Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: Yeomanbowman on January 08, 2015, 05:14:03 pm
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This is something that Alistair Aston and I have been working on for a while and we are very excited about it. We think it could be something that may change the way we think about the 'mean' wood warbow and we'd be very interested in your thoughts.
http://warbowwales.com/#/articles/4559117041
Please click on the article 'Bow X1-3 - The last 'mean' wood warbow?'
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Very interesting paper, and fantastic that the Mary Rose is still throwing up surprises.
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Excellent paper. I've just skim read it for now. I'll study it further.
I have no doubt that Elm makes a serviceable warbow and I'm currently working on a Hazel one.
It does seem odd that all the other MR bows are Yew, but maybe there was just one chest of meanewood bows.
Thanks for posting.
Del
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Thanks for posting. I want to build a replica of Bow X1-3 now.
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Thanks for posting. I want to build a replica of Bow X1-3 now.
Hi,
Good luck with the build and keep us updated, as I would really like to see how it comes out. Depending on the Elm, we found that the region of a little over 100# @ 30 could be expected with the shorter version, though the 141# @ 30 approximation needed around 1mm of the centre depth, otherwise it would have been an extremely challenging to draw at the bow length!
All the best,
Alistair
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Why does the article mention Witch Hazel as if it was a separate type of wood?
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Witch hazel is a different tree to a 'standard' hazel.
Witch hazel is called - Hamamelis virginiana
Hazel is called - Corylus avellana
Two different trees. Good luck trying to find a witch hazel stave! On the other hand hazel grows so straight it's almost made for bows.
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I know all that but Witch Hazel is an North American species.
There is supposed to be some thought that Witch Hazel was named after the Wych Elm because of the young shoots being similar.
From the 100% accurate source of Wikipedia ;):
The name Witch in witch-hazel has its origins in Middle English wiche, from the Old English wice, meaning "pliant" or "bendable".[6] "Witch hazel" was used in England as a synonym for Wych Elm, Ulmus glabra;[7] American colonists simply extended the familiar name to the new shrub.[citation needed
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I may have missed it but what length is the longer bow that you made please?
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I may have missed it but what length is the longer bow that you made please?
Hi,
Assuming that the base of a horn nock would be around 13mm; projecting from the current 16mm bow tips, one could expect and additional 50-70mm of length on each limb prior to horning.
Alistair
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Thank you. I've just had permission to cut a beautiful bit of elm so it would be good to use half of it to make a bow to these dimensions.
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Great topic, I for one love it when something 'new' comes to light, especially when it challenges old ideas.
Looking at the photos of the two tips, it seems like one has definitely been cut since being recovered but I'm not so sure about the other one?
It seems to have the same colouring and maybe that shamfered face is where a horn reinforcement was glued in place?
I know that sounds a bit radical but it would explain the lack of string nocks and the horn glued in this way with a hide glue would have come loose very quickly when immersed in water, the flat surface would then discolour along with the rest of the limb!
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Lack of string nocks doesn't actually mean much! I've recently learned about a way of stringing bows (even bows of around 90#) without any nocks at all thanks to a very skilled bowyer from Finland.
I would imagine weights well over 100# would be possible using that technique as well. The Balinderry Bow didn't have nocks and a replica made of it came out around 140#, and I believe the Hedeby bow had only lower nocks cut but not the upper limb, plus of course the Otzi bow (although opinion is still divided on whether it was finished or not.)
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Hi Will
Don't be so secretive, how is it done?
The only way I could think of is using a' rolling hitch' which can allow for a sideways pulling action on a cylindrical object. Even if it held, how could you tie it while holding it in a brace position and how could you untie it in order to un-brace it.
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Sorry, wasn't trying to be secretive! It's simply a pair of wraps on each end, made of bowstring material or leather etc that are tied around the bow tip then soaked in glue. The wraps are quite close to the ends of the bow, and the string loop just goes over the tip itself when bracing, to rest against the wraps. It means that when unstringing the loops don't slip down the bow limb, but are lifted over the tip and off the bow completely.
I have zero experience doing it myself but will be experimenting with it. The guy who did it used it on a 90# yew bow with no problems, and it would seem that it's a popular method in other cultures.
I suppose there may be a limit in its use, both in the force against the glued wrap at higher poundage and the method of stringing as you can't use a stringer with it. The latter can be avoided however with various stringing methods such as bracing against something solid or even just the step through method which I've seen used on bows over 140#.
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Just finished a replica myself and have a few interesting observations.
I started with the premise that the tip with the shamfered face is the original tip and made both my tips the same.
I went for an overall length of 1850mm, which assumes 140mm has been cut off the original.
My stave was Elm instead of Wytch Elm and the weight came in at 725 grams and pulls 80lbs at 30inches
This is a lot lighter than the replicas Alistair and Jeremy made with Wytch Elm.
What I found really interesting is that I don't need any nocks! The linen string that I made has a bowyers knot on the lower limb and a running loop on the upper limb and they tighten up nicely under tension!
I started with a binding around the place where the shamfer ends and expected the loops to slip down onto it but to my surprise they didn't move even after shooting many arrows, so I just took them off.
The shamfer is about 30mm so there is plenty of room to use a stringer as well.
The string is starting to leave a slight indentation in the wood but nothing to get worried about at this stage.
Even though this bow is only 80lbs it is really fast and seems to pack a real punch!
I'll post some pics soon.
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That's really interesting. I can't wait to see how the tiller came out when you used the dimensions, or close to. When the original was inspected there was no trace of any crushing at the tips so you experiment is very useful as it eliminates a possible scenario, being that the bow is complete and was shot in the method you have used. It is possible that this is how it was strung and the bow was never shot. If you have any data on the arrows you were using and the distances, that would be very interesting too.
Jeremy
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Pics of your bow would be awesome!
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Yes , I suppose this could be a stringing method and the bow found was hardly used!
It seems most of the bows from the' Mary Rose' would appear to be unused due to the lack of wear at the arrow pass.
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Photos of replica!
(http://i61.tinypic.com/2q84wzl.jpg)
(http://i62.tinypic.com/30kxamh.jpg)
(http://i58.tinypic.com/244y8a0.jpg)
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And more
(http://i58.tinypic.com/168z8y9.jpg)
(http://i60.tinypic.com/2wnsoc5.jpg)
(http://i61.tinypic.com/2ntyzac.jpg)
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(http://i58.tinypic.com/jfxemg.jpg)
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That full draw shape looks really good, it respects the shape of the stave nicely.
Del
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That's a really nice character bow and quite challenging to tiller so well too. A great experiment :)
Brian's having a stave sale at our next shoot if you want to try some wych elm. It would add about 20lbs to the draw i'd estimate.
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Thanks Del and Jeremy
It amazes me how forgiving Elm is as a bow wood. I didn't even heat treat this bow and some areas of the limbs are working very hard to achieve a reasonable tiller with no hint of crystaling!
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Sorry, I thought you were UK based for some reason. Good luck with the new project.
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Several years ago I made a 154# @ 32" 72" long osage Elb syle. The bow took no set but was doggy. Looking back I suspect high mositure as it was much thicker than I thought it should have been.
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I live not far from Leeds and have visited the Royal armouries quite a few times, I assume this is the bow that they have on display in the main hall? I always wondered if the bow was Yew or not and the cross section of the stave, thanks for shedding light on this, was an interesting and enlightening read! :)
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Hi Dobson,
I have not seen the bow since it went up to Leeds but the really distinctive features are the flat belly, crowned back and truncated ends. If it has these, it's your man!
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Just thought I'd give an update on the performance of the 'shamfered face' nock idea.
I've made 3 Elm bows with this type of nock and string setup and all is going great after extensive shooting.
The initial indentation of the string on the tips is only minor and does not get worse over time!
The more I look at the close up photo of the 2 tips of X1-3, the more I'm convinced that the shamfered end is original
and I believe my experimentation shows that this was the method of self nocking used on this bow and perhaps other 'Meanewood' bows of the period.
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Very interesting results. I've had good success with self nocking on heavy ash and elm bows but this is new. Thanks for posting.
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Hi,
Just an update.
If you click on the following link you will see Joe Gibbs shooting the X1-3 Approximation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9HbAaDanNQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9HbAaDanNQ)
Cheers,
Alistair
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This is for you JNystrom
Not much point going over old ground again.
My haul of Hawthorn is ready for use, so I'll be making some X1-3's from this excellent bow wood!
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Btw, how many bows were recovered From the "Mary Rose", and what styles/types were they? Apparently, there were several different types! Excellent read, so far! Post more, suck us into the vortex! Thanks!
Hawkdancer
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I think it was about 130 Yew bows but it was reported that about 10 bows were recovered about 100 years earlier by the Deane brothers.
Two of these are at The Royal Armouries London (both Yew) and one other (X1-3) an Elm bow is at the Royal Armouries Leeds.
I think its fair to say there is not much difference between the Yew bows in design but they are certainly not uniform.
Lengths range from about 1800mm - 2110mm. Estimated draw weights from 80lbs - 180lbs. Profiles vary between near circular to D shaped.
Bow X1-3 however is nothing like the Yew bows
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Cool, keep posting whitewood bows!
Actually i had not read this thread. There was some solid elm bow.
1800-1900mm sounds good for elm warbows at 30" draw.