Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: BigWapiti on January 13, 2008, 06:50:48 pm
-
Reading the TBB1, they keep mentioning Second-String woods... sometimes while also talking about white woods. What is a second string wood? Again, I tried to read backwards in the 'bible' and couldn't find where they actually define the term second-string woods. I also looked up the Glossary posted on this site, wasn't there either (that I found anyway).
Thanks!
Mike
-
Good question Mike, i would be interested in the answer myself ???
-
Second string woods are anything but osage and yew or woods that traditionally werent used for bows....I think we have all kinda gone past that mentality now.... Brian
-
Ah hah - Second string as in football (read as my football career -pout), being not quite the regulars in the game --- as opposed to having a second string, or something to the matter.
Thanks Brian - that makes sense.
-
koan Iim going to be the devils >:D advocate ;D Who says osage and yew are traditional while ash, hickory, black locost, maple, elm,
beech, birch, hornbeam, hophornbeam, fruit trees etc, etc, you get the drift, aren't traditional. seems to me in reading various books
that the Native Americans used what was available. Also remember reading that many of the second string woods out perform osage and yew
pound for pound. Granted osage is very tough and durable so is a good choice for a hunting bow, but we can't discount the other woods as
with proper design they will perform as good or better than the first string woods.
-
Dana, the Native Americans weren't infected with the snobbishness and narrow-mindedness that was central to the European longbow mindset. They used osage and yew, sure-but also everything else that they could get their hands on. The NA's were more apt to change their style of weapon to fit their lifestyle and the wood they had available. The European archery tradition believed (some still do, apparantly) that the ELB was the only feasible bow design, so if a wood didn't perform well as a ELB, well then it just wasn't fit for bow wood (Even though the American tribes had kept themselves fed and unconquered for a couple thousand years with bows made of other woods than osage and yew.) Pretty much all archery literature in the early-mid 20th century reflected the ELB style of archery, and dismissed the NA and other styles as inferior. Even Pope, who befriended and wrote about Ishi, wouldn't have dared hunt with an Indian bow-he had ELBitis, too.
-
I have to say that after re-reading the passages in TBBI, koan's definition fits. I read it now as if the second-string woods are not the 'typical' bow woods. You can define typical as you please - they seem to side step that definition (probably for good reason ;)).
-
Yep, BigWapiti, at the time that the TBB's came out, most people fervently believed that yew and osage (along with a couple exotics like lemonwood and snakewood) were the only woods that worked for bows. The fact that you are having to ask about "second-string woods" shows how much the TBB's have changed the perceptions of the archery world in the short time since they were published.
-
I am a big advocate of white woods, and believe they can perform as well as osage but I still rank osage as 1st string bow wood and most other woods 2nd or 3rd string. I love yew wood but have never had what I would call great performers from yew, consistently good yes. Super dry hickory is probably about the best performing wood but I would still rank it 2nd string because it changes so much with moisture. I can't help it but I just keep going back to osage, it is just so versatile, forgiving, and beautiful. Steve
-
Interesting stuff guys, but living in an osage desert if ya will it will continue to be more of a novelty for me
as I can't go cut it and won't pay the big price it seems to bring even though it is a fairly common wood.
Don't get me wrong I wish I had ready access to it but that is not a reality so I will use what is close to hand
much as the NA did.
-
Steve, osage and locust are probably the best all-around performers here in the Land of Complete Humidity Saturation.
-
Didnt mean to start this debate again....thats why I said we have grown past it ;)....the same guys that wrote the TBB use to say you couldnt use kiln dried wood also....I was just repeating what I read somewhere...not what I believe :-\ ;D....Brian
-
Didnt mean to start this debate again....thats why I said we have grown past it ;)....the same guys that wrote the TBB use to say you couldnt use kiln dried wood also....I was just repeating what I read somewhere...not what I believe :-\ ;D....Brian
but its a good debate brian, keeps the ideas moving forward. who would have thought we would have personal computers and the internet back in the 70's heck even the 80's ;)
-
Heck Dana...I just got one!lol......Brian
-
wait up, let me scribble all this down on my handheld pda computer....
-
Whitewoods vs osage. Brings back memories. I said this a long time ago, "Cast is not in the wood but cradled in the arms of the bowyer." Jawge
-
Jawge, I agree. I like osage simply because it's tough and it seems to resist our humidity better than other woods, but to me part of the fun of this is trying different woods and ideas. Also osage is almost nonexistant here, while other woods are readily available. I've made good shooters from ash, hickory, locust, osage, mulberry, elm, walnut, maple, etc. and will keep trying different woods as I get the chance to. If the design fits the wood, it'll make a good bow no matter what it is as long as it's a fairly dense, elastic wood.
-
I don't really see it as a debate anymore, just simple preferences. 90% of my bows are whitewood bows and I love making them and shooting them. I just have a little soft spot for osage. When I am getting ready for a flight shoot competiton I just favor whatever is doing best for me that day. Steve
-
I like most of the white woods, but it's sure hard to beat that yeller wood......... ;D
-
Yew and Osage:
1. Work well with traditional hand tools. Cut, scrape, rasp and sand easily and efficiently.
2. Are very elastic, strong in tension, and strong in compression (all at the same time) making them:
-Forgiving to tiller.
-Adaptable to many different designs.
-Longer-lasting.
-Consistent performers.
3. Are very rot-resistant.
4. Perform better though a wide range of moisture contents.
5. Are especially BEAUTIFUL.
Second string woods tend to lack one, some, or all of these benefits. For example:
My experience with Vine Maple:
1. Is a challenge to work, regardless of your skill level. You will spend more time dealing with washboards and torn grain than you will tillering. You will sand longer than the bow is likely to last (well, almost).
2. Is strong in tension, but crystals, takes set and breaks mysteriously nearly as often as it sustains unbelievable abuse and retains reflex.
3. Rots so fast you will probably have to throw away staves that looked perfectly healthy but were just growing full of cancer.
4. Performs well with moisture but moisture has a tendency to wake up the reaction wood and mess with string alignment and undo your steam work.
5. Looks like a rotten corpse without dye or stain on it.
I build more white wood bows than I do Yew or Osage. I like the variety and I'm glad that the bow building community isn't as prejudiced as it used to be toward these woods. However, there are a lot of good good reasons why most of my special, dependable hunting and roving bows are going to be Yew and Osage. It has to do with a lot more than performance.
J. D.
-
Well it does appear the debate is not over yet. :) Jawge
-
.....Amazing simply amazing. Goes underground but ALWAYS resurfaces.........bob
-
HMMM. I don't know JD, I think chasing a ring on Yew with a scraper is a horrible task. I would much prefer mulberry. Mulberry is so similar to Osage that it isn't funny, but was still considered a second string wood, I must defer to Hillbilly's first post. Justin
-
I read the deffinition in TBB, but as usual I'll find out for myself - with a little help from the good folks here of course. Perhaps one day, I'll be able to answer these kinds of question's :).
-
A lot of wood curls have hit the floor since the TBB series came out(not so long ago) and the knowledge of wood bows has multiplied many times over for the simple reason that lots more folks are interested in the subject and are experimenting with whatever they have available. Now, ain't that what primitive is? 8)
In different parts of our country and the world, different woods are available and different climatic features exist. Each area usually has a wood(s) that will make a bow. The only non frozen ;D continent that didn't develop archery was Australia(and they have good native bow wood). Every where else there was appropriate wood for archery(or wood and another component that would make a bow)...and it still is.
We(humans collectively) are to blame for anointing a few woods as superior to others. The purpose of a bow is to propel an arrow and for some of us the purpose of that arrow is to kill. An arrow going 6" into the chest of a deer will kill it as dead as an arrow that goes through the deer's chest and sticks up in the ground. The difference is our(collectively) belief that more is better. I am all for a clean, quick kill. A 30# bow with the right arrow and a sharp head is enough to kill most(if not all) North American animals. When I build a hunting bow I aim for 55#@26" because it is a comfortable weight for me and I can shoot it well. I have made 35# bows that I would hunt with it legal.
I LOVE OSAGE!!! ;D...but I make bows out of whatever I have available or can obtain from others. I also like to experiment with different woods. Pat
-
HMMM. I don't know JD, I think chasing a ring on Yew with a scraper is a horrible task. I would much prefer mulberry. Mulberry is so similar to Osage that it isn't funny, but was still considered a second string wood, I must defer to Hillbilly's first post. Justin
I'm illustrating a point that you're affirming Justin. We choose bow woods on a much wider set of criteria than what can be summed up with a single word: 'cast.' You like mulberry because it possesses qualities so similar to Osage 'it isn't funny.' Bob and others are right, we're past the argument about whether or not ELB's are the only style of bow that works; we're past the ignorant belief that hickory can't make flight bows; we're past believing that white-wood experimentation and exploration is an exercise in futility. We know that incredible bow woods other than Osage and Yew exist (Ipe comes to mind).
The point is, there are qualities that make some bow woods better than others. There are theoretical opposite ends of the quality spectrum. Those woods which contain the most advantages for bow builders have been dubbed 'first string.' Bow woods that have fewer desirable characteristics have been called 'second string.'
J. D.
-
JD, your description of vine maple made me laugh out loud - but I can't argue a single point you made ;D
-
Gordon, I was waiting for you to come along and just rip his head off!@! Here you are agreeing with him! LOL.
One thing about osage, there is good and bad osage bad osage is some of the worst junk I have ever worked. Too much spring growth makes the wood weak for it's weight. Steve
-
Oh, and the disclaimer: Lest my words are misconscrewed lol, I don't have anything at all against ELBs or ELB shooters- they are of course fine weapons and archers- and I've made a ELB or two and probably will again. There's just a whole world of other fine weapons and archery styles out there, too; and a good part of my enjoyment in this is trying different designs and woods. :)
-
Oh, you can make a fine weapon out of vine maple to be sure Steve - it's just that I have a love/hate relationship with that wood :D
-
Oh, you can make a fine weapon out of vine maple to be sure Steve - it's just that I have a love/hate relationship with that wood :D
That is EXACTLY what I was going to say after reading your first reply. ;D You put up with a lot to get the occasional bow of mind-boggling strength.
J. D.
-
Against my better judgement because I thought we put this to rest about 400 years ago (Sudbury bow; found circa 17 the Century; made from hickory; stored in Harvard's Peabody Museum). Pat I think your remarks were outstanding. Osage and yew do not grow around here. They are great bow woods. However, there are other bow woods that also work really well. I've used a variety of woods. In fact, I've made bows from all of the standard woods and then some.
JD you said:
"Yew and Osage:
1. Work well with traditional hand tools. Cut, scrape, rasp and sand easily and efficiently. (So do whitewoods.)
2. Are very elastic, strong in tension, and strong in compression (all at the same time) making them: (True enough for osage) Yew is elastic but medium in tension and compression; one's design for whitewood bows should compensate for med. elastic tension and compression; make them a little longer and wider; whitewoods poor in those factors should not be used and usually are not).
-Forgiving to tiller. (so is hickory)
-Adaptable to many different designs. (please elaborate; that hasn't been my experience).
-Longer-lasting. (see comments on Sudbury bow)
-Consistent performers. (please elaborate; consistency may be a relative term).
3. Are very rot-resistant. (As is black locust which really isn't a white wood; see initial comments regarding the Sudbury bow.)
4. Perform better though a wide range of moisture contents. (May be but a hickory bow at 5% will perform better than an osage bow at 5%. The osage bow may break at that level. Too low for osage.)
5. Are especially BEAUTIFUL. (I do like watching osage's color change. But so many stain osage bows because they ca not deal with its initial pale color; white wood bows can be us as pretty.)
Final comment- The bowyer should fit the design to the stave and not the other way around. :) Jawge
-
Traditionally, yew and osage are king... first string. All others are second string. Interesting debate here. That being said, if someone offered you a choice, what wood would you use? I'd pick osage or yew, because they make the best bows.
-
Jawge, I think good black locust would most certainly deserve a spot as a 1st string bow wood, I personally have not done so well with locust but I have seen some others bows that were nothing short of phenomonal. Thinnest bows I have ever seen were made from locust. I am working on one right now that needs some straightening but is down to about 1/4" thick and feels solid as a rock still, just barely starting to flex when I really lean on it. Steve
-
You put up with a lot to get the occasional bow of mind-boggling strength.
Amen to that JD. But when you get a good one out of vine maple, it is really something. I had one that was runover by a truck. It suffered multiple fractures and deep gouges all along the back. I patched it back together and I swear it looks and shoots better than it did before. Named it "2nd chance". Vine maple is some tough stuff. Here's a picture of that bow.
(http://mysite.verizon.net/res0oeio/Rick2/Rick2_5.jpg)
-
In some locations second string woods ARE first string woods. :D
-
I agree you gota use what you can get your hands on, and some very fine weapons can be made of most white woods, but if you've ever have the opportunity to work much with Osage, I guaranty you you will see the difference. It is hands down easier to get a good shooting durable weapon out of Osage then it is with white woods. Thats just the way I see it. Thats not to say I don't enjoy toying around with other woods just as much as the rest of you, but when it comes down to it, I'll pick Osage every time.
-
Hey Jawge,
I can appreciate what you're saying here brother, but are you trying to understand me here? I can't help but think that if you had read all I wrote carefully you wouldn't have bothered to reply. Clearly we agree.
My whole point is that certain woods have collections of desirable characteristics that make them logical first choices for making bows. Yew and Osage make the domestic first string cut because they have so many of these desirable qualities. Other bow woods share these qualities and others to different degrees making them more or less adaptable to bow building. As you wisely said: 'one's design for whitewood bows should compensate for med. elastic tension and compression; make them a little longer and wider; whitewoods poor in those factors should not be used and usually are not.' To my mind you are saying exactly what I am saying. Some woods are better than others.
J. D.
-
Its been a long time since I've actually read every post in a long thread, but that was fun.
That list of woods Tim Baker came up with is a good concept. A big group of bona fide bow woods, like all the ones mentioned above (A-Z, Apple - Zelkova) and then some reachers - like Tupelo or something.
Dave
-
Never had any real problems with Rowan. Bird cherry on the other hand is very weird. I have a bow that was 66# and took a lot of set and so I dropped it down to 50# and heat treated the belly. It cryshaled even though a good tiller. now it is still on one piece. I have tried to break it, but it just bends and bends and is very lazy.
The weirdest thing is that the best bow if mine is from bird cherry also. no chryshals 56# and 2" of set after 2 years of intense shooting.
I consider Rowan a first string wood. you just have to know how to deal with it. bird cherry would also be one, but the one bow makes me think. I have never shot a bow made from Osage or yew. I have only made bows of birch (definitely 2nd or third string), Rowan, bird cherry and maple. I see no need to even try Osage or yew.
-
So it comes down to use what ya have available ;D Up here in northern michigan, no osage, no yew, some locust in peoples yards >:(,
So in that sense they are not 1st rate bow woods because they are unavailabe. Can't even buy ipe or boo up here. So what I'm getting at is
what is first rate for me is different then other folks, The common factor is use what ya have and do the best ya can with it.
-
My, My, this one keeps coming up like a drowning fisherman. I have a different problem with wood. Between all the trades over the years and wood purchases,I have a hard time decideing which wood to use. If I'm lazy, I'll use white wood,like hickory. I've got to be on a mission to chase a ring on Osage. But like a lot of people I like my hunting bows made from them. Lately I've been playing with Ipe and I'm trying all kinds of variations of it.And a soon to come; bend it as much as I can Ipe bow build along or blow up.I have Cascara I keep looking at along with Pacific Dogwood,and more Vine Maple. After one VM I thought I'd take a break,never sanded wood that much to get tool marks out. And I'm still looking at that telephone straight ELB Eastern Red Cedar stave. Like Dana and a few others said, you got to try different stuff and experiment,don't get stuck on one wood or style of bow.
-
HMMM. I don't know JD, I think chasing a ring on Yew with a scraper is a horrible task. I would much prefer mulberry. Mulberry is so similar to Osage that it isn't funny, but was still considered a second string wood, I must defer to Hillbilly's first post. Justin
I'm illustrating a point that you're affirming Justin. We choose bow woods on a much wider set of criteria than what can be summed up with a single word: 'cast.' You like mulberry because it possesses qualities so similar to Osage 'it isn't funny.'
The point is, there are qualities that make some bow woods better than others. There are theoretical opposite ends of the quality spectrum. Those woods which contain the most advantages for bow builders have been dubbed 'first string.' Bow woods that have fewer desirable characteristics have been called 'second string.'
J. D.
The problem with your theory is that mulberry has the same basic characteristics as Osage, but it is still considered second string or alternative bow wood. If it were just characteristics, a lot of other woods (mulberry) would not have been overlooked. I think the concept of 1st string woods was created by people who had never even tried most of the woods we use today because they had a plethora of Osage and yew.
You really must consider climate. Some woods just get to dang dry here, while hickory does great. If it don't do well when its super dry it is 3rd string here. Justin
-
Justin, I've only made one mulberry bow but it was less than impressive compared to Osage. Yes, it's similar but not the same. It fretted up on the belly on me and eventually blew into three pieces, and it was sinew backed and well tillered! maybe I just got a bad piece I don't know but I was not impressed.
-
I,like Justin, love Mulberry. It is the best wood that grows in my area that is similer to Osage. We have plenty of hickory, which,depending on the rain or humidity can go from #1 to #4 wood quick. So I don't bother with it without backing with bamboo. and then it's questionble. It's just that I have so much Mulberry that I like trying wood from other places. Justin,The Mulberry We have in Florida I would consider 1 st string. But some I have gotten from other places does not have the density as what grows here.
-
Eddie, I know what you mean. Those around here that get to much water seem to grow fast and are low density.
Ryan, I have gotten some osage that was crap and bad performing also. It was the lightest osage I have ever seen. Justin
-
Thats funny, I have never had good luck with mulberry, I know a lot of guys have. I just can't seem to make a decent from it for some reason. Steve
-
Steve,If you want a good ,dense, Character stave, I'll send you one.
-
The problem with your theory is that mulberry has the same basic characteristics as Osage, but it is still considered second string or alternative bow wood. If it were just characteristics, a lot of other woods (mulberry) would not have been overlooked. I think the concept of 1st string woods was created by people who had never even tried most of the woods we use today because they had a plethora of Osage and yew.
I've been wrong before Justin. Have you read any of the classical archery literature yet? It's very interesting and sheds a lot of light on discussions like these.
"Mulberry, Sassafras, bois d'arc, souther cedar, black locust, black walnut and slippery elm, are valuable woods, in the order named, for making bows..." Maurice Thompson, The Witchery of Archery 1878
"Osage orange, mulberry, locust, black walnut with the sap wood, red cedar, juniper, tan oak, apple wood, ash, eucalyptus, lancewood, washaba, palma brava, elm, birch, and bamboo are among the many woods from which bows have been made." Saxton Pope, Hunting with the Bow and Arrow
J. D.
-
I've been wrong before Justin. Have you read any of the classical archery literature yet? It's very interesting and sheds a lot of light on discussions like these.
"Mulberry, Sassafras, bois d'arc, souther cedar, black locust, black walnut and slippery elm, are valuable woods, in the order named, for making bows..." Maurice Thompson, The Witchery of Archery 1878
"Osage orange, mulberry, locust, black walnut with the sap wood, red cedar, juniper, tan oak, apple wood, ash, eucalyptus, lancewood, washaba, palma brava, elm, birch, and bamboo are among the many woods from which bows have been made." Saxton Pope, Hunting with the Bow and Arrow
J. D.
Yes, I have JD. Other woods are often mentioned. They are mentioned as "woods from which bows have been made." Or other suitable woods, or woods to use if you cannot get osage or yew. That is exactly what this thread is about. Nobody said they werent ever mentioned, just wondering what makes them secondary. Justin
-
Justin,
Just read the quotes again. Mulberry was considered the BEST domestic bow wood (better than Osage) by THE #1 AUTHORITY on bows in America until Saxton Pope. Saxton Pope listed Mulberry next to Osage offering no preference for Osage. Your statement that Mulberry was overlooked gave me the impression that you were ignorant--not just stubborn. :) You also said 'I think the concept of 1st string woods was created by people who had never even tried most of the woods we use today because they had a plethora of Osage and yew.' Unless Saxton Pope and Maurice Thompson misrepresented the facts, your speculation is bankrupt. Man up and admit when your wrong.
J. D.
-
OOP's Im wrong everyone, JD said so. I guess I missunderstood, I was refering to the coloring books my wife got me for Christmas. But one did have a picture of a Native American with a bow. Sorry, Simpleton
-
Don't forget, Thompson and Pope were talking about ELB designs only. They weren't enlightened as to the utility of other designs. Aware of them, but not impressed. In that case, I can see why a lighter mass wood like mulberry might be considered as top-notch. Making a long ELB out of osage, doesn't really make the most out of that wood.
Play nice fellas. You get sand in my eyes and I'm telling the teacher.
-
I think the idea of "second string" woods has been around for a long time, and has changed as new designs became favored. Personally I think you can make a bow out of just about any wood, as long as you design it right. Didn't Baker make a bow out of pine? It really depends on what limitations you put on your definition of "bow".
-
Hey Justin,
You will recall that I wrote you an email not long ago to tell you that you were 'dead right' and I was 'dead wrong' on the subject of bow length. I am human and quite used to being wrong. I am also concerned about the truth of the matter, however. When we talk about history on this board, speculation is clearly welcome but when your speculation is contradicted by the two most influential books on the subject of American bowyery (up to the time of the TBB), I just expect you, myself and others to defer the what has been documented rather than what we imagine to be the case. We are dealing with question of our archery heritage, we should desire to know the truth and honor it.
J. D.
-
Ho boy, someone opened a can worms here. I still think what I said early applies best. Use what ya have and if it will fling a
arrow with enough force to kill the critter than its good bow wood. J.D. as for Pope and Thompson they were prejudiced in thier views
its apparrent that anything other than a ELB was inferior, that theory has been proven wrong many times sense. Thier work is valuable but outdated at this
point in history. I admire what they did for archery but thier views are so far out of date that to me they are irrelevant to a great extent.
They wrote about what they knew best and were quite biased in their opinions, when ya get right down to it I think they were snobbish to say the least.
Use what is available and make the best bow ya can, seems to me this is what the NA's did for thousands of years.
-
I do recall, JD, that you admitted yourself at one point that you have "English Disease."
Dane
-
Use what is available and make the best bow ya can, seems to me this is what the NA's did for thousands of years.
Yes, there were no second string bow woods then. If it put food on the fire, it was first rate. Justin
-
So simple a caveman can understand it eh ;D
-
I think most of us agree that from a mere performance standpoint there is not best wood, just best specimens when used in the proper design. if a bowyer had his own business and his main concern was not breaking bows he might say hickory was the best bow wood. I have tried every wood I can get my hands on and tried real hard to prove that osage didn't have anything on other good woods, after a while the qualities of osage were just undeniable. I can take a heat gun and bend it like no other wood I know in just a matter of minutes. It is relatively easy to work and run a ring on with a spokeshave or rasp or drawknife. Very flexable and you can just bend the living hell out of it. The only draw back to osage is that it is a very heavy wood and easy to overbuild which will slow a bow down a lot and give off some tooth jarring handshock, but thats just up to the bowyer to design it right. Steve
-
If I had to survive off my bow-making and hunting skills, I would rather live near a forest of yew or osage than any other tree I can think of. Fortunately I don't so I can enjoy working with less desirable species to see what I can do with them.
-
Haven't worked with osage or yew yet, I have an osage stave drying so will get a chance to soon. I'm sure they are both
superb bow woods but I also thing most of our opinions are based on the what we read in the various books. Personally
I think alot of what is written gives new bowyers false impressions and discourages them from trying to make a bow. Many
of the books give the impression that anything other than a few select woods is a recipe for disaster therefore their not promoting the art
but hindering it by being prejudiced and close minded about the reality of bow making. With the proper design almost any wood will make a bow.
-
Steve, you are right, Osage is amazing. I have read numerous times that it is a difficult wood for a new bowyer. I don't entirely understand that comment. My limited experience is that it is so durable it is difficult to mess up beyond repair. And yes, it sure bends nice. Justin
-
I can't deny that osage is great wood and tough as nails and I love it, wish there was more of it around here. I've never had the chance to work with yew, so I can't give an informed opinion on that. I will say that you can build a great bow out of almost any reasonably dense and supple wood if it's designed right, and you can also build a horribly inefficient and ghastly-shooting bow from any wood, including osage and yew.
-
I only worked with osage once when I was retillering the Northern Community bow but it was obvious that this was some special wood. I've only made one bow out of yew (bamboo backed). It is super light, very narrow and I can shoot that bow hard for hours at a time and it goes right back to its reflexed profile when unbraced - not even a hint of set. There are not many other wood species that could do that.
-
Tom Brady was a second stringer at Michigan, his alma mater. When he graduated from college he backed up Drew Bledsoe on the New England Patriots for a couple of years. When Bledsoe got hurt Brady took over and won a Superbowl that year. 2 other Superbowls followed. 2 Superbowl mvp's too. MVP of the league this year. Offensive player of the year-this year. Holds the record for TD passes (50). Completed 26 out of 28 passes last game. One man's second stringer is another man's Hall of Famer. Just having some fun. I think the above may have a bow making application or 2 or 3. :) Jawge
-
Tom Brady was a second stringer at Michigan, his alma mater. When he graduated from college he backed up Drew Bledsoe on the New England Patriots for a couple of years. When Bledsoe got hurt Brady took over and won a Superbowl that year. 2 other Superbowls followed. 2 Superbowl mvp's too. MVP of the league this year. Offensive player of the year-this year. Holds the record for TD passes (50). Completed 26 out of 28 passes last game. One man's second stringer is another man's Hall of Famer. Just having some fun. I think the above may have a bow making application or 2 or 3. :) Jawge
;D ;D George Confucius Tsoukalas
-
LOL. More like- George "Confuse us" Tsoukalas. Jawge
-
I think JD would agree with me on this. ;)
It seems as though some of you you are afraid to admit, that yes, some woods are better than others for building bows.....why that is, I'll never understand........ ???
I may be a young fella here but I have probally made more bows out of more different kinds of wood then a lot of you here.
Let's see I've been at it for like 9 years now I think. I've made numerous bows of pignut hickory,shagbark hickory,Hard maple,slippery elm, American elm, hophornbeam,black locust,red oak, white oak,white ash,black cherry, and Osage orange.
I've made a least one bow of yew, mulberry, choke cherry, wild apple, honey locust.....and some others I couldn't identify.
(granted I will admit, I can't be 100% certain of my opinion on this group with only one bow built)
I do feel that I have had enough experience building wooden bows to tell myself that not one of these other woods can do what Osage can do. I can't even begin to understand why some of you that haven't ever even worked with the wood or worked with it very little would, act like you know what its all about. When you've built 50 or 100 Osage bows if you still feel that one of these second string woods is better, then I'll listen. Just because you don't have access to it locally or you don't have any experience with it, that doesn't some how make some another wood just as good or better, thats just stupid....... :P
-
Ryan, I'm right there with you. I've made 2 ELB's out of Yew. And broke 3 flat bows. But all the trading I do for different wood and the Bamboo and staves and other primitive supplies I collect go towards trading or buying more Osage.We have the biggest Mountainman Rendezvous in the US here next week. I go every year just to buy staves of Osage. To me, day in and day out, as an all condition bow wood,weather wise you can't beat it. And something Steve(Badger) said about overbuilding with it. That's not a bad thing if you are making a bow to sell to someone that's not familiar with self bows.
-
Ryan, I dont think anyone is saying some woods arent better than others. I certainly love Osage. Especially for different designs. That is what this whole discusion was about. I think Brian said it best.
Second string woods are anything but osage and yew or woods that traditionally werent used for bows....I think we have all kinda gone past that mentality now.... Brian
We know there are woods that are considered 1st and second string and that is what started the discussion. They are called alternatives. Read Jawge's post, it says it all. Justin
-
The truth is I feel strongly both ways. May be I missed my calling. I shoulda been a politician. Osage is an excellent bow wood. I do like working with it. I do know why all the osagians love it. I just dislike the terms "first string" and "second string" bow woods. I like hickory and other whitewoods too. I just thought that after many bows (close to 200 now-not a bad # for an amateur) and close to 20 years of bow making I could choose my own "first string" woods and my first stringers may not be another's. Guess I was wrong. I have fun with this bow stuff. Now Pats, Celtics and Red Sox. That's what I take seriously. Tom Brad rocks ha? Jawge
-
Tom Brady that is.
-
This past year at the flight shoots I broke my own world record in the broadhead shoot for the third year in a row with an osage bow, a guy came along a few minutes later and beat me with a hickory bow and took my record away. The bow came from a very arid climate in New Mexico. Next year I will dry my osage bow out a bit with a heat gun and try to blow that hickory bow back out of the water. And the year after that someone might come back with a maple bow and beat both of us. truth is I had a whole stack of bows from all kinds of woods that all shot about the same. I usually grab the osage just because I feel a little more confident with it if it rains and the moisture comes up. Steve
-
Jawge, It would be fun to see Tom and Brett go head to head.
-
Not trying to be a smart a-- Jawge but how many of those 200 bows were made of Osage? And what does football have to do with wood property's? ???
-
I think Jawge was trying to say,I may be wrong, but interest in different sports is more important to him or is a fair comparison than trying to compare which wood fits everybodies ,"different" opinions.
-
George, so what wood are we going to get in the draft. ;) Justin
-
I'd wager you could build as fine a bow with many second string woods as with osage or yew. You just have to be mindful of their strengths and weaknesses and design accordingly.
-
What Gordon said, and while species matter I try and cut the branch, or stave which is going to be "special". I've made plenty of fast osage bows and love it, have a yew bow that I treasure, but I can't go out and cut these woods. I can go cut some wood or palm which I will have to get out the book to figure out what it is, and it makes a great bow which is fun, but theres probably 10 trees of it in the country so other than enjoying the bow its hardly anything I can to excited about since I won't see anymore of it..
The local elms, and the ash from over the hill are as fast as any woods i have seen..It may not be a real "ash", but I don't care.
Rich
-
I had just about all of my staves wiped out by powder beatles recently, Years of work and curing (some where almost finished bows >:( )
...The 2 remaining intact staves without holes, where Osage, that must count for something when you classify a wood as first stringer.
A very upset wanna be bowyer here >:( >:( >:( >:(
-
When I first started all I used was Hickory and Ash,because that is what I have plenty of on my
farm,there is Osage around here just not on my place.It will make a fine bow for sure ,as for 1st or 2nd. I don't have an opinion,I will say after several years of working with beginners,once you get
past the growth ring and lay out Osage is much easier for a beginner to turn out a quality bow.In my opinion white wood is a lot harder to tiller and every little mistake on tiller is harder to recover from.I know this will get some going but I think it takes a much better Boyer to turn out a good
bows from white wood than Osage.I think it made me a better Boyer from working with it so much to start with.Don't get me wrong I still like white wood but I love Osage. :)
Pappy
-
I just made a couple of HHB (yes HHB and not HB ;D), and I think they shoot as hard as any osage bow I've made. They may not handle wet weather as well, don't know if a good sealing completely takes care of that problem or not. I love working with osage, and it is probably my favorite. I also enjoy sometimes making bows from other woods to see how well they will perform. For me it is the learning experience I like. I like to see how the different wood grains will turn out when finished well. I guess I like a little variety in my bow makin'. ;)
-
This debate usually reveals a great deal more about the nature of mankind than it does about wood used for bowyery. One contributor in particular comes to mind. Has anybody noticed you can't hardly swing a dead cat over yer head and not hit a global moderator around here?
Ya'll have fun. It was, for the most part, an interesting and informative read.
-
Try moderating the globe single-handed.
And save me the skin off that cat, I've been looking for a good road-kill cat for a nice kids quiver or a Jeremiah Johnson hat.
-
Try moderating the globe single-handed.
And save me the skin off that cat, I've been looking for a good road-kill cat for a nice kids quiver or a Jeremiah Johnson hat.
:D :D :D
Surprising as it seems, there are only about 10 moderators for 1756 members. I don't think anyone was picked as moderator for sitting in a closet and not participating. BTW after you skin the cat for Lennie, Pat really enjoys sweet and sour kitty. ;) Justin
-
I'm good at ducking lots of practice from the wife swinging at me ;D
-
I was wondering what that was that hit me ..................... ;D
-
Where is Pat when we need him,he likes cats. ;D ;D I don't know if that was a good thing
or bad. ???
Pappy
-
Well, I got myself in pretty deep here. :) I was telling DCM in a PM a minute ago that I've always thought I could communicate clearly but on threads like this, I feel like I'm speaking Spanish. I don't feel like I've been saying anything that should be controversial here and I've become the village idiot. ;D Well, the village idiot has one more post to try to show what he's trying to say.
I love our archery heritage. I like the English. I like the Vikings. I like the Egyptians. I like the incredible variety of the Native Americans. I like South America bows. I love teh African elephant bows. I like the golden age American flatbows. I like character bows. I like them all. I love wood, too. I have about 10 species that I have locally and love using. I've posted Cascara, Oceanspray, and Crabapple bows here and said that Crabapple is like Osage, Cascara is like Yew and Oceanspray is unbreakable. I have argued on this site that a good hunting bow can be made out of willow. Two days ago I suggested to a beginner that Silver Maple would be worth trying. I would try it--I've tried worse.
The reason why I jumped on this thread is there seems to be the idea that Osage, Yew and a couple other woods have made the 'first string' because of narrow-mindedness and refusal to be resourceful. Ignorance and narrow-mindedness will always play a part. Prejudice of that kind is a part of life. But, in answer to the beginner's question, I wanted to show that there are qualities on which bow woods are commonly judged. Osage just scores extremely high on most of those judgments. Yew is somewhere there too.
Most of us who have been around a few years have read a lot of literature about wood bows so we have all formed opinions about these things, but we should be fair to our founding fathers. Here are a couple things that come to my mind:
1. The English have always used white woods for bows. Ash and Elm were considered quality bow woods. Hickory-backed Yew was said by many to have made the fastest bows. Yew was a first choice but not just Yew--good Yew. There is bad Yew growing all over England that bowyers don't bother to glance at. Bad Yew is bad wood--they favored high altitude 'holy grail' Yew that grew 150 rpi.
2. The Thompsons didn't have the TBB to fall back on but they did learn to adapt their bows to different kinds of woods. They never made flatbows (from what I can tell) but they did make their bows longer to compensate for the lower elasticity of non-yew staves. They also bought several bows from England which flight-tested better than any of their personal bows so they decided that English bows were better.
3. Saxton Pope was a tester. He tested everything just like Baker does. He tested English designs side-by-side with every Native American bow he could get his hands on. The testing criteria was flight shooting. The English design out shot all the other NA bows for distance and he recorded this for posterity. We all know this, so why do we act like Pope just stubbornly chose ELB's without doing research? It would be interesting to see how the course of American archery would have been changed if a couple top-notch NA bows had made it into his testing and beaten or seriously challenged the English designs. Saxton Pope's research is long-outdated and none of us believe that the English longbow will beat every other design, but there was research done and I think Pope did make some very positive contributions that we can be thankful for.
4. The authors of the bowyer's bibles have advanced understanding of bow design an incredible amount. If it weren't for reading those books, my curve for learning how to adapt softer, weaker woods would have been so slow I would have died before I made a good bitter cherry bow. :P But even the authors of the bowyer's bible books clearly refer to Osage, Yew, Lemonwood (and maybe a couple others?) as 'first string woods.'
-Tim Baker calls Yew, Osage, and Lemonwood, the 'strongest and most elastic woods.'
-Steve prefers Yew for Native American and English replicas he builds.
-Paul Comstock suggests that people who are building one hunting bow should use Osage.
-Strunk used to have a 4' x 40' pile of Yew in his back yard that he has used up. He still prefers Yew when he can get his hands on it.
-Harcastle openly admits that he prefers Osage over all other woods.
-Jim Hamm openly admits to being obsessed with Osage and doesn't use much else.
-The books are printed by 'Bois d'Arc Press.' ;)
I can't find a single place in which an author of the Bowyer's Bibles say that all woods are equal. They say you should use the best wood you can get and if that's a second-string wood--NO PROBLEM. Authors like Comstock have shown that great bows can easily be built from virtually any wood if the design is adapted to the wood, but even Tim Baker says that some woods have more 'cast per pound' than others.
Perhaps there is a fear that if we put Osage, or Yew up on a pedestal beginners will quit because they can't afford a $100-200 stave. I think it's a legitimate concern. We should be encouraging experimentation and publishing our findings. But when we point a beginner to the woods we should be telling them to look for woods that possess certain qualities. I don't think anyone would disagree with me on this?? Yew, Osage have a lot of these qualities and ages of experimentation have made them very popular among bowyers. In certain places, Hickory might be the best wood--period. I totally understand that.
J. D.
-
I don't think anyone questions the contributions made by all these folks. But I do think some of thier obsession with Osage in particular
does scare away budding bowyers. Especially those that live in areas that it doesn't grow. I personally like Paul Comstocks attitude that white wood
does make a good bow. The high price for a stave of osage is beyond most peoples reach other than an occasioal purchase, buying osage just isn't practical
unless you have lots of money(not me) or are selling the bows and can pass on the cost(again not me). Trading is an option to aquire osage but once again
most new folks don't have any trade goods except perhaps white wood staves, how many folks that you know will trade even up white wood for osage??
Thier are a few but most won't do it even when they are sitting on a truck load of osage. As to the silver maple question, his other choice was pecan
and of the two woods he is most likely to achieve success with the pecan, Silver maple is so weak I felt that would kead to failure and discouragement.
Perhaps a more experienced bowyer could get a functional bow from silver maple but I think its asking a bit much from a new guy.
One other thing it seems that a few feathers were ruffled by this whole thread and that shouldn't be the case were all adults here and its just people expressing their own opinion, whether its a member or a moderator, I think that is the purpose of this forum to freely exchange ideas and share our successes and failures. There is no need for anyone to get upset over the question of First string or second string woods, kinda silly isn't it???
-
.................Hahahaha ! DCM--------- what he said ! hahahaha ! Ya hit nail square on head David ! How refreshing ! ;D.....bob
-
;D and here I thought that second string wood meant that you broke a bow string and needed to put on a second string because the first wasnt strong enough for the wood. LOL ;) :D ;D
Tim
-
One man's second stringer is another man's Hall of Famer.
Excellent point.
-
Dana, good post. I love osage but it is less than about 10% of the bows I make. Maple, and elm are both two of my favorites. I have always said if I could only have one bow wood it would be elm. Steve
-
so which kind of elm would work best for a bow ,chinese elm,dutch elm etc.
just curious i have acces to some elm near where i live
Tim
-
J. D. I was thinking about some of your exchanges with Justin when I wrote that this morning. When you read the thread straight through, at least when I did, what becomes most obvious is the passion that underlies the messages. This relates back to the nature of mankind. I apologize for singling you out, even without naming you. We all have some passion for this craft, and our own investments in it, and I know too well how hot that passion sometimes burns, and how quickly it can wane. I didn't mean to be critical of you, don't consider the observation to be critical even. Passion, generally, is a good thing. Rather that it exemplifies my point. Humans are a passionate lot, and this topic seems to stir deep.
Fact is, IMHO, it's a trick question (what's the better bow wood). The only answer is "it depends." And appeal to authority, or antiquity, doesn't expand our understanding any more than ignoring the lessons from antiquity or from authorities.
I usually use osage, because I'm butt deep in it, and usually the knarly, misshapen crap. But I sure as hell wouldn't spend $200 on a stave, even $20, if I had other timber readily at hand. I swear I think theres as much variation across specimens as there is across species in many cases.
-
I think what we have here is an inappropriate set of terms. I think George was headed down the right road, so Ill use another football analogy. Rather than first or second string, maybe we should refer to them as different positions on the team. When was the last time a quarterback won the Super Bowl without any teammates? All of the positions are different, not everyone can be or wants to be the quarterback. But without a good offensive line and a couple of running backs or receivers, even the best QB is going nowhere. Woods fill different positions. Climate price and bow style determine the best wood. Some of us are on a team with a salary cap right Dana. And even Tom Brady needs his punters help once in a while. ;)
DCM, You bring up another interesting question. I wonder how much bad osage is out there. I know Pappy spends a lot of time deciding which osage to cut. Watching grain and bends and whatever else he thinks defines a good tree. If we went through indiscriminately cutting osage like hickory or some white woods, we might never get a bow. Justin
-
Hey, Everyone
Whoa, just read the whole thread... Wow some of you guys sure got worked up.
J.D., your last post was right on. Amen. Nuf said.
For all you guys who complain about getting wood... I have to order (and buy) ALL my wood. Up here in North -Western Canada, there is pretty much NO native bow wood. Lots of evergreens (no yew), and soft wood, like poplar. No osgae, no ash, no hickory. So, stop your bitchin'.
Good osage and yew are the best woods for making bows. White woods are a close second. Let's move on.
-
Justin, there is a lot of bad osage out there, there aint no bow wood worse than bad osage! Steve
-
o.k so I'm like pretty new to all of this,but in my humble opinion i think any wood you can make a working bow out of is a good bow wood and anything that you cant make a working bow out of would be considered second string(a.k.a. fire wood) wood.being new to this,andnot having access to the so called best bow woods like yew,and Osage that it why and how i developed my opinion,and like i said this is my humble opinion. thank you.
Tim
-
JD, I will take the mantle of village idiot from you. There. That must be a tremendous relief for you.
Actually, I had that hat on my head all along.
Keep in mind the TBB's were written many years ago.
Mullet, you are absolutely correct. I am amazed at why a person's wood choice engenders so much feeling.
Ryan, not sure. Probably 6-8 osage bows and a couple of yews. They are both excellent woods. I don't know how many times I've said that. I have a good dozen total yew and osage staves waiting for the dknife. I may make myself one osage bow a year usually. Several whitewood bows. I go in phases. I seem to be in a hickory phase now. I don't like ash though.
If I like whitewood bows why is that a concern? For the record, I've seen some pretty clunky osage bows made by some pretty excellent osage bowyers.
I may draft osage for my next project. Depends on what I want to do
If I were starting a team I'd take Brady.
-
JD, I will take the mantle of village idiot from you.
I'm naked without that mantle Jawge. Give it back. ;D
DCM, I'm an existentialist. Passion is what we do. ;)
J. D.
-
Well I didn't take the time to read all this but I thought I'd add my two cents.
I've come to conclusion I have never had a good piece of sage or ash (did I just say that).All this time that I've seen those great lookin yellow wood bows I always thought that some of you were pretty good,but now I know - it was just the wood ;D
-
Thanks Jawge, Makes me feel good, coming from you. I think my first post kinda insinuated this thread was going to start beating a bunch of dead horses.
-
I've been around the block on this a time or 2, Mullett. That's ok; this is apparently a new issue for some. Jawge
-
Anyone want to trade some nice osage staves for vine maple? ;D
-
:D :D :D :D ;) Nope
-
Gordon I've said before, or at least thought it (does that count), I'd happily trade you osage for one of those hats you wear. I was serious. If you'll email me your snail mail address, I'll get you a piece out for no other reason than to see what you will make from it.
dcm4@comcast.net
-
I'd like to try vine maple Gordon. I will take you up on that. I cut my own osage, I drove to the other side of the statre to do it but I got a whole truck load, it was well worth it. It just depends on how bad you wan't it, it don't have to cost you a arm and a leg. And for the record I have never seen "bad osage" Some tree's are definetly better than others but I've never cut any bad osage.
Jawge, the reason I ask is I seem to remember you posting a osage bow not all that long ago that you said was your first ever piece.
Jd, I agree with your last post 100%, Thats kind of what I was trying to say but you said it better.
Dcm, You had me rolling on that one.....lol. Its hard to comunicate feelings while typing....
-
Ryan, no I made my first osage about 8 years ago. Jawge
-
I'd like to try vine maple Gordon. I will take you up on that. I cut my own osage, I drove to the other side of the statre to do it but I got a whole truck load, it was well worth it. It just depends on how bad you wan't it, it don't have to cost you a arm and a leg. And for the record I have never seen "bad osage" Some tree's are definetly better than others but I've never cut any bad osage.
For the record: I've cut some terrible Yew. I roughed out a nice looking stave once that ran about 100 RPI and set it on my drying rack. It volunteered 8" of deflex before I got another chance to work it. ;D ;D I still have it and I'd be glad to trade it for a good, straight piece of cardboard.
Ryan,
Thanks for the encouragement. I was just about to set my shop on fire. :D Ha, ha. I'll trade Yew some Yew for Osage. Could you match 3 clean billets?
J. D.
-
Ryan, you may not have much problem with osage in your state, I have had very bad osage come from nebraska, kansas, and idaho. Some of the best i ever had came from Missouri, Illinois and indiana. I usually have good luck comming from any of the southern states. If you ever get any of it you will know it right off the bat. The spring growth will be thicker than the summer growth, Steve
-
JD, I have mostly full length stave's. It all depends on your definition of clean......If you mean straight as a arrow and knot free probally knot....(pun intended)
Steve, now that I think about it I did cut one tree that had black checks running through the wood and that stuff wasn't really usable but thats from wind I think.....
-
David,
If I had another hat to send you I would. I can only get the real thing when I go to Austria - which isn't often. If you are willing to part with a stave I'm game - I'll do my level best to make you proud :)
Ryan,
I'm up for a trade - I've got a nice stave I can send you. I'd love to see what you can do with it.l
-
I'm about 175 miles southeast of Ryan in Central PA, and I have run afoul of major league bad osage. I cut a couple sectios off a 34" diameter specimen that blew down in a storm. 147 growth rings. I saw think growth rings overall and thought that was good, but it was 6 years ago, early in my bow career. Worked my butt of working it up. Had thick, fluffy white early growth layer in each ring and turned out to be light as heck. More lige red oak in SG probably. Almost useless for a full sized flatbow, although I have found some uses for it. Imagine my dissappointment
Dave
-
Mims whats the matter, losing your hair? My brother got a nice Austrian hat from ebay, he sports it when he goes to the Oktoberfest celebrations at the local wineries. If you go all out and procure some lederhosen to go with, be sure and post some pics. I suspect you'd be standing out pretty bad in Memphis. Might do the redneck version, cutoff bibs and a NASCAR ball cap. Play it safe.
Ryan I've seen those dark cracks in a few logs, sometimes you still get staves and sometimes its pretty much useless. And there's always the stuff with a real poor spring/summer ratio, we see a fair amount of poor ratio wood around here.
-
Most of what I get has spring growth issues also....usually just on one side of a tree limb but the other side will be good....Brian
-
We might have a longer or wetter spring here in MO, that causes more growth early.
And the thin ringed side is typically the tension wood, supposedly the better stuff. A real conundrum, or Koanundrum in your case.
-
Lol...Lennie, you playin hooky today to?.....Brian
-
Nope I'm at work. I rarely surf at home.
-
Lennie,
No, I still got ma hare. 'An a hat offen eBay don't hardly meet the muster either. Cuz my purpose is so that when knuckleheads such as yerself question my appearance, I can wax poetical about this extrodinarily gifted Austrian fellar I know up in Oreegon. Take notice I ain't axed nobody in Missery about no hats, no unintended slights to some of the danged fine bowyers from outside of Hannibal. Ain't you got some concrete to test boy.
-
Dave, I live right next to a place called Alpine village, autrians, germans etc hang out there. I will check their shops for a hat for you, Steve
-
Steve,I need your address
-
Ok. I don't think that I've posted on this topic yet even though its been hashed and rehashed. Since I feel comfortable that I'm around friends and colleagues of like mind I'd like offer my two cents worth, albeit inexperienced that it is. You know what they say about people and opinions and how like portion of our anatomy everyones got one. So heres mine.
Since I first became cognisant of wood bows (1yr ago) and decided that I wanted to learn to make my own (6mths ago) I have tried to read as much literature on bow making as I could get my hands on. The common theme I have noticed is that all the most well respected bowyers of our time at least ( modern primitive archery) hold Osage in very high esteem. I don't usually hear of anyone saying anything bad about it other than if you have to buy it its somewhat cost prohibitive. I can understand that although for right now I don't have that problem because I have a nice stash in the shed curing as we speak. The other day as I was gazing fondly at a freshly debarked Osage stave leaning against the wall and was trying to visualize the bow that would be fashioned from it, I realized that I have a certain reverence for it. I am willing to break as many board bows as I need to in order to learn well enough to then fashion a bow that will last for life. That is not to say that I am not putting as much into the board bows or that I am rushing their creation, its just that I think we can all agree that premium Osage has great value to those of us into Bowery. I also asked myself this question: If I could only have one wood bow to last me for the rest of my life, and my life depended on its performing year after year, what wood would it be? Well my answer is a hands down no brainer...Osage. I don't believe that anyone can doubt its durability and if you have ever seen a 100yr old Osage fence post, it is still standing after other woods have already gone by the wayside. When you consider how it apparently is not negatively effected by temperature and humidity changes and is tough enough that if you needed to use it to beat down an enemy combatant at close range I would have no concern about damaging it. Having said all that.... I am very interested in trying other woods as well. I think "wood is good" and I have come to understand that proper design is essential to great performance so I will try and focus my attention on just getting better and make whatever bow I'm working on the best that it can be. I don't think I would classify myself as an Osage snob because I do love the beauty and diversity of the other woods but when push comes to shove and I get one shot at a bow wood for the rest of my life, my choice is Osage. Danny
-
Steve,
Thanks, but no. I got a fancy for an Austrian hat from a particular Austrian, to mark my having passed his way, and his mine.
I have the most misshapen stave leaning against the door of my shop I roughed up for you last year. When I rummage my pile for Gordon I'll keep you in mind for a care package as well. Still haven't found just the right billet for a cue blank. Time does get away from a body, don't it.