Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: simson on January 16, 2014, 04:34:58 pm
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Elder HLD 40/28
I will do some HLD (hollow limb design) bows in the upcoming time. I found high crowned staves of dogwood, sumach, elder, euonymus plum and osage in my pile. Its more or less experimenting to find outmatching species and bow length for HLD, always aiming for a28” drawlength.
Here is the first, an elder sapling bow coming from a stave 60,5” long ( now 59” ntn) and only 1,5” in diameter (at handle). It had a large pith, the hole in the handle is the origin diameter. This diameter tapers out in the fades to a very pronounced groove, which then tapers into a triangular shape at about 4” before nock.
Elder is a very flexible wood and easy to work on, IMO it is a good bowwood and can definitely be used on HLD bows. This bow is very light by mass (only 332grams incl. string + hemp) and shoots great.
I made “finger-nail shaped” tip overlays for her, as elder is soft and I'm using thin strings. The handle is simple hemp wrapping. Elder wood is a bit boring, so the back is “dyed” with rubbed in earth pigments in the wet finish.
some dimensions:
length: 59"
brace: 5"
mass: 332 grams
w/d at handle: 24/33 mm
w/d:at fade: 40/19 mm (9 mm groove)
w/d midlimb: 39/16 mm (7 mm groove)
w/d at tip: 11/13 mm
stiff parts: 8" at handle
3" levers
Enjoy
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1401%20elder%20HLD%20hemp%20handle/P1020225_zps3fcdd04d.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1401%20elder%20HLD%20hemp%20handle/P1020230_zpsa6657533.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1401%20elder%20HLD%20hemp%20handle/P1020234_zps6d5b5c2a.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1401%20elder%20HLD%20hemp%20handle/P1020241_zps73e900da.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1401%20elder%20HLD%20hemp%20handle/P1020250_zpsc73393b4.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1401%20elder%20HLD%20hemp%20handle/P1020239_zpsa1f919bb.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1401%20elder%20HLD%20hemp%20handle/P1020242_zps0e6fd8bb.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1401%20elder%20HLD%20hemp%20handle/P1020260_zps50b475ac.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1401%20elder%20HLD%20hemp%20handle/_DSC3627_zps6276cb4e.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1401%20elder%20HLD%20hemp%20handle/P1020240_zpsbe4cfb2a.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1401%20elder%20HLD%20hemp%20handle/P1020226_zpsecd0372d.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1401%20elder%20HLD%20hemp%20handle/P1020228_zps118c90a1.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1401%20elder%20HLD%20hemp%20handle/P1020229_zps86baf84b.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1401%20elder%20HLD%20hemp%20handle/P1020243_zps52ca048d.jpg)
(http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh576/orangesimson/1401%20elder%20HLD%20hemp%20handle/P1020252_zps25ae1a89.jpg)
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Another winner Simon!
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WOW!
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Now i know not to enter for selfbow bom lol its already won.
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The HLD combined with the hollow handle is mind-blowing cool! 8) 8)
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Simson, That is just awesome...Love looking through the handle...Profiles are sweet
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You can't tell me that ain't cool! Your patience paid off; outstanding work!
John D
Boise
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Thanks guys!
I'm always searching what to do with the hollow handle. The hole is that great that it fits an 11/32 arrow. I thought on a thing like sticking in a hardwood arrow and increasing drawweight .....
.......what do you think?????
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Fantastic, im 64 years old been fooling with wood bows since I was 30 but when I grow up I want to be just like you.
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I am glad you decided to rub some earth pigment into the finish; otherwise this would have been a boring bow as you said. ;) Seriously amazing bow Simson.
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Boring Schmoring! That wood is GORGEOUS! Way to go! How wide did you have to make the limbs to get that draw weight of a bow? I think the last Elder bow I saw on these pages was an extra wide paddle bow design. (...with a sinew backing down the center if I recall correctly.)
OneBow
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Another example of a master craftsman. Thanks for posting your work Simon.
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Very cool bow Simon. Very cool.
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That bow is friggin' amazing! I never would have imagined something of that nature would be possible!
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:o WOW :o All I can say is WOW beautiful. that's 8)
You are very talented
DBar
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Man am I glad your back posting bows again Simon, otherwise we wouldn't see some of the most innovative and finely crafted bows of our time. This one is exceptional, a real beauty to look at and tillered to perfection. That hollow limb reminds me of a highly polished dugout canoe. 8)
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very very cool
chuck
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Looking at your bows is a whole separate addiction >:D. I just keep wanting more.. This one is no exception. I love it. Great job.
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Wow :o
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Wow!!! Truly an amazing piece of work. I bet it is even nicer looking in person.
Russ
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Your work is inspirational! You make it look so easy 8) I'm really loving the hollow limb bows you've been turning out, gonna have to try that eventually :) thank you for sharing!
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AMAZING!!!
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Incredible, Simon. Very cool bow. 8)
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Hi Simson, what specific species is the elder you use?
I 've made a couple of elder bows nows and really rate it as a bow wood. Low density, very elastic and able to take lots of compression with no chrysals around pin knots.
Nice bow you have made there!
So is your thinking behind hollowing the limbs out anything to do with the poisson effect, mass reduction without affecting stiffness and/or just the thin edges you end up with on these short of sapling bows? My mind keeps on thinking about the 'snap' effect that happens when you keep extending a metal tape measure......let off at the end of draw maybe???
We need some tests doing with this design to see how it compares to a standard limb cross section.
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Such a beauty!!! soo elegant!
what kind of tool did you used for tillering?
cant wait for my elderberry to dry
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Another very cool bow,nice job. :)
Pappy
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Yep, got some elder myself!!!! Have just made a molly kind of bow out of half of it. Not decided if I am going to leave it as is or do some experimenting - thought of het treating a lot, scraping and reducing draw weight so that I can put some recurve into it, sinewing the back and even putting some horn on the belly a first for me. Any thoughts on the ideas, ever done them with elder?
Not trying to get in the way (again) your bows are just something to aspire to. Elder is great bow wood, I think it is sambucus nigra around here for those of you wondering Thanks once again Yoda simon for your thoughts
Peter
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Elder is too light to work as a horn bow core IMO. It works really well with a little heat treating. Elder strikes me as a great wood to be sinew backed but i've never tried it yet.
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every time i see one of your HLD bows i drool man! such a kool idea, how did you think of trying that? or did you learn from some one. gorgeous bow right there
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That is outstanding, Simon. I bet that screams an arrow. Very impressive. Jawge
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That is an amazing bow. Nice job!
Mark
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Yes Sir Simon!
That's a Beauty!
I Love your HLD Bows...
Will definitely be looking for a Stave or Two to try this design on
once I complete my current Track... Wide/Flat Belly/Molly.... Sort of. :)
Keep up the Great Work!
I am watching and Learning.
-gus
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Really cool, something I have always wanted to try. Be interesting to put that bow through its paces and see how it performs as opposed to another similar bow. I imagine it would fare well.
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I will call you Sir Simson from now on ;)
That is amazing. How does the HLD affect the performance? Are they more or less prone to splitting...?
Thank you and keep em comin.
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many thanks for your nice compliments guys!!!
I'm surprised of that many replies, will answer the questions.
first: I'will do the requested measurements tomorrow and post it then
Your work is inspirational! You make it look so easy 8) I'm really loving the hollow limb bows you've been turning out, gonna have to try that eventually :) thank you for sharing!
Yes Will, go for that. I'm convinced that HLD has really great potential and it would be great to share the results hereHi Simson, what specific species is the elder you use?
I 've made a couple of elder bows nows and really rate it as a bow wood. Low density, very elastic and able to take lots of compression with no chrysals around pin knots.
Nice bow you have made there!
So is your thinking behind hollowing the limbs out anything to do with the poisson effect, mass reduction without affecting stiffness and/or just the thin edges you end up with on these short of sapling bows? My mind keeps on thinking about the 'snap' effect that happens when you keep extending a metal tape measure......let off at the end of draw maybe???
We need some tests doing with this design to see how it compares to a standard limb cross section.
Mike, that is sambucus niger.
I did a copy from an answer given to Gun Doc in this thread:
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,41863.0.html
1. Employ, results, longevity
I have made about 20 HLD bows so far, it should be more to get funded results. I began the HLD when I remember right 2010. Some bows were gifted away, some sold and some still in my possession. I never heard of a failure, my bows are still in use. I didn’t notice any chrysal or fret, esp. in the ‘belly walls’. Never had a vertically splitting, even in this one where the hollowed out is extreme. A word to the flatting out, this does not mean that the curved limb becomes a flat limb. You can feel the effect when you hold your hands on the belly of the limb while the bow is drawn (of course by another or on the tree).
I came to this design more or less by accident. A stave had very changing crown (depth), so to get it matched I could have narrowed it on the sides. But then the front profile would have a changing width. I decided to give a hollowed out limb (in that section) a try and that was it. It did work!
2. Advantages
The HLD allows a limb with lower mass compared to flat or lenticular cross section by a given draw weight. The lower mass causes a faster return of the drawn limb, more energy on the arrow – a better cast. HLD bows have a different f/d curve compared to flat bows. There is a steeper curve in the beginning of draw and a milder increase at the last inches, because of the flattening out. I will not say there is something like a let off (like in wheelie bows), but the limbs thickness differs while drawing the bow. You know the limb’s depth is much more critical than the width. Double the width and you get a bow with 2x draw weight. But double the depth you will get a bow with 8x the draw weight. I will say, just a little difference in the limb’s depth (flattening) causes a great effect.
Drawing a HLD bow always reminds me on spring steel, the draw is very smooth and comfortable.
In my opinion the limb’s belly has lower stress compared to the flat profile (see my sketch I the buildalong). The flattening out causes a tension horizontally, perhaps this allows more room for the cells to compress vertically.
3. Bow wood
I have done HLD on osage, elm, yew, hazel, golden chain tree, euonymus europaeus (don’t know the English word), maybe some others I don’t remember now …
At least hazel is marginal bow wood, but I had a surprisingly good result with that specific bow (is posted a few weeks ago), so I cannot say HLD needs a highly interlocked grain like elm. But wouldn’t use a wood gnarly like this with dogleg different reflex and so on anymore, this was a challenge.
4. Design
A stave with a high crown is needed. The depth of the limb (measured over the hollow) compared to the width should be in the ratio of 1:3, otherwise it doesn’t flatten out and you lose a great advantage. The curved wall of the limb must be thin enough to work. The two ends of the wall should have no edges and must be sanded round to prevent excessive stress. These are just my thoughts and experience.
Such a beauty!!! soo elegant!
what kind of tool did you used for tillering?
cant wait for my elderberry to dry
Please go to: http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,41217.0.html
here you can see how it is done
Yep, got some elder myself!!!! Have just made a molly kind of bow out of half of it. Not decided if I am going to leave it as is or do some experimenting - thought of het treating a lot, scraping and reducing draw weight so that I can put some recurve into it, sinewing the back and even putting some horn on the belly a first for me. Any thoughts on the ideas, ever done them with elder?
Not trying to get in the way (again) your bows are just something to aspire to. Elder is great bow wood, I think it is sambucus nigra around here for those of you wondering Thanks once again Yoda simon for your thoughts
Peter
If I were you: no horn on the belly, sinewing works for sure, heat treating also - but hard to say without seeing the stave ...
every time i see one of your HLD bows i drool man! such a kool idea, how did you think of trying that? or did you learn from some one. gorgeous bow right there
more or less by accident, I had a stave with very high crown and had the only opportunity to decrown (what I did not want), so I searched for other possibilties ... and voila - the HLD was born
Yes Sir Simon!
That's a Beauty!
I Love your HLD Bows...
Will definitely be looking for a Stave or Two to try this design on
once I complete my current Track... Wide/Flat Belly/Molly.... Sort of. :)
Keep up the Great Work!
I am watching and Learning.
-gus
Yes Gus come on. I'm hungry for what others make out of HLD
Really cool, something I have always wanted to try. Be interesting to put that bow through its paces and see how it performs as opposed to another similar bow. I imagine it would fare well.
Steve, being German I don't understand what you mean with 'put through its paces' ? Do you have a testing idea? What can I do? And yes I'm waiting for a stave which could be split in a half. one for HLD the other conventiaonal design to compare.
All my experience, my feel as a bowmaker, convinces me the HLD is much more efficiant. I hope I can rent a chrono in summer then I willl do fps measurements on all HLD bows I have.
I will call you Sir Simson from now on ;)
That is amazing. How does the HLD affect the performance? Are they more or less prone to splitting...?
Thank you and keep em comin.
DuBois, please see answer above. and no, till now no splitting and no chrysals
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Simon,
Very unique bows (HLD) and expertly done. Since you came up with this on your own I thought you might enjoy this Native American bow from the National Museum. It is not like your design but might give you something to think about.
Absolutely outstanding bows you are making recently. I hope you may find this of some use in your future development.
rich
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sorry, it is the #1 bow in the line up and also the only one that is a "self" bow, meaning it is NOT sinew backed.
rich
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Simpson - euonymus europaeus is called spindle here in the UK. I've made a couple of bows from it and it's quite a wood! I just wish I could find more of it.
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Simon,
Very unique bows (HLD) and expertly done. Since you came up with this on your own I thought you might enjoy this Native American bow from the National Museum. It is not like your design but might give you something to think about.
Absolutely outstanding bows you are making recently. I hope you may find this of some use in your future development.
rich
Thanks Rich!
I know this bow and the book too. I had another pic of that type of bows but cannot find it. Thanks for the link to that bow - we should replicate it. It looks very nice and interesting, no really groove but concave on the belly.
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Simpson - euonymus europaeus is called spindle here in the UK. I've made a couple of bows from it and it's quite a wood! I just wish I could find more of it.
Yes Mike, spindle is very good bowwood, but most is very bad twisted
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Another awesome bow !
love what you are doing.
Thanks for sharing it.
Guy
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A piece of art:-).
I cant help but think that the flattening out, means that the energy that would otherwise be stored almost exclusivly in compression, is partly stored as transverse tension energy in the belly. That could (to my mind) partly explain why you dont get frets on the ridges. If that is the case then, ill accept that its a more effecient design.
Just thoughts.
Cheers
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I was thinking along the same lines, I just couldn't put my thoughts into words. Thank you.
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Simon,
Very unique bows (HLD) and expertly done. Since you came up with this on your own I thought you might enjoy this Native American bow from the National Museum. It is not like your design but might give you something to think about.
Absolutely outstanding bows you are making recently. I hope you may find this of some use in your future development.
rich
Thanks Rich!
I know this bow and the book too. I had another pic of that type of bows but cannot find it. Thanks for the link to that bow - we should replicate it. It looks very nice and interesting, no really groove but concave on the belly.
I found it!
Rich, the picture you posted is out of the book from Mason, right?
I found the pic I looked for, it's in the book from John Baldwin. But it's just the same :(
Thank you, Rich!
A piece of art:-).
I cant help but think that the flattening out, means that the energy that would otherwise be stored almost exclusivly in compression, is partly stored as transverse tension energy in the belly. That could (to my mind) partly explain why you dont get frets on the ridges. If that is the case then, ill accept that its a more effecient design.
Just thoughts.
Cheers
Yes You right, Holten. I see it the same way, but loading more compression in a short high crowned stave means your limited in drawlength. Otherwise you risk compression frets. This bow is 59" ntn, 8" stiff handle and 3" levers. The bending part is only 45", but you could draw it to 28", and that very comfortable. I think this is a huge advantage.
Thank you all for your comments and thoughts!
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your work as a bowyer blows me away!you are a master in my books!wunderbar,ausgeseitnicht!
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Impressive as always Sir! And thank you again for the detailed explanations on this design. It is something that I have thought about a lot and continue to do so. Josh
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Wow
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gorgeous, that is a beauty
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I had to come back and have another look, I mean WOW!
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Outstanding work. I can only aspire to such quality.
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This is just insane! I'm looking forward to your chapter in the Bowyer Bible #5! ;)
If you ever had the time, I would love to see some kind of
tutorial on how you do this, or even what tools you used on the belly
and handle?
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Wow! That is amazing. I had never considered that such a thing was possible... Well done!
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I have always wanted to make one like that
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One of the neatest I have seen
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Omg, thats amazing!
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Very classy.
Del
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Wow! That is amazing. I had never considered that such a thing was possible... Well done!
+1!
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Thanks again for your comments guys, nice to see an old thread coming back ...
This is just insane! I'm looking forward to your chapter in the Bowyer Bible #5! ;)
If you ever had the time, I would love to see some kind of
tutorial on how you do this, or even what tools you used on the belly
and handle?
The 'how to' is here: http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,41217.75.html
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Super nice elder bow, Simon! Made with love for sure.