laugh: Two of us couldn't even come close! And I would think 100 pounds should be almost do-able by the push-pull method no? I've never handled a bow like that.. so not sure what to expect that regard!
But you are right.. I need to find myself a scale asap.
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Using a stringer, and the right technique, you can brace 160# without too much struggle. I don't use push/pull as I can't justify the risk of damaging the bow, same as the step-through. Once you're over 100# it should be a stringer only.
What string are you using? It might be too short? Or you're working with a 200# bow... Without a scale you'll never know ;)
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oops... push pull = step through in that post. My string was 2" short of the end of the bow. Based on stuff I'm hearing and coming to understand... I was just way too thick for my materials. I will see if I can get a long string weight using my bathroom scale... until I can find a better option.
Thanks for the help on this...
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You've got a solid looking tiller setup, so perhaps a better option would be to take a known weight (say 100lbs in water bottles or free weights from the gym etc) and hang them off the bow string with the bow supported. At least then you'll know how far the bow is moving under a force of 100lbs. Would be much more accurate than bathroom scales!
Best of luck either way - keep posting here as there are far more experienced bowyers than I could ever hope to be who can help.
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(sorry for going off topic before hand) Scott, I love your website! First off though, I should warn you, you might not want to link to it, or ask a mod if it is ok, as they are pretty strict about linking commercial sites, I don't care of course, but I was told by a certain mod if I linked to a certain site again I may be kicked off primitive archer for a bit, or maybe even permanently banned, so just wanted to give a heads up first. But anyway, I love your site! I have been messing with wordpress for a while, and I never have been happy with whatever sloppy looking site I come up with. It took me forever to just figure out how to convert my current theme from a blog into a sort of website look, and then learning about parent themes/child themes, etc. Did you use a certain theme, or tweek one of your own? I see it says your site was designed by elegant themes. Their site says that you have to pay 39 dollars, is that like a subscription costs?
(ok, back on topic)
I would recommend getting one of those mechanical hanging scales, the kind with the dial. I use a 45 dollar one I got off ebay, and it works great. I think it goes up to 220 lbs or so, maybe more. It works just fine for light bows up to warbow weight. You are obviously a very skilled craftsman, and I am sure you can make a fine bow too. Ipe can be all kinds of shades, real chocolately dark, redish, greenish even. It has a good possibility of being ipe coming from a decking project. If you get a really really good close up picture of the grain after it has been reducing to using a scrapper it might be possible to make a guess?
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@WillS... duh. Why in the hell have I not thought of that? I've got some weights for that. I was going to stop by a local fishing outfitter to see if they carried big spring scales.. but this will do just fine.
@Toomany... I will contact mods immediately. I've always put my website in forum 'signatures'.. I thought that was what it was for! I'm just a one man operation and never thought of it as 'commercial'. But I will check. Thanks for the input on my site. Elegant Themes is a one time cost and you can use any of their themes once you pay. They look good but I still had some pro help to personalize it. Wordpress is slow but perfect for somebody that adds a lot of content to their site.
It was bowmaking that got me into blade making. I used to hang out on the Stickbow and Tradgang forum a lot.. and all the knife makers got me into it. And then I went nuts.
I kinda wondered if this stuff was just a reddish variant of ipe. The grain looks exactly like my dark brown ipe bow.
Thanks again for the input fellas. I can't wait to hang a weight from that string to see where I am.
(edit: Just removed my website. Sorry to the moderators for not reading the rules first!)
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I've had reddish ipe before, to where I wash my hands after using it, and they are stained (as well as the sink) pink. Thank you for the info on the themes! I am not very tech savy. And I just thought of the rule about linking stuff from this thread Pat B recently posted:
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,44572.0.html
I honestly am not the kind of person to heckle people about rules that I have no right to say anything about, I just thought of it because the mods seem like they mean business lately, or else I wouldn't of said nothing. Your forging work is awesome. Do you make your own bodkins or anything?
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Do you make your own bodkins or anything?
+1 :) A man with your setup and talent could likely hammer out a bodkin in 20 minutes or less with a bit of practice! Man, damascus bodkins... now that would be cool!
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Man, damascus bodkins... now that would be cool!
Heck yes it would!
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Yep odds on its ipe. Especially from a decking company.
Well for upto 120 -130lbs I would have made it 1 1/8th wide at the handle maybe roughed out to 1 1/4 to give me room to work.
So first job is definately to reduce the width. Your thicknesses look ok at this point. If you leave that width bad things will happen!
What weight are you shooting for? It is essential to pull to the same weight all the time with these sort of bows (assuming the tiller is good!).
The way it's bending now looks pretty good.
Remember that although all the bow should be bending that bending should still be elliptical. Keep an eye on set and you should see what I mean.
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Get you tillering string as short as possible and winch it back to approaching FULL target draw weight, keeping an eye on it. If the tips come back 6" or a bit more you can get a short string on it.
If the tips don't come back 6" you need to take more weight off.
Don't worry that you are over straining it. 100# on a long string is much less force on the limbs than 100# pulled on a braced bow.
To explain that apparent contradiction.
My last 100# bow needed 60# on a string which would just slip onto the bow to pull the tips back to 6".
Once a short string was on it and it was braced to 6" that 60# has dissapeared and it only takes 5# to draw it the next inch!
Hope that makes sense and gives you some idea of why it's hard to brace.
So to sumarize, expect to use a good old weight to get the tips back to brace distance.
Del
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Okay great.... I've got a solid plan now! I didn't even think of the width.. thanks for pointing that out. All makes sense Del... I was hoping you would chime in. Mick Maxen has nothing but good things to say about your work.
Bodkins did you say!? :) I just heat treated this one.. forged from W1 drill rod and I literally just hammered out the socket from a piece of twist pattern weld left over from one of my last swords. I've had an idea for a while to make a stand-alone arrow piece with display based on Robert Louis Steven's 'The Black Arrow'... and then maybe a 'Black Arrow' from the Hobbit.
(http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj61/The_Roushs/_SAR0075_zpsc5910deb.jpg) (http://s269.photobucket.com/user/The_Roushs/media/_SAR0075_zpsc5910deb.jpg.html)
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Cheers :), yeah Mick is a top bloke.
Regarding the width, of course you don't want it too wide, but don't taper the tips too narrow too early, a bit of extra width allows some lateral adjustment of string line and can help avoiding twist. Same as rounding the belly, I don't do that until it's pulling back about half way. A rectangular cross section is just easier to work, judge, feel and measure. Obviously don't leave razor sharp corners.
Another thing with laminates.... please round off the back a bit near the end of the process else it looks like it's been machined >:D
Most of the Mary Rose bows are nearer round or an inflated square section (if you get what I mean) than a Victorian high arched 'D', mind the actual D in this typeface isnt too bad if you round off the corners of the straight back ;)
Del
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And even further off topic... I love your Tiodhlac sword! I know it's based on fantasy, but it actually bears a striking resemblance to the Albion Ringeck - something that would have been used in the early part of the 15thC and quite possibly seen on the battlefield of Azincourt or Poitiers. It has that beautiful diamond cross section you start to see towards the end of the 14thC as heavy plate armour was getting more common. It's the type of sword I need to add to my collection soon...
Have you ever thought about making a similar display piece to the Roy King Trophy?
(http://www.fieldandrovingarcherysociety.co.uk/uploads/textareas/t1(3).jpg)
Type 16, Tudor Bodkin/Towton Warhead and Type 7 fixed to an offcut of yew - stunning looking thing made by Simon Stanley but would probably make a really beautiful gift or display piece. If I had the means and method to learn forging it's the first thing I'd attempt!
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Will... Yeah Tiodhlac is my favorite that I've made. I like to keep my 'fantasy' as close to reality as possible. Sticking to historical proportion, geometry, etc.. but playing with textures and materials. But I've been itching to do some sort of replica soon... I think that it's good to go back to that every once in a while to stay grounded. I want to make just a nice, clean bastard sword using some of Peter Johnsson's medieval design theory.
Thanks for showing that trophy. That is just the sort of thing I've been wanting to get ideas on. I have a lot of old 18th century wrought iron cut nails.. I'd like to hammer those into a beautiful, old piece of wood and use to mount the arrow. But I like the idea of mounting one beautiful, complete arrow and then several bodkin examples mixed about like that trophy.
Well I took a shot at hanging a 100 pounds from my tiller string. A. I need a more robust string. B. I'm getting old.
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In this case, would Scott's bow require trapping on the back? From what I've read (unfortunately i don't have any hands on experience) isn't 1/4" hickory a bit thick? Would 1/8 be a bit more suitable and require no trapping? Im actually just starting the same exact type of bow in April =)