Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: WillS on February 25, 2014, 12:10:21 pm
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Jaro's just submitted a superb article on making his 160# ash warbow. Well worth a read. One of the few guys who can make them this heavy, and he does all his tillering in under an hour! Jealous! Takes me that long to get the thing to brace height...
http://74.209.214.7/~englishw/Making_a_whitewood_longbow.html
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Good read, not often do you find ash with an .85 sg. Finished product was nice.
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I liked "any archer will do..."
Yeah. Mark Stretton will do!
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Lovely tiller.
Del
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Brilliant build along! He makes it look easy.
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Cool little article. Jaro has been one of my favorite war-bowyers since he used to post on paleoplanet. He does make a good point about gluing on pieces on horn verses already made nocks on a big heavy warbow. I shape my nocks on my belt sander, and it is a pain when doing that with a big heavy 84" long bow. I like the grinding jig too. May be a simple method for reducing the belly. I use my rasp at the moment to reduce the belly, I take off a bit flat at first on each side of the belly, (to where it looks like half of a stop sign), and then I will round the corners. One thing that works with premade nocks (as was suggested to me on here and paleoplanet when I asked about it) is hot melt glue, just the cheap stuff from craft stores. It holds the horn on the stick nicely, and when you need to pop the nock off you can wrap it in leather and pop it off with some pliers.
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He was telling me the other day just how vitally important it is to keep ash dry while working it, to the point where he washes his hands constantly to remove sweat as even that can upset the wood. He also chews on small pieces to taste how bitter they are, as the more bitter the more sap, and he knows how the raw stave should sound when you slap it with your palm to ensure it's seasoned enough to work. It's like "Bowmaking Plus"! He's one of those guys I just want to watch working 'cos you know it's just scratching the surface of his knowledge, that article.
I have to agree Daniel, since my miserable encounters with the nocks for my recent attempt I'm always gonna make them off the bow from now on and only glue them in place when I'm 100% satisfied with them. The holt-melt tip is cool, I've got some of that somewhere.
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Is there an advantage to having the bow as he has it on the tillering tree? Most of the time I see the handle on the top and the rope pulling on the bow string. After initial tillering, Jaro flips it so the rope pulls on the handle of the bow. Thoughts?
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Is there an advantage to having the bow as he has it on the tillering tree? Most of the time I see the handle on the top and the rope pulling on the bow string. After initial tillering, Jaro flips it so the rope pulls on the handle of the bow. Thoughts?
Maybe it's upside-down so that if they blow up, the pieces hit the ground and not all over the place?
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I asked Pip Bickerstaffe and Steve Stretton the same thing, and their response was the same... 'cuz that's how they started.' Simple as that.
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I asked Pip Bickerstaffe and Steve Stratton the same thing, and their response was the same... 'cuz that's how they started.' Simple as that.
And they know because....?
Del
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Hi
Does anyone know where to contact Jaro best?
If anyone has his email or something else please send me a pm.
THX!
Kind regards
Andi
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Nice article, well written and with good pictures.
In the beginnig there is the statement that such a whitewoodbow will be tested against a fine yew bow, but I did not see any testing described.
What do you think, is the yew bow better perfomance wise?
ciao,
gian-luca
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At the moment there's a real increase of interest in white wood bows. Guys like Jaro believe strongly that a well made ash bow will outperform almost any yew bow of the same weight apart perhaps from the absolute best Italian yew. I don't think it will be long before there is some serious testing, it just needs all the guys making the white wood bows to get together with people like Joe and Mark who can actually shoot them to find out.
I have to admit, before I started talking to Jaro I wasn't so interested in ash bows, but his theories on how common they would have been during the medieval period and the serious talent it requires to make them at these weights is a lot more exciting than yew bows. I know that Joe has had some good success with holly and hazel at weights around 160# and possibly plum as well. I'll do some digging and see if I can find some performance results.
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Here are some flight results set by the EWBS last year - no ash, but hazel at 140# clearly just as good as the yew bows.
http://74.209.214.7/~englishw/TMAF%202013%20Flight%20Shoot%20Results.html
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The main advantage of the white woods is they are easy to find, straight and knot free.
Del
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I don't think it's just that. It's about as easy to find .85sg ash as it is to find straight, dense yew! None of the English ash I've come across has anything like that density. Try and make a 160# bow from English ash with a lower sg and you'll end up with a soggy banana.
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I asked Pip Bickerstaffe and Steve Stratton the same thing, and their response was the same... 'cuz that's how they started.' Simple as that.
And they know because....?
Del
And they know what?
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I think this part of the discussion is about why Jaro turns his bow up the other way on the tiller. E.G Bow down string up, and pulls down on the bow.
WillS suggests that Pip and Steve say, it is because that was how it was done in the past (Or that's how I'm interpeting the "That's how they started").
I am querying how the heck they know... I don't know of anything in the medieval records, never mind the practice of bow making in Neolithic times.
Mind it's just getting silly as we are discussing heresay about guesswork on a post which is about a third parties work.
Del
PS.
I once heard a drunk man say I was his bestest friend, or my at least Brother said he did... well he said he was my brother, I was also drunk at the time >:D
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WillS suggests that Pip and Steve say, it is because that was how it was done in the past (Or that's how I'm interpeting the "That's how they started").
Nope. Wasn't me. It was Adam. I also think Adam meant that it was how Pip and Steve started. It's also how I got started because it makes far more sense to me to have the bow facing downward, I find it really hard to see a good tiller when the bow is the other way round.
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Yes, when asked, they both said there was no historical significance to tillering 'upside down.' It was just the way they learned and started, and they carried on with their program.
I learned 'right side up' but I really don't think there's any real difference. Whatever you get used to and as long as your tiller outcome is desirable, who cares. I tried tillering a bow upside down once, but it messed with my head.
I remember asking Steve about the big green background he uses to tiller his bows, and if there was a reason he used it. He chuckled and said it was formerly a ping pong table that belonged to his son. It was big enough and the right price. Go figure.
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If there's a hard way to do something, the Brits will find it. OOOooo... did I say that? OMG... you can't say that. ;D ;D ;D
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WillS suggests that Pip and Steve say, it is because that was how it was done in the past (Or that's how I'm interpeting the "That's how they started").
Nope. Wasn't me. It was Adam. I also think Adam meant that it was how Pip and Steve started. It's also how I got started because it makes far more sense to me to have the bow facing downward, I find it really hard to see a good tiller when the bow is the other way round.
Sorry my bad...
Also my missinterpretation of "That's how they started".. I took "they" to mean bowyers in medieval times.
:-[
Baaaad kitty
I shall go sit on the naughty step.
Del
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If there's a hard way to do something, the Brits will find it. OOOooo... did I say that? OMG... you can't say that. ;D ;D ;D
Ha, you're probably right though...
I think I read somewhere (no idea where) that Pip believes it's important to "feel" the bow moving on the tiller, as compared to the string. I have to admit, when I put a bow on the tiller, I do it string up and bow down, and before stepping back to winch/pull the rope I exercise the bow by tugging to a given weight or length a few times and you can really feel what the limbs are doing - whether one is stiff or twisting etc. I guess it's the same as checking it by pretend-shooting, but with a warbow that gets tricky early on, so having the mechanical advantage helps.
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When the scale is hanging it is easier to attach the string to the scale than the bow to the scale. I use my digital scale as a hanging scale and my spring scale I pull down with the string.
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The useful thing about doing it upside down is that the bow is freer to move/tip showing imbalances in the tiller compared to it sitting on a shelf where it can only rock and needs a lot of imbalance to do this.
You don't have to have ash of 0.85 sg. If the wood is lower density then make it a little wider. The limiting factor in my eyes is the size of your hands....lower density woods will work but once you start going over 1 1/2 wide at the handle they just aren't nice to shoot.
I bet you that the hazel was nowhere near 0.85sg >:D
I understand why people think dense wood is the be all and end all but it really isn't. Design, design, design.
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I understand why people think dense wood is the be all and end all but it really isn't. Design, design, design.
Good point! But as you said, it gets to a point where the bow gets super wide. Remember that Jaro was trying to replicate a Mary Rose bow - same cross section, same dimensions. That wouldn't have worked with lower density wood. You can make a heavy bow in almost any design if you're careful - there's a vid on Facebook just recently of Joe shooting a 177# flat bow and a 170# Turkish style bow that he made - but it's keeping the faithful design of the MR bows that is so impressive here, and is what takes so much skill I think.
Dense wood certainly isn't the only factor, but it's required if your dimensions are set, for example when building a replica. As far as I'm aware the hazel, holly and plum bows these guys are making are all fairly close to the MR bow dimensions. Otherwise they wouldn't be allowed in the shoots.
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When it comes to making warbows, I'd rather have a more elastic wood, like yew, than a wood with a high specific gravity.
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Oh for sure, but what if you can't get yew? We know via documentation that bowyers were required to make a certain number of warbows from meane woods for every yew bow, as yew was scarce and expensive, despite being outsourced. If you can't get yew but you need to make bows of the same draw weight using the same techniques and dimensions (more or less) you need to use the next best bow wood, and the best quality of that wood.
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WillS suggests that Pip and Steve say, it is because that was how it was done in the past (Or that's how I'm interpeting the "That's how they started").
Nope. Wasn't me. It was Adam. I also think Adam meant that it was how Pip and Steve started. It's also how I got started because it makes far more sense to me to have the bow facing downward, I find it really hard to see a good tiller when the bow is the other way round.
Sorry my bad...
Also my missinterpretation of "That's how they started".. I took "they" to mean bowyers in medieval times.
:-[
Baaaad kitty
I shall go sit on the naughty step.
Del
BAD KITTY! No cat nip for you.
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Oh for sure, but what if you can't get yew? We know via documentation that bowyers were required to make a certain number of warbows from meane woods for every yew bow, as yew was scarce and expensive, despite being outsourced. If you can't get yew but you need to make bows of the same draw weight using the same techniques and dimensions (more or less) you need to use the next best bow wood, and the best quality of that wood.
Totally agree. But, once you've shot warbows from yew and warbows from other woods, it's obvious why yew was so highly prized.
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Yup, I guess so. I've got so little experience in both shooting and making them that it's all just one big adventure at the moment! I'm really looking forward to properly starting on my ash warbow that I've got in the pipeline - really good quality ash, and with Jaro's help (and Cam's recent thread!) I should be able to hit my target of 110# hopefully. It'll be interesting to see how it compares to yew both on the tiller and when shooting.
I really want to have a go with plum - apparently it makes stunning warbows, as Joe made one from yellow plum of 92# and it beat a 110# yew bow made by Steve of Alpine yew by around 20 yards using a Standard! My dad has a lot of plum trees so I might see if I can find some decent staves.
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I think it depends so much on the individual stave, even with yew.
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Plum is extremely well suited for war bow designs. I would say better than even yew.
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It must be good wood if it's better than yew.
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It must be good wood if it's better than yew.
Another member of the plum family worthy of note is Sloe (prunus spinosa) I have found it has a higher sg than plum and makes a great bow.
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I have proably only worked about a dozen plum staves, none big enough for war bows but it never fails to impress me., Of course yew also impresses me.
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I made two light ash warbows about two years ago. Some guys from a reenactment company didn't have the cash to pay for yew bows so I proposed them to make ash bows. Ash is much less expensive here in Switzerland and i have a lot of clean straight staves. It's also faster to process, hence the lower price.
The funny thing is, I worked more or less exactly like Jaro described, making the bows a tiny bit wider and with a less pronounced rounding on the belly. The light toasting of the belly was also the same :)
Both were about 36mm wide at the handle, about 190cm ntn or a bit longer and had around 80 to 90 pound at 32 inches of draw.
Doing a few shots, i could not notice any big difference in performance compared to yew bows, but the testing series was small and I'm no expert warbow archer, I can't draw more than 85 pounds (what a wimp ;D).
With my 'normal' whitewood bows, they are mostly around 55-60 pounds, I prefer it the other way round: a perfect flat belly and a more rounded (or trapped) back. And as narrow as possible. I feel that this gives the best performance with the white woods. I always wonder if the medieval boywer would also have chosen to go that way, to avoid all the problems with chrisaling and string follow...?
ciao,
gian-luca
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The article has inspired me to do an Ash bow for a guy at the club 85# @ 32"
The Ash is well seasoned (2 years) but is still about 15% moisture content, so I've stuck it on a long radiator ;D.
I stuck a new blade on the bandsaw and adjusted it up to get a clean cut. I've even used my plane on the stave, a tool I only very rarely use.
Maybe I'll find I like Ash more than I thought...
Del
(PS. I looked at the other articles on the EWBS wesite. They really should remove that bit about Warbows not being of English Yew" because it is too full of moisture" it just makes them look stupid. It certainly puts me off every joining 'em.
Someone should have a quiet word).
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Steady on Del, Saying that the EWBS are being stupid about English Yew, is asking for them to put a curse on all the English Yew bows ,you make to fail at the tillering stage ;)
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The man does make a beautiful bow, indeed. He's a talented boy.
I agree with Del and Brian about English yew, well Welsh at least ;) The right stuff is the equal of anything in my experience. I believe a Welsh self yew longbow has the honour of shooting a wood/feather arrow the furthest official distance ever O:). The average British yew is certainly not the equal of Spanish or Italian, though , but will still make a serviceable bow. It should be noted that Ireland was a significant source of yew stave importation in the middle ages (see Wadge's informative Arrowstorm).
Here is a link to a similar Jaro ash bow's performance. Indubitably well shot but still not the equal of hazel in performance but I'm sure much better in longevity due to hazel's propensity to crysal.
http://74.209.214.7/~englishw/DonningtonFlightResults2012_EN.html