Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Cave Men only "Oooga Booga" => Topic started by: swamp monkey on July 01, 2014, 11:43:09 pm
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Anyone know what kind of shells the bannerstones at Indian knoll Kentucky were made of? Shells were crafted into triangular shape with a drilled hole in the middle. Several were slid on the atlatl shaft to make bannerstone. I am curious if these were freshwater or marine shells? I have intention to make such an atlatl with one of these bannerstones.
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Just a wild guess but I would imagine they would be marine shells. I've never see fresh water clams with shells that thick. Is there any coloration to the shells. Some marine clam shells have a purplish hue to them like what is used for wampum beads.
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Tough to say for sure but I wouldn't rule out native freshwater mussels, there were/are a handful species thick enough for the cultured pearl industry. I have held many that were approaching 1" thick.
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Wampum was made from Marine clams, cherry stones or quahogs. They have that purple tint inside.
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Native freshwater mussels are mostly white. However a few like the pink heel splitter have pink "nacre". So color alone will not be diagnostic. I too have seen a few species like the bluffer that get thick enough but I would be challenged to find a batch with sections flat enough and wide enough to make a 3 cm triangular shape. That does not mean it can't be done. That is why I am asking. Marine shells are possible too. I want to do this like they did. That is all.
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This is an obscure topic and I was elated to find a few more images to add to this post. These two images are from the University of Kentucky.
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I pulled this information from William Webb's book atlatls and bannerstones: excavations at Indian Knoll. He has some proposed reconstructions on page 323
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I did some reading on paleo planet last night regarding Indian knoll. There was some conjecture on Webb's handle supposition that I used to make this drawing. The spur and shell Bannerstones are all archeological evidence so there is no questioning that. No wood or discolored soil was used to create that handle design. In fact Webb may have been influenced by western ( basket maker style) atlatls that function In a different way. The handle he imagined is flat with finger loops. My experience with atlatls in the eastern U.S. Tells me there is a much better chance these atlatls had hammer style grips and round shafts. I will reimagine my handles. Obviously I am doing research for a recreation (aren't we all?).
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Looky here what you can find if you keep on lookin'!
http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/30811/Composite-shell-bannerstones#.U7sKKGK9KSM
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Apparently these shells were glued together with asphaltum. I need learn more about that. Below is a quote from Larry Kinsella who has inspected these bannerstones. I don't know what Larry does for a living but he is a keen experimental archeologist.
"How many with traces of adhesives still present would you have to see?
Dennis, very good point and I missed picking up on that idea. So, if the bannerstones at Indian Knoll were used as spindle whorls, why did they have all that asphaltum sticking to them. Also remember that some of the WPA workers, who cleaned the bannerstones, considered the asphaltum to be a stain and scrubbed a lot of that material off the artifacts. The shell composite banners were really glued together with the stuff and traces can be seen between the segments. . .
Larry"
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Some images from Larry Kinsella
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Very cool stuff. Thanks for the info. I love learning it all. 8)
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Obviously the question has been answered, but mussel shell decomposes and delaminates horribly over time and in archeological deposits. Almost all shell artifacts from Mississippian times and likely Hopewell are made from marine shell. It was a valued item of the day. Around here (east Arkansas) mussel shell was used for temper in pottery, indicating it's lower value. Even the extra large "pocketbook" mussels were probably only used in utilitarian ways. There are even ceramic vessels shaped like the pocket book mussel shell - likely an indicator for what was being served for food in them.
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I made contact with Larry Kinsella and he informed me that some of the shells are marine and some are freshwater. The really thick ones were freshwater. He suspects a species known as a Three ridge was the source. I tend to agree. Three ridge mussels have thicker margin and are fairly tough. They were excavated from a number of Woodland and Mississippian archeological sites with holes drilled in them for use as hoes. I suspect they were also used for scrapers and other tool/art craft. My ultimate goal is to replicate one of these atlatls.
Apparently I can purchase asphaltum in the hardware store. Henry's Asphalt Emulsion, comes in a blue and white can and has been reported to me as essentially the same stuff. Kinsella posted that he has used asphaltum to affix his bannerstones and the stuff is nearly impossible to disassemble once set. I recall some discussion on the PA site about bannerstones sliding. I thought that was not possible before but now I am double against that notion.
I always thought there were two primitive adhesives, pitch and hide glue. Not so. I have more to learn :D
I think Native people thought about shells the way we modern bowers think about wood. Each species has it attributes and uses. We are not connected to that knowledge today.
DK, That is an interesting observation about pocket mussel effigy pottery. I have seen effigy pots of whelks and conchs, but never freshwater mussels. Do you have any images of that?
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I do happen to have pictures of that bowl. It is Mississippian in age and comes from north east Arkansas at a site near the Mississippi River that was probably the capital city of who de Soto called the Pacaha.
In this image you can see a pocketbook mussel behind the artifact and the other shows detail (the numbers are on it because it was reconstructed from sherds).
(http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss187/benhenry007/MussleBowl2_zps1f78e296.jpg)
(http://i574.photobucket.com/albums/ss187/benhenry007/DSC_0184_zpsf639a332.jpg)
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Oh that is nice! Thanks for sharing those pix.
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Asphaltum (or bitumen) is a natural, waterproof, hot-melt glue. It is also quite brittle, especially in cold weather. (I wish I knew where some guys are getting their "super adhesive" asphaltum). So, wherever these properties were useful, that is where asphaltum was used. In my opinion, using asphaltum for securing atlatl weights doesn't seem like the best use of the material.
The shell segments obviously took a long time to make. It would be better to use a river stone tied on with sinew. And the segments glued together would take away from the flexibility of the atlatl (if that is indeed what they they were mounted to).
They look ornamental to me, especially of the shell possessed attractive colors or a translucency that looked beautiful in the sunlight.
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Patrick, I agree with you about the sensibility of atlatl mechanics. I am new to asphaltum. I am taking Larry Kinsella's word for it that this was what the natives at Indian Knoll used to cement those shells together. He examined the shell items and has spoken at length with archeologists who house the collection. So if he says they used asphaltum, then I suppose they did.
Like you I wonder why. I understand from Larry that there are natural occurring sources of asphaltum near Indian knoll. So was asphaltum as convenient to use as pine pitch? Would one grip shell better than the other? Larry also indicated asphaltum was used for binding stone banners to atlalts. So this makes me wonder why.
I intend to make a replica of these shell banners. If I can find enough martial I will bind one with asphaltum and one with pine pitch. Then I can compare and contrast in different situations. Your observations about brittleness in cold temps is interesting. I would expect that these atlatls, if functional, would be used in winter in deer hunting. Would brittle adhesive make a difference?
I think you are onto something with the look. I intend to see how attractive a shell banner could be. I almost wrote a note about how shell working was time consuming. . . Then I thought about how time consuming igneous rock banner construction is. ;). So I am not going to throw stones . . Er shells. Well you get the point.
Love the discussion!
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I understand from Larry that there are natural occurring sources of asphaltum near Indian knoll. So was asphaltum as convenient to use as pine pitch? Would one grip shell better than the other?
Unless you have access to a tar pit, natural sources for asphaltum often produce a crumbly, coal-like substance that bubbles and produces lots of gas when heating it. After a while, you end up with a goo that hardens into something that looks like, and behaves like, burned sugar. In contrast, pitch can be used straight from the tree if the pitch is fresh (but not too fresh) and is a lot more plentiful. However, niether one "grips" very well. Hide glue works much better on shell, especially if it is not exposed to water There must be some sort of superstitious value or water-proof purpose in using asphaltum over another glue.
As for speaking with archaeologists, it may be useful to think of them as jacks-of-all-trades but masters of none. They simply don't have time to do in-depth research on obscure subject matter. The reason for this is that it is not necessarily advantageous to one's career to spend a lot of time on the use of asphaltum on things that might be bannerstones, for example. It is different with us hobbyists: we can literally spend years on aphaltum use it if we wish. I've heard archaeologists refer to this knowledge as "intimate familiarity" with the subject matter among amateurs. ;D
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Patrick, it sounds like you have some background with asphaltum. Is it your opinion that the identity of that substance be questioned? I am asking, not challenging.
Side note here - written communications are notorious for conveying the wrong tone. just to clarify I ask my questions in a spirit of conversation and learning, not frustrated disagreement. I am enjoying the conversation and hope you are too. ;) 8)
Back at it, I may have the chance to see Larry Kinsella this weekend and plan to ask him things like how do you know that wasn't pine pitch? (I wouldn't know asphaltum from black licorice) and why use it if it gets brittle when cold?
While I want to see where those questions take me I know that the middle Mississippi Valley and lower Midwest had a significant hypsothermal period (a hot and dry weather pattern) during the Archaic period. That coincides with the use of bannerstones. Prairie systems and oak savannas dominated the landscape over areas of Missouri and Illinois as a consequence. Here in Missouri it was a time for prairie and dessert flora/fauna to invade. Today we have collared lizards and tarantulas in Missouri as a remnant of that hot/dry period. Our rocky glades create artificially warmer micro dessert as refuge. But I digress. I need to look more closely to the area Indian Knoll occurs to see how much influence that would have had on the Indian Knoll site. So it may not have been freezing cold as often, on average during that time period. Maybe that was a saving grace.
So it sounds like asphaltum is not a superior gripping agent. Following that line of logic, so why use it if a superior adhesive was available? Hide glue is affected by our present climate of humidity and rainfall here in SE Missouri. I wonder if the hypsothermal would mitigate those effects. That would actually argue in favor of hide glue and against the less effective adhesive/mastics.
I fully appreciate that there may be something at play here I am not considering. That is why I want to experiment with it. Hopefully I can gather enough three ridge mussels for some replica action. I am really looking forward to this.
I also appreciate your comments about archeologists. I give Larry a little extra credit. I am not sure he is an archeologist, but he does a huge amount of experimental archeology. His work with celts and bannerstones is outstanding. However, your point on this topic is well received and well taken. Intimate familiarity. I like it. :)
Please keep the thoughts and comments coming! I love it. :D
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I'm enjoying this conversation quite a bit!
Asphaltum is variable stuff. I've got four different batches from four different sources (maybe more) and all are very similar when heated but different when cooled. Some is very brittle and some not so much. But none is less brittle than straight pine rosin unless you have a large lump (larger than a prune). The larger lumps will bend slightly before breaking, especially in hot weather. In cold weather, it breaks without bending and is very hard. I think the indigenous people probably mixed the asphaltum with animal fat but I haven't tried that because I don't want to ruin the pieces that I have in case I'm wrong.
I've used asphaltum to haft a few altatl dart points and a knife and it was frustrating trying to get the asphaltum to flow without bubbling. It cools fast and the assembly must be quick. The more you use, the easier it is to apply. It also stains everything and is messy. Again, the native peoples must have mixed it with something or obtained the asphaltum in a gooey state.
When I was a kid, we took a trip to Mexico and I heard rumors of people chewing asphaltum like gum. The roofers down there were always repairing seams and cracks in the roofs with pure asphaltum. I tasted some and it was terrible. But who knows? Maybe the asphaltum was chewed before it was applied in ancient times? Maybe saliva alters the asphaltum and keeps it gooey?
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I'm just asking here because I have no direct experience, but what about when resin is mixed with other ingredients such as deer droppings (thus incorporating the broken down plant fibers) to increase the elasticity? The amalgam is surely more strong with the add-ins than pitch alone? I have no idea how much, but I know a pitch mixture with other materials was used as a binder for mounting points. Perhaps it is a different situation and I am just posing the question since it seems like adding another more flexible material to pure pitch strengthens it.
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Never had much luck with adding fiber (like droppings) to pitch to make it more flexible. It should work, as any engineering text on using fibers within concrete will tell you, for example. But I just can't tell the different when using the pitch/fiber mixture on points. I have noticed that the fibers will make the pitch a little stiffer (less runny) when working with it in a melted state.
Wrapping + pitch, on the other hand, is a very effective combination and has distinct strength advantages over either pitch or wrapping alone.
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A couple of weekends ago I visitd with Larry Kinsella. If you are not familiar with him, he has a website called megalithics. There is a lot of good information on there. He does experimental projects in archeology. He indicated you could scratch the black material on the stone bannertones and shell composite bannerstones, to smell the petroleum it was made of.
On a related topic, I have a message to a curator regarding Sizes for the shell disks. I also have asked how do we know the difference between marine and freshwater shells? I am curious how do we know what we know.
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I found a few more Indian Knoll KY shell weight pix posted by Larry Kinsella on Paleo Planet. He also had image of some of the atlatl antler handles and antler atlatl hooks associated with bannerstones. Six different sets of segmented shell weights were discovered. Five sets were directly associated with an antler hook.
I received some dimensions for some of these segments and have since cut out a pattern and marked up some shells. I will post progress as I have it.
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I pulled out some three ridge mussel shells that have been collected over time. In Missouri it is permissible to collect five mussels per day with a fishing permit, so long as the mussel is not protected.
First shot below is the mussels with a template drawn on them.
Next is the blanks cut out and the resulting debitage.
Final image is the blanks alone.
My next step over the Christmas/New Year break is to weigh each blank, and measure thickness. I cut out 15 in hopes of getting 8 good ones. I will grind and sand them into shape. Once I have them all shaped and drilled, then I will compare them to the artifact's measurements and mass. Some time after that I hope to do the same process over with a marine shell. My hope is to see how they compare to learn more about the originals.
I will keep you posted.
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This is a kewl project sir! Looking forward to seeing the final/finished product.
OneBow
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I found out today there was a seventh example of one of these segmented shell atlatl weights found at Indian Knoll. It also had 8 segments. Of these seven examples they either have 11 or 8 segments. interesting.
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Hmmm... you can use the 8-segmented weight (for hunting) beginning in August and the 11-segmented weight beginning in November? ;D ;D
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Hmmm... you can use the 8-segmented weight (for hunting) beginning in August and the 11-segmented weight beginning in November? ;D ;D
chuckling aloud. . . ;D :D ;) :)
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Ogga Booga Style.
Cutting a three sided section out with a piece of flint takes over an hour. I will do this several times to get an average. I might get better at it. ;) Sanding the shell segment into shape takes another 1.5 hours per segment. I did the segment below on a slab of course sandstone.
I have no idea how to best drill the holes ABO style. This stuff is HARD. I dare say it is harder than igneous rock. I also do NOT have flint drills to make this happen. My knapping skills are beginner at best. I will figure something out. . 8)
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I got a trip to Philmont under my belt and had some time to work on mothballed projects. Good memories with my son.
Here is progress on one of those projects. I was able to get holes cut. Not abo. I am not a flint knapper as of yet and couldn't make drill bits. Perhaps for my next set of these. ;)
Each hole is precisely 13 mm. I put them on a sanded poplar stick that is exactly the right diameter. This tested my holes and revealed my next steps. I need to work the inside of the shells to ensure they are the same curvature as the outside. This will allow the shells to snug up closer together and have less gap between them. Second I need to make them all the same shape in terms of outline. I will work on these in that order.
Lesson learned. If you want 11 of these start making 15. (I did) You break some along the way. (I did that too) Stuff happens.
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Some progress. the shells fit tighter together and are beginning to share the same shape. This is a lot more work than I expected.
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I had a thought regarding the glued together banner stones inhibiting bend. Perhaps the way they were fashioned together allowed for bending, much like vertebrae in a spinal column. Just a thought. Could it also ad power if done with sinew?
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I had a thought regarding the glued together banner stones inhibiting bend. Perhaps the way they were fashioned together allowed for bending, much like vertebrae in a spinal column. Just a thought. Could it also ad power if done with sinew?
DK thanks for the post. I like that out of the box thinking. The shaft inside is roughly 1/2 inch in diameter (13mm) and there is not a lot of bend in it. Perhaps a little. However, I would not expect much bend either. The western N. American atlatls were bendable and there are several examples to make replicas from. Eastern N. American atlatls are far less common due to decay potential, but the ones we have access to are not really the bending type. With that said I will be interested in observing how this one functions. Will a slight bit of flex impact sound? adhesion for the glue? I know I am not moving very fast on this project but I am quite interested in using this atlatl. Life gets busy. Most of you know exactly what I am talking about.
thanks for the interest.
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I am getting closer. . .
I have crafted a Kentucky coffee tree handle and am working on an antler hook. I tried my hand at pine pitch (no Beeswax) recently and found I need practice to make the results practical and nice looking. I am messy with it. I chose not to do asphaltum because I did even worse working with it. I was really messy and there were gaps that were too big. I want this to look good.
I will post more as I make progress.
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I think my issue was with temperature. I got better. The shell on the bottom was held in place with friction. The rest were glued to prevent clacking or turning. The atlatl hook was attached too.
I have yet to put some sinew and hide glue around the hook joint and do something with the handle. I may put finger loops on or something.
Not done yet . . . but getting there.
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Been meaning to check out the latest stuff you've done. Looks awesome!!
Those stick-latl's are so different from the spoon-latl's we have out west.
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Thank you Patrick. I appreciate the interest and kind words.
I did my sinew/ hide glue wraps and will post pics soon. I still haven't decided how the handle will be done. I am leaning toward cordage for a handle wrap.
Lessons learned:
Shell freshness matters. I placed my 15 shells on a 1/2" dowel (13mm) uncemented, and rubbed them over a sandstone rock. This worked well for sanding and grinding. From time to time an edge would flake off taking a layer off with it. Below is a picture with break points identified on the eight I chose to finish with. I truly think this happened because a few of my shells may have weathered for part of the year before I came along. When I first started, any shell that flaked off a layer while I was cutting out the rough blank was discarded. I thought I had only good blanks but i think a few still got by me. If ever do this again, my intent is to work with shells that show no sign of deterioration. The dark black/green pigment layer on the outside can't be flaking off even a little. Don't get me wrong I like the final product but those little details catch my attention. This has been a lot of work and I want to be proud of it. I intended to only make one mussel shell weight replica like this. This one may have been my practice run. I really want an authentic mussel shell atlatl weight.
At some point you have to commit to adhesion. While rubbing this stack of shells over the rock I had trouble sanding them on their triangle edges. Why? the shells would rotate slightly at irregular intervals making it hard to give them all the same shape. So i either had to use hide glue to keep them in place temporarily, or just use the pine pitch glue or asphaltum adhesive. The bottom line was the shell segments can't move while you are giving them the final shaping and sanding. What this meant was I had to step back from my notion of gluing in 8 finished shell segments and glue in partially done segments - then finish them in order to get the look I wanted. Not an earth shattering lesson, just something I note for future projects.
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Great info! You're a patient man. Gluing together first makes a lot of sense and you wouldn't normally think of that unless you do the hands-on work. Chalk another one up to experimental archaeology. Phooey on book knowledge...
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Below are pics of the sinew/hide glue wraps as well as my jute cordage handle wrap. The jute is a place holder until I can get some marsh milkweed cord made. It is a silky white cord and should balance out the white nacre of the mussel shells.
I tried the atlatl out this week for the first time. It threw well. I was surprised at how well that small hook worked. I was mildly concerned it wouldn't hold up. I was concerned over nothing. It was well balanced and was solid. The pine pitch held wonderfully.
I used this thrower in a game that a fellow atlatl enthusiast introduced me to. He called it "Moche toss" I won't take time on this tread to describe it. Search for Moche Peruvian atlatl and you will find web hits on the first page. It is a combination of wing shooting, atlatls and chunky. The word fun just does not do it justice.
Back to the atlatl. I want to change out the fiber wrap and I think I will call this done. I will post more when I get done.
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I had to wait until after the frost to get enough marsh milkweed stalks to make the cordage I wanted. The first wrap was jute. I wanted this to be more authentic. So I made about 10 feet of milkweed cordage to wrap the handle and make a wrist strap.
Marsh milkweed makes such a nice light colored cordage. :D
thanks for looking.
SM
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SM. You are da man! Thanks so much for recording this adventure. Fascinating!