Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: jeffp51 on September 19, 2014, 12:28:56 am
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A month or two ago I traded JoJo for an osage stave that he got from someone else on this site. I forget who, but thanks to both of you. Osage is like gold out here in Utah, I think. A single ring had already been chased by the original owner prior to sealing.
The whole thing has been sealed with what may be polyurethane, but since I have had it, it has begun to check anyway. there are a couple of small checks on the back and some bigger ones on the belly. You can see pictures below. the first is the back, the second is the belly. I have two questions:
1. Do I need to do something with these right away--chase a new ring on the back/ cut away the check on the belly? Or is it okay to leave it?
2. JoJo thinks I can maybe get two bows out of this piece of wood if I bandsaw it. I have included thickness measurements in the pics. I would love to get two bows from this one piece, but I don't want to get greedy and end up with nothing, since getting more osage could be hard to do.
FYI the stave is 64" long and has about a 30 degree prop twist to it.
Thanks for all your wisdom
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I gave joe that stave and i acquired it from fred arnold who had already single ringed it before he shipped it
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Dont cut it just start working down the belly till you can get it to bend a little and then shape it and floor tiller it then you can start to finish tillering it to the draw length and weight you want
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That's right, Tyke. Sounds like it is time some one made a bow out of it then! it has seen enough owners. At 64 inches, I think it will probably need a bendy handle to get to my 29" draw, even though I would prefer rigid. I want to play safe and not muck it up.
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And dealing with the twist jawge has a page with info on fixing twist
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Definitely do a bendy you can do a leather or cork build up if you want for the handle i believe that stave is a sister to the bow i let you draw
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And get a humidifier we live in a desert
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Tyke, can you give me the full dimensions on that bow? width, thickness of limbs at tip and fades, etc? I am also thinking if the handle bends a bit, I can flip the tips a bit for a more elegant line. -- I do have a swamp cooler that has been cranked all summer. my basement feels fairly humid. I need to look into a moisture meter.
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Make one bow from it,and lay it out so no checks run off the edge...a rawhide backing wrapping around the corners might not be a bad idea to,and might be needed IMHO ..especially if ya can't lay it out without a check running off...if so then you'll have to wrap that area as well before any serious bending occurs....good luck
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Super glue those checks now and keep adding it as needed as you reduce the wood.
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The checking issue may be from going from being dry in my garage to more humid in the house with the swamp cooler. Just my thoughts. I am not a expert by any means. Once you get that one made I am sure you will be in love. Another thought for later Jeff, If you want we can get together and make a trade and get more osage. I find it is simpler to pool resources and share the shipping costs than to do it alone.
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And that stave came from Fred Arnold.
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Checks(drying crack) happens when a wet stave dries too fast not a dry stave being hydrated.
I'm working on a bow from a stave that Josh(Gun Doc) gave me at the Classic last spring. He cut the tree 15 years ago on an island near where he lives in Kansas. It laid on the ground for 15 years before he recovered it. It has some impressive checks in it. I'll post a few pics later. I filled the checks(back and belly) with super glue. As I reduce the stave the check open up so I filled them again, and again, and again. I've almost used a bottle of super glue on this stave but I the end it will be worth it.
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I am still debating chasing a new ring on back. Right now the back isn't super smooth, and I am not positive it hasn't been violated, or that me sanding it won't result in a violation. there is a relatively fat ring (still a little thin, though) about two rings down, and I could probably use the practice. What do you all think? Again, my main goal is not to muck it up.
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Will you post pics of the rings on each end?
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Here is the osage stave Josh gave me with the checks in it...
Back
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/IslandGirlchecks001_zpsd1277eb7.jpg) (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/PatBNC/media/IslandGirlchecks001_zpsd1277eb7.jpg.html)
Belly
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/IslandGirlchecks004_zps6ac65624.jpg) (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/PatBNC/media/IslandGirlchecks004_zps6ac65624.jpg.html)
Back
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/IslandGirlchecks005_zps010b813e.jpg) (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/PatBNC/media/IslandGirlchecks005_zps010b813e.jpg.html)
Belly
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/IslandGirlchecks006_zpsf35d2e6f.jpg) (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/PatBNC/media/IslandGirlchecks006_zpsf35d2e6f.jpg.html)
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i usually go down a ring or two if I have enough wood,, if I am not happy with the back,, usually I am glad I did,,, just a little more work,, but an osage bow is worth the effort,,aslo as Blackhawk suggested,, rawhide backing is functional and beautiful when done well,, I think there is a bow in there :)
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Because of the dark color of some of your cracks I suspect they are wind shakes, the ones on the belly most definitely are. Super glue and proceed.
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Eric, the pics I posted are old checks. The staves that Josh cut laid on the ground for 15 years before he retrieved them. He said he actually forgot he has cut and split them until he came back and found them. They were on an island that became inaccessible do to a change in the course of the river.
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Here are some end grain pics. I am looking at the third ring down. On one side, it is about 1/8" thick, and a little over 1/16" on the other
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If you don't trust the back ring now, go down one ring and see how it looks. Be careful as you expose the next ring. Leave an island of wood around any knots or pins until the back has been chased then go back and slowly and carefully remove the island working from the center out around the knot.
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thank you for all the advice. I will probably have more questions as I progress. Tyke if you have the dimensions for your bow, that will help me with layout.
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Spent the whole day chasing a ring. I may be slow, but at least my work is poor ;)
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that a nice piece of wood ,, nice rings,, :)
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Three days of scraping, and I finally have a clean back. My hunch was right, there were actually parts of three different rings exposed on the back of the stave, but now it is smooth as a baby's backside and ready for layout. The narrowest part is about 1 3/8 inch--which I hope is wide enough, as that narrow spot is about 6 inches above the center point. The scraper that Tyke made for me worked fantastic! If you are ever in the mood for a trade, try and get one from him. I have been using a paint scraper- which is fine for big, wide scrapes off of the belly, but Tyke's tool let me get into all sorts of nooks and crannies, and allowed me to use more finesse. Thanks again!
One question. I think I will eventually seal the whole bow with tung oil. Should I go ahead and use that on the back now, or use something else? If I use polyurethane or some other sealant, are there issues with removing the sealant before a final finishing? what does everyone else usually do? I just want to keep it from cracking/ checking again and have it look nice in the end.
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Shellac is the best sealer, very easy to remove with a light scraping.
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One of the things I like about this site, is how patient everyone seems to be with new people and their repetitive questions. So here is mine:
I am ready to remove the prop twist in this stave, but I am unsure about how and where to apply the heat. I have read Jawge's site on how to do this applying leverage to the end of the stave, but do I heat the whole limb, or just the belly, or work my way down the limb? How long does it take to cool? Some say apply oil or crisco. Which is better? Do apply to only back? Only the belly? Both? How much? How hot does it need to be?
My climate is really dry here in Utah, am I better to just steam it? If I do, how?
The process looks easy until I think too much about it, and I often think too much. I have 30-45 degrees total twist. Please advise.
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Depends for me on how localized the twist is. If I can heat just one section of say a foot long I will. Some will need a more generalized heating along the limb to bring it straight. I don't worry too much with prop twist. If it is slight, I just leave it, but that is a judgment call. I did for a long time use oil, I now do it dry so that I don't have the clean up. Oil is safer I think, but not needed if you go slow and easy.
Once it is cool to the touch it's good. Wait a while before bending it too far just to play it safe.
Belly only for me, just hot enough to bend and stay bent. If it is not hot enough it wont take.
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if it is not hot enough it wont bend :)
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Progress being made. what are the thoughts/ advice on the tiller?
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Jeff - Before bending, always round the corners (back & belly) of the stave. Bob
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Jeff it looks like it's only bending in the middle. Try and get the outers bending more, don't touch the handle for now.
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Don't mess with the middle 1/3 like Matt said. The left limb is stiffer so work on it first, exercise it and check again.
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How about now? To me, I think the right side is still stronger, but the curve looks better. The outer limbs need a little more bend, but maybe also the middle third on the right. Getting close to my target draw and weight of 55#. If I have to go less for a good tiller, I will, but I hope I won't have to. I also want to recurve/flip the tips some too.
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The tiller looks fairly decent to me, the right limb could us a few scrapes. But if you are planning on flipping the tips I would do it now. Bending the tips back will put more stress on the limbs. It could and probably will change the tiller also. It may also increase the draw weight as well. This may be debatable but has been my experience yet a little limited compared to some on here. JMHO Patrick
How close to your draw length and weight are you?
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I pulled it to around 45-50 pounds at 26 inches, and I would like 50-55# at my draw of 29". I would like to be able to tell you more exactly, but I have been trying not to hold it flexed for too long How much of the tip is best to bend? I was thinking the final 6-8 inches with a pretty mild curve--nothing super sharp, and not static, I think. the nocks are 62 inches apart, and the handle is bending. I have left the tips just a little wide at the moment because I have heard that is safer for bending--but once it is close to the final shape, I will narrow them a bit and add overlays.
I plan to do it with steam. Where I live is pretty dry, and from what others in this area seem to be experiencing, I think it would be best. All opinions are welcome, and have been very helpful so far. Really my goal is to get a durable, nice looking bow out of the process. Any draw weight from 45-55 would be great, I think, and unless something goes horribly wrong at this point, should be obtainable.
Thanks
Jeff
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I would carefully get the RH middle third or so working more, then start narrowing the tips until they just slightly work, assuming you still are within your target weight range. Personally I wouldn't mess with bending the tips unless the weight comes in low. Osage shouldn't need overlays, but they do look cool if you want to add them. I would vote for keeping everything simple and getting a bit fancier on the next one, since you are so close to a good bow at this point. Good luck!
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Jeff I just re-read your post. Me personally I would use a heat gun with oil brushed on the section you are trying to bend. I have used steam once and really didn't like what it done to the wood and since you are getting close to your finished tiller I personally think that the heat gun would be safer. Hold the heat about 6in from the wood where you add the oil to (I use cooking oil) and keep it moving when it's too hot to touch for more than a second then its ready to slowly clamp into position. Let it cool for about an hour or until it's completely cool to the touch. Osage reacts well to heat bending this way even in a dryer climate. Check out boarrior bows on YouTube and Clay Hayes. You will be able to see a good demonstration of both types of bending including some straightening and tiller advice as well. After you get your tips bent let is rest over night just to be safe. And also check your string alignment to make sure your bend is straight and your tips are still in alignment. When you are ready to check your tiller again be sure to exercise the limbs several times because your new tip angle will change where the stress is on the working portions of each limb. It's also important to exercise your stave every time after a scraping session before drawing it to your previous lengths.
After your done bending, don't expect to be able to draw it to the 26in mark that you are currently at.
I know that's a lot of info but you are in a critical part of the tillering process and those are things where I have screwed up on myself before. Just take it slow and you will get it right for you. I think you should be able to get your draw weight your aiming for as long as you take your time and don't rush it. This is just my thought and it is open for debate. Can't wait to see your results! Post some pics after you get the tips bent and all of us can help on the tiller again. Good luck, Patrick.
One thing I don't think was mentioned is to make sure your edges are rounded nicely as well.
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Work a little towards the outer limb on both.
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Thanks for the pointers one and all. This is almost turning into a newbie build along. I decided to take Lebhuntfish's advice and use dry heat--I figured if it worked in Vegas for boarrior bows (I had already watched that video multiple times, thank you) then it ought to work in Utah too. one limb is on the form right now cooling off.
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Cool, can't wait to see the results! Patrick
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the bending went well, I think. the only concern is a couple of hairline cracks appeared on the back. they are running with the grain, and don't look to be running off at all. I have superglued them already, and I probably will a few more times before I try to tiller again. All I will likely do with it for a day or two is leave it in a bathroom during shower time and see if it needs to rehidrate. I probably need to try one more time to remove some twist, which is more obvious now with the bent tips. A couple of pics--
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Fill em with super glue, the tips aren't bending are they?
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+1
Looks good, I love the profile!
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Also I wouldn't leave it in the bathroom, it will take on more moisture than ud like. Just leave it alone for a day or two and it will be at equilibrium with the RH
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That is a nice profile!
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Fill em with super glue, the tips aren't bending are they?
The tips should be working, in theory. We will see once I get the string back on. The first thing I did when it came off the form is fill the cracks with glue. Now with eyes closed, you can't feel them and a long fingernail doesn't catch in them, so I hope I am good.
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Okay, thanks for the patience with me, I am still trying to "see" tillering. This is about 40# at 22 inches with a low brace. to me it looks like the outer mid limbs just before the recurve tips are still stiff, although they seem like they are starting to get thin. Please tell me if I am right. I knew bending the tips would add weight, but I was a little surprised how much. I lengthened my tillering string and have been exercising the limbs with short pulls. Trying to be careful.
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I think I would go to full brace if it was me. I just asked for tillering advice yesterday myself. But it looks purddy to me. I think in theory you want to have your tips move a bit at full draw at the end of your draw. If that makes sense. JMO, Patrick
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It does, and I think they are moving a bit now. I saw your bow Patrick, and it is considerably trickier than this one. I appreciate your input.
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Thanks Jeff it has been a little bit of a pain. Yours is coming along nicely though! Patrick
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seems a little bendy through the middle,, maybe make the mid to outer mid limbs work a bit more
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Am I seeing correctly, are those nocks grooved across the back? Not a good idea. Now you'll have to put overlays on them and you can groove across the overlays but not the back surface. Other than that, looking good.....
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You see right. I am planning on overlays and would have had to sand a flat spot for them anyway. How else would you do the temporary nocks so that the string holds? the last 2 inches isn't bending, so I think I should be okay. Not quite sure I understand. . .
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Very nice! :) Jawge
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Looking nice jeff
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Temp nocks for me I just file into the side. I out overlays on later
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Jeff, I just tie my string on the end of my limbs until I get the tiller right. It looks really good. A very impressive first bow build. If all you can do from here is improve, you have a bright future!
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Final tiller check. I am at 50# at 28". If you see anything, let me know. Otherwise I will shoot it some, then add tips and a grip and finish it.
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It looks pretty good to my eyes! How does it shoot? Looks like your tips come out really nice! I would have to say good job and congrats on your new bow! 8) Patrick
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I think I may have one chance to fix the mistake I have made: When I added the tip overlays, I was so concerned about creating a flat surface for a clean glue line that I did not notice that I created that surface at an angle--until after the glue had set and the clamps were off. The first picture shows the angle belly side down. the thin "weak" side is on the right. the second shows the bow braced and turned over so that the "weak" side is now on the left. The third shows how the string is now too far to the wrong side of the bow. This much twist did not exist before I put on the overlays.
I THINK that if I file down the nock on the strong side, both on the back and the side,so that it is more parallel with the back in general--and weakening the strong (fat) side, it may bring the string back in line and reduce the twist. But the recurve is messing with my sense of reality. I think I have just one chance to get it right, and if I get it wrong I will seriously ruin what was looking to be a good bow.
I have already read this http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,27206.0.html (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,27206.0.html)
and this http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,48856.0.html (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,48856.0.html)
Help me not screw up
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How bad is it twisting Jeff? It looks like a good job no matter what. I have made some good mistakes (gluing on tip overlays sideways). Worst case scenario is that you pike it and start the overlays over. I don't know if reducing the overlay will help the bow to not twist, as the twist is coming from the limb itself. You could also try to cut the overlays off, or steam or heat them off (depending on the type of glue used). Lots of ways to fix this. I am more than likely the king of going to fast (when I do get to working).
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from the pic,, looks like your could gently heat the tip and twist it to align better with the string,,also looks like the string is to the other side of the bow,, and might shoot better off that side,,turn the bow upside down and shoot and see how she does...you will have to redo the handle,,if you like it better that way,, also I have had bows with that much twist, that seemed to get a little better after shooting,, I think the tip just followed the string after shooting,, I had a bow like that but never was able to fix the twist,, and killed many deer with it,, the string would just stay on,, :)
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Joe and Brad, these are good points. It is good to know there are some options still open. Flipping it end to end at any rate is a good idea, and will bring the string closer to where I want it. The rest is, I hope aesthetic. I may try some gentle heating too. -- I will start with the least invasive stuff first. This bow is getting close.