Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Chadwick on December 16, 2014, 02:21:42 pm
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I "won" an eBay auction for a half-log of vine maple, decided to try and split it to get more than one stave. Description said "proper cutting will produce several staves, has been air-dried 3 years". Maybe I should have cut it. It split out to one propeller. 90* twist in 60". AND it's wet wood.
BUY FROM PA ADVERTISERS
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Pay for shipping id send you a new one :D
Im about 50/50 in my luck with splitting VM.
I just use a hatchet now
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I'm glad I split it.. Too many grain violations if I had just cut it into bow-shaped blanks from the log.
I've made several VM bows, this 'stave' wasn't really bow wood.
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sounds like it will straighten and make a nice sinew bow,,
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Many gnarly pieces of wood can be wrestled with, heated and backed until they make a serviceable bow. That means they shouldn't have been sold as bow wood in the first place.
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Pay for shipping id send you a new one :D
Wizard, I give you two big thumbs up for this.
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Where's my manners...
Wizardgoat, that was a wonderful offer!
Of course, now that I've got this propeller stave, I'll be making it into a bow. It's just not what I was expecting.
You guys are a great community.
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ya no worries chad. vine maple grows everywhere here, probably the most abundant white wood in the area, and a post office a couple blocks away.
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did the stave come from graham,washington...wizard is right to use a hatchet..its the only thing i use or if i had a bandsaw handy..john
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You guys are great.
Technically, I was using a hatchet. I was pounding on it with my sledge. Not a quality hatchet, mind you! More like a wedge with a handle.
In any case, I trimmed it down and now I'm leaving it to dry out some more. I'll revisit it after the holidays.
Thanks!
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i ALWAYS bandsaw vm. separate the tension side from the compression side. splitting usually ends up in a twisted stave...
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I cut the log in several passes with a circular saw, setting it deeper with each pass and then split with a maul and wedges.this way I can pick the staves I want and avoid what I don't want. Chauk line works great!
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I have been sawing vine maple for years, no reason to split it in my opinion. If you think about it.....if you have ever made a limb bow you most likely used twisted wood, as you don't split it. I am glad more people are figuring this out with vine maple, and to some degree this holds true with other woods as well....like Yew. :)
Sawing verses splitting has always been a subject of debate.....if you remember what Tim Baker said in "kerfing" logs and letting them dry then you can split...are they twisted? ??? just a thought. :)
VMB
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Sawing verses splitting has always been a subject of debate.....if you remember what Tim Baker said in "kerfing" logs and letting them dry then you can split...are they twisted? ??? just a thought. :)
VMB
I know you are already working on testing this theory. Be sure to post results.
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I'm in the same camp as Bryce and VMB - I always "split" vine maple staves using a band saw. If you try to split them half the time they will twist.
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I'm in the same camp as Bryce and VMB - I always "split" vine maple staves using a band saw. If you try to split them half the time they will twist.
Same would hold true for hazlenut, osoberry, ocean spray, and yew.
Jw, unless I am not understanding you.....I just posted my results. Yes, there are exceptions to this, and yes you better know your woods, and be able to read them......but here this works, and this is the reason the seller said "SAW" not split. Isn't that proof enough? and you have several guys from the west coast saying the same thing. ;)
VMB
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eBay's a dangerous place to spend money on staves. A lot of the sellers who put staves up for auction don't make bows. It's not that they want to cheat people, it's just that they aren't in a good position to know what constitutes a good bow stave...
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I don't like it, but it looks like I was wrong. I made an assumption based on how I usually proceed. I suppose it's good that once I figure out how to straighten the stave I have left, I can scrape edges with a blade and not worry about gouging through the limb.
I'll use saw and sander on my next VM stave. I've been lucky enough to find yew, ocean spray, and hazelnut which split straight, not to mention various white woods, osage, and mulberry.
Good advice, Good PMs, always trying to learn more.
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I don't like it, but it looks like I was wrong. I made an assumption based on how I usually proceed. I suppose it's good that once I figure out how to straighten the stave I have left, I can scrape edges with a blade and not worry about gouging through the limb.
I'll use saw and sander on my next VM stave. I've been lucky enough to find yew, ocean spray, and hazelnut which split straight, not to mention various white woods, osage, and mulberry.
Good advice, Good PMs, always trying to learn more.
There is nothing wrong with splitting, and you can continue to do it with good success, it's just not always the only way to go. If you are buying staves from a seller ALWAYS follow their suggestions....good luck! Still think you can get a bow from that piece in your pic, but it will take some work. Why did you buy if you have access to it yourself? Just curious?
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I took a true 180 degrees out of an HHB stave, you can easily do it w VM.
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I'm in the same camp as Bryce and VMB - I always "split" vine maple staves using a band saw. If you try to split them half the time they will twist.
Jw, unless I am not understanding you.....I just posted my results. Yes, there are exceptions to this, and yes you better know your woods, and be able to read them......but here this works, and this is the reason the seller said "SAW" not split. Isn't that proof enough? and you have several guys from the west coast saying the same thing. ;)
VMB
It sounded like you were suggesting someone test Baker's claims. I was inferring that you were in a good position to prove Baker's point. You certainly have more access to vine maple than the average bear, being in the heart of that country.
Stray thought: I don't think I have ever heard someone say anything bad about v.m. Another 6 months or so of curing and I have a 2 years of curing with mine. One year in the round, one year sawn in half.
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I'm in the same camp as Bryce and VMB - I always "split" vine maple staves using a band saw. If you try to split them half the time they will twist.
Jw, unless I am not understanding you.....I just posted my results. Yes, there are exceptions to this, and yes you better know your woods, and be able to read them......but here this works, and this is the reason the seller said "SAW" not split. Isn't that proof enough? and you have several guys from the west coast saying the same thing. ;)
VMB
It sounded like you were suggesting someone test Baker's claims. I was inferring that you were in a good position to prove Baker's point. You certainly have more access to vine maple than the average bear, being in the heart of that country.
Stray thought: I don't think I have ever heard someone say anything bad about v.m. Another 6 months or so of curing and I have a 2 years of curing with mine. One year in the round, one year sawn in half.
Vine maple can be dried at room, or next to a stove in a month easy. Limb bows 2 inches or less can be dried whole, so can larger logs. I prefer to saw the larger logs in half sticker them, and wait 4-6 months depending of the time of yr....summer shorter winter longer dry times. I try to accomadate others I deal with with wood that is 6-12 months in drying time. Heck I have some vine maple that is over 10 yrs in a drying state.
Limb bows I remove just enough of the belly so that the wood can breath, but don't remove too much or you risk a lot of movement. Vine maple from my expirience will move little if dried in a thick enough state, but it is a balance between thickness, and time curing. :)
Forgot...yes, I agree with Tim, and was trying to say when you kerf, you are NOT following the grain. This is not much different than ignoring the grain in vine maple. If a large log to the eye "looks straight" unless you have tons of expirience following the bark....you really don't know where the true grain runs.
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VMB,
I wonder if you find this true: That with VM or OS, especially, you have to find a tree that is growing vertically or plumb, even if it might arc or droop? But that it cannot be growing up and out AND sideways?
I find that those staves that come from "leaning" trees are the ones that twist. Even if the tree grows up plumb for a few feet and then lean over sideways, its that sidewaysness where the twist will come from.
It can be seen in the center/pith. The center should be fairly consistent throughout the stave, even though it might move from top to bottom with a stave/tree that grows up and arcs over. If the tree leans then the pith will move to the side as it nears the tip.??
I just cut a big OS, 76" x 1.75, took it home, debarked and ran it through the bandsaw right down what I thought was the center. When I looked inside the pith was nearly split in two perfectly. That stave has been speed drying for two weeks now and I can put those two halves together today and there is no twist. But I had to cut a tree that was growing up and over as plumb to earth as possible.
What think?
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I obviously haven't done as much vine maple as VMB but I've had a little more luck with vertical growing VM than anything that bends or grows at an angle. On the other hand, I have a stave that grew in r/d that hasn't twisted to the point of needing correction.
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VMB,
I wonder if you find this true: That with VM or OS, especially, you have to find a tree that is growing vertically or plumb, even if it might arc or droop? But that it cannot be growing up and out AND sideways?
I find that those staves that come from "leaning" trees are the ones that twist. Even if the tree grows up plumb for a few feet and then lean over sideways, its that sidewaysness where the twist will come from.
It can be seen in the center/pith. The center should be fairly consistent throughout the stave, even though it might move from top to bottom with a stave/tree that grows up and arcs over. If the tree leans then the pith will move to the side as it nears the tip.??
I just cut a big OS, 76" x 1.75, took it home, debarked and ran it through the bandsaw right down what I thought was the center. When I looked inside the pith was nearly split in two perfectly. That stave has been speed drying for two weeks now and I can put those two halves together today and there is no twist. But I had to cut a tree that was growing up and over as plumb to earth as possible.
What think?
Although I think I understand what you are saying, and I have seen that wood, I don't target it, and most the the vine I cut stands almost straight up. I also look for the darkest areas I can find, the reason is less branching, less pin knots, and a lot of times tighter ringed staves. Here is a pic of me sizing some up...
To the OS, you sure there was not a dip in the limb, or a branch cluster that did not throw the pith off? I have seen very, very few staves here that does not have pin knots in the stave. That branch cluster on some staves I have cut the piths were off. My guess is that when the branch was smaller it broke, and the branch religned itself slightly lower because the cadbium layer shifted the pith during regrowth...seen this twice, kinda a bummer.
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Thanks for the pic, VMB. That does not look like the VM I have around me. That looks like hazel. I can see why you don't have my dilemma, because those staves are perfect. I'll take a pic tomorrow of a big VM tree next to me. You'll see all kinds of disjointed and changing directions, every foot or so.
But with VM, Hazel, or OS, it all grows up and droops over to some degree. Sometimes I want the straight trunk, and sometimes I want the curved (drooping) section.