Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Vgo750 on August 30, 2014, 04:18:22 pm
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Well I finished tillering this bow a couple weeks ago and have shot it probably 150 times with no noticeable pops or anything...hell it slang a good arrow. I even wiped the bow down and felt for cracks developing after every shooting session. Anyways, even though I thought my tiller was really good...at least decent, after staining the bow today there is a chrysal 2/3 up on the top limb. I have been reading about silk wrapping and silk and rawhide patching splinters but will these also work for chrysals???? I'm hoping that a silk and superglue wrapping would stiffen the area up enough that the chrysal will not worsen?? Does anyone have an example of silk wrapping a chrysal? Thanks very much for any and all help?
(http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy54/91mr2_album/Shorty%20Hickory%20-%20Heat%20Treated/B34B730B-3C09-4525-8CC2-E90D56D58F0C.jpg) (http://s777.photobucket.com/user/91mr2_album/media/Shorty%20Hickory%20-%20Heat%20Treated/B34B730B-3C09-4525-8CC2-E90D56D58F0C.jpg.html)
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Ooo,thats a bad one!you could grind it down and add a belly lam or cut out a cookie shaped hole and add a patch.or build another,my choice would be the latter.
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They just cover up the problem, they don't fix it.
Still, you'll get even experienced bowyers telling you that rawhide patches and silk wrapping will somehow have the compression resistance of linear wood fibers.
One of the great mysteries of wood bow logic.
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Wall hanger! :(
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It looks quite jagged. For a chrysal,are you sure it wasn't a tension fracture that formed when you were adding reflex on a caul?
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a pic braced would help,,
or maybe half draw,, if the tiller is not changing,, then maybe some patch might work,,,, if there is a hinge there ,, then that is more problematic... and as stated,, if that happened when putting reflex,, that is different as well
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I would sinew wrap it and make the whole area stiff
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If you wrapped it with sinew, would you trust it to hold together while drawing down on a 10 pointer?
Toast. Sorry. :(
That's not a chrysal.
That's a bad crack across the belly.
Chrysals are little tiny cracks which can be localized indicating bad tiller or all along a limb indicating an inadequate design.
Jawge
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Thanks for all the replies guys. Here is a fd pic. It is hickory 63ttt 1 3/4 pyramid down to under 1/2" tips. 50@27...if its not chrysals than what would it be? I did add reflex and slight tip flip with dry heat to this bow.
(http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy54/91mr2_album/Shorty%20Hickory%20-%20Heat%20Treated/87BB9C3F-5510-4AAF-A751-DF1F226F0678.jpg) (http://s777.photobucket.com/user/91mr2_album/media/Shorty%20Hickory%20-%20Heat%20Treated/87BB9C3F-5510-4AAF-A751-DF1F226F0678.jpg.html)
Here are some more
(http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy54/91mr2_album/Shorty%20Hickory%20-%20Heat%20Treated/D86D8649-C5E5-470A-A1DC-C2D3A65F1E9A.jpg) (http://s777.photobucket.com/user/91mr2_album/media/Shorty%20Hickory%20-%20Heat%20Treated/D86D8649-C5E5-470A-A1DC-C2D3A65F1E9A.jpg.html)
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also,, a dry fire will cause that kind of crack
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That flat spot under the affected area may have been the root of the problem Or maybe the stave has some character?
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Is it raised like a small bump across the crack? If you feel a bump its a chrysel, if its smooth and no bump its not. If it is one there is a way to fix it but it takes some 'splaining to do to describe it, though it is simple.
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It looks quite jagged. For a chrysal,are you sure it wasn't a tension fracture that formed when you were adding reflex on a caul?
It's a chrysal - sure as eggs is eggs.
also,, a dry fire will cause that kind of crack
I don't think so. Would you explain how a dry fire can cause a compression fracture!?
As for how to 'fix' it then have a look on Dean Torges website - he has a great article on patching. It's the only way that will last.
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It looks quite jagged. For a chrysal,are you sure it wasn't a tension fracture that formed when you were adding reflex on a caul?
My initial thought too.....I get those when Im not patient and use dry heat to reflex. But Mike says its "eggs"...and im enclined to think he is right considdering the story behind the bow.
Cheers
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I've had my share of chrysals. More than my share. I've never seen just one.
I think that was caused by bending that was too aggressive. Been there too. :)
At any rate, I'd never trust a crack that bad.
Vgo, I'd just start another.
Jawge
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Whatever it is, compression or tension. Build another bow.
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Yea I'll just build another one...I've still got about 3 weeks till season opens anyways. Dang man that's 3 failures in a row for me! Thanks for all the replies everyone
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well a dry fire can not cause a compression fracture,, but I had a friend that dry fired his osage bow,,, and it made a crack on the belly that looked very similar,, the bow still worked,, i dry fired my sinew bow,, and it split in two,, that was a bad fracture,,, :) it may be a crysal,, but usually the tiller is off to make a crysal,, or a hinge,,, that is what is a little different about that crack,,, the bow shows no sign of being over stressed,, in that area,, that I can see,,,
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I noticed on an osage bow I was building for the TG trade that poor early/late ratios(about even) has a tendency to crack like this one while trying to add reflex to the tips(I used dry heat w/ oil). The wood also dented pretty badly where the clamps were. I've not noticed it before on thin ringed osage or osage with good ring size and normal early/late ratio. My bow had similar fractures, not chrysals.
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George,, I agree that starting a new one would probably have a higher success rate,, but for me ,, it would not hurt to try to fix that one and see what happens,, maybe start a new one as well ,, and try a repair on the bow in question,,,, if after a couple of hundred shots,, still shooting good,,, you would have an extra bow,,,,, or it could become a tomato stake as well,,,,,, but fun to find out,,, I would be willing to try a fix myself and pay the shipping just to find out,,,
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Vgo:
DO NOT get discouraged.
We have all broken bows at some point. It is the nature of the beast.
Look at the bright side, you don't have three broken bows.
You have three bows that could possibly became "Take Down Bows"
Or, take what you learned and apply it to the next one.
Good luck and don't give up.
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Bradsmith, Bowjunie, thanks for the offer and encouragement, very generous. And I agree with you both about a fix attempt and maybe even a takedown! I already started another bow about 2 hours ago lol and I will attempt the fix after this one. I have made a handful of good shooters that are all holding well, 4 of them are pyramid board bows with no heat treating or reflex so I know i can knock one of them out decent enough...worst case I just hunt this season with the hickory pyramid I hunted last year. My last three failed attempts were all trying to expand my skills with trapping, heat treating, reflexing, and tip flipping and through all 3 builds everything went really well... I thought...and then right when i thought i was done I ended up with 1 splinter, 1 explosion lol, and now this thing. I will keep plugging away for sure and I will keep trying to expand my skills as a bowyer. Yalls experience and this site is a gold mine.
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Wrap it and shoot it. I'm a guy that tries to get something out of it and I would rather know I can't fix it then always wonder if I could. If it breaks it breaks. If it works it works. You can't lose any more breaking it then throwing it in the trash. Just my take.
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Wrap it and shoot it. I'm a guy that tries to get something out of it and I would rather know I can't fix it then always wonder if I could. If it breaks it breaks. If it works it works. You can't lose any more breaking it then throwing it in the trash. Just my take.
A chrysal isn't going to just explode so wrapping won't do much. The problem is the belly not the back.
You can definately have just one chrysal. If just that spot is over strained then it's just that spot. I think the cause of this one is the stiff outer limbs.
If you try this design again keep your width constant until say 12 inches from the tips and shoot for an elliptical tiller. eg bend increasing all the way out from the handle to that last 12 inches.
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I have a corner full of failed similar bows, as do many of us here "corner of shame" Once the wood has collapsed like that its a gonner. Like putting a crease in a piece of paper then trying to smooth it out again, never happens.
Almost like techtonic plates smashing together creating mountain ranges. The only way to re-leave the stress is to remove wood above and below the failed area but its not a fix, it just takes the weight off but the damage is still there.
When the corner of shame fills up and I get sick of moving them around the shop they get chopped into 8 inch lengths and burnt into my tent stove when on holiday.
I think Dell posted a picture of how deep Chrysals go and its deep, have seen it my self. What you see on the surface is ice-berg like, the damage will go deep.
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yes that would be correct if it was a crysal,, but I still dont think it is a crysal,, in my opinion,, it was caused from too much bending to try to induce reflex,,
the tiller still looks good,, no hinge ect,,, if that area was over strained it would show,, and to my eye,, it does not,(unbraced or drawn), I could be mistaken for sure ,, as photos do not tell the whole story,,I think I could fix it,,and at least kill one deer with it :),, before being retired to the trophy wall,,, :D
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I am convinced that infact that is not a chrysle. Tiller is too good for that and many times I have had cracks open when heat treated reflex in a bow. But as I said before, if the edges are raised like a small bump it is one. If not then it isnt. Are they?
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That looks like a tension fracture to me. If it is, then it will probably hold. Just put a patch over it so you don't have to look at it.
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I can actually run my fingernail over it and not feel a thing...smooth as a babys butt. Either way i will come back and wrap and shoot this one to see if it will hold after i finish my new build:)
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I go along with Gordon on theis one. I have had tension fractures on a belly from reflexing. They don't generaly cause any problems.
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Fill it with super glue. Being that it is a tension fracture on the compression side you should be OK.
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You could try a torges patch buti've had it fail as often as work out. When that happens now I just cut the bow in into 3rds and toss it. It is important to cut it because 1 it has to fit in the trash can and 2 i'll be tempted to tinker with it and fix it which is usualy a big waste of time.
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Well if it is smooth then it is in fact NOT a chrysle. Nothing to worry about. Just shoot it.
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I honestly don't see the point of fixing a chrysal once I see chriysals on a bow it's trash to me, be much better off just starting anew bow IMO