Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Gaust on October 16, 2014, 01:08:26 pm
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Starting on another one, calling it Hackberry III. I have a little straightening to do, but I'll reduce it some first. Planning a shorter bow, perhaps 64" ntn, 45# @ 28", and I may try to add some static reflex to the tips. Though I have a pretty good growth ring on the back, would I need a backing for this one I wonder?
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George Id keep it no less than 2" wide if you want to pull 28" with a 64" ntn hackberry. No backing required if its clean now.
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Thanks, Chris.
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I agree with Chris. 2 inches wide seems for me to be the magic number on Hackberry at that length and poundage. I also prefer to keep my width out past midlimb. A slight taper only. You might be able to narrow the width some as you get close to final tiller if you want. 1 7/8 - 1 13/16.
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Is your stave bent due to warpage or from a crooked growing tree? Do you plan to use dry heat or steam to straighten? The only warped piece of hackberry I have straightened has moved back some towards its warped shape after I tillered and shot it in. Almost enough to have the string off the side of the handle. Maybe the more experienced hackberry guys can advise if you might want to go a little past straight to begin with? Keep us updated on your progress I have several pieces of hackberry to work and am interested to see how this one goes.
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BarredOwl, I had the stave curing in the garage after debarking and sealing the back and ends for ten months. It was fairly straight when I cut it and warped as it dried. I'll probably try dry heat to straighten it out, and steam it for the statics. I plan to do the straightening carefully with the heat gun, yes just a little past straight as I slowly clamp it down, probably do one limb at a time. But first I will get it close dimension-wise, leaving the ends wide till I steam bend those. I plan to temper the belly after some tillering and do final straightening at that time as well. I will keep updating my progress, but be patient. I'm kinda slow with the hatchet.
George
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Dry heat will work fine for flipping George, steam is fine for static tips.
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On static recurves how much thickness tapering is recommended? Chris, on your build-along, I know you tapered the width, but what about thickness? If not, where does thickness tapering of the limbs end? At the start of the static bend?
George
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Progressing slowly, but carefully. The stave is getting closer to width and thickness but first I've got to straighten it. I'm using a combination of dry and steam heat. Presently I've got it clamped down after heating the limbs to reduce the lateral bend along the length. I steamed out the severe bend at one limb, but now I'm just coaxing it along with my heat gun. There's a slight twist on one limb that I'll have to do something about before I continue to rasp it down to thickness. The tips are still wide so I can add the statics later. But I thought I'd show where I'm at right now.
George
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Another progress pic. The stave is finally straight. After a number of heating and clamping sessions, using both steam and dry heat, the tips are finally in line with the center of the handle. Next step, after I let it rest a while, will be to put it on my new caul and add some reflex to the entire stave, and then afterwards steam bend the tips. It's now in floor tiller shape. It'll be interesting to see if it does stay straight through the tillering process and then after it gets shot in. All that heat bending I did to it has got to have some effect on this piece of wood. I've read that it does somewhat weaken the fibers. This is all new territory to me.
George
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Get at least to full brace before steaming the statics in, I like to get close to 20",fewer surprises that way
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I think it may weaken the fibers some, but not enough to compromise the bow in my experience. You just end up leaving a wee bit more wood on the thickness to compensate. Your trick will be in getting all the bends to hold as you reheat it. It's come a long way.
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On the belly side, the ring lines look normal on one limb. On the other limb, the rings lines run off to the side a bit. Normally those ring lines guide me in my thickness tapering. Should I be concerned about the limb where the ring lines run off? I can taper it okay, just wondering about the resulting compression strength of that limb. Or does it matter?
George
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Take set of caliper and check the thickness. Getting that right will be important, not how it may look, although I will bet that the taper is not even sided to side. Could be, but check it.
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Will do, SLIMBOB. Thanks, Bubby.
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Here it is, a few days later and after being tillered to brace. Giving the stave a modest belly toasting to get a little reflex going. It's still over the draw weight by about ten lbs. Next, I'll steam the tips and bend in a little recurve. Trying for statics, but we'll see how that goes. Any comments at this point are sure welcomed.
George
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No suggestions, only compliments, as I've yet to play with hackberry for myself. I am really enjoying watching your progress on this build. I WISH I could have a shop as neat and tidy as yours appears to be by-the-by...
OneBow
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Thanks, Onebow. I'm excited to see what happens next myself. I keep looking back to TBB and past posts for any suggestions. This stave has been more work than the first two that's for sure. And, btw, I usually clean up the place before I take a pic, so it's not all what it appears at times.
George
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Did you check Pearl's Hackberry static he did in the how to 's it's sinewed but you can check out how he did the statics
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Bubby, I sure did. Chris's how-to has been my main source of info and inspiration. This one is a little longer, and will not have sinew on it. Hope I left enough wood on the ends for statics, but we'll see.
George
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They look plenty thick to me, have you got your static jig all built
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Bubby, yeah here it is. Not as sharp a curve as Chris's, but I guess it will have to do.
George
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Lookin good. I'm curious to see if over time it creeps a little back towards the shape it started before you started heating and straightening it. Can't wait to see it start bending.
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Looking good. Waiting to see it bent over.
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George, after you steam them in after a few days you can put it back in the form and set the bend with dry heat, I've only had to do this once but it did the job
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BarredOwl, I hear you. Makes me wonder if all this straightening and bending is going to hold up in the long run. It's like forcing someone to do something instead of letting them decide to do it themselves. Which would be better and/or more permanent? Well, I confess that I stroke this wood after each heating, telling it that it's okay and that it's all for the best. It could have ended up being mulch or firewood, but instead its going to be a bow. That is, it will be a bow if I don't screw it up.
George
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That's looking like a great little form. I tend to like the softer curves.
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Bubby, I'll try that.
IdahoMatt, I prefer the softer curves, too. Since this is 64" ntn, I figure I've got enough bending limb for a longer curve, even with this 5" grip. Hopefully, it will work out okay.
George
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Id suggest making that bend with dry heat and temper it right to the tip while your at it. It wont budge if you do.
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Thanks, Chris. I'll try it that way.
George
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This bending is scary stuff. Clamped it down on my caul near mid-limb first to make sure it was straight, then at the beginning of the bend. I continually dabbed the area I was bending with water as I used my heat gun and slowly tightened up each clamp as I went. Kept thinking about Ed Scott as I was doing it. Don't know why his video kept popping up in my head. It took about fifteen minutes to get it to final bend completely. Whew, that's one tip. My first bend.
George
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Easy as that George, and more stable than steam in my opinion.
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Yeah, the was easier than I thought, Chris. It does help to have a longer bending caul to keep things aligned.
George
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Well, I pulled it off the caul after doing the other end and some cracks appeared under the clamps in two spots on that limb. Is that fatal? Or can I sand those down? I have plenty of thickness there.
George
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Work them away George. Its very, very common for that to happen. Folks seem to think a thin metal band can keep the wood from stretching? Never caught unto that. A strap MIGHT keep a steamed sliver from popping, but it certainly cant help a tension tear.
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Thanks, Chris. We'll try to work it out. Looked at it again in the sunlight and found that one crack is deeper than the other, at least the depth of one growth ring. I'll have some thickness left but it may not be static after I get through with it.
George
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Fill them with glue and leave them if you are concerned. Ive done that to. Never had an issue.
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I've worked them out and my limbs at the curbs will be about 3/8" thick right before the tips. I left the ends a little thick because I'll work an overlay on them before I narrow them down. I was going to narrow the outer third of limbs anyway to see what I can get away with. I know now that they will probably lose a little bend as I do final tillering and shoot it out, but that's okay. I'm learning on this one.
George
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So much progress! Such a neat workshop! Jawge
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Here's another progress pic. Haven't looked at the tiller yet. Trying to decide whether to do overlays first. One curved a little more than the other as can you see. That may end up as my lower limb.
George
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Looking good so far. :)
Pappy
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Looking good. For what its worth, here is how I approach it from this point. Ill floor tiller it until its perfect and about 15-20# heavy. Then add the tip overlays and fully shape them. Brace the bow just above the handle and tiller it out to 16-18". Increase the brace to about 4" and check the tiller out to 16-18" again, if all is well keep reducing and drawing it back farther until its perfect at 2-3" short of my intended draw length. One I get to that point I full brace it at 5.5-6" and check the tiller one more time out to 20" or so. If all is well I pull it back to my full draw several times and shoot it several more times. Then check it again. I get very little set doing it this way and the limbs seem to have more "life" to them.
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Thanks, Pappy. Chris, a good plan follow. I've floor tillered it and it's still a little heavy. Overlays next.
George
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Re-checked the alignment and found a slight twist on the bottom limb. The twist was mid-limb so it wasn't too hard to clamp it down using some shims and heat it up again. This poor piece of wood has taken a lot abuse, that's for sure. The alignment looks a lot better now, but we'll see how long it lasts. Decided to do padauk overlays (because I like the reddish contrast with the hackberry) first before I start the tillering process again. I've left plenty of overlay wood for final reduction, rounding of the tips, and cutting the nocks. Jury is still out on padauk as overlay material, in my opinion.
George
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Nocks done.
G.
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Nice looking nocks :)
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I like padauk overlays on locust, good contrast and it hasn't failed me yet.
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I only use Padauk in an overlay as a middle Lam or stripe these days. I've had issues with it being too brittle and inclined to crush vs. harder woods. ...but the pieces I've used have been random off cuts I collected from the floor of my Luthier friend's shop! ...they may not have been first rate bits of the wood.
OneBow
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Grain is very important on most overlay woods, regardless of their hardness.
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Chris,
Are you saying that applying the overlay with the end grain perpendicular to the bow back for soft wood overlay material? I have never paid much attention to it with hard wood overlay material. What is the best orientation of the grain for overlays?
DBar
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Grain is very important on most overlay woods, regardless of their hardness.
X2.....looking great BTW. ;)
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OneBow, like you, my main complaint with paduak is that it can sometimes be brittle. I have to be careful using a file on it, especially cross grain (my shinto's fine side does better). It's hard enough to saw, but it sure doesn't like fine edges. Thought about coating it with super glue to harden the surface after fine sanding it. I've got more of it but I'll be looking at some other hardwoods.
DBar, grain should be perpendicular or somewhat. I haven't been paying that much attention to it and I haven't had any problems yet either.
Thanks, soy, dueb.
G.
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Still on the long tillering string. Using only my scraper now and I think I got all the flat spots out at this point. Still a little on the heavy side but not by much. My recurves are reducing a bit, more one side than the other. I think the toasting on that one is holding up better. That one will be on bottom limb. Short string is next.
G.
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The excitement builds.....Looks a tiny bit stiff just out of the right fade.....time for a short string. Looking good...
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Randman, thanks, but this project is about to slow down right now. Got daughters, husbands, granddaughter, and dog coming in for Thanksgiving holidays starting tomorrow. Don't know when I'll get back to tillering this stave, 'cause this next week will be busy. I've made it this far with this piece of wood, don't want to screw it up by not giving it my undivided attention, if you know what I mean.
George
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I've had it on the short string for a while now, about a 3" brace. Been scraping it down, checking the weight and evenness of the limbs, and exercising it. Here it is at 20". How's it look so far? Any comments welcomed.
George
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Back up the right limb from the curve looks a little stiff.
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PatB, yeah, I see that. Thanks.
G.
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Scraped it some more at that stiff area and it looks better now. Going to shorten the string a couple of inches so I can check where I am on the draw weight. It's developed a slight deflex so I'm watching that. Scraping has taken a lot of the initial toasting color off. It's now at 1 1/2" wide off the fades to about mid-limb.
I don't want to reduce the width anymore. Kinda like where it's at. Any adjustments to weight will have to come off the belly.
G.
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Were it me, and I had scraped off the all the temper color, I would fix the deflex as I retempered.
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SLIMBOB, I thought about doing that. I did it to my last bow and it worked out pretty well. But this stave has been heated so much, almost afraid to toast it again. Alignment is holding up okay, so I'm encouraged.
G.
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I truly don't know when too much is too much (too often really). Tempering is something I started doing only 5 years ago or so. But I have some that I tempered repeatedly without any ill effects. They all seemed to benefit from it. I did have one Osage bow that split clean thru from repeated attempts, but I just let it get too hot for too long.
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The deflex is not too much right now. Like I said I'll be watching it closely. I'm encouraged by Tim Baker's example of a reflex-deflex bow on page 173 of TBB Vol.2. Says it's a dead ringer for a four thousand year old Italian bow. So, I'm not worried about it.
G.
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Got it to 5 1/2" brace. Pulled it to 22". About 28 lbs. at that point. Going to let it rest at brace for a while before I go further. It's becoming a bow now.
G.
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It's still just a stave, it's not a bow until you loose that first arrow ;)
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So true, Falcon. I'm getting ahead of myself. I'm just thrilled to reach this point with this stave. With this rain we're having, and with company coming in, I probably will wait a while longer to get to reach point where I can shoot it.
G.
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The left limb looks strong to me......take some scrapes on the left limb and it might even up some.................IMHO
DBar
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Thanks, Dbar. It might appear that way because of the weaker recurve, but I'll check it.
G.
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I should have known it would happen. Tried another toasting of the belly to reduce the deflex that was appearing plus back some draw weight, but I forgot to clamp laterally and the stave tried to return to its old self. Frustrating. But I'm learning. This one will end up a bow, but right now I'm not sure what kind.
G.