Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Flight Bows => Topic started by: Badger on February 10, 2015, 03:23:07 pm
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Getting the most out of arrows seems to be a bigger challenge than making a fast bow when it comes to regular flight shooting. This is an area that seems to baffle me more than anything. I thought I would just lay out a bunch of scenarios and try to figure out the best way to deal with them.
Scenario: You have 4 arrows, they all have the same fletches. Arrow 1. 150 grains, 280 fps 150 grains 260 fps
2. 200 grains 250 fps 200 grains 235 fps
3. 250 grains 225 fps 250 grains 220 fps
4. 300 grains 210 fps 300 grains 210 fps
I just answered my own question when I layed these two bows out side by side. The slightly slower bow on the right outshoots the faster bow on the left. Obvious reason is arrow flight. Bow one is a regular flite recurve bow, while bow 2 is an r/d longbow. Our goal right now is 400 yards with a 50# bow. This was done in the 1930's and 1940's I understand but my generation has not beeen able to repeat it yet. It is very possible that in those years a lot more arrows were being cast in a lot more competitions so that one great arrow would have much better odds of surfacing more often. A lot more guys were building flite bows instead of shooting longbows in a flite class as well. These little flight bows will shine with the light arrows. Finding out how to tune those very light arrows to your bow and then getting that light arrow to fly well is the big challenge. Allen Case seems to have a good grip on it. But I am thinking that simply shooting my heavier arrows because they are performing better is kind of a cop out if I am not going all out. We know from history that 150 grain arrows can fly, we just have to figure out how to do it.
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They also shot shorter "longbows" over 400 yards as well.
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BTW Are bamboo/cane or reed arrows allowed in flight shooting?
They should be.
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Yes they are. It was a fight to get them allowed in the ELB class, but we one out in the end.
Alan gave me a stiff spined, bamboo flight arrow to try. It overshot the range into the marsh, and I never found it. I seated in close for an exploded arrow etc. and found nothing. The marsh was at 400 yards. The bow was a 43.5 pound hickory self bow. The best I did with other arrows, was 350 yards in competition, and around 367 in practice. Alan makes a great arrow.
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Reading Klopsteg's and other researches on Osmanian flightarchery, the arrows are about 200grs., depending on their length from 23" - 251/2".
All arrows are barrelled, max. diameter is 0.3. Deflection is 0.88 - 0.3, the wood is said to be pine.
The 0.33 deflection is driving me crazy, I have really done a lots of thrials, I ended up with 0.45 in deflection and 0.25 in max. diameter to be my best, but still 278grs. in weight.
How the hell they got such 200grs.!
Michael
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Tradeoffs in stiffness for smaller diameters is something I have been debatiing. I can make 200 grains with pine and maintain good stiffness but a larger diameter. With the larch I have been using I can get the diameter down to .25 or below and my weight to 200 grains but struggle with enough spine. I think the larch would be ideal for 80# bows and above.
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Michael,
There may be an error in the spine deflections reported in the following report:
http://margo.student.utwente.nl/sagi/artikel/turkish/ (http://margo.student.utwente.nl/sagi/artikel/turkish/)
Notice how the arrow deflections are listed from higher to lower, but arrow diameter is listed lower to higher. The trend is perfectly opposite what it should be. I think the author may have typed in the deflection data backward. I'd expect the .25" diameter arrow to deflect 0.88", and the 0.30" diameter arrow to deflect .33", not the other way around.
The 0.58" average deflection of the 18 arrows, with an average diameter of 0.27" is more plausible, but still outstanding.
Arrow stiffness is proportional to the diameter raised to the fourth power, so a very small diameter difference makes a very large stiffness difference.
I believe I can match the average deflection of the Turkish flight arrows using a high grade of heat treated Sitka Spruce. I plan to make a serious effort at it later this year.
Another observation, these Turkish flight arrows averaged just over 190 grains, but they were shot out of very heavy bows. If we assume one of the lighter Turkish Flight bows pulled 125 lb, then that would be the equivalent of shooting only 76.4 grain arrows out of a 50-lb bow!
Alan
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I believe that a 200+ grain flight arrow for a 50# flight bow leaves a lot of untapped potential unless the bow has a long draw length. By long draw, I mean the arrow is drawn 26" or more past the arrow contact point or arrow rest on the bow.
The trade-off going to light arrows is that the arrow becomes much more sensitive to tuning and release issues. Excessive paradox/wiggle has a huge effect too. Wind tunnel testing indicates that paradox on even a very well tuned arrow shot by an Olympic-level target archer can induce double the drag of an arrow launched from an air gun without paradox. The same doubling in drag was shown for an arrow launched with as little as three degrees misalignment to the direction of flight.
I have a pretty extreme example of this from my foot bow shooting last year(sorry, non primitive). Only two arrows were found on my last day of shooting. Fortunately, I have video of these shots and saw that my release loop broke at just past half draw. Based on my chrono testing, that arrow was traveling around 480 fps, but it left the bow very clean, and landed nearly 1300 yards away. The release loop broke free early on the other arrow too, but it was drawn 3-4" farther than the first, and probably left the bow around 580+ fps. But I had also forgot to tighten the arrow rest and it was blasted off the bow with the arrow. I assume this resulted in a misaligned arrow launch because the second arrow landed a few hundred yards SHORT of the first, despite the longer draw and much higher launch speed.
Alan
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Allen, those are just the kind of things I feel we really have to learn to control if we ever want to establish some serious records. The year before I entered flight shooting I had a very light but very stiff river cane arrow, taperred from front to back that weighed about 240 grains with a 60 grain tip up front. I got better distances from that arrow than I am getting today from much faster bows. I hope in the future you will open some threads on this topic and discuss it more at length.
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Alan, I suspect the numbers to be somehow wrong, but Klopsteg is Klopsteg, almost every info about Osmanian flight- arrows are based on his researches. Thanks for clearifying.
Your post has driven me much more suspicious. A 76grs. arrow shot by a 50lbs bow will explode.
Asking a turkish friend and consulting wikipedia is showing that maybe the "avoirdupois" method used by Klopsteg for to convert the weights is wrong!
Obviously Klopsteg used " dram" instead of "dirham".
Go here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirham and here:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avoirdupois
An Osmanian dirhem(dr.) is equivalent to 3, 1gr. or 47grs.. So these arrows are weighing at an average of about 320grs., which is much more realistic.
Nowadays flight- arrows are matching these measurements quite exactly, no more brain racking over it!
Klopsteg, where had you been last night?
Michael
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Michael,
I believe the arrow weights in grains are pretty reasonable. 190-200 grains is a typical weight for Turkish flight arrows shot from heavy flight bows.
I was just pointing out that the arrow deflections were misleading. It initially gave me the impression that the minimum 0.25" diameter arrow had only a 0.33" deflection, but in reality, it just says the smallest diameter of all the arrows measured was 0.25", and the smallest deflection of all the arrows in the group was 0.33". I think the average values are the most meaningful.
I would shoot a 76 grain arrow from a 50# primitive flight bow if I could get clean arrow flight and it was safe. The barrier to doing this is that we currently have a 23" minimum arrow length rule for all our primitive divisions under our USA Archery rules. I think one rule change I would advocate for is to allow shorter arrows at our events. But making a change at this point can be seen as unfair to the prior record holders who competed under the 23" minimum arrow rule.
Alan
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Allen, thats a very important point, one of the reasons I am pushing for a 21" minimum in the new organization. I would also like to see longer overdraws allowed on all the regular fligth bows but I am open to anything.
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Steve,
My proposal for the World Archery adaptation would be to further reduce restrictions on the bow designs used. I would propose adopting the same 14" minimum arrow length rule used for the modern bows eliminate handle depth and overdraw restrictions. Finally, I would be tempted to have the Turkish shot under the Complex-Composite.
These are just my personal opinions. Any changes would require agreement of the entire Flight committee.
Alan
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I would go for that also, I was afraid pushing shorter than 21 might raise eyebrows.
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I'm sure 14" arrows may be pushing it, but if the change is made, I figure we might as well go all the way. Also, such a change wouldn't be made haphazardly. We do need to consider fairness to the current record holders. This is where I'd love to have Dan Perry's feedback.
My philosophy is, the job of a flight archer is seeing how far they can fling an arrow. In the case of primitive, I feel the only restrictions should be placed on the materials used for the archery tackle. The form of the equipment will evolve to suit this function.
Alan
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I beieve the existing flight organization is primarily focused on modern flight, possibly as it should be. The regular flight bows you guys make and shoot are the true spirit of flight shooting. Our forefathers would love to see it pushed to its limits. My personnal favorite era is the 1930's and 1940's, I am not thinking so much primitive as much as I am natural material bows. I figure a group consience here will end up dictating the rules and we will do our best individually to get our own influence into it. Have you noticed how much I argue my points? LOL.
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I disagree that the existing organization is primarily focused on modern flight. The current organization purpose is only on supporting Flight Archery first and foremost. Primitive is a critical component of this. The purpose of USA Archery/World Archery Flight is to provide support and structure to accommodate a variety of styles within Flight Archery. But I should move this to another topic. Sorry, I got derailed. Where were we?
Alan
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Alan, I believe the topic does belong here. This is one of the reasons I have been so pleased that you are now on the flight committee. I expect Dan will weigh in here soon and give us some of his feelings on the subject. Protecting the viability of current records is important and I highly respect it while at the same time recognize a need for a few changes. The longer we go ( it has allready been a considerable amount of time) the harder it will become. Input from current record holders in the present organization should obviously be respected. My feelings might raise some eyebrows but in good consience I can't really feel any other way. I don't feel the current records have reached a level that is even close to what we should be shooting. Most likely a lack of competition has contributed to this. I know that on any given day with a good arrow, good conditions and a decent bow I have a good chance of breaking records. Dan Perry's elb record is probably the only one that I am really impressed with but I don't feel that should even be a class in regular flight shooting because we are forced to modify how an elb should be built to perform like a flight bow.
I don't think as a group we have been hard enough on ourselves to make tough choices about things. We all like each other too much. In the long run what are the best options for the sport? In all honesty I really enjoy how it is now, it is the highlight of my year. I think only relatively small changes could improve things.
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I am conflicted over the 14 inch arrow idea, but only as it relates to traditional bow designs. For a primitive freestyle class, it think it is OK. Some of the committee members didn't want to duplicate current modern classes with natural materials.
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For 24 inch arrows out of 50# bows, my best arrows seemed to be between 160 and 180 grains.
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My opinion is that what is good for one should be good for all
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I can relate the that opinion. I just try to picture the application for a traditional long bow class.
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Dan, have you had a chance to read through most of the topics yet. I know you came in late. I am interested in your opinion of a new primitive only organization, not to replace the other but to promote it.
One part would be regular flight shooting just as we do it today with a few minor changes and the other would be the tradtional aspect which is really more of a bowyers class to compare bows as opposed to all aspects of flight shooting. The traditionals side would take the place of broadhead shooting and hopefully we can agree to use an arrow weight per pound of draw weight. This really would eliminate the need for weight classes. Or maybe just have below or above 60#.
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Steve,
I have looked around a little,tried to answer a question or two, and given some encouragement and input. That is about it though. haven't read much.
Grain per pound still requires measuring the arrow and the bow. Broad head was flight for practical aplication. Bows that would be used for hunting. Arrows with enough fletching to stabilize a practical arrow.
Grains per pound really is a bowyer game. I am not against it. it still sounds fun.
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How do we measure draw length on ELBs and primitives shot off the hand? Arrow length still?
Doubtless this info is elsewhere and I've just missed it :-[ Sorry.
Del
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Under USAA rules, draw length for weigh-in of flight bows has been standardized regardless of bow type. For those bows with an arrow shelf or arrow rest, the bow is drawn until the tip of the longest arrow falls free of the rest or shelf.
For bows without an arrow shelf, the bow is drawn until the arrow tip is able to fall behind the belly side of the bow at the arrow pass.
Alan
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What about paper or vellum for fletches? waterproofing shellac or?
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Cheers for that clarification Alan :)
Del
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Harry Drake tries parchment and water buffalo horn vanes. They seemed to break a lot.
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today I finish my best arrow so far for my turkish 70 lb at 25 inch. Made of hickory carya laciniosa. It is very stiff and middle weight wood, very differend from normal heavy and elastic hickory. i have made few longbows from this wood but I had problems with chrysals. Arrow 25 " mass 196 grain, deflex 0,59 " bigest diameter 0,245 ". Now only parchment and big effort :)
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Thats really good! When are you going to test them out?
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in next week. I dont have very big expectations, I be happy with shoot over 300 m. It is not quite flightbow - little to long and I have very safe , heavy string. I dont push this bow to the limit, a lot of work with hornbow and Im little affraid .
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Hope it does better than you think !!
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Newby Arvin ! I was burnishing some different flight arrows this weekend. A dim light came on in my little head. I was wondering if compression in the shaft would change the spine or weight or length . I clamped two boards on my bench and established a length. I checked the spine and weighed the arrow. I then commenced to compressing the shaft with a shaft tamer and straighten as I went. Well I noticed no change in the length. The spine did not change . The weight came down 3 grains. Must have squeezed the $&&@ out of it. Ya I know I'm bored. You guys ever got any different results. Arvin
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I have tried heat treating arrows from different woods, some it makes almost no difference and some it makes a very measurable difference.