Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => HowTo's and Build-a-longs => Topic started by: Keenan on January 01, 2008, 09:28:33 pm
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Well, as per Gordons request I will attempt a buildalong on one of those narly syringa character staves that Dave talked me into cutting.
The stave I've chosen has some wild bumps and dives so I will try to find a spot where the tips and handle area all line up. We could ofcoarse heat bend or clamp things into alignment but I like to use the natural shape as much as possible. There is also a slight reflex to one side that is fairly clear of knots so this will be the back of the bow. By laying a tape from one tip and pulling straight across the handle toward the other tip I use the side of the tape as a striaght edge to see where the tip would fall. In this case the intersect point is about 60" with the handle area that lines up being right around 30" so I will cut at about 61 to leave a little for safety. I could have left this stave a little longer but would require much more straightening and also would have put the clump of knots in a higher stress area just past the fades. This way the knotty section will be the handle.
I think to often we approach a stave with a mindset of forcing the wood to do or be what we want rather then carefully examining and reading the stave to see where the bow is, that is within. If I were to attempt to force this stave to be a perfectly shaped ELB it would ofcoarse be a complete disaster. Yet that dosen't mean there isn't a good bow inside. As JD stated about his character bow. "it is, what it is".
However Character dosen't always mean that the bow will not last or have poor performance. By being carefull where the bow is laided out in the stave, and minimizing excessive wieght in the limbs, you can have a great bow that will turn heads everywhere you go.
Dave showed me a bow that he had made from syringa and he had split the stave right down through the pith and it worked well. I could split this one the same way, but it would leave the handlle area thin so I have decided to trim the belly limbs with the bandsaw. That way I can leave the handle area natural and not have to do a build up for the handle. Here is the stave. Keenan
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Really lookin forward to this one, thanks keenan....Brian
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First I will carefully debark to make sure there are no unseen knots and also to help smooth the travle of the stave through the saw. I've used the drawknife for the rough bark removal by gentle shallow draws on the stave. Then I removed the remaining canbium with a scraper.This way I don't risk violating the back of the bow. I could have left the canbium for looks but will probably add skins so I decided to clean it up.
The cleaned up pic shows the handle area.
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Next I'm going to trim the excess belly wood off the limbs. I've double checked to make sure the layout on the handle area will work. I will try to trim close to the pith line in the center but will make sure not to cut to deep and leave the pith line as a guage for depth while roughing in.Also I will be carefull to leave the handle section in tact.
I do this by first marking a horizontal line on the end of the stave with the back of the stave up. This way when I lay it on it's side I have a good reference for where the back of the bow will be. I start the cut on the far end, paying attention to my now vertical line on the near end. As the cut gets close to the handle area, I stear the cut out of the stave to leave the handle.
Sorry but the pics of the line and the cutting didn't turn out. here are the trimmed off pieces.
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Next I Shaped the limbs down a little more with a farrier's rasp to the point where I could see the pith center. I worked the tips down past the pith a little and worked the fades to roughout shape to minimize the hadle section for better drying. I am hoping the handle area dosen't check while drying.
You can see where I used a small file to clean the pith center.
At this point I am stopping to allow the stave to dry. I have set the stave in the vice with the belly facing up and wieght hanging on the tips to induce a little more reflex. Keenan
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This is going to be a great build-a-long Keenan. I can't tell you how much I am looking forward to seeing how you work.
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Keenan, I would paint the fades with wood glue or it will most certainly dry check there. Good luck this should be interesting. ;D
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This is gonna be good!!! 8) Pat
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Gordon and Pat thanks for your votes of confidence. I hope we are able to pull a bow out of this stave. I will try to be as detailed as I can while trying to problem solve along the way.
Having no experience working syringa befor this except the arrows shoots that Dave just gave me, should make this intresting. I have seen and pulled a bow, that He made from syringa, and I was very surprized at the strength for such a small bow.
After seeing how durable and flexable the arrow shoots are. I'm very currious to see what kind of bow it's capable of. Dave has some staves that we cut yesturday that could make an ELB.
We are also going to play around with roughing out and shaping one, while green, for a double curved bow. I did some testing today and the stuff forms very well while green. As long as we can keep the checking in control it should work.
Ryano, Thanks, I agree, that little nagging voice says I better head back out to the shop and seal the fades. Thanks for confirming what my mind was telling me. Keenan
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Just for info here is what the growth rings look like. The white center is the pith. Keenan
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Keenan, I never heard of syringa. Is it some type of flowering bush/shrub?
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Ryan, It's a flowering bush, check out the syringa arrow buildalong that JJ is doing. He gives a little more detail and pics of the bush/tree Keenan
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Thanks Keenan. I know it as mock orange. There's a big clump of it in my mom's yard next to the drive way. I have to trim it back every year. Ive wondered about making arrows from it, never thought of it as a bow wood though. now you got me really interested....... :)
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Ok, so far things are going good. The stave survived the night without checking, but the for next few days it should be losing alot of moisture.
Here are some pics of the handle section. As you can see there is a slight natural cant to the left in the handle area. This might be best to be a left handed bow? Being right handed I usually make right handed bows. However I have had some request for lefties. Maybe leave the handle natural for shooting off either side. But it would be good to wait and see string alignment later. Keenan
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I like how you are utilizing the natural shape of the wood for the handle.
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looking good Keenan ;D you cant blame me for you wanting that stave! you grabbed it first off the pile. :D
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Not so good today. The limbs or starting to check right down the pith groove. I will take the limbs down a little more below the pith line and then seal them up. Keenan
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Doh! >:( hope you can fixer up Keenan. :)
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That is to bad Keenan. I believe in your ability to save it though. Justin
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A big part of making bows is solving problems - might as well start now :)
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Thanks for the encouragement guys.
Gordon you are so right. "A big part of making bows is solving problems - might as well start now"
Rather then thinning the limbs, and take the chance of coming in real light, I decided to fill the cracks with super glue and some fine dust off the sander. A few years ago I had a yew bow that was checking the same way and I filled the cracks with the real fine saw dust a then saturated with super glue and it worked well. The super glue turns the sawdust darker even if you use the same wood but on the yew it blended fairly well.
I 'm sure that I will take alot of that wood out while tillering it in. But if there is still some of the checks showing I might have to name this bow "scarface" LOL
I guess plan "B" could be thread rapping the limbs???? The entire length. LOL I'll try to post some more pics later today showing the cracks and glue job. Keenan
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I am very happy to have found your build along. I have yet to complete a bow! yet I have been drawn to "unusual" woods (whatever that means). I happen to have a stave of syringa seasoning in the basement. This stuff checks like crazy! I think the stave I have is safe, bark on varnished ends.
Is this syringa vulgaris....I know it as lilac?
What an interesting smell this wood has. Flowery and fruity..very neat. I plan on making small boxes and such out of the waste.
I can't wait to see the progress! right on man.
Eric
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Were you able to salvage the stave Keenan? ???
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It's doing good so far Ryano, I worked on it a llittle bit Saturday and got it to floor tiller stage. I'll try to update this and post some more pics and progress later today. I 've been watching the weight on it and making sure to get it good and dry befor working the limbs, But it's looking like it might work out.
Eric, keep at it. there is nothing like the feeling of shooting your first successful bow. Syringa seems to be like bambo. Dave had a node pop a splinter on one that he has made and I did a little testing on a few peices and was able to see the same thing. The bow he made spit arrows out with some serious speed and excellent cast but it appears the nodes might be tricky. Keenan
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Ok This stave has finally quit dropping in weight and though it checked in a few places I think a bow is still possible. The drying checks were length ways along the pith grove in a few spots and a lightning bolt like crack in the handle area. As they started to appear I rubbed fine saw dust into them and applied super glue. This stopped the progression of the cracks.
As you can see in this first pic, the pith grove gives a good center line to follow. Following the center line of the stave is a must with character staves. I will taper the limbs in thickness from mid limb towards the tip first.
At first I took a few shallow and carefull draws with my draw knife along the belly, so that I can see how the grain is running. Be very carefull doing this as it is easy to rip out a piece of wood on character staves.Often with character staves you will have dips and dives in the grain or hader spots from knotts that create week spots if you thin down with the band saw.
I will then mark and note the problem areas, and then rough out the limb with a farrier's rasp. The pic with the pencil is showing one of the areas that the grain takes a dip. Keenan
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The kink in this one limb is probably going to be one of the hardest areas to work with. It's a sharp dip and the wood in that area is fairly hard and simmilar to a burl. I don't think I will be able to heat or steam this one out completely so I will try to decide how to make the profile work into the bow. Keenan
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And here are a few more pics of the challenges ahead. Most would consider this endever a foolish waist of time and energy and I have plenty of wood that is straight and clean. However I like challenges and I'm convinced that character bows always teach you so much more. I just hope my lesson isn't to just pick a straighter piece of wood. LOL Keenan
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Looks good so far keenan, keep up the good work.
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I have never thought about using ....syringa......Lilac .....for a Bow....I have two Lilac Bushes in the Yard.....they had better look out!!!
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I was over in Keenan's neck of the woods this weekend and saw this stave. I'm not sure I would be brave enough to take on a piece like this, yet alone do it as a build-a-long! Keenan also showed me some of his finished bows - that boy can sure turn out a fine bow.
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Thank you Gordon,
That means alot to me coming from such a master craftsman as yourself. I talked with Dave and we have a good spot for our get together and bunny shoot this spring.
I'm not sure that I can pull this one off, but I was inspired by what John Strunk said Saturday about trying anything to see if it would make a bow. Guess thats where I'm at in life. If it dosn't work out I know I will learn something in the process.
PS. It was sure a thrill to see you sitting up there on that pannel of famous bowyers like John Strunk.Your input and representation of primitive bowyers was awesome. I'm still losing sleep over all those nice bows that I saw. ;D ;D ;D Keenan
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not to mention he left with a couple of nice staves!!! ;D
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Your a good Man JJ. That was a great show you guys put together... Keenan
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here is a pic of Keenan instructing John Strunk on the correct way to make a bow. ;)
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Now thats funny,,,,, :D ;D,,,,,,,Keenan
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Ok, I'll bite what was this get together all about? Looks like ya'll had a good time.
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Ok, I'll bite what was this get together all about? Looks like ya'll had a good time.
this was the Traditional Archers of Oregon annual banquet, we had a bowyers panel which consisted of Norm Johnson of Blacktail Bows, John Strunk, self-bow extraordiare, Allan Boice of Liberty Bows, and Gordon Fertlletch. they answered questions from the audience and told about them and thier bows, we had tons of raffle items, door prizes and awards. it was a good time. here is a pic of the plaques I made for awards, I had some help in finishing them up. they are made of yew with syringa arrows.
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Those plaques were just awesome - seeing Dave tear up after receiving his spoke volumes.
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Ok time to up date this thread and show where we are. The side with the severe kink has proven to be a little challenging. I started by test some scraps that were left over.To see just how much, I could heat bend without breaking. As expected it works well over a distance but a small consentrated area has it's limits.
Because this limb dips down then takes a turn back up. I will try for a slight deflex reflex profile. First I will take as much of the radical bend out of the sharp kink as possible. Then I will try to match it with the other limb by adding some reflex with heat.
I'm using an old glue up form that I have, as a clamping jig. With this sharp bend, trying to use a backing plate on the inside is difficult some I'm just going to hold my breath and try not to ask to much from the wood.
You will notice the heat gun is relatively close to the wood. This is because I am just adding a little more heat to the already heated limb. As Gordon stated on his buildalong, You should hold the gun 5" or there abouts to get a slow deep heat.
You can see on the view looking down that the handle area is in line with the tips. In the last pic you can see that the profile is starting to match. It's not perfect but is a good starting point and we can do a little bending to see what things are looking like. My daughter made the mistake of wandering out to the shop, so I imposed. She said if any of her friends she the pic, I will owe her big time... Keenan
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After letting the stave sit a few days, I put it on the tillering post. You should always wait a day or two after doing any heat bending, befor stressing the limbs.
As you can see the profile is not perfect, but is close. I may do a little more heat bending after I see how the tiller is shaping up. As you can see the right limb is fairly stiff at this point. So I will work on this area some to even things out.
The last pic shows the right limb bending more after removing a little wood and then excerising it a little. I leave the tips fairly stiff at this point untill I get it to the bracing point. Keenan
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Keenan..I cant decide if its ugly or beautiful ;D...but it definatly shows off your great ability as a bowyer.....Brian
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LOL,, Thanks Brian, I might have to call it the "ugly stick",,,,LOL,,,,But I think the only thing it's showing off is a severe sickness for character bows. And a lack of comon sense,,,,,,, ;D ::) Keenan
Here is a little more progress. Time to go to a brace, so I cut in some string groves. I do mine similar to the way Gordon dose but I rarely measure anything. I just eyeball about 3/4 from the tip and at a fair angle to the limb.
As mentioned by others the first bracing is always a little never racking because it will sometimes reveal weak spots or hinges that are not visable on a long string. It survived being strung to brace. But right limb is definately a little stiff in the mid limb. Keenan
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Syringa is Lilac right, I see ryano called it mock orange. Is this it?
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Yes Dana, However sometimes has white flowers instead of the purple. Keenan
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Dana, That is what juniper junky said it was. My mom has a mock orange bush in her front yard, not sure if its the same thing or not ?
I have been getting a lot of questions on the syringa arrows I have been shooting for a while now. so I thought I would share with you how I build them. Syringa (philadelphus lewisii) grows throughout the more arid regions of the northwest and northern california, also referred to as mock orange, it grows in rocky hillsides and along creek bottoms, in the mid summer it blooms with a white flower, which is Idaho's state flower. it produces shoots and seeds for distribution. usually growing in clusters of shoots ranging in size depending on the age of the plant. the plants which grow in the more shady areas produce the longer shoots. shoots with reddish color bark are sucker shoots and are weaker than the grayer bark ones and have a larger pith in the center. this is what a bush looks like.
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Thanks ryano, I think it was on PP I saw someone had posted a lilac bow and said it was an awesome wood.
I trimmed my lilac tree last year and kept some pieces that were 4-5" in diameter and they checked overnight,
but the wood is extremely hard, dense and tight ringed. Should make an awesome bow Keenan.
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Woohoo! You got her to brace without any major issues. Looking good Keenan!
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Keenan, that bow is so ugly its cute ;D, if it holds together you can name it "frankenstien". Dana, the Syringa we are using is of the lilac family, but not the same as the regular lilac, it has a small white flower, you can see what it looks like if you google search and look at the pics of the Idaho state flower.
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Did a bit of research, your Syringa is not lilac, but I believe they share some similarities.
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Hey all,
according to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syringa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syringa) and my own experience (syringa grows in lots of gardens over here) the flower can be white, lilac or even boreaux coloured.
Keenan: great project! Good luck for finishing it!
Stefan
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Brace is a big step and I have to say it looks pretty good.I have seen a lot worse at first brace.
You might just get a shooter out of that yet.I love the anticipation when working on something like that,it's like a roller coaster ride ,sometimes your up and in the next instance your are down,
and then up again,Ye Ha !!!!! ;) ;D ;D
Pappy
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Thanks for the votes of confidence everyone, Believe me they are needed on this one.
Pappy, I agree, anticipation is a great driving force and you are so right about the roller coaster ride of great hopes and then major challenges.
JJ, I take that as a great compliment, ;D :D "that bow is so ugly it's cute" Maby we should all have an ugly bow contest sometime ??? ??? >:D Keenan
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Keenan, I'm amazed that you've got that crookedy stick braced now-you da man. Very interesting build-along so far, looking forward to the next installment. We've got a couple species of Philadelphus that grow here, but ours are a lot smaller and shrubbier.
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Thanks Hillbilly, But considering the amount of highly skilled craftsman on this site (yourself included), at times I still think of myself as a rooky with lots to learn.
Here it is braced again after taking some more wood off at mid limb on the straighter limb. Although the brace looks better and more even the limbs are still way to stiff at mid limb. This part can be tricky on the tiller because the reflex starts about the outer third of the limb and you have to keep in mind the original profile while unbraced. Though they look straight as though not bending at all, they have bent a fair aamount from the natural profile.
The third pic shows a lack of patience and relaxed judgement on my part. I was excercising the limb and trying to get a pic to show the places that are stiff and went just a hair to far and held a second to long. Splinter popped up right on the crown of the stiff side.
I think it's repairable. Just another challenge to overcome. :o :'( ::) ;D
Now that I look at the pics I'm convinced that I'm either in denile or an extream optimist,,,,,,Keenan
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I heated the limb fairly warm and very gently lift one side of the splinter and poured in some super glue while holding the bow vertical to get the glue all the way down in the splinter. Then clamped that side down and after it was dry I flip the bow vertically and did the same with the other side of the splinter. After allowing a little while to dry did a few wraps with sinew.
At this point I will wait and see how the rest of the tillering comes together befor trying to figure out how to blend things cosmeticaly.
The splinter lifted on the right limb right at the third grid line from the post. You can see here that after the repair the brace still looks close to the same.
And a few shots showing 12", 14" and 16" of draw. Still have alot of fine tuning to do on the tiller. Still looking stiff from mid limbs to the tips.
Last pic of the string aliagnment. Shows very well why this will be a bow for a lefty. Keenan
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Persverence Keenan. She's coming together. Great build along.
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Real Sinew.....I like to see that!!! If anyone can coax the Bow from this enchanted piece of Growth....it is you Keenan.....you have my total respect for even attempting this one!!
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Dana thanks, Perseverence and obsession are very similar. My wife would say it's an obsession. ;D ;D ;D
Yankee, Thanks I like to use the sinew when I can. It's truely is amazingly strong stuff. "Enchanted piece of wood" I like that. ;D ;)
I like to do things primitive but sometimes todays tools can really aid. If your not sure what your eyes are telling you. Just take a pic and use your photo program to draw in an equlipes. Kind of like this.
In the brace possision the limbs match fairly well, but as you can see in the second pic the left limb needs to catch up a little. If I were to just look at where to tips are I would not notice the difference. Keenan
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One thing I have noticed is that I see alot of bows clamped to the tillering post. I think this can sometimes give false readings. If your bow is clamped solid and not alowed to pivot where it is held then there is the possibilty that you can be pulling more on one limb then the other.
Also I think it's important to have the bow supported right where the crotch of your thumb /forfinger would be. I know that in the past I've tillered bows that looked fine on the tillering tree but were slightly different when pulling to full draw.
Not sure if my thoughts and logic are sound but it led me to making my tillering set up like this.
It's a strap that is just nailed the the post, allowing the bow to ballance out and pivot. Seems to work good but it might not work as well if the limbs are unballanced. Keenan
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Keenan, looking good. Problems always occur. Endeavor to persevere.
Just to set things straight, Syringa is the family that lilac belongs to. It can be anything form common lilac (Syringa vulgaris) to Japanese lilac tree (Syringa reticulata) and even a bunch of hybrids. All I have ever seen have hard wood and should be good.
Ryan, you moms mock orange is of the family Philadelphus. Justin
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Thanks Justin, Sorry not much progress the last few days, It's snowing bucket loads here right now. We have about 2 ft and another 10-16" on the way. Been a chore just keeping the paths to the shop,barn and chicken cope and the drive way is a whole other project. I should be back on it soon, Keenan
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I like the looks of it! It'll be a good character bow. After seeing your build along, I've decided that I'll get started on a rather crooked piece of wood I have sitting in my pile. Thanks! :)
Sean
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Sean, Thank you, I'm glad your endevering to start on a character challenge. Just take your time and if your not sure of how to approach something just step away for a little while and ponder your options. If your still puzzled just ask and I'm sure you'll get alot of help on here.
I've decided to make an attempt to even up the limbs a little more. The left limb with the dog leg is just a bit to long,so I will cut off the tip right at the string groves and file in some new ones. Also I have decided to try to remove some of the natural deflex right befor the dip,and also tame that reflex just a bit more this should help to ballance out the bow.
This shouldn't make a huge change, but the more I looked at it the more it bugged me. Keenan
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Well here it is after a little tweeking. I heated very slowly with the heat gun to get a good even heat penetration then I used the table vice with some rubber pads in key spots to apply the presure. Then let it sit for several hrs. befor unclamping.
As I said, this wasn't meant to make big changes but just a little fine tunning to help the tillering. You can see it mellowed the kink just a bit more but that caused the tip to roll up a little so I heated that area and relaxed the reflex slightly.
Now it will sit for at least a day to gain back so moisture that was lost in the heating. "Golden rule" don't give to the temptation to string or work the limbs after heat treating any wood.
I suspect I will lose some of it but considering where we started from I didn't want to push it any more ,its been stressed enough already. Keenan
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Looks a lot better now Keean....dint want to push it too far anyways....I bet this little bump will make tillering a lot easier than it would have been before the Heat....good luck...you have more patience than I do!!!
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Is this thing gona make it Keenan?
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Yep Ryan, she's still holding together. Had to set it down for a little bit to figure out direction to go with finish and so forth. I've decide to go ahead and put some sturgeon skins on it. I am using the lighter underisdes that I had left over from another bow. I'll try to get this done and updated soon. Haven't done much since the last except to shoot it some and see if she's going to stay together. I am right handed and this is a lefty so I'm learning to shoot left handed.... Good thing I have a good backstop.. ;D I'm begining to agree with JJ ,,,this is one ugly bow,,,, :D Keenan
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Sorry for the delays on this one. I seem to be very ADD and I got excited about a couple other projects that I just couldn't put down.
The sturgeon skins I'm going to use are the lower side and are light colored and almost transparent. So I'm going to use Gordons method of black dye on the wood to try to enhance the color of the skin. I chose sturgeon because it will add some protection as a backing and I've never used the lighter underside of the skin and want to experiment on this one.
I used the rit leather dye straight out of the bottle. Wiped it on with a piece of rag then let it dry a for a day. Keenan
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Next is finishing the tips befor the skins go on. I will give this one, deer horn tips to match the bone flake in the skins. I often use sheds that I find that are weathered or have been chewed on by the squirels. I like deer and elk horn because it is fairly lightweight and adds some protection and character to the tips. It can also be sanded and shaped to match the bow.
First I sand the tips at an angle to give a good platform for the horn. Then holding the horn behind the bow tip I try to match the flow of the back of the bow to mark the angle of the cut on the tip. I use a bandsaw to cut the horn but any saw will work. Just be carefull with powersaws as the horn is tough and can pull in towards the blade very fast.
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After cutting the tips I will sand the on the belt sander till I get a good match up and the right angle. I try for more of a line up with the back of the bow. Keeping in mind the excess on the belly side can sand off. Also you will notice that the bow platform is generally wider then the base of the tip unless you tip is already very narrow. This also will sand off after the tip is set.
If the angle dosen't match, just sand more on the toe or the heal of the tip. If the toe of the horn tip is to long you can also sand on the top side of the horn tip to shorten the toe.
You can see the progression of the angle change from the first pic to the last. Notive the flow of the back of the limb to the tip.
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Now to glue these tips on. I sand the sides of the bow tip, just slightly to help to stay centered during the glue up. Then I use a saw bade to score the surface of the wood and the horn by just a few good even pulls. Then dampen both parts lightly and then set with 5 minute epoxy. I've used everything from super glue,gorrillla glue, titebond and epoxy they will all work but epoxy is fast and clean-up is minimal. Also epoxy seems to take less clamping pressure. Sorry some of these pics are blurry. Keenan
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Looking good Keenan. Justin
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Thanks Justin. The encouragement is helpfull. This is the ugliest bow I've made in a long time. What was I thinking?? ??? ::)
Here are a few pics of the nocks finished up. Next I will shape in the handle some more befor put on the skins. I wanted to use as much of the natural shape as possible. Right now it is a little to bulky and we want to make it comfortable and fit the hand better. Here is what I came up with, I left the natural angle but smoothed out some of the humps to fit the hand and sanded down the rub scar to give a better arrow pass.
Keep in mind this is for a lefty. The natural angle of the handle fits well to shoot left handed only. The arrow pass will be right about the top of the rub blemish.
My wife is wondering why all the handles I shape, look so much like a womens hips.... ;D ;D ::)
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Keenan..I like them Tips....gives me some Ideas on what to use all of the Sheds I have ....nice touch
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Thanks Yankee.
Today I will be putting on the sturgeon skins. I will be using sinew glue. It's not waterproof but the finish will protect it and I like the way it draws it to the bow when it dries. It's also alot easier to clean up afterward. The sturgeon skins is so rough with the bone flakes, that trying to get tightbond off after it has dried, can be a real bear.
I start by cutting in a notch for the tip and make sure the lengths are good as well. An old pair of scissors works well (not your wife's good pair) ;D ;D I also cut off the larger bone flakes on the side so they wont hang on the wrapping.Then I put the skin in a pan of warm (not hot) water. Then I put a coat of the glue on the back of the bow to start soaking in.
While the skin is getting rehydrated I prepare the wrap. For this I like to use self adhereing drywall tape, (fiberglass) Rut Roe, I said the (F) word. Befor anyone crucifies me, Let me say this is only a temp wrap and WILL BE THROWN AWAY AND BURNED ;D >:D
I like this as a wrap because it's easy to work with, it's cheap, it allows air to the skin for faster drying, and you can see through it to see if the skin is where it needs to be.
I cut it into 3/8 - 1/2" strips that are about 3 ft long.
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Looking great Keenan ! The Sturgeon skin is really going to look nice :o
Thanks for the build along, i've learned a lot already ;D
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I had a long interupting phone call and forgot about the skins in the water on the stove. The results are curled up and cooked skins that are ruined. Opps >:(
Cooled down the water and put in some new skins. Reaplied some glue to the back of the bow and let the skins soften up. When they get pliable and you are able to stretch the small end (sideways) they are ready to put on. Take out of the water and wipe off, then dip the skin in the glue.
I start at the tip with a few wraps on the horn, then line up the notch and start wraping over the skin. I overlap slightly and use fairly light pressure. If your wrap to tight it will leave marks in the skin. You want just tight enough to hold the skin against the wood.
Wrap all the way to the center then start from the other tip coming back. Be sure to keep an eye on the glue that is on the bow. If it is drying out, just dab some more on, ahead of the section that you are doing.
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Thanks Formerbutcher, I've learned alot from everyone on this site and just hope to help do the same.
When you get the second skin to the center you will need a good sharp pair of scissors to match up the cuts . It hard to get a good cut on soft pliable skin with dull scissors. Just be sure to wipe off the glue and put them back in her craft room befor she gets home. Here we are with the whole bow wrapped. Now we will let it set overnight and unwrap it in the morning. Keenan
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Darn.....wish I had enough Sturgeon Hide to Cook a Set...and still be able to finish the same night!!!! :o :o Brilliant Idea with the F.G. Tape....does it work as nice as ACE Bandages do???
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Yankee, it works well if cut into thin strips. Gives a little more control around the humps and curves. but you have to be carefull not to get it to tight and leave marks in the skin. Ace bandage is more forgiving but you can't see what the skin looks like through it, and I think the drywall tape allows more air circulation to dry better. Keenan
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Ahh, so that's how you do those tips. Never thought to use drywall tape - good idea. I like using hide glue for skins also, but I prefer the liquid stuff - it's easier to apply.
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Yankee, it works well if cut into thin strips. Gives a little more control around the humps and curves. but you have to be carefull not to get it to tight and leave marks in the skin. Ace bandage is more forgiving but you can't see what the skin looks like through it, and I think the drywall tape allows more air circulation to dry better. Keenan
Sounds like a Plan for my next skin job...Thanks Keenan......I too like Hide Glue...it draws the Skins down really tight when it dries...and cleanup is a Breeze with a Wet Warm Washcloth....just don't let the Wife catch you using them either!!!!
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;D ;D ;D, Yankee, I've been caught using her good material roller cutter on leather so many times that she bought me my own for Christmas. She got tired of the dish towles ending up as rags and so she went to the thrift store and came home with a whole pile of shirts for me to cut up. I'm afraid that I will probably be kicked out of her sewing /craft room soon if I get caught one more time using it as a finish room for the bows. Keenan
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You sound like Me!! My Wife has marked Her Good Sissors...Fabric Cutter....that little Stitch Marking Wheelie looking Doo-Dad....and a bunch of other Stuff with a Sharpie....say "MINE" on them!!! So like I asked Her when I got caught with the Sissors again.....doesnt this mean they are Mine!!!!!! >:D >:D So She went to Town and got Me my own.....now I have a pair of each in the Garage that I wrote "MINE TOO" on!!!! Glad She has a sense of Humour!!! Has to....Shes been married to Me for 26 years!!!
Nuff of that.....Lets see the Boww....we're all wanting to see the Unveiling....so get to it!!!!!!!!!!
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WOW !!! - can't wait to see the finished bow!
frank
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Ok here she is unwraped. It looks like the skin is firmly adhered to the bow and things look fairly good. I had hoped it would be a little darker but what I'm seeing is real pleasing. The lighter under skin of the sturgeon is more transparent and seems to always have a milky color to it. It will be intresting to see how it looks with finish on it.
In the last pic I have it laying by another bow that I'm building rght now.(sneak preview) I used the upper portion of the same fish on that one and you can see the color difference. However that bow dose have one coat of finish on it. Keenan
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looks real good. this has been a fun buildalong.
could i use drywall tape for applying cherry bark?
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Thanks David, I would think it would work great for bark backings. Give it a try and let us know. You can just test a small piece that is shaped the same as the bow. It works great where ther is a crown but on a bow with a wider flat back you might not get enough presure in the middle. Just a thought. Keenan
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Keenan that is just downright sick ;D The skin is so unique.
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Those are some mighty crooked sticks you' re making there Keenan :o
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Thanks Dana and Gordon.
Ok for the next step I have trimmed the skinsand cleaned it up a little. First I wipe the top of the skins down real good with damp rag to remove any of the glue that got on the outside of the skin. You will notice that with sturgeon they will wipe better towards the tail as with most fish. They don't have scale but the bone flake is still directional.
I should have mentioned earlier but didn't think about it, but it is helps to leave the the limbs slightly wide and sharp on the edges. This helps while sanding the edges in. I just sand them lightly on the edge with the belt sander, just enough to cut through the skin and see the wood a little. This way you don't have to sand the belly very much at all.
After I get the edges sanded through, I just peal off the excess on the belly. Then I take the damp rag and wipe off the excess glue. Being carefull not to get the edges of the skin damp. Then wait a day and look for any areas lifting. If I find any lose skin I take super glue and a little awl for a smoother and work the edges down. I sometimes will go along the entire edge with a light coat of super glue and work the whole edge down. It helps to seal it and gives an better line for the finish But if you do, make sure you sand real well to remove any glue on the wood especially if staining or it will show.
After this I take a palm sander and some 150 grit and sand the edges in carefully. Blending in the edge to a slight oval shape. This has just become habit.I think because on one of the first bows that I made I left the edges kind of square and trimmed the snake skins flush to the belly. I noticed after a few years that they wore real bad right on the sharp edge. Since then I have always gone for more of a rounded edge and keep the skins off the edge slightly.
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From here we need to wait a few days to re-check the tiller and shoot it a little. We put a little moisture in the wood while glueing the wet skins on and wiping down for clean up. This isn't the time to get impatient and string it too early. for now I need to plan out how I'm going to do the handle and also how to hide all the battle wounds on this thing,,,,,,,,,hey there it is ::) ;D ;D the name for this one has to be "Battle Wounds" When I found this stave, It already had several scars the most obvious is the rub mark that created the brown stained area on the handle. In drying it developed several cracks that I was constantly keeping in check with super glue. And then as if it needed anymore we had the splinter pop on the top of one limb by a node. Some how that wasn't the final rebellion by this piece of wood.As I tried to remove some of the natural deflex near the handle another little sliver popped up. And last but not least there are those pith groves.
Yes this has been a hard fought battle, I seemed to be somewhat stuburn when I think I can make something work out. been this way most of my life and it has cost me dearly at times. Funny how it takes a bow to show me this.
I'm thinking the best way to blend in a few wounds is to stain the limbs. The darker would probably be the better but I like the contrast of the skin and the wood. Maybe a comprimise. ;) Keenan
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I say leave Her White...and let Her Scars give Her Character......thats an Awesome Bow Keenan.....why try and Hide any of it??
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thanks Yankee, Thinking along the same lines but not hiding more of an enhancing. The original rub mark looks so much like a fire flame Im thinking of trying to do something similar with the other scars. :-\ ::) Keenan
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Keenan, looking great. I really like those antler tips, may have do some plagiarizing . ;D
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Thanks Hillbilly, ;D They can be duel purpose,,,, if you aren't nocked and ready it dubbles as a spear,, ;D :D Keenan
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looking good Keenan, hope you can shoot it wed night. we are having pizza ;D and starting next week will be shooting 3Ds instead of paper.
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Way cool Dave thanks for the heads up. I doubt that one will be ready, maybe ready to string but the thought of me trying to hit 3Ds off the finger, no shelf or handle wrap, no nock point and left handed to boot,,,,,,wow, your really trying for an inside edge this week,, ;D ;D Keenan
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Cool bow Keenan. You are an inspiration. 8) Pat
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Keenan, I tried your technique of using the belt sander to trim the excess off of a reawhide backed bow. It worked great - thank you buddy!
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Pat, thank you and back at ya ;D
Gordon, glad to here it. ;D ;D What are you working on now???? Keenan
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What are you working on now?
Oh just a short little osage recurve for a friend of mine who recently had neck surgery and can't pull a lot of weight. He's got a long draw so I'm shoring the back up with rawhide.
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Good idea on the belt sander,I've been using a file then a scraper on snake and rawhide
backing.The leaving it a little wider is also a good idea,especially with me and the belt sander. ;D
Looking good.Can't wait to see it finished. :)
Pappy
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Ok back on this one. Been sanding and checking tiller from time to time. The tiller stayed just about the same after ading the skins and I think it added a few pounds to the draw weight.
Shot it in some, but finding that difficult because I'm right handed and it 's a lefty and the way this handle is angled makes it hard to shoot right handed.
On a bow with drastic dips, dives and curves you need to look more at what is moving and overall limb shape and not as much in having every part perfectly the same. It just wont happen on some serious character bows. Just try to get as much of the limb working as you can.
I decided to try something different on this finish. As I said befor there are alot of battle wounds on the bow and some natural spalting where the rub scar was so I'm going to try to imitate the spalting by useing the feathered edge of a rag dipped in the stain then just lightly broom it on in light streeks. Here is the results. It hid alot of the scars very well. this is just stained with no finish yet. Keenan
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just read through the whole thing...Great work! very humbling. im still struggling with clear strait wood. i do have a couple of lilac bushes that are more like trees now, havnt been pruned in years. might have to try some. im looking forward to seeing it completed.
Phil
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Thanks Phil, I plan on writing a note at the end about my thoughts and findings on syringa.
Here are some pics of the skin with a few coats of finish. I'm just using spray on polyeurothane on these. With the bone flake on the skins it makes it hard to do true oils or other things without getting the cloth particles caught in the bone flake. This is just a few coats with more to come. Keenan
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Oh boy that sure is looking good! You got the touch for sure.
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That is some wild looking wood Keenan. You sure got a beauty out of it..
Rich
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Thanks Phil, I plan on writing a note at the end about my thoughts and findings on syringa.
Here are some pics of the skin with a few coats of finish. I'm just using spray on polyeurothane on these. With the bone flake on the skins it makes it hard to do true oils or other things without getting the cloth particles caught in the bone flake. This is just a few coats with more to come. Keenan
just a thought Keenan on syringa...we must remember that you took some of the most challenging staves to do your build-a-long and the other bow from. just as in other woods, the cleaner and least challenging the stave, the better the bow. we have found out that the nodes can be a problem area in that they can have imperfections or hollow spots which can cause splinters. :-\ but overall the wood lends itself to be a very good bow-wood. we talked about sinew backing which I believe could result in a extremely fast bow. my hats off to you for your daring :D in attempting to create a bow from such a challenging piece of wood, especially since so little was known about its quality. we have to do more experiments to find out what type of bow this wood is best suited for. just like osage makes a poor ELB, this wood may lend itself to more of a flatbow style. you did an outstanding job on both of the bows I saw and I think the other readers feel the same. keep up the good work.
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Dave thank you, I think you hit the nail on the head with that statement. All woods have there better designs and differing quallities, and as we endever to try new things we learn. I would agree that syringa would probably be an incredibly good wood to do a shorter flat sinew backed bow,,, ;D ;D ;D So are we racing or do ya already have my next shorty built >:D >:D Keenan
Thanks Gordon and Rich
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Haven't pick this one up for a while due to work and other projects but here is an update. With the skins fully cured and several coats of finish on here is a braced and full draw pic.
I've learned that I'm a lousy shot left handed and don't think I want to pursue trying to get any better. :-[
With all the dips, dives and curves it's hard to get pics to look right. I haven't wieghed this yet, and thought it would be fairly light but it has picked up a few pounds from the skins.
Don this one isn't done yet so not for BOM please. Thanks Keenan
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that turned out nice! great job on such a challenging piece of wood.
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Thanks JJ, It's amasing the difference of color in this one from using the underside of the sturgeon here is a comparison pick. Keenan
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Keenan, This bow is as good as it gets...and what this site is all about. Anyone can take a piece of osage, hickory, etc and make a good, well crafted bow but to take a relatively unknown wood with tons of character and make any kind of a serviceable bow is incredible. You have taken this to an entirely new level! 8) Seeing this process from the beginning really gets the creative juices flowing. Thanks for sharing the process and the finished product. It is an inspiration to the novice and veterans alike. 8) Pat
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Pat thank you. Your words of encouragement mean more then you know. There were many times where I wanted to give up on this one and thought myself to be a vain fool for thinking it could become a bow.
It was the encouragement and confidence that you and a few others had given early on that gave me the tenacity to complete this one. :) Keenan
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Keenan well done I will be looking at the neighbors Lilac bushes soon >:D
Did I mention I can shoot lefty ::) ;D
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Just finished reading your build-a-long. I'm kinda speechless. Thanks for the education. :)
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Thanks Dana and Dingleberry, I'm a sucker for character. Keenan
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Thanks Dana and Dingleberry, I'm a sucker for character. Keenan
TRUE STORY ;D