Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: GlisGlis on February 18, 2015, 10:05:58 am

Title: pellet bow test - new bow - new pics
Post by: GlisGlis on February 18, 2015, 10:05:58 am
Hello folk
after alot of searching I decided to give pellet bow a try
Online informations are quite scarce and not too many people seem to use it
For my test i used a 25ish # ash bow with crappy pellet strings.
When I'll hit the correct setup I'll do it better.
The 2 strings are kept 4,5 cm  (1  49/64'') apart that I think is a little too much for the short double string.
It require a strong fingers grip to keep the string together and the pinch grip is not confortable.
In fact i think that the setup showed in this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gl6LDwVjn4
could be better as longer double lines will require less energy to keep strings together at draw
Stone hitting the bow or the hand never seems a problem when I can have a good grip on the pellet.
I use the twisting holding bow hand technique described on some readings and it seems to work very well.
The basic is to twist the holding bow hand a couple of degrees to the outwards (actually keeping the bow twisted at draw) and the stone will pass on the inward (right for rigth handed).
I suspect that could be difficult to do it with stronger bows.

It seems to be a very funny and rich of potential type of shooting.
I just have to resolve the pinch issue
Can understand what the man in the video does
I'm open to any suggestion and contribution. Sorry for the long talk
Title: Re: pellet bow test
Post by: dueb on February 18, 2015, 10:09:11 am
I have never seen that, Thanks for sharing!  ;D
Title: Re: pellet bow test
Post by: adams89 on February 18, 2015, 11:08:44 am
very, very cool thing, nice for rabbits ;) thanks for sharing
Title: Re: pellet bow test
Post by: koan on February 18, 2015, 11:24:41 am
My Cambodian buddy told me about these. They used them to run critters out of the garden. They used very low weight as they are buddhist and dont intend on killing, just scaring off the critters. He said you have to flick your wrist at the right moment to keep pellet from hitting your bow.... Brian
Title: Re: pellet bow test
Post by: bubbles on February 18, 2015, 01:09:13 pm
This is the kind of bow where a giant hole in the center of your handle would be very helpful. 
Title: Re: pellet bow test
Post by: willie on February 18, 2015, 06:21:11 pm
a little different, but?

http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/54779/You-asked-for-it-Ken-pellet-bow-ball-shooter
Title: Re: pellet bow test
Post by: GlisGlis on February 19, 2015, 04:45:38 am
@ koan
it would be great to have more details form a first hand user. It seems that there are a few small differences in various parts of the world

@Willie
thankyou Willie. I already stumbled on that project
It looks interesting but a little bit too complex and less primitive than those I'm trying to reproduce

Anyway I kept shooting and found some interesting fact.
First of all the pinch issue.
I think I solved it.
The pouch was far too big for the bullets I was shooting.
I tried to pinch and grab the pouch with the stone inside resulting in a very inconsistent grip.
the two sides of the pouch kept slipping before release giving strange directions to the shoot
I tried then to shoot bigger ammo and pinch the stone.
All releases became uniform. Hard hitting straight shot.
very good !   .... not yet
Now a new problem arise. My twisting hand technique seems not to work anymore. Dont know why
90% of the shots hit the bow handle
I tried hard but i cant reproduce the technique seen in the videos

Anyway after alot of attempts i developed a new technique that works well
I keep the bow very canted and after realeasing I let the bow drop a bit.
that allow the pellet to pass over the bow avoiding it and apparently without deviation from the target
all shots seems very powerful and accurate
That type of shooting is really addicting. Not having to think about arrows recovery gives you a nice freedom  ;)
Title: Re: pellet bow test
Post by: GlisGlis on February 26, 2015, 10:24:03 am
Another video - team pellet shooting:
https://vk.com/video-19790784_160664703

I'm still working on my technique and almost done string version 2.0  ;)
Title: Re: pellet bow test
Post by: GlisGlis on March 02, 2015, 12:18:56 pm
I see that this thread doesnt get much attention but i'll be relentless in the name of science  ;)
Here string version number 2. Longer double line smaller pouch. Definitly easier to shoot.

Things learned:
- From the testing so far it is easier to shoot when the pouch is smaller than the diameter of the pellet
- Length of double string seems ininfluent
- a stone hitting bow handle is likely to rebound and break something  or hit you :-\   ----> it's a wise thing to practice your technique with a cork instead of stones (that also allows indoor shooting that is good fun)
- apparently the pellet hitting my helding hand is never an issue. the pouch on strings is about an inch higher that the corrisponding hand on the bow.
- the dropping bow technique is easy to master, twisting wrist is much more complicated (at least for me)
- shooting rate is awesome. It's easy to shoot up to 3 or 4 pellets in a few seconds. far easier than with arrows.

next steps: an even smaller pouch, a shorter bow and a bendy handle bow, then different kinds of pellets.

In the meanwhile let me suggest you to try it! You could be amazed.
Title: Re: pellet bow test
Post by: koan on March 02, 2015, 01:06:05 pm
Keep truckin, this is cool! Im thinkin short and deflexed(for a higher brace hieght) might make it abit safer/easier for the timing to clear bow and hand from the pellet..my 2 cents... Brian
Title: Re: pellet bow test
Post by: son of massey on March 02, 2015, 01:20:02 pm
I am surprised the rate of fire is a lot higher with one of these...getting the stone in the pouch seems like it would be a deal where a third hand would be helpful if you aren't going to set the bow down, which seems like it would be slower (for me anyway).

Has the belly of the handly taken much damage from getting shot at point blank? That would make things a little scary I would think.
SOM
Title: Re: pellet bow test
Post by: Marc St Louis on March 02, 2015, 01:25:37 pm
I see that this thread doesnt get much attention but i'll be relentless in the name of science  ;)
Here string version number 2. Longer double line smaller pouch. Definitly easier to shoot.

Things learned:
- From the testing so far it is easier to shoot when the pouch is smaller than the diameter of the pellet
- Length of double string seems ininfluent
- a stone hitting bow handle is likely to rebound and break something  or hit you :-\   ----> it's a wise thing to practice your technique with a cork instead of stones (that also allows indoor shooting that is good fun)
- apparently the pellet hitting my helding hand is never an issue. the pouch on strings is about an inch higher that the corrisponding hand on the bow.
- the dropping bow technique is easy to master, twisting wrist is much more complicated (at least for me)
- shooting rate is awesome. It's easy to shoot up to 3 or 4 pellets in a few seconds. far easier than with arrows.

next steps: an even smaller pouch, a shorter bow and a bendy handle bow, then different kinds of pellets.

In the meanwhile let me suggest you to try it! You could be amazed.
[/quote

Possibly an armored gauntlet might be useful for the the bow hand?
Title: Re: pellet bow test
Post by: GlisGlis on March 03, 2015, 03:37:03 am
Quote
Im thinkin short and deflexed(for a higher brace hieght) might make it abit safer/easier for the timing to clear bow and hand from the pellet..my 2 cents.Im thinkin short and deflexed(for a higher brace hieght) might make it abit safer/easier for the timing to clear bow and hand from the pellet..my 2 cents.

Yes. I think too that could be reasonable.

Quote
getting the stone in the pouch seems like it would be a deal where a third hand would be helpful

Not really. unlike the slingshot pouch this one, being attached to the strings, is very steady.
You can hold 3 or 4 stones in your drawing hand and still put one in the pouch in no time.
All you need is to lay the pellet on the pouch and pinch the pellet and draw to shoot

Quote
Has the belly of the handly taken much damage from getting shot at point blank?
only once  ;)
then i learned to tie a piece of rubber to the handle when i pellets shoot

Quote
Possibly an armored gauntlet might be useful for the the bow hand?
I think it could be a little overkill
so far I have never shooted my hand and it seems unlikely I'll do in the future. well... at least I hope so  :D
Title: Re: pellet bow test
Post by: fiddler49 on March 03, 2015, 04:00:42 am

I took a different approach to shooting stones or lead balls with any bow! I made an arrow with a small funnel at the front and a slide like used on fishing arrows that is attached to a fur rabbit skin or rag. You load ball into funnel and place a bit of wadding over to keep projectile from falling out, like a muzzle loader. When you pull back and release arrow the drag stops arrow in about three yards but the ball keeps on going at arrow speed.
50 cal. lead ball will leave a dent in car door at 20 yards!!!  cheers fiddler49
Title: Re: pellet bow test
Post by: GlisGlis on March 03, 2015, 10:15:23 am
yess Fiddler i know your project. Willie also pointed to it.
Title: Re: pellet bow test
Post by: leehongyi on March 04, 2015, 08:25:38 am
Ancient chinese and some beijing people play this kind of pellet bows. But they use thumb finger release so as to prevent hitting at grip.
Title: Re: pellet bow test
Post by: GlisGlis on March 05, 2015, 04:58:52 am
@leehongyi
Quote
But they use thumb finger release so as to prevent hitting at grip.

I dont quite get it. could you please explain ?

I've found another video
The bow is not well tillered but you can see detail of the grip on the stone
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IauSNXTJIA
Title: Re: pellet bow test
Post by: fiddler49 on March 05, 2015, 05:25:20 am
The ball shooting arrow is much less complicated than your rig and can be completely primitive. My best one uses a raw hide funnel and slide, leather moose lace and rabbit skin drag. The slide stop at the arrow nock end can be sinew and pitch holding the funnel and slide stop in place. In the summer I use a green leaf as over shot wading. I keep the arrow in my quiver year round to whack pesky moose that chase my dog and I out on the archery range. It's a great moose gooser!!! Plus it will kill a grouse or squirrel easily and you don't risk putting your eye out when the ball bounces off your bow handle!  cheers fiddler49
Title: Re: pellet bow test
Post by: leehongyi on March 05, 2015, 08:11:23 am
somewhat like shooting an asian bow
Title: Re: pellet bow test
Post by: GlisGlis on March 05, 2015, 11:01:34 am
@ leehongyi
thankyou man
If you are referring to the pinch on the pellet made by the thumb and one or 2 fingers yes!. This seems to be the way to go

@Fiddler
Nothing wrong with your setup.
It's a nice concept and a good realisation. No doubt it can be made with primitive tools and materials and that it'll deliver a good shot.
Maybe in a primitive/survival situation it could be a little bit more complex to build
But anyway I guess i'd like to stick with historically and geographically existing bows

So here is setup number 3. the one I'm shooting today.
Facts:
- the bow is shorter (40'')and lighter (#15-18 )
- following the above video the string is a continous loop with no eylets specifically made for the nocks. that prevent string twisting
- pouch is really smaller (little more than half inch)
- shooted only corks. still have to test with stones (but I dont expect significant differences)
- tryed 2 different pinch on the pellets. one with thumb and finger on the sides of the pellets and one pinching top and bottom.

Impressions
- far easer to shoot than both previous versions. Mostly due probably to lighter draw.
- with a lighter draw wrist twist is almost easy and the pellets hitting bow are almost completly gone. I draw, start to twist the bow and as i release the bow gets out of line of aim.
- pinching the pellet top and bottom seems to guarantee greater accuracy but you cant use double fingers. that is tiring after many shots
- the deeper handle also made easier to twist the bow

Let me convince you.
TRY THIS AT HOME !!!  (just wait your wife is out)  >:D
Title: Re: pellet bow test
Post by: GlisGlis on March 30, 2015, 08:05:49 am
Will add the images to have a visual reference:

Brazil - known as bodoque
basically a flatbow similar to seneca bows with a glued on handle
pouch is H shaped
Title: Re: pellet bow test
Post by: GlisGlis on March 30, 2015, 08:08:20 am
Brazil again
Title: Re: pellet bow test
Post by: GlisGlis on March 30, 2015, 08:09:46 am
Pellet bows from Thailand
Title: Re: pellet bow test
Post by: GlisGlis on March 30, 2015, 08:13:47 am
Italy (1700) - hunting birds in Venetian lagoon

note it's a single string bow
Title: Re: pellet bow test
Post by: GlisGlis on March 30, 2015, 08:22:55 am
First one is from Paraguay
Second is from Siam
the last is from Afghanistan -  Panjshir Valley - strings made from guts and cloth for the pouch

I find really amazing how the same concept evolved in different ways in remote countries
Title: Re: pellet bow test
Post by: GlisGlis on March 30, 2015, 08:27:52 am
Chinese ?
interesting part is the string is partially made from bamboo - pouch too is made out of a piece of boo
I guess that prevent unwanted twisting that will occur with a single string
Title: Re: pellet bow test
Post by: GlisGlis on March 30, 2015, 08:52:46 am
And now my last test.
New bow new string

51'' black locust 28-30 ish # - small layer of sapwood backed with heavy paper (another test  ;) ) coconut tip overlays
very short handle. had to increase the size gluing some more wood as it was too narrow
you can see some wine cork i use to train my twist wrist technique.

I'm really satisfied with this one
length seems very good for this type of shooting
I finally nailed the wrist trick and now no more shooting the handle occur.
Another 50 - 100 corks shooting then I'll definitly switch to more aggressive pellets  :D
One thing that improved greatly the accuracy was the pellet grip.
Now i hold the pellet with the thumb below and the index and middle on top of the pellet.
All fingers pass between the two strings.
Index and middle have to stay partially one on top of the other to fit the small strings width.
That kind of grip eliminates unwanted twist

When (not if   ;) ) you'll try it feel free to continue this thread to keep all information grouped.

Title: Re: pellet bow test - new bow - new pics
Post by: Joec123able on March 30, 2015, 11:28:04 am
Would like to try something like this. Doesn't the pellet just hit the handle tho?
Title: Re: pellet bow test - new bow - new pics
Post by: GlisGlis on March 31, 2015, 08:46:55 am
Quote
Would like to try something like this. Doesn't the pellet just hit the handle tho?

yes there's the risk
take 2 minutes to read previous posts. There are at least 2 methods to avoid it
Title: Re: pellet bow test - new bow - new pics
Post by: GlisGlis on May 14, 2020, 02:07:54 am
pellet use by the Kuki tribes of assam
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ax985H0BrjA

and a modern video where you can see the wrist rotation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ga-UiD_0rQ
Title: Re: pellet bow test - new bow - new pics
Post by: GlisGlis on May 14, 2020, 06:52:19 am
This video is pretty good too. Whatch for hands placement and bow grip around minute 1.43
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYsKvp745x8&list=PLgwPPZLZY-4CyUi6dyR5J4v7qks-Ze-ff&index=30
Title: Re: pellet bow test - new bow - new pics
Post by: dylanholderman on May 14, 2020, 09:13:09 am
Iím glad you bumped this up it reminded me that I want to build one of them  :D
Title: Re: pellet bow test - new bow - new pics
Post by: GlisGlis on May 14, 2020, 09:28:33 am
I have a very low poundage one that I train whit at home in this covid quarantine.
shooting cork bullets against pillows . I'm getting good at this     (SH) ?  :-M
Title: Re: pellet bow test - new bow - new pics
Post by: dylanholderman on May 14, 2020, 11:06:19 am
Yeah a pellet bow I think I could shoot in my backyard even with stones and not worry to much but the cork idea sounds like a good training idea too, any issues with the cork being so lightweight?
Title: Re: pellet bow test - new bow - new pics
Post by: GlisGlis on May 15, 2020, 02:14:33 am
You'll be surprised how much energy will go in a little stone and even in a cork
be sure to try cork, or even balls made of aluminum foil or rubber  before shooting stones

A stone can definitely kill some critter, probably also a cork at short range

for the bow make it wide limbed to avoid twist
deep handle for a good grip (you need to twist your wrist) and high brace
Title: Re: pellet bow test - new bow - new pics
Post by: dylanholderman on May 15, 2020, 08:28:01 pm
any thoughts on the single string style you posted from Thailand and the European paintings?
i have some thoughts but wondered if you have any insights on them.
Title: Re: pellet bow test - new bow - new pics
Post by: dylanholderman on May 15, 2020, 11:44:17 pm
another video to add to this thread  :)

relevant bit starts around 2:00
h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF69yofv1uc&fbclid=IwAR0IRtGBkS-DvuDyUOYp00n2KupnRZmhW4aOVMj7hKggC09wSA1iOPVNNKo

Title: Re: pellet bow test - new bow - new pics
Post by: GlisGlis on November 19, 2021, 04:50:38 am
all bamboo pellet bow by Elisonj
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,70821.0.html