Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: SLIMBOB on April 17, 2014, 07:24:55 pm
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This bow is made for Jordan. I hope she likes it as much as I do. This is the second Sugar Maple bow I've made and I really like this wood a bunch. It's light as a feather and deceptively strong and elastic. It takes very little heat to bend it and it retains it's shape well. I tempered the belly after bending the reflex in at 3 inches. It retains 2 inches of reflex after lots of arrows shooting it in so I am well pleased with it. Bit of an "S" shape to the stave but the string tracks nicely on it. It sits at 35lbs at 23 inches which is heavy for her, but she wont draw it nearly that far yet. Red wool trade cloth with brain tan binding on the handle wrap, red sinew wraps on the limbs dyed in Rit dye. The horse hair is from two of the horses she and her family own. Left a little of the cambium on for natural camo because it looked so cool on the last one. Hope you like it and thanks for lookin'.
Sugar (Hard) Maple
35lbs at 23 inches
49" knock to knock
1 1/2 inches thru the middle third tapering to 3/4 inch at the knock. Slightly narrowed handle.
High gloss spray poly finish
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Very nice slimbob, simple but beautiful! I really like the pimple things that you did that have it it's character, especially the red sinew wraping! Didn't ever think about dying the sinew but that gives me an idea! ;) nicely done, Patrick.
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Really nice Bow! I love the decorating you have done with it.
OneBow
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She got a fine bow there, I like everything about that one Slim. Cool s-shape, nice profiles, good looking wood and the handle wrap and horse hair have a authentic style thats hard to beat. Your kicking out some great bows here Tex, keeping em' coming, real nice work. :)
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Very pretty! bows nice too! :laugh:
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Now that was funny!
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Seriously though slimebob, very pretty wife, who seems very happy with her sweet little bow. lucky guy!
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Thanks man. I'll pass it along and she'll appreciate that. I should clarify that it's not hers (my wife Deb). Jordan is the daughter of a friend of ours and this bow goes to her. Deb is just my model today. A good one.
Thanks Patrick, Onebowonder and Greg.
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"style"..you forgot to put that word in your title..unless you are a indian..?? >:D
Political correctness is important ya know!
Tiller looks spot on.
E
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I will take that under advisement IndianGuy. Not enough Indian in my blood to claim it, but enough of an interest in the culture that I have studied it a bit, and then applied the knowledge gained into actually crafting, building and using items from that era. I have a real appreciation for it, but very little for political correctness. Thanks for the compliment!
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Awesome bow Slimbob. Nice attention to detail. Maple has to be a very versatile bow wood. You sure have got that little bow bending good. I just came into some fine maple boards and I will be trying it for the first time soon. We don't get a lot of good maple in Alabama, but I have a good trading partner lost in the snow up there somewhere. :D You are putting out some fine bows these days.
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Very nice Slim. I sure am fond of those little plains bows. CC
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Well actually....according to the Federal Native American arts and crafts act it is illegal for someone to advertise/sell something as Native American, Indian or tribal affiliated made unless the maker is a card carrying member of a federally recognized tribe. My verbiage may be a little off but that's the gist of it.
I realize this bow is a Gift for someone and not for sale but it is not fair for tribal people's who's cultural works ( beadwork,baskets,painting,bows..etc ) make up some or all of their income to have to compete with non Natives selling things as "Indian" or "Native American" when they are not. So in this case political correctness is actually important.
I support that cause and always will because it effects people like me who have made a living selling such things. People that know and respect that always include words such as "replica " or "style" when showing their works. :)
Not an argument or debate just mho.
E
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Very nice bow Slimbob. I bet she will love it.
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Well, I'm not selling the bow as you stated, so there's that we can dispense with. But more importantly, I find the whole idea pretty silly. Are you prohibited from making and or selling an English Longbow without first classifying it as an English "style" longbow? Not because it was not built correctly, but only because someone with European ancestry took offense? My interest in Plains Indian material culture though admittedly limited, is broader than that of some Native Americans, not because of my ancestry or lack there-of, but because I've taken an interest in it. As have many other Americans, Europeans and Eastern Europeans specifically. I don't claim to be Indian, nor do I have the name "Indian" in my PA handle which might indicate something different. I don't wish to quarrel with you IndianGuy, but if someone wants to have an advantage over someone else in selling their "Indian Bows", just build a better bow. Problem solved.
Thanks Howard, I appreciate that a bunch!
Thanks Curt
Thanks Clint.
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Well done!
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Looks like a happy Lady there. You have made a fine little bow!
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Now that is cool,very nice job. Love it. :)
Pappy
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Very cool bow Bob. Love the decorating and finishing.
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Slim,
Nice work as usual coming from you...Like what you did with the handle to 8)
Don
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Very cool bow man. I am putting the finish on something very similar but in ash. I really like it.
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Excellent work Slim! That'll make the lady a fine shooter. I'm kinda partial to hard maple myself. Unfortunately, the vast majority of maple in my area is silver maple. So I have to harvest what little I get out east. But it is worth it! Josh
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Good looking bow, and nice to see another maple. I just cut and split one myself, but the only maple I made so far crysalled on me.
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Good looking bow and I appreciate your stance on political correctness, it is what it is regardless of who made it.
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Slim, it's not about building a better bow it's about calling it something it's not and it's not a plains Indian bow Because it was not made by a Native American. Its a replica of a plains Indian bow. But to each is their own your argument is an old one. I'm done on this thread, ignorance is abound when it comes to this subject with non Native people... :embarassed:
E
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Dang......
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Dang......
+1
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So only Native Peoples have the intellect to fully appreciate your line of thought? Non Natives like myself with all my Non Native ignorance could not possibly comprehend this type of nativist logic. I myself, in all my Non Native ignorance, believe that you can do anything and be anything if you work hard at it, and who your great grandfather was is irrelevant. This not unlike how many of the Native American societies functioned. Your welcome to visit this post or any of my future posts Sir anytime you wish as I harbor no ill will toward you. Should you decide not to, you won't be missed. 😄
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Dang......
+1
+1
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Now that we seem to have moved beyond all that mess.
Thanks Arrowind
Thanks simson, that working recurve you have posted next door is a work of art!
Thanks Pappy
Thanks PEARL
Thanks Don
Thanks Matt
Thanks Josh, got 2 staves left of it! Really like the wood.
Thanks rps3
Thanks Badger for the kind words on the bow and yes, it is what it is. I know a Belgian guy that does great quill work and a Native American who admires it.
Thanks Greg for checking in. and anybody I might have inadvertently missed.
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Wait, so is sugar maple and rock maple the same thing?
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That looks great. Nice work!
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Sugar Maple, Hard Maple and Rock Maple are all the same so far as I understand it. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Thanks Jesse. That last bow you posted was just a knock-down gorgeous piece of work.
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Was gonna post yesterday, but that whole life getting in the way thing happened. I’m Wildkatts wife. I usually just read P.A. stuff over his shoulder instead of logging in. He called me over because he knew I would love the bow. Nice job dude !!! She’ll love it!!
When my mother married my biological father, *her* mother worried that she would have to live in a tepee and work on buffalo skins all day. Mom explained to her that my father was a modern “city Indian” and he lived in an apartment and even had running water. Nope, no living like the ancestors. When she remarried when I was 10, her new husband adopted me in a closed adoption in Florida. Found out later on that it meant no access to old birth records and he is on birth certificate. Pissed off his daughters and family big time. They didn’t want a “mixed blood” in the family. Was originally going to do the very major hurdles to get records fixed, but since I didn’t have any kids to pass bloodline down to, it wasn’t important enough to get a card. My wonderful Granddaughters are through Mike.
As an example, did y’all know that any body born before 1963 whos great great grandparent was Cherokee making them 1/32 could get a card? Now you have to be 1/16 (Great grandparent). As recently as last year I have had pasty white people flaunt their card status at me. Really… I am soooo impressed. Yep, your card beats my bloodline. And there are “full bloods” and “mixed bloods” that have a problem with records because their ancestors didn’t sign the “Dawes rolls” and for those who did, a bunch of the rolls were lost in a fire way back when. Guess they’re not legit.
Every Indian/ Native American/ First Nation bow made now is a replica of that time. There is nobody as far as I know living the old life and making bows. A Chickasaw living on a suburban block even if it is a Reservation is not an Old Time Plains Indian living the life. It is all a “style” now. Mike and I are “mixed blood” Apaches. Even his bows are a “style” from the old days. Yeah Wildkatt hunts with a bow off a horse and we live on game meat, yadda, yadda, yadda. I am NOT living in a wickiup, drying meat on sticks, sleeping wrapped in furs. I *like* showers. If you ain’t living the life, it is only a style. And if you are using power tools, it is only a style. Even Billy Berger was living “caveman style” in that really cool show. That said, my beautiful “Apache style” bow made for me by Half Eye would have made any old warrior proud. No way I’m I going to look down on that bow because hes not Apache. Go ahead.. call me ignorant…
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Wasn't gonna comment but then read the entire post, wow... Slim that bow is magnificent and is an excellent representation by any sane persons reasoning. You call it what you want to man, I like your "style" sir and your bow too!!!!! 8)
Thank you for the nice comment Ms. Kitty
hell of a bow right there.
rich
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Miss Kitty, you have expressed my thoughts on this matter much more eloquently than I ever could have and I can add nothing to that. I am honored greatly by your contribution to the conversation. Thank you!
half eye, I have said it before and I will say it again, I consider you the Master of these little short bows and your praise is to me the highest compliment. Thank you.
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Slim, aint a master of anything, but I do know a fine bow when I see it. No thanks necessary, I'm just stating the obvious,eh?
rich
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Well I'm happy to admit I'm 1/16 Rottweiler and 1/4 boston terrier. I even have a stupid card to show my pedigree; just like horses and dogs >:(
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Its not a matter of political correctness,or whether your great grandmother was a Cherokee princess or not.Its about it being a federal law that protects Native people from fraud and abuse,plain and simple,regardless if you agree with it or not.If their was a thread concerning breaking any other federal or state laws,im sure the thread would be debated just the same and most likely removed.
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Somehow I fail to see any deliberate attempt at fraud or deceit. I've got a feeling this one wouldn't get very far in court. My circle of associates includes replicators, scholars, writers, artists, and historians. It is also, as on this board, made up of people of various cultures from around the globe. This group includes Europeans, Asians, Australians, New Zealanders and North Americans. I see misrepresentation of artifacts that go on the auction block all the time. Put a little patina on it, and it's ready to be sold as an original. Most of the time, it is not the maker that is misrepresenting the item. It is usually someone that purchased it as a replica, then sold it, and then it appears as an original. I completely agree that this is an unscrupulous way to transact business, and it is a deliberate attempt to deceive someone. This should be prosecuted fully. I also know a number of Indian, or if you prefer Native, craftsmen and women that depend on their craft for a living. There are several of you on this site who know me, and you also know some of the people in the Indian community that I am referring to. This then leads to the argument over blood quantum, adoption, and marriage into an Indian family. I know people that fall into every conceivable category of this discussion, and this could be argued for years (actually it has been and still is). What it all boils down to is intentional deceit. That was not done in this case.
Curtis
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That's a very nice bow Slimbob. Where are you getting your sugar maple?. Is it from Texas trees? God Bless
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Very nice bow
I know you guys down there have strict laws about calling anything "native", as I was told by Rand Rowe. Rand made me a native "style" flute years ago as a trade and as he said, he couldn't call it a native flute because he wasn't native and could be prosecuted by law if he did. It is something to consider. Up here we have no such laws and I could call any of my bows native bows even if they aren't, on the other hand I could do that anyway since I do have a card :).
Well done in any case and happy to see that heat-treating worked so well on that Maple
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Nice bow. I like the style. Call it what you want.
Certainly shouldn't be selling stuff as if it legitimately came from the hands of a Native.
It would be nice if the Natives stopped selling stuff made in China as Native though. Lot of that out there.
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It would indeed Pat.
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First, let me say that IndianGuy and I have spoken by PM. We have decided that it was in both our best interest that we agree to disagree on this and move on from it. Try to find some common ground on which we can agree and we have. Neither of us is likely to change our minds on this issue and that's ok. More than ok, it's ideal that we can disagree, strongly, and then shake hands and move on.
Traxx, I find your comment beyond ridiculous. You've read this post and believe that I am guilty of attempting some type of fraud? This bow was made as a gift for a 13 year old girl. She and her parents had seen a bow of mine and asked if I would make her and her dad each a bow. I make kids bows for free. I wont charge anything for them. I love making bows and I love seeing kids shoot them. She had asked if I could put horse hair on it from her horses, so a Plains Bow it was. They were not looking for any type of collectable, just a couple of fun bows they can shoot together. This was not an attempt at making a replica in any sense of the word and I did not put it forward as such. It has a Dacron string and a Poly finish on it?? I can and do make replicas and I will identify them as such. By the way her mother is as white as I am and her father is Indian...from India. I normally direct people to this site if I have made a bow for them so they can read about it, and the kids think it just too cool that their bow has been seen and commented on by people all over the world. I wont be able to do that on this one because of all this nonsense. What disturbs me more Traxx is rather than engage me in some type open discussion on this topic, you call for the thread to be shut down and any further discussion ended. I find that idea very troubling Sir. Re-read the post and see if you may have missed something.
Oglala Bowyer, your pedigree looks remarkably similar to mine. :)
Curt, thanks for chiming in. Your work on items of the Southern Cheyenne culture is known far and wide as some of the best recreations in the world. The schools and seminars you put on for adults and children alike to teach about this culture should be and in fact are seen by many of every ethnicity as an honor to the period and the people. I am honored to call you my friend.
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PeteC, the Sugar Maple came from a friend of mine from Kansas, Ken Weidner, who sent it to me as a gift. He also does some of the finest recreations you will ever see. His saddles are just unbelievable.
Thanks Marc. This wood responded better to heat treating than any wood I have tried. Remarkable difference.
Thanks PatM, I ain't touching that one! :)
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Traxx, I find your comment beyond ridiculous. You've read this post and believe that I am guilty of attempting some type of fraud?
Nope never said that.what i did say was that Eric was right about federal laws,pertaining to non native people,representing themselves as native in any way and profiting from it.I also said that it is a law regardless whether people agree with it or not and find it "silly".
What disturbs me more Traxx is rather than engage me in some type open discussion on this topic, you call for the thread to be shut down and any further discussion ended. I find that idea very troubling Sir.
Once again,Nope.
What i did say was,that threads in the past,that have discussed illegal activity such as those misrepresenting themselves as native,have been closed.
I normally direct people to this site if I have made a bow for them so they can read about it, and the kids think it just too cool that there bow has been seen and commented on by people all over the world. I wont be able to do that on this one because of all this nonsense.
Once again,This isnt about being politically correct[,two terms that i dont think should ever be used in the same sentence] but its about RESPECT.Eric ,who i thought was polite in warning others of the slippery slope that many take these days to illegally profit from and disrespect native people and culture.Native people refer to these as culture vultures and they do take offense and rightly so,considering past history.It would have been just as easy for you to listen to what Eric said and took it under advisement and maybe reflect on how it affects others feelings,rather than tell them that they are silly, ridiculous and PC.all it took from you was 1 word and a little effort to show some respect,and this could have been diffused.There are others who are non native,who make wonderful reproduction items and post it on here,all the time,but they are respectful in how they present it and i have witnessed and been a part of Native people giving them a standing ovation for their efforts and knowledge.
Its all about respect really. give it some thought.
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Traxx you and I go way back brother. Thank you or your thoughts.
Let's move on and bury the hatchet. Cant win them all. Thanks to those that sent emails on this subject.
Happy Easter to all.
E
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Traxx, the issue between Eric and I has been settled, privately between the two of us and I will say no more about it. I believe he and I are fine at this point. You should follow his example and his advice.
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works for me.
Maybe next time,it would be best,to keep it in PM and not address it to the public forum or at least keep it to the subject of the discussion,without singling anyone out personally.
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Cool lil bow slim!! :)
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Thanks Blackhawk.
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Little lady's going to love it :)
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Slimbob, most everybody liked the bow. So while you don't want her to see the other stuff, copy and paste onto a document all the good things said about her bow and let her read that. That would be like they do with the BOM in the magazine. I hope you will post some pics of her shooting it that I can see when I’m once again back to just reading posts over Wildkatts shoulder. :)
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Her birthday was Tuesday and she got the bow that afternoon. We had a practice session for an hour or so and she did very well. I got a note and a photo yesterday that she loves the bow and she is shooting it well. A number of us are going to a 3D shoot in May and she wants to go and shoot as well so I have a big-ole smile on my face. Thanks Ms. Kitty.
Thanks also Olanigw
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Awesome!
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Well that was quite a ride to get there but seems like it was worth it. Looks like a young lady proud of her sweet new bow. Can't get much better than that in my opinion.
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That is awesome!!!!! Looks like she is enjoying it, good on ya ;)
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Its all about respect really. give it some thought.
:o hello pot, kettle calling..
Slimbob, Awesome bow and a great gesture to get the kids involved!
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That's pretty cool slim. Looks like it fits her great. I'm sure she loves it :)......how could she not
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Thanks Greg, paoliguy, soy, Blackcoyote and Matt. Thanks to all who have commented on this post whether we have been in agreement or not. Our having disagreed seems far less important than our ability to have done so.
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Very cool !! Hope this is the beginning of a wonderful lifelong addiction to archery.
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There's nothing better than passing the archers torch. great little bow Slimbob
Knapper
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that bow goes nice smooth altogether excellent work!!