Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: Lucasade on July 10, 2014, 04:54:06 pm
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Hello,
I'm doing some research before making what will hopefully be a warbow, and there's some questions I haven't found the answer to yet:
1. I've cut a side branch from a yew tree in a client's garden which I look after, which has yielded two pieces, mostly so that I could get it home. One is by pure chance 80" long and just under 4" diameter, the other is about 60" long and a bit thinner (further along the branch). First, am I wasting my time using a side branch? I've not taken the bark off but it looks like with one exception there are only pin knots.
2. If I'm not wasting my time, is there a logical step down in weight and draw length from a full size bow to a shorter one if I want them to have similar characteristics? I'm intending to use the short one as a practice for the full size one in all respects from making to shooting, and it's extremely likely they will be the only two bows I will ever make or own.
3. What is arrow spine? And what actual practical effect will it have if the only thing the finished bow (assuming it makes it that far) will be used for is attempted shooting in a field for my own amusement with no prior experience? Or will just buying a bunch of bobtailed poplar shafts and making arrows from them suit my needs?
4. Assuming I can get the funds together, what collection of say 12 bodkins would give me a good cross section of styles?
The object of the exercise for me is to make in a fairly traditional way and then hold in my hand something similar to what was used in the Hundred Years War. If it works it will be a bonus, and if I can learn to shoot it that would be a double bonus!
Apologies if these questions are all answered elsewhere. I've read back through about 18 months of posts on here and the Bowyer's Diary.
Thank you in advance...
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1. Side branch, trunk, whatever... wood is wood.
2. 80"at 4" diameter is enough for a Warbow... 60 " isn't, it may be a perfectly good bow but it's not a "Warbow"
3. Arrow spine is it's flexibility. With a Warbow or longbow the arrow has to flex a bit to get round the bow (there isn't a cut away arrow pass), Rule of thumb is you get spine about 10# less than the draw weight of the bow.
4. Dunno, doesn't matter yet, you don't have the bow yet. Cross that bridge when and if you get to it, you can shoot 3/8 shafts with all sorts of different cheap points to start with.
Have you made bows before?
Del
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Hard to help out with the branch questions without seeing it first, really. Side branches are ok, but bear in mind you will have tension and compression wood (the tension side will be the side facing upwards while the branch is still on the tree and makes the better bow, so if you can, try and get the bow out of that uppermost side)
60" is tiny, for a longbow. Perfect for practicing techniques but don't expect to get a longbow with a normal draw length out of it. Make sure you seal the ends and leave the yew along for a good year or so before trying to make anything with it.
Arrow spine is essentially a measurement of how much an arrow shaft bends. You can have two identical shafts but one may be denser than the other due to growing conditions and will bend less, ergo a higher spine. This is important for target archery, as it affects aim. If you want to shoot "medieval" style (i.e. at bits of armour, or more often up into the air volley-style) then theoretically buying a batch of bobtailed shafts will be fine. However - half inch bobtailed arrow shafts are stiff as heck and need a bow of around 100# and over ideally to fly properly. Otherwise they'll leave the bow like you're trying to throw a small truck. Depending what poundage your bow ends up at, you either want to be looking at half inch bobtailed shafts (bows over 100#) or 3/8" parallel shafts for lighter bows. Even 3/8" shafts don't like bows under 80# really.
As for bodkins you've got a few classics - the Type 10, a nice short 4-sided bodkin that probably saw the most use during the 100 Years War
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb363/Will_Sherman/Bows%20and%20Arrows/asdas_zps75437e3d.jpg) (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/Will_Sherman/media/Bows%20and%20Arrows/asdas_zps75437e3d.jpg.html)
The plate-cutter, huge and heavy and designed for going through armour plate and very similar to the head found at Crecy.
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb363/Will_Sherman/Bows%20and%20Arrows/IMAG0637_zps3e2f3380.jpg) (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/Will_Sherman/media/Bows%20and%20Arrows/IMAG0637_zps3e2f3380.jpg.html)
The Type 7, a needle bodkin for piercing maille
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb363/Will_Sherman/Bows%20and%20Arrows/IMAG0391_zps0c114adb.jpg) (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/Will_Sherman/media/Bows%20and%20Arrows/IMAG0391_zps0c114adb.jpg.html)
The Type 16 - some say this is the most common medieval head, but others (I'm in this camp) believe it was a normal swallowtail head that got sharpened beyond recognition over use (much like some of the Oakeshott swords) and flattened into this shape by years of earth piled on top of it.
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb363/Will_Sherman/Bows%20and%20Arrows/IMAG0396_zpsb7f2d26c.jpg) (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/Will_Sherman/media/Bows%20and%20Arrows/IMAG0396_zpsb7f2d26c.jpg.html)
The Tudor Bodkin, a short war head found at Portchester Castle dating to the 16th Century and probably the most common type used during normal warfare at the end of the 100 Years War.
(http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb363/Will_Sherman/IMAG1047_zpsbdea514e.jpg) (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/Will_Sherman/media/IMAG1047_zpsbdea514e.jpg.html)
Get yourself a selection of those and you'll have a really good spread of historical heads.
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Thank you.
I'll put a photo of the branch up when I can if that would be helpful. In my fantasy outcome the warbow will come out around 75-90#. I don't mind working at technique but being a self employed gardener I don't want to kill myself!
I'd noticed the top of the branch had much tighter grain so was intending to use that. I realise the shorter piece will not be anywhere near a warbow but figured it would be good to learn on and maybe give to my son in about ten years time. I just wondered if there is a formula for reducing draw weight and length as the bow length reduces?
The wood is currently in my garden shed, I was going to leave it two years and it's currently had about two months... I've not made bows before but do have woodwork experience and a desire to practice traditional crafts and learn some practical history.
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75-90# is a pretty good place to start I think. You won't be able to shoot war arrows properly though - you'll be looking at getting some 70# spined shafts (probably 11/32") to see what the bow is capable of.
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Get it out of your shed.....store your stave somewhere cool and dark. Sheds are the worst places to store bow wood....way too hot in summer and too cold cold/humid in winter.
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Here's the 80" stave:
(http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj535/lucasade2/2d20179c-6fc3-420d-b862-5321b252d20c_zps62e5a264.jpg)
(http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj535/lucasade2/imagejpg2_zps4f074831.jpg)
Tell me the worst - how many cups of tea will it take to get a decent bow out of it?
Also, these are the options I have for storing it:
(http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj535/lucasade2/imagejpg3_zpsfa234aef.jpg)
or:
(http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj535/lucasade2/imagejpg4_zps7f968447.jpg)
Which do you recommend? And what do I seal the ends with (I have no spare cash but do have various paint products kicking about)?
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Paint it is, then!
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Store it as indoors as you can :P
I just put my staves in the garage, some are in the roof and some are on the ground (raised up with scrap bits to let air flow/stop floor moisture). It's either that or on the back lawn, sometimes you have to do the best with what you have.
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Okay, I realise I am probably coming across as totally ignorant...
I have done wooden boat & ship building and coppice work, but the only wood I have seasoned to date is firewood, where being totally exposed outside in sun and rain speeds up the process, which is not wanted here. We don't have a garage or a loft and my wife will chop the stave up and burn it if I bring it within 10 yards of the house.
I have emulsion, fence paint, gloss or roofing tar.
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That last pic of yours is what I would call a garage, or a shed, close enough :laugh:. Just put them in there and close the door or throw a tarp over the end so the weather can't get at them.
You want them to dry as fast as possible without causing damage. So that usually means slowly. It depends. Sometimes you can rough a stave down closer to bow dimensions and dry it in a hot box or something. It varies. Just do the best you can though. It's either that or build no bows.
Paint is OK for sealing, anything that stops moisture from passing through it is fine.
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Paint the ends with any old paint...
Seasoning needs to be somewhere dry and airy, so just under cover outdoors is fine as long as it is off the ground and the air can circulate.
That first shed picture is ideal. It has a big over hang, store it under the overhang. Either screw/nail a couple of brackets to the shed wall to support the stave, or prop it up on bricks.
The worst thing you can do is to lie it on the ground and throw a tarpaulin over it... it will get wet slimy and rotten.
It doesn't need two years, but it will benefit from having the 'bad' half sawn or chopped away. If half is cut away, it will help reduce the internal stresses as the wood dries.
Spend plenty of time looking at it deciding where the bow will lie in the wood. If it doesn't look straight from any direction, then at least lay it out with tips and centre in a line.
Seeing where the bow lies is one of those things that you learn from experience.
Always spend more time looking and marking than sawing or chopping. You won't ruin a stave with chalk or pencil!
Del
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That's great - thank you. I'll get onto that tomorrow :)
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Always spend more time looking and marking than sawing or chopping. You won't ruin a stave with chalk or pencil!
Del
It's true Del! ;D
Last two times I've managed to get out to the garage it's been all looking and marking and measuring. It really does pay to take all the time you can during that stage because it's way harder to put wood back on once its chopped off ;D
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The last few times I've looked I've not seen a good place to cut - it may well be totally seasoned before I find it!
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The last few times I've looked I've not seen a good place to cut - it may well be totally seasoned before I find it!
If there is no good way then you have to look for the way that will be easiest to straighten out with heat, maybe minimising it to one bend.
It's easy to think, I'll have some or all of the bends as reflex to give a more powerful bow. That's not necessarily a good thing. Maybe try lay out with the centre section straight laterally but deflexed or reflexed and then straighten the bends in the outer limbs once they are roughed out. Its easier to bend the thinner outer limbs.
There is no one 'right' answer, it's really down to trying to make it as easy as possible later in the process. Maybe the answer is saw it into two billets and re-align them and join with a splice. Maybe make a character bow...
Del
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Without wanting to sound defeatist here, that stave doesn't shout warbow to me. There's very little heartwood and super thick sapwood and what you want is the opposite. Also, with so many bends and twists to remove with heat you'll end up having to treat the stave quite aggressively to straighten it out.
That's not to say it won't make a bow - I've no doubt you could get a fantastic longbow out of that - but a heavy warbow usually needs a pretty clean piece of wood as you're gonna be putting it under immense stress. If you had made a handful of bows already then it might be manageable to get that into a heavy bow but as a very first attempt I'd drop the warbow idea and aim for around 45-50# just to cut your teeth.
If you look around you'll spot bits of yew that are perfect for warbows, but one thing to bear in mind with bow making (and it took me an awful long time to realise this) is you have to let the wood dictate the type of bow, not force your ideal bow into a stave that just isn't suitable.
This stuff is addictive - you WILL make more I can guarantee it - so make this stave into a superb light longbow and go hunting for the perfect warbow stave and you'll find it. Hell, in your line of work you'll find it before the rest of us will ;)
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+1
Del
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I guess that would be better for my back too when I come to learn to shoot the thing...
So next question, what sort of dimensions do I cut a stave to for a lighter bow? ???
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WillS hit the nail on the head!
Making a 75#-90# yew warbow out of that piece of crooked yew, is very ambitious to say the least. Not only that, but it is also your first bow ever. Did you think that the people making the bows during the hundred year's war were inexperienced novice bowyers just pooping out those warbows? They were highly skilled and experienced craftsmen! It is just not realistic for a first bow to become a warbow. You will even struggle staying above 50 pounds; trust me. Shooting it is yet another matter. If the only bow you have is a 80# warbow, you cannot learn the techniques. You need to crawl before you learn how to walk. Learn the techniques with a 40-45# bow, gain muscles with a 60-70# bow, and only then - after a few years of training- you can safely switch to an 80-90# warbow.
I hope you're realizing that your original plan (building two bows, one warbow, getting some proper wararrows and living the past in two months time) just isn't feasible. I don't want to talk you down, but you have to be realistic. Learn how to build and shoot a normal hunting/target weight bow. Learn how to work with wood and how to tiller. Your experience with boat building will certainly help, but a bow is a completely different, dynamic, creature. The boats have only taught you how to work with the tools. Not how to read grain, how to work with knots, how to bend wood, how to tiller, how to monitor draw weight etc.
Well, ok. Here's some more specific advice.
- A bowyer cannot just build two bows. Once you start, you're hooked :D You'll find bow wood everywhere, and see new designs to try out all the time. So be aware of what you're getting yourself into. And warn the miss as well. You may have to make room in the shed for a wood rack, and may find some place in the house as well for keeping the finished bows.
- Drying wood outside or in a shed is possible, but only up to a certain point. Wood needs to be dry before you really start tillering it. Outside is generally too moist to reach an adequate equilibrium moisture content (EMC). Once the wood starts flexing for floor tillering, you need to put the wood indoors for at least a week or two. Also finished bows must not be stored in the shed.
- That 80" yew stave is not a bad piece of wood, but it will indeed not make a warbow. Did I read it correctly that it it 4" diameter? If so, you should be able to get two bows out of it. Considering it was a horizontal branch, one bow was facing the sky, the other was facing the floor. Don't use the sides of the branch to make a bow; only the upper and lower portion will make a bow.
- Start with the 60" stave for practice. If you're lucky you might make a nice kids bow out of it. But I would actually recommend you to buy a dry board of hardwood from a lumberyard so you can start working straight away. A board is much easier than a character branch of yew - by a mile.
- Make a bow first, before you worry about arrow spine. You need to know the bow's draw weight and draw length to find the correct arrow spine necessary. Only then you can order the shafts (and maybe arrowpoints too, although the specific arrow heads you're after are only period on warbows). "What is arrow spine?" is a really basic question that is easily answered through Google.
- As for dimensions: for the 60" stave, start with full length (obviously), 1¼" wide in the center 10", then tapering gradually to ½" nocks. Thickness 7/8" tapering to 5/8".
Whatever you do, keep us updated and post many pics, so we can guide you through the process ;)
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Okay. Before you read what follows, please understand that I am incredibly grateful to you all for sharing advice so freely with a total stranger who has just blundered into your lives.
I never expected to knock up a warbow and arrows and live in the past inside two months. I have far too much respect for the skill of the bowyer and fletcher for that. I started thinking about making a bow in April, and set to researching everything I could. What I found was a lot of texts that seemed to have been written by old style professionals seeking to retain the mystique of their craft, and thankfully even more written by people like you that are open with knowledge and want as many people as possible to be able to do this stuff. Unfortunately all I found on the subject of arrow spine was much learned discussion that assumed quite a lot of knowledge. Maybe I was looking in the wrong place.
I expected it to take a long time to even find a piece of yew that might work, and it just happened that within a month I had a likely looking branch in my hands, based on what I had read. I then expected to take another two years to absorb knowledge and mentally work through the whole process before picking up any tools. I have literally zero money for buying wood for staves - I am entirely dependent on what I can cut with my own hands. It would be amazing to serve a ten year apprenticeship with a master bowyer, but I am self employed and my wife is getting her own business off the ground so time and money are very tight. My plan for arrows is to ask for vouchers for materials for my birthdays.
I have been working with wood and my hands generally most of my life. I also ring and teach others to ring church bells - the heaviest I have rung weighs just under three tonnes. My mum is a woodcarver amongst many other crafts that she does all to a ridiculously high standard that I can never hope to match. I say this not to show off but to demonstrate that I have a reasonable baseline of knowledge and am maybe not as ignorant as my questions make me seem. I have seen what can be achieved if you jump in at the deep end with respect for the task but without fear.
Given all of this, I didn't think it unreasonable to be able to produce a half decent bow after practicing on another one first if I proceeded with care. As I think I said, the process and the history lesson is almost more important to me than the finished article, although I would be very upset if I just ended up with some beautiful firewood.
I reserve the right to be completely wrong, and I now realise that I will have to keep searching for a warbow stave. And I will definitely keep coming back here for advice and to tap into your collective knowledge - if you can forgive me for being somewhat blunt.
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Hi mate, I don't think anybody thought you were rushing or approaching this wrong - you've asked all the right questions (I wish I'd asked some of them before I started!) and you seem to have the perfect attitude towards this. I'm a mere novice (if that) but to me it seems you'll be fine. I had to blunder through to start with as I didn't know about these forums, so you'll no doubt get off to a better start than I did!
If I were in your shoes, I'd seal the 80" stave and put it away somewhere and try out techniques on the shorter one. Practice removing wood with a sharp hatchet, drawknife or spokeshave, scraping finer amounts with cabinet scrapers etc, and using rough rasps to round the belly. Get used to seeing a stave up on a tiller system with a pulley and spotting areas that don't move enough to end up with an even curve as you pull the string using the pulley. All of these things will be a massive benefit when you come to work with the good bits! You might completely destroy the shorter piece but you'll learn more from that than anybody could teach you by writing it down!
Oh, and if possible get yourself some hands on experience with the type of bows you're interested in. If you're anywhere near Dorset or can get there you're more than welcome to shoot some of my warbows and war arrows, or even better get yourself to a an English Warbow Society shoot and see the guys who actually know what they're doing! I had to make my first couple of longbows using just books and the internet as I didn't know anybody who made or shot them. The moment I finally saw the real thing I spotted countless obvious differences that pictures wouldnt have shown, and they changed my approach completely!!
Whatever you decide to do, keep posting on here with questions and pics and these guys will be able to help out!
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I say this not to show off but to demonstrate that I have a reasonable baseline of knowledge and am maybe not as ignorant as my questions make me seem.
Fair enough! I can only judge you, as a total stranger, based on a few paragraphs posted here in this topic ;)
I understand the "no money, no time" issue. The funny thing about making bows is that is really doesn't have to cost a lot of money. Cavemen didn't have money, yet they made great bows, right? Time is necessary, but it will always pay off in experience. Even if your first project breaks after spending many hours, you will still have gained experience that will make your next attempts better (and built faster).
If I were you, I would start with the 60" stave and then go to the 80" stave. In the meantime, be on the look out for more wood. Not only yew, but also other hardwoods. Should not be difficult with your work... You'll have a steady supply of dry wood within a year. What do you got to loose with the yew? The wood was for free, and at the moment there is no better alternative. So just wing it, and try the best you can. But be prepared for a failure, or coming in underweight.
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The short stave is straighter too...
The plan for this winter was to hand-chop lots of firewood to work on technique :)
And you're right about it all expanding - I've been in this conversation two days and two planned bows have already turned into three!
I'm afraid Dorset is a bit of a trek from Warwickshire but that's a really kind offer.
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If ever you are down in Essex you are welcome to come and have a shufti at my stuff. I have every thing from 35# Hazel bows to 70# longbows and the Chinese Repeating Crossbow to try out.
Del
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Thank you.
By the way, what's the best page to post stuff about the non-warbows I'm going to make? Presumably there's some sort of general longbow one?
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The Bows section...
Del
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That would make sense :-[
Hazel sounds interesting - I've got a client with a hazel in desperate need of coppicing. And the pictures of your repeating crossbow were very intriguing!
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I second what Darksoul says in his advice above. Where some people may just say 'wing it and you'll be alright' he tends to give the cold, hard truth of the matter in a succinct and honest way. ;)
I'm going to Cornwall on holiday this year (early August) and will be heading down the M6 past Birmingham, Worcester etc if you could meet me somewhere easy to find (for me!) I'll give you a suitable dry stave.
In the mean time get cutting wood! Hazel will make fine bows, I've made a couple that have really surprised me out of coppiced hazel. Before you cut a tree make certain that the grain isn't twisted like a barbers pole by eyeballing the bark. Cut only trees that look like telegraph poles with no knots - this will make your first bows SO much easier to make as it will allow you to concentrate on getting a good tiller and not having to figure out reflex/deflex spots etc. Split anything over say 4 inch in half and always seal the ends. It's safer now in summer to leave the bark on until the wood has lost a chunk of moisture.
Good luck.
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It's the best sort of advice to get!
I'll send you a message about meeting you - that's amazingly kind.
I'm now eyeing up all the local ash trees - and I've found a copse of hawthorn at the bottom of my garden with several 6-8" diameter clear stems in. Oh dear... :)