Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Primitive Skills => Topic started by: Zuma on October 22, 2014, 02:38:00 pm
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After presenting my thread on Abo Drilling and having so many interesting replies I have decided to try a continued discussion concerning bannerstones.
Of course I am biased towards drilling since I have satisfied myself and many others that have tried my tool kit that it is certainly a reasonable possibility.
There is one remaining catch to the drilling theory imo. Why did stone drilling stop in the Woodland Era?
Or did it?
I would sure like as much input as possible. Pro or Con is what it's all about.
I have lots of ammo for drilling and anti atatl weight use. But it is mostly my opinion backed up by scads of research. Not much of which points to bannerstones being used as drilling aids.
Also I have not as yet found info where stone drill bits are found with banners??
Nonetheless here are some of my thoughts. I hope they compel others to research anything that they are interested in.
“Running away from any problem only increases the distance from the solution. The easiest way to escape from the problem is to solve it.”
1---Drilled holes fit shafts like rivercane not ancient atatls.
2--- Drills made from broken spear or arrow points were most likely hafted on these type shafts.
These shafts could be used to drill stone without stone drill tips. Just using grit.
3--- Larger holes are usually drilled in tubular type bannerstones-- Perhaps for fire drills where larger shaft diameter is helpful .
4--- Winged and shield type banners perform very aerodynamically when spun on a shaft.
Thick and rectangular shapes are actually counter productive. (experiment)
5--- A banner adds weight to the drill or fire starter shaft. A definite plus.
6--- On a bow drill or fire starter downward pressure on the shaft causes the string to slip.
The weight of the well fashioned stone does not.
7--The shield or winged banner works well and enhances drilling on a hand shaft or a bow drill shaft. Hand shaft has to be way longer than bow shaft in order to accomplish adequate spinning.
8---Who is better to create and use a banner than the drill master.
The bannerstones would facilitate all types of drilling not just stone.
Here is a way interesting pfd file enjoy and thanks for looking.
I am sure you will have to cut and paste it. Unless some nice member
can get it to click in.
A Preliminary Report on the So-Called" Bannerstones"
www.jstor.org/stable/660669
of stone somewhat resembling the drilled stone axes of the Old. World. Here ... Many fanciful names such as bannerstones, ceremonial axes, maces, butterfly ...
Zuma
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Thanks for sharing the link. I've read several pages...finish it tomorrow!
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Glad you took a look Parnell. I have collected all around the area
of the quarry but not directly close. Maybe 50 miles.
Finding that pfd was the first I knew about it and the entire
production line of banners.
There is a claim that there are no banners found west of the Big Muddy.
I wonder if it is because there is no soft stone or what?
Many mysteries.
Zuma
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Thanks for sharing this with us !
good read!
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My pleasure Buck.
I have found more links. Here is another.
The Archaic Bannerstone by David L. L
www.thearchaicbannerstone.com/About-The-Book.html
(http://The Archaic Bannerstone by David L. L
www.thearchaicbannerstone.com/About-The-Book.html)
I also include some photos of my experimentation.
In brief --- Originally I made a drill bit from some Edwards chert. I tried it by hand on a 30"shaft. It drilled ok.but made my hands sore. I could put some weight on the work this way by starting the palm action high and swiveling down the shaft.
I always thought a winged or shield bannerstone would help the process.
I made one and put it on the shaft. The drilling went way better.
Next I shortened the shaft and made a bow. The rig in the photos below. I used a natural cap stone.(fossil from CA beach. I was drilling with it very fast and got careless and broke the bit. It still drilled a little. I was able to drill from both sides.
I was not accurate in my hasty alignment. lol
I thought it was time to try some cane as my bit was exhausted. (mostly from my carelessness and instable platform.
I was able to drill a bit with the cane and some chert grit. But it didn't last long as the string quickly frayed and the cane was not true and caused problems.
I will rethink cane and pursue it in the future.
I am excited with my new experiment. Photos below.
New drill bit (gnarly English flint)
New length of shoe string (not abo)
Quick run down---
The soapstone is 1.8 mm thick(11/16")
I stopped drilling from one side-- the hole (start side) tad less than 9 mm (7/16 ")
I finished the hole by hand by twisting the shaft and soapstone. ( less chance of breaking the drill as I could feel the slightest catch).
Bow drilling time an exciting 6 min's.
Hand drill 1 min.
No damage to the equipment except a little wear on the drill tip (expected as the drill tip was very thin).
Questions and input anxiously wanted. lol
Zuma
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More photos of experiment.
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last photos .
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Looks like your getting there !
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I can't seem to stop thinking about this but I really don't know anything about them. But anyway if the stone was to act as a flywheel a disc shape would be better although it would be harder to stop and start at the beginning and end of each stroke. Because of the thinness of the disc it would also be more difficult to get a lasting joint between the stone and the spindle. A spherical shape would concentrate the weight and would reduce the flywheel effect but would allow for a better joint with the spindle. The shield shape is weird. It reminds me of the governor from a clockwork motor. The fan effect would slow the thing although very slightly I think. It just bothers me that they would go to all that work (making the shield shape and drilling the long hole) when a sphere or a disc would be so much easier to make. I mean, if you want to drill a bunch of holes or start a fire would you care that much what the tool looked like. Maybe they had way more time on their hands than I think. Just a few thoughts, maybe not worth much.
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If you move the banner close to the drill bit, I wonder if it would blow the drilling dust away?
Anyway, a wooden banner would do the same thing, but maybe the higher weight of the stone makes the whole drill more stable?
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If you move the banner close to the drill bit, I wonder if it would blow the drilling dust away?
That's funny ;D ;D
Anyway, a wooden banner would do the same thing, but maybe the higher weight of the stone makes the whole drill more stable?
Maybe they did use wood and none survived >:D
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Great questions and ideas.
DC I dream about these things and don't really want to. lol
What really drives me is the hole diameters. It just don't make sense for an atatl.
No matter I wish you could try my rig. I don't exactly know why but the shape
is all important and it really works well. I'll post a photo of a blocky banner that was worse than having nothing at all on the shaft.
I couldn't imagine a better drill rig and if I had to make a living drilling holes in prehistoric stone, making a banner like mine would not be a problem.
The ease and speed of the drilling would be totally worth the effort.
BTW Mine has semetrical wings. In one of the links they said usually the wings are slightly off set. A little like a propeller. Hummm.
Using the rig under shop conditions would better insure it's longevity compared
to running through the woods and streams chasing game.
Thanks for the input. Please keep thinking about it.
Jack, the dust idea is a good one. For some reason in the beginning I was blowing the dust. Why I don't know? It actually takes you off balance a bit.
When I drilled the last hole I didn't clear the dust till the drill was
poking through the other side of the soapstone.
It would be interesting to learn if leaving or removing the dust matters in the process. The dust I created is heavy and I don't think the banner would remove it.
But if I turned the banner upside down it would be better for that idea.
About wood weight-- why not on atatl shafts too. Why don't we find atatal shafts here in N. America??
I really appreciate the neat responses. It may help me sleep better.
Thanks again and here is another link.
Zuma
Drills of Indians - Marianopolis
faculty.marianopolis.edu/c.Belanger/.../DrillsofIndians.htm (http://Drills of Indians - Marianopolis
faculty.marianopolis.edu/c.Belanger/.../DrillsofIndians.htm)
The work done by the American Bureau was monumental, well informed and ... Artificially perforated objects of bone/
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LOL I forgot Patrick,
I know full well you are an innovator extraordinaire.
So I post this just for you my friend.
Use a worm to clear a cane's core.
Put a wood bore larva in one end and seal it.
Then heat the shaft and make the worm eat for it's life. Use a little more heat
just before the job is done and you can eat a steamed treat as well.
Zuma
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About wood weight-- why not on atatl shafts too. Why don't we find atatal shafts here in N. America??
Zuma, there are survivimg examples of atlatl shafts, and the various parts, in the Southwest. Here is a good page that details finds in Tularosa Cave, New Mexico:
http://basketmakeratlatl.com/?page_id=458
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For those who are not aware, many atlatls in the Southwest look like the example below. Note the use of colorful river pebbles as atlatl weights. No bannerstones here. :)
---http://basketmakeratlatl.com/?page_id=1129
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As far as drills being found with bannerstones on the same sites, I don't know. I'll need to research that. But the time period for bannerstones was about 6000 B.P. to 3000 B.P. This was a VERY long period (at least 3000 years) and many drills have been dated to this period ( Middle Archaic to Late Archaic ) .... so the possibility of finding both together is certainly there.
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So, I looked for examples of bannerstones found West of the "Big Muddy" and found a few posted by a collector who found them near Caddo Lake, which straddles the border between Texas and Louisiana.
---http://www.arrowheadology.com/forums/hardstone/48647-more-bannerstone-halves.html
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Thank you so much Jack.
This is the info we need.
I wrote this before your last post.
Thanks again for being involved. Means a lot.
Please don't take me in a negative way.
But let's look at the images.
Frame one is dart shafts. I can go with that.
Frame two is fore shafts. I can go with that.
The next to last frame gives you the area where a 3/8" -1/2"
bannerstone is supposed to fit???
Think about it. Could they slip those drilled stones up from the handle end??
Yes and btw the last frame is Larry's modern interpretation from Paleo Planet.
I would sure like his input here.
It takes him like ten hours to drill a banner hole??
I have been at this for quite awhile and no matter what the reality of these modified
stones, is that they are totally fascinating. IMO equal to the ability for Clovis man to strike a flute.
Naw more advanced.
Please don't let my bias coerce your thoughts and keep you from posting them.
Attempting to solve mysteries is fun. Please join in.
Zuma
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Zuma, I like these discussions as well. :)
Just to be clear, I don't think the drilled bannerstones were atlatl weights. I think you don't believe that either, but I'm not sure. I get confused when you mention that a drilled bannerstone might be able to be slipped onto the atlatl from the narrow end. I don't believe this was done in the Southwest ( or anywhere else ) and I think you agree with this but, again, I'm not sure.
On a side note, as far as grooved stones go, I consider some of these to be atlatl weights but I have seen discussions that call these "bannerstones" as well and it can get confusing. There are certainly grooved stones found everywhere in the US and, since these are sometimes called bannerstones ( or boatstones ) , it's difficult to have a clear discussion sometimes.
I try to keep them separated in my side of the discussion by using only the term "atlatl weights" for weights actually attached to an atlatl and "bannerstones" or "boatstones" as mysterious items.
Your experiments with bannerstones as drill weights is very interesting. I think you are definitely onto something. I think drilling was important enough to spend time making "fancy" tools for drilling. Drilling is certainly a more logical use for the bannerstones than for atlatl weights, simply because atlatls are subject to a lot of abuse and are easily dropped or otherwise mishandled which could lead to the breakage of delicate bannerstones.
Again, just to be clear, there are real atlatl artifacts that clearly have stone weights attached. I believe that atlatl weights were used and that there is no doubt of their existence.
Some have put forth the idea that drilled bannerstones would slide up and down the atlatl during a throw, but I don't see any logic to this idea whatsoever.
I'll try to find some atlatl artifact pictures from areas other than the southwest. I think I remember seeing some from the Northeast.
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No problem Jack.
I was a little sarcastic and not very clear about the Bannerstone atatl fit.
I am glad you agree about the drilling possibility and make good points for it.
I have a good link for atatls from Alaska and Canada.
A collection maintained by the Smithsonian I think.
These are quite elaborate. I hope everyone has a look. No rocks.
For me there is really no need to discuss atatls at all, except to try and explain
that the common winged type banner does not fit on known ancient atatls
but is a perfect fit for arrow type shafts.
Atatl limbs are wider and flat, not cylindrical and 3/8" in diameter.
To tackle all the other types, like boat and bird stones would be a side to the
drilling as research may turn up interesting info on those artifacts also.
There is a lot of work left IMO to just understand the evolution of North American
ABO drilling. So far the links I have found have opened some doors for things like
dates and Provence. Putting together all the different info in a cronical order along
with associated archaeological data may help shed some light on these winged bannerstones.
Smithsonian Atlatls - ImageEvent (http://Smithsonian Atlatls - ImageEvent)
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This discussion is fascinating. I'm going to have to find some time to read the links provided.
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Thanks for being interested Jackson,
You will have to tip toe throught the tulips to make heads or tails of the info.
But the screws are turning in a good direction.
Here is a blurb from a link that I like. Well this part. lol
Zuma
Connaway also made a great discovery while examining the long tubular beads. Looking through a microscope he discovered striations caused by grinding encircled the beads. This meant that they had been hafted and turned on a lathe. Interestingly, Connaway found that one bead had been partially drilled and in the hole he discovered the stone drill bit. The drill had become wedged in the bead and had broken. The bit, about the size of a grain of rice, was made of the local Citronelle gravel. By carefully studying the Keenan cache Connaway was able to deduce the steps of manufacture employed by the bead maker. Additionally, the fact that so many beads were found together in an unfinished state strongly suggested a specialist at work. Previously, such craftsmanship had not been thought to exist in this period. Further data from Louisiana, at a site across the river south of Vicksburg, also suggests that specialists were making beads there. In summary, some bead makers were at least part-time craft specialists. The tools employed in the manufacture of stone beads were rather sophisticated. A lathe and a form of drill press were used, and possibly also a bow drill, even though the bow and arrow was unknown in America at this time period.
Prehistoric Mississippi: Some New Perspectives | Mississippi ... (http://Prehistoric Mississippi: Some New Perspectives | Mississippi ...)
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I made a couple more bannerstones.
One thing that is cool about making them is--- It's pretty easy
to get them balanced. After I get the basic shape, then I drill the hole.
This is interesting as I would think hole length is not the most important
aspect in getting a banner balanced or aerodynamic. It could be a hint in their evolution. The butterfly type is an example of this.
The two banners I made have the same length holes but the butterfly one has much more weight.
The shape of the wings really lends itself towards refining the balance of the
banner. Most of these type banners have wing shapes that taper to the edges.
In other words if you slip a shaft that fits a little loosely through the hole of
a near finished banner, the heavier wing will tilt down.
By then grinding a little on the heavier wing you can get the banner well balanced.
IMO balance is all important for a drilling aid.
Zuma
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I showed this thread to my wife- she just finished her thesis on manufacturing methods of beads. The ones she studied were all from southern France though. She thinks the flywheel idea is a good one. I agree with your statements about the butterfly or winged style being easy to balance. I would think that a disk would make a better flywheel when balanced, but it would be harder to balance. That is my opinion, but I've not tried to balance either...
I've got a question about your drill rig - Have you tried mounting the banner stone lower, towards the tip? I would think that would lend some stability to the bit.
Also, does anyone know if these types of stones have been found all over the world, or just in the Americas? My wife hadn't heard of them previously, but all of her research is in Europe.
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Jackson As far as discs go--- I don't know of any being found. Have you seen some?
They would certainly be easy to make. There are tons of gorgets and other slate artifacts drilled through the flat side of slate etc.
Personally I don't think they would work as well as wings. The wings seem to have a definite part in the spin and reversal of the shaft. I would like to see how the air moves around different types of bannerstones. In smoke, dry ice mist, inferred etc. They may sort of work like a propeller. One of the links said most often the wings are somewhat twisted.
Mine are pretty flat but perhaps I will make a bent one if I get to see some from digs.
The position I like best is the bow string right above the drill bit. It seems most natural when kneeling. I don't think it makes much difference in speed or wobble since the shaft is so short. Then again when the string is highest it can have a tendency to push/pull the swivel block and left hand a bit more.
The more I look into drilling the more beads show up. They may be key to some of the drilling evolution.
Any info your wife can help us with will be interesting and appreciated.
Thanks, Zuma
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I'll see what she has to say on the subject. Here is a link to the collection she was able to study:
https://www.beloit.edu/logan_online/exhibitions/virtual_exhibitions/before_history/europe/abri_blanchard.php (https://www.beloit.edu/logan_online/exhibitions/virtual_exhibitions/before_history/europe/abri_blanchard.php)
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Zuma, are you somehow attaching the stone to the spindle or is it free to spin?
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Thanks for the link Jackson.
Thinking about the bead industry has now made me question the small pointy
stones that some are calling atatl hooks. A lot show up in California where there
was plenty of stone and shell beads like abalone etc.
How neat they would fit into a hollow in a piece of cane. With a little hoof glue Wala drill a bead.
DC--- I whittle a strip off a branch with a knife. It makes a nice slender wedge with an arc
that fits the hole of the banner. That way the weight pushes down against the wedge and the banner is secure. It moves with the shaft. Pops back off nicely.
Zuma
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;D I made this one today
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Well I finally got back to CANE. As the photos will show, I reversed the ends of the cane.
Wether this helped the most is hard to tell because when I was drilling with abrasive dust I didn't realize that I had the shape of the cane wrong. I had to much drag on the shaft with the rounded shape causing the string to slip and deteriorate. In the photo I tried to draw the square end proper shape.
I made a new drill bit. It was wider than the one I made from English flint.
Perhaps it was a little softer as I re sharpened it a couple times before it broke. I think it's heat treated Edwards.
Think I will just use raw rock from now on.
The drilling time was pretty good but a little slower than the English.
Perhaps to do with the fact that it a wider bit and the softness?
It took about twelve minuets to drill almost all the way through the soapstone.
It would have taken longer to finish the hole as it needed to be wider all the way through.
The string stretched and I re-tightened it several times. The last time, I think to tight as that is when I snapped the bit. I think it was due to the string being to tight and the drill wedging when I gave to much force to start the rotation. Still a lot to learn. LOL I can now try the cane with dust again as I snapped the drill I hafted to it. Oh and I used the same banner.
Zuma
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More photos. Oh I forgot some of the photos how the cane was preped for hafting and how I align the drill and shaft. I think the four equal sided bit is best for long holes????
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I saw a discussion like this on Paleo planet where the spindle whorl and atlatl weight thing was discussed for pages. They brought up great information. Take a trip over and search the atlatl posts to learn more.
Larry Kinsella has experimented with these in a lot of fascinating ways. He has made them from igneous and slate rocks using abo procedures. He even published a paper on the effect of bannerstones on an atlatlist's arms. The Bannerstone: A Prehistoric, Prey-Specific Artifact Designed for Use in the Eastern Woodlands of North America" is now published in "Ethnoarchaeology: Journal of Archaeological, Ethnographic, and Experimental Studies Vol. #5, Number 1, April 2013.
In that study he worked with some physiologists who showed a hunter using a bannerstone atlatl had less muscle fatigue associated with holding the dart in a pre-launch position. All hunters know that holding still for long periods can be agonizing and cause muscle fatigue and shakes. Could they help with that. Larry's research indicates they can so we can't rule that out.
Larry has also won the World Atlatl Association distance competition with an atlatl that had a bannerstone on it. He competed against others who used "bannerstone-less" atlatls. Please don't misunderstand me to say they are are superior. I am just saying they can perform. again you can't rule them out for this.
I think the Indian Knoll Kentucky burials are worth investigating. If you look at the burials you find atlatl hooks, handles and bannerstones in their original positions. This occurs not once, not twice but multiple times showing this was how they were arranged.
That is very convincing evidence for me. Bannerstones in context in an environment that preserved some details.
Part of figuring something out is determining can it work. So far I see evidence on both sides of this discussion that show bannerstones CAN function as spindle whorls or on atlatls. I have not heard a convincing functional point to rule out either.
Obviously, I am in the atlatl camp on this one. Bannerstones disappear with the advent of the bow and I am 100% certain the demand for woven material never went away in the Woodland or Mississippian periods. If anything they went up. Demand for cord and fabric persisted well until the Protohistoric period. Then you see a move away from woven garments but not a total elimination. If bannerstones were indeed a spindle whorl they why abandon them? into the Woodland transition? That is simply a logical argument and not one based on harder facts.
I think experiments on both sides of the fence help figure what is possible and what can work. anyone passionate about bannerstones should read up on them and try things out for themselves.
I once thought some things about atlatl function that I now don't; thanks to new evidence. I keep an open mind and ask others to dig in and do the same.
Zuma, keep doing what you are doing.
Respectfully,
A. J. Hendershott
AKA Swamp Monkey
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Swamp, A.J.,
Thanks for your reply and information. I hear Webb mentioned often.
He and the large drilled shell artifacts he calls atatl weights may be just that.
I have looked on Paleo Planet I even joined but find the site difficult to post on.
I saw a thread you did on making a replica of one of Webb's finds.
I think that artifact was a composite of several shells drilled with quite large holes.
Nothing like what I am talking about here.
Have you seen where the winged or shield type stone banners are also found
by Webb or anyone in context? I can't. All ancient atatls I have seen are flat
shaped and would not fit 3/8-1/2 inch round holes. (Smithsonian link)
I have never seen one with antler either? Have you?
Did Larry use a bannerstone like a winged one? I see he makes atatls with tie on
stones that have no holes. Do you know which type he used when he won the competition?
I really don't pursue textiles and prefer to stay with drilling.
I made what I think may be a bead manufacturing type Abo lathe.
It would work for all types of drilling also. Just think of what one three times bigger could do?
Your point about whorls is interesting. What I have said about banners not making it into the
Woodland era is also interesting. I am not totally sure if all holes like I am talking about
went away also ( like gorgets, pendants etc.) I just can't find info on this as yet.
If all similar drilled holes went away in the same time period, it would be compelling for a drilling
use, and not bad for the new use of the bow. I have no doubt I could duplicate anything in the
useful atatl world with nothing but wood. Much quicker and readily available anywhere.
I really don't like to argue or counter belief in atatl weights. I am shooting for drill weight and turning aid
for the bow drill and like to stay focused on that. Although adding counter thoughts are
unfortunately part of the program.
A. J. please keep me honest as so much of the entirety of bannerstones is speculation.
We need any and all technical and archaeological info available.
Thanks again, Zuma
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I will reply to what i can below.
Swamp, A.J.,
Thanks for your reply and information. I hear Webb mentioned often.
He and the large drilled shell artifacts he calls atatl weights may be just that.
I have looked on Paleo Planet I even joined but find the site difficult to post on.
I saw a thread you did on making a replica of one of Webb's finds.
I think that artifact was a composite of several shells drilled with quite large holes.
Nothing like what I am talking about here.
Have you seen where the winged or shield type stone banners are also found
by Webb or anyone in context?
look at the pic I posted. This is just one images of bannerstones and hooks found in context. I am reviewing Webb's book. One image was published (i think) showing things in position.
I can't. All ancient atlatls I have seen are flat
Most of your western Atlatls are flat; a few are round though. One found in Oregon sticks out in my mind. I made a replica. It is known as the Nicholarson cave atlatl. Another was found in California made of willow. I posted pics of my replicas below.
Most of your eastern atlatls rot, so precious few made it to be found and described. Two intact atlatls from the Ozarks and a few more fragments from the Bluff Dweller finds also indicate round cross sections. Point - atlatls can have a round cross section.
shaped and would not fit 3/8-1/2 inch round holes. (Smithsonian link)
I have never seen one with antler either? Have you?
Webb's book has multiple examples of antler hooks. see image below I am also aware of multiple archeological finds across Missouri that sport varieties of antler atlatl hooks. I suspect they occur across the eastern part of N. America.
Did Larry use a bannerstone like a winged one? I see he makes atlatls with tie on
stones that have no holes. Do you know which type he used when he won the competition?
I do not know, but now that you ask, I am curious. I will ask and see what it was. Here is a link to a drilled hole banner that he made. I think it is the one he used in his examination of the arm strain. http://flintknapper.com/Larry%27s%20SEAC%20paper.htm
I really don't pursue textiles and prefer to stay with drilling.
I made what I think may be a bead manufacturing type Abo lathe.
It would work for all types of drilling also. Just think of what one three times bigger could do?
Your point about whorls is interesting. What I have said about banners not making it into the
Woodland era is also interesting. I am not totally sure if all holes like I am talking about
went away also ( like gorgets, pendants etc.) I just can't find info on this as yet.
Drilling was indeed necessary for gorgets well into the historic period. I am aware of shell gorgets from the Mississippian and Proto-historic periods Some with many holes and others with complex holes. Further more the production of shell disk beads was at its peak during the Mississippian Period. Micro drills were in use for drilling the holes. So, drilling was absolutely needed past the Archaic period. In fact I would say after the archaic/ woodland transition drilling ramped up along with every other type of prehistoric art form.
Sorry about getting off topic with textile spinning. I have read more about the bannerstone drop spindle discussion. It was stuck in my brain. I will see if I can find that thread on PP. Unless I miss my guess many of the historic tribes from the Deep South still made shell gorgets after Euro contact. I am more versed on the mound builder shell tech than historic tribe use of the same stuff.
If all similar drilled holes went away in the same time period, it would be compelling for a drilling
use, and not bad for the new use of the bow. I have no doubt I could duplicate anything in the
useful atatl world with nothing but wood. Much quicker and readily available anywhere.
I really don't like to argue or counter belief in atatl weights. I am shooting for drill weight and turning aid
for the bow drill and like to stay focused on that. Although adding counter thoughts are
unfortunately part of the program.
A. J. please keep me honest as so much of the entirety of bannerstones is speculation.
Where else can you have this kind of discussion?!! If I discuss this type of thing with my wife she gets drowsy. ::)
We need any and all technical and archaeological info available.
Thanks again, Zuma
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Here is that PP link where bannerstones are discussed. You have to skip through some of the flippant stuff to find the meat of the discussion.
http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/47286/Those-confusing-atlatl-weights?page=1#.VFaUW2ffWKo
Read every page of it. There is a lot of good points on both sides. The post title says it all. Those confusing atlatl weights.
Let's keep talking and keep experimenting.
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Objects as found in grave. There was some settling as decomp occurred. Banners with antler hooks. Other graves had banners with handles, while still others had banners with both antler handles and antler hooks.
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Swamp,
Thanks for posting all the info. Here are my thoughts.
In the photos with antler hooks there are no winged or shield type banners.
The cave find has a stone with no hole and the willow has no stone at all.
Paleo Planet, Larry and one of the links I posted mention that there are no drilled
bannerstones west of the Mississippi. I am not sure about all this as I am trying to associate drilled winged banners with drilling.
In your last images of the grave components, do you know the diameter of the antler and the drilled components? Do they match? I can't find the total report from Indian Knolls. If I could I might find some clue as to how all those stones were drilled.??
Zuma
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Wow Zuma, really doing this well.
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Swamp,
Thanks for posting all the info. Here are my thoughts.
In the photos with antler hooks there are no winged or shield type banners.
The cave find has a stone with no hole and the willow has no stone at all.
Paleo Planet, Larry and one of the links I posted mention that there are no drilled
bannerstones west of the Mississippi. I am not sure about all this as I am trying to associate drilled winged banners with drilling.
In your last images of the grave components, do you know the diameter of the antler and the drilled components? Do they match? I can't find the total report from Indian Knolls. If I could I might find some clue as to how all those stones were drilled.??
Zuma
.here are some quick answers to two of your questions. I am aware of definite drilled winged bannerstones from Missouri archeological site.
The holes are roughly 13 mm in diameter in the banners and the antler Spurs.
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Thanks Parnell.
A lot of the thanks goes to Swampy and Jack. They are well versed in atatl technology and willing to share.
Swampy-- In a way I was just trying to confirm whether or not wings showed up at the Knolls
because I don't think the more tubular shape would be used for drilling. Those antlers and banners
in your images are really quite compelling. The image says ik ky. does that mean they were all found at the knolls? If so do you know where the ones that were not in graves were found?
I am confused as there is no image of what a complete atatl from Indian knolls would look like?
In the grave images the antlers are not plugged into the banners? I wish I could get all the images and reports for that site. Just to many questions.
It would be interesting to be able to date each and every drilled stone type and see how they mesh/ evolve along with the drilling methods of the eras.
Here is a drill related links. It is not America but very in depth and interesting.
The Change from Stone Drills to Copper Drills in Mesopotamia (http://The Change from Stone Drills to Copper Drills in Mesopotamia)
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Swampy-- " The image says ik ky. does that mean they were all found at the knolls? Yes, you are correct, that means that image was from Indian knoll KY.
I am confused as there is no image of what a complete atatl from Indian knolls would look like?
In the grave images the antlers are not plugged into the banners? I wish I could get all the images and reports for that site. Just to many questions.
Below is an image of what one of these atlatls would have looked like more or less. The bannerstones are not exactly like those found in Indian Knoll. I am just saying that for full disclosure,
Do a web search on "Atlatls and Bannerstones: Excavations at Indian Knoll" by William Webb. I promise you will find a someone who sells this book.
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Swampy,
Those atals are real cool looking.
Don't get me wrong----
There is just something about that configuration that don't sit right with me.
I realize you say the real finds had different stones. "More tubular I think"
First I would worry about cracking myself in the head or ear with that type
banner. (winged or shield) Also stabilizing the dart shaft on the rig, looks like it would
be very difficult. Also I think the wing shape would produce erratic results as
the wing would cause a planning of sorts.(To many diverse surfaces for air to pass over)
And of course all the technical aspects of creating such a tool when a plain stick
will do the job quite well. No offence just my 2 cents.
Zuma
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Swampy,
Those atals are real cool looking.
Don't get me wrong----
There is just something about that configuration that don't sit right with me.
I realize you say the real finds had different stones. "More tubular I think"
First I would worry about cracking myself in the head or ear with that type
banner.
I have used both of those atlatls and I assure you cracking you head is not a worry ;)
(winged or shield) Also stabilizing the dart shaft on the rig, looks like it would
be very difficult.
I haven't noticed any difficulty.
Also I think the wing shape would produce erratic results as
the wing would cause a planning of sorts.(To many diverse surfaces for air to pass over)
The stones do resist acceleration which is why the sound is suppressed when you throw. Slow moving things make less wind noise. However, wind resistance is minor and provides no effect.
And of course all the technical aspects of creating such a tool when a plain stick
will do the job quite well. No offence just my 2 cents.
No offense taken. I too wonder why they did this. I have to realize i don't live like they did nor have their customs. So I will always be at some disadvantage to understand this. One thing I know is that hunter gathers had time for projects in winter and this may have been one of many things they decided to occupy their time with. Create elaborate bannerstones.
Zuma
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Great reply Swamp.
I guess I am a bit unfair in my assessment of weighted atatls as I haven't actually tried them out.
Perhaps the Indian Knolls finds are more ceremonial or made for high status folks.
Also there may be a distinction between which banners were for hunting and which for drilling and possible textile use.
I tied one end of my ABO lathe string to a branch on my cherry tree.
It returns the string real well. It bobbles a bit when the branch returns
because of all the other smaller branches springing around.
A single branch or sapling would be better. Next is a weight over a stable
branch on the end of the string.
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More on bannertones. A paper on the topic.
http://www.maneyonline.com/doi/pdfplus/10.1179/1944289013Z.0000000003
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Thanx ever so much for posting the Kinsella paper.
It's been a while since I read good academic work. This is good stuff!
OneBow
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I thought it was good also !
May have to do some experiments myself now
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Thanx ever so much for posting the Kinsella paper.
It's been a while since I read good academic work. This is good stuff!
OneBow
Are you all talking about the Larry Kinsella paper about bannerstones being
used exclusively for killing whitetail deer??? I can't download the file you posted swampy
but I think I found it through maneyonline.
I'd be glad to make several points about the paper if it is the
"Prehistoric Prey Specific Artifact for Whitetail Deer Hunters"??
Zuma
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Thanx ever so much for posting the Kinsella paper.
It's been a while since I read good academic work. This is good stuff!
OneBow
Are you all talking about the Larry Kinsella paper about bannerstones being
used exclusively for killing whitetail deer??? I can't download the file you posted swampy
but I think I found it through maneyonline.
I'd be glad to make several points about the paper if it is the
"Prehistoric Prey Specific Artifact for Whitetail Deer Hunters"??
Zuma
Yes - that's the one. - OneBow
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I have thought long and hard about addressing beliefs that winged type
bannerstones were used for hunting. Especially a specific species.
Since there is no hard evidence in the archaeological records of a winged
bannerstone being found on a known atatl shaft. Webb's grave finds of antlers
and bannerstones in a burial mound are still just his speculation.
To me it is just such rumor that can start a train of misguided thinking.
The original use of banners was documented as ceremonial. This should
still be a big consideration. Although the fact that bannerstones are as likely
to be found in refuse pits and graves of women and children.
The forests of the Archaic time period were boreal, totally un -cut mature forests
with a light blocking canopy. These forest were not the domain of white tailed
deer. More of an elk habitat. Elk inhabited nearly the entire US and it would be
hard to think hunters wouldn't at least attempt to kill them with atatls with similar
tactics employed for deer hunting. Not to mention Moose, seals, Manatee,
javelina, wolf, beaver and what not.
I think there are a multitude of arguments about using drilled stone on atatl shafts.
One very simple one would be to use a dense hard wood weight that would require way less time to craft and also be more durable to boot.
Although I have no archaeological proof that bannerstones were used as drilling aides.I think there are more reasonable possibilities.to contemplate.
I am still amazed about the lack of archaeological record for stone drills and drilling. I would think that in the year 2014 science could easily reveal
the use of a bannerstone. I guess the modern discipline's are way more to concerned with finding something solid that pre dates Clovis. lol
Zuma
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Zuma
we await your writings on prehistoric drilling
Lead the way and others will follow
I am sure there is alot to be rediscovered!
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Bucheye,
Thanks for the bump but don't hold your breath. lol
I am presently at a research dead end about drills/drilling
stones in N. America.
Perhaps this winter with a high speed internet connection I can
find some University files that contain info on drills and hopefully
some hints about techniques. Drilling with cane is all I have
found so far.
If you get bored, please see what you can find.
Thanks
Zuma
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Bored was last year but it all over now so not much time to look now
Wish you would have brought this up then!
Hey the thread on AtlAtl books made me think there were a couple of fellows at Flint Ridge selling old university report books on some of the digs do you ever get to the knapin in the fall that goes on there maybe we can find something there ?
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Here are some of my personal finds.
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A few more banners. Sorry they are broken.
Zuma
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A complete notched and a couple preforms.
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OK, I think I've made up my mind on the drilled, winged bannerstone thing:
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,50085.0.html
Zuma, forgive me. Don't mean to highjack. :)
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No problem at all Patrick:D
I wish I could come up with something more myself.
These stones are a great subject. I have to check out your thread.
Zuma
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The original use of banners was documented as ceremonial.
curious as to what documents are available to show proof of this statement.
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In 1916, Clarence B. Moore published his findings from excavations done at Indian Knoll along the Green River in Ohio County, Kentucky. He found several bannerstones in association with antler hooks. From his findings Moore surmised that the bannerstones were net spacers and the hooks were netting needles. Based on Moore's findings Dr. George H. Pepper of the Heye Foundation suggested that the hooks and banner-stones were used in conjunction with each other as hair ornaments.
In 1938, William S. Webb returned to the Green River in Ohio County, Kentucky to conduct excavations at the Chiggerville Site, which was about three miles from Indian Knoll. In burial 44, Webb found a butterfly bannerstone made from what he describes as ferruginous chert and an atlatl hook. Based on Moore's work and his own work here and in Alabama, Webb proposed the theory that bannerstones were used as atlatl (spearthrower) weights placed between a handle and a bone or antler hook. This theory has been widely accepted by professional archaeologists and persists to this day as the most common explanation for the usage of bannerstones.
In 1939, Byron Knoblock published his monumental Bannerstones of the North American Indian. Although Knoblock's theories on antiquity and the evolution of all bannerstone forms from one primary form is dated and probably invalid, his system of placing all bannerstones within a named group is masterful. By studying the lines and planes of bannerstones, Knoblock developed a system of terminology where every bannerstone can be categorized and named. This has been invaluable to collectors and researchers alike due to the fact that we can all "speak the same language" in regards to bannerstones.
Knoblock stuck with the older theories on the usage of bannerstones. He believed they were ornamental or ceremonial objects. His conclusions were based partly on the fact that certain forms of bannerstones were usually made from exotic and beautiful material, such as ferruginous quartz or highly banded slate. He also felt that the time expended in making bannerstones, coupled with their fragile nature, would certainly negate their usage as utilitarian objects.
Source: http://arrowheads.com/index.php/forums/atlatl-weights-a-bannerstones/79249-bannerstone-usage-theories
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All just theory, not documented proof.
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I looked for the papers for about an hour. To get the actual hard copies, it looks like I would have to spend some money for Pepper's comments and his other writings, for example.
Usually it takes me about 20 hours to locate a free source of information for topics as obscure as these. That's 20 hours for EACH author, if they are still in print and/or if I can locate someone who will give them to me. I did this type of thing with Texas Clovis finds and data concerning actual weights and dimensions for Texas arrow points (bird points) and associated debitage. It was a bottomless pit of goose-chasing fun. I did learn something, though. With enough determination, tenacity, and money, you can create quite a splat on a brick wall.... ;D
I'll continue searching. I may not find documented proof from these particular authors but there is documentation for the early interpretations of the finds from the various mounds. It's hard for archies to keep silent about their opinions. ;)
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Ok, I found a google book on the subject. Published in 1916. I will post links to the books and to clips of some of the pages.
Link to book (see pages 165 to 176):
https://books.google.com/books?id=Kb7OAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA178-IA29&dq=banner-stone&hl=en&sa=X&ei=t1ipVLDgNsKjNoy0g6gE&ved=0CEoQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=banner-stone&f=false
Links to pages:
page 165
https://books.google.com/books?id=Kb7OAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA178-IA13&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U0PwwazFdKty3cUes0_TzQl6aistA&ci=67%2C136%2C838%2C1270&edge=0
partial clip page 171
https://books.google.com/books?id=Kb7OAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA178-IA33&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U0zU7qyYaGJO_IygM_yUdAI8h1cqA&ci=95%2C234%2C750%2C232&edge=0
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Now that I know the links work (at least for me) the book is called:
NEW YORK STATE MUSEUM
70th Annual Report
1916.
The author of the bannerstone section: Arthur C. Parker, Archaeologist
The report describes various hypothetical uses for bannerstones including spindle whorls, pipe stands, helmet ornaments, and atlatl weights.
I'm not on my MAC so I can't cut and paste pictures of the pages. If someone needs them I will try to take screen shots when I'm able.
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My point is that there is no "proof" of anything, the "documents" you are giving me are putting forth ideas and theories, are no more or less valid than any other I have seen including what Larry K has put forth, most recently. It seems to me that nearly every idea can be made to sound sensible and proven. Sure it could be drill spindle, or a head dress, or a platform to hold up my pipe when I set it down, but none of these theories is proof because there are anomalies in the designs of known banner stones that preclude these theories from being all encompassed by one theory. A flat bottomed D shaped banner will not work very well as a spindle whorl, gonna wobble pretty badly. All I have seen is "proof" that there where probably many many uses for them.
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I'm not sure anyone could answer you, Steve. To show you "proof" would require a time machine. And even then, when you come back, you would not have any "proof" to show the rest of us. :-\
Honestly, I thought you wanted proof of the statements being made, not proof of the actual use. The actual use of any artifact is difficult to prove, even when we have eye-witness accounts from explorers and settlers from back in the day.
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Don stated there was "documented proof" of use a ceremonial objects, I guess to me that means there is something written down by the original users. Drawings or written manuscript would be "documented proof", or actual intact artifacts. Anything written about what we think it was is not documented proof, just documented theory. We may never know for sure.
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OK, gotcha.
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Good to see the desire for knowledge alive and well. The time and effort Patrick and others have put into
this subject is staggering.
Steve, if you are refering to me about documented proof, I only wrote (Documented) (in original papers).
I don't know if you read all the links on these bannerstone threads.
Some are really worth reading.
I am a stickler and always try to read between the lines. I wrote technical manuals for the military and
areo space support companies. Things have changed these days. Archaeology has become a free for all and no longer a discipline. If Webb did his job he would have just reported what he found and where.
The job of what the objects were should have been left in the lap of anthropologists. ( known speculators)
I think I'll do a little rant. lol >:D
How the heck do all these archaeologists ever expect to be taken serious
about Pre Clovis hype if there is not as yet solid information on such more recent artifacts
as georgets and bannerstones. Perhaps the old school has clues in reports that are buried or only for sale.
I have reached saturation in the research dept.
Not saying I won't try a different avenue now and then.
Bannerstones are really not that rare in the areas where I hunted artifacts back in NJ
and PA. But they would be very rare compared to atatls that must have been in use.
That is if every archaic atatl hunter was equipped with one.
The one major thing that keeps me in the drilling aide mode is----
I don't think the average Joe (hunter) back then could drill a stone.
The task must have been cutting edge. More difficult than striking flutes in finished Clovis points.
Sure most banners are made of relatively soft stone but some are quartz and granite.
There was much attention given to aesthetic value also. (competitiveness)
Perhaps because of a competitive nature between the drill masters?
No matter how these objects were employed they originated in the hands of the Drill Master.
A guy/gal in that day and age that may have been buried with a bannerstone or other drilled object.
Sure just my speculation, no different than the rest of the field.
Zuma
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This is a good link. No dates unfortunatley. The Jackson Island workshop link
is posted in the early pages of this thread.
Zuma
Get PDF (1511K) - Wiley Online Library (http://Get PDF (1511K) - Wiley Online Library)
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Bump. :)
And I was thinking... What if bannerstones found with women and children (in burials) was a way for a man to identify his family? Regardless of what the bannerstones were used for, assuming it was a "man" thing, burying your loved ones with something that is obviously personal to you, and identifies you as an individual, makes more sense to me than the idea that women and children actually used the bannerstones. Just a thought.
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Isn't that kinda the meaning of ceremonial ?
At least it is a big part of what I think of when they say ceremonial
I have a lot of things that have a special meaning to me
As I sit here thinking about it most of those things are from those that have gone before me and may well end up buried with me or my children
No real spiritual aspect just a part of what makes me me I guess
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Exactly.