Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bow of the Month Contest => Topic started by: Slivershooter on February 01, 2008, 12:12:00 pm
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With the number of entries for BOW of the Month increasing (this is a good thing) I have found it hard to compare all the bows without going back and forth numerous times to the bows, which takes a lot of time. To make it a little easier I worked up a point system using an excel format that weights several different categories and automatically totals all the points. This allows me to go through all the bows, assign points, then return and review three or four bows with the most points and determine my winner. The one with the most points usually wins but not always, sometimes I might add bonus points in the overall Impression category for the bow that just impresses me for some unknown reason.
How do you go about choosing the BOM winner? What system if any do you use: objective, subjective, or combination of both types like me?
Below is a copy of my rating system (if the embedded excel file works) and an explanation of the category, points available, and how/why I rate the category.
Full Draw 25 points I feel this is the most important category so it has the most available points. Also, it is the easiest one to examine because they are all posted beneath the entry links. If I rate the tiller at less then 20 points I rarely bother to research the other categories unless the bow impressed me earlier in the month.
Braced 10 points I would like to give more points to this category as it is the one seen the most often. However, to excel in the full draw category, the braced view some times suffers.
Tips 20 points For me, the tips on a bow show the craftsmanship and experience of the bowyer. I don't necessarily look for overlays or certain styles/types of tips but rater if they flow smoothly, fit the style of bow, and the details shown: Often these pictures are out of focus and have cost people my vote.
Handle 15 points Like the tips, the handle needs so flow smoothly into the limbs. Being larger then the tips I find them easier then the tips to get right, therefore less points are available.
Accouterments 10 points This encompasses a lot of things, including but not limited to handle wraps, drawings, snakeskin's, writing, inlays, ect…. But they must add to the look of the bow. Sometimes I find myself deducting points rather then adding them here.
Glue Lines + or - This can be a deciding factor if two bows are tied and they both have glue lines that you can see in the pictures, but that rarely happens. If one has glue lines and the other doesn't the bow get equal points unless I can tell the glue lines are bad, and then it gets a minus.
Overall Appearance 20 points The overall look and feeling I get from the pictures. This is purely subjective but its score is usually close to the same ratio received in the other categories.
The excel file lost its formatting when I tried posting, if you would like a copy send me a pm and I will forward it to you.
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OH MAN this again. :'( We had a discussion on this several times, and people always get offended by others criteria. Feel free to answear and discuss, but lets try to keep it civil. Don't tell anyone they are wrong or attack them for their meathod of picking since it is a personal choice and we all feel different. I for one am staying out. Justin
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I second Justin's comment :)
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Me 3. ;D ;D Get out the pop corn. :D
Pappy
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Heck this could be more entertaining than Super Bowl commerials ;D
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...................Heck count me OUT like Justin an Pappy an Dana ! I can hear the ticker on the bomb ! :o ;D......bob
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Well, being a newbie and all that that entails,I'll speak up 'cause I don't any better yet.
When I look to vote on BOM bows, I try to pick a bow that was well designed,tillered and finished and all that that includes such things as tiller,braced design,full draw design glue lines,tips and overlays,grips,backings, overall aesthetics's of the bow plays a big part( if'n it ain't pretty, why look at it ),overall craftsmanship of the bowyer and experience level,not aways is the most experienced the best looking,designed or built.
However I mostly go by what tickles my fancy and what I think I would like try to achieve. some of the more experienced people on here don't always win,
Anyhow these are just my silly ways of voting,and it seems to work for me, ;) ;D
PEACE
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Guess I should apologize, I was just looking for input and ideas that might help myself and others a make decision when voting for BOM. I looked through all the titles in the BOM category and didn’t see any threads which appeared to relate to this subject. If the topic opens a can of worms and causes problems, Yank IT. However, I do think many of us might learn from others discussing the criteria they use, if done in a civil manner. Once again, I didn’t realize this would be a “touchy” subject that had been discussed before.
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Slivershooter, this is usually discussed on a thread where voting for BOM occurs. After the voting is complete the thread is replaced with a thread for the winning bow. That is why you cannot find another thread. Sounds like you have a great system that works for you. I will just say this, I wont look at a bow unless the tiller at full draw is great. Now if I could just shoot them all we would be in business. ;D Justin
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But, but, aahh....nevermind ;) ;D :o ::)......Brian
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Last month there was a rather heated debate on this same topic and in the end it comes down to personal choice.
Whether you vote based on tiller, eye candy or popularity of the bowyer in the end its your vote. So vote as ya please
and make no apologies.
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.....Dana yer such a politician ! OH WAIT yer a moderator ! ;D.......bob
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Thanks bob, my mom always said I talked too much ;D
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My question is why doesn't Gordon have his own category??? ;D ;D
When I see his bows I feel like I've been building 'em blindfolded with a machete using only my left hand.
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Silvershooter, I feel that some people do vote for the wrong reasons, popularity of a bowyer for example. Some times I wish We couldn't see what the others have voted for untill the voting is over, makes me wonder if it would change the outcome any. Oh, well Like Dana said there are no rules so vote how you see fit.
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Good point ryano makes me wonder also, Slivershooter one thing I do is mentally strip the bow down to
bare wood so I can visualize just the bow with no eye candy to distract me. While details and decoration are nice
I don't think they add any effectiveness to the bow as a hunting weapon nor performance enhancements.
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I look at full draw first of all, then the unbraced profile...then I consider the bowyer. Like Cody Snyder's bow...he got my vote because here is a teenager that put months into building his bow and it showed in the end. I'm sure Justin was along for the ride and contributed at least with technical support but in the end it was Cody's accomplishment. There were other bows that month...some technically better built bows also but I considered the bowyer. 8)
All we can go by, over the internet, is what appears to us on a computer screen. We don't know if the bow blew after the last pic was taken. :o Also, if you notice, people like "glitter". Some folks vote for how cool the bow looks, which is fine. Appearance is important but if you were in a situation where you "needed" your bow for food or protection, that beautiful backing or the fur trim or the hand painted design on the back ain't worth squat! I love to look at a beautifully crafted and appointed bow and that gets my vote sometimes but usually, until I push the vote button, I have no idea what bow I will be voting for. Pat
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I look at full draw first of all, then the unbraced profile...then I consider the bowyer. Like Cody Snyder's bow...he got my vote because here is a teenager that put months into building his bow and it showed in the end. Pat
Best part is Cody isn't even a teenager yet Pat. Kids can sure make you proud at times, right Pappy. Justin
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Even more of an accomplishment, Justin. 8) Pat
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Kids can make ya proud even if there not yours, Look at the young guns on here making awesome bows.
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8) Thats what it is all about IMO Pat
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i personally down care who built the bow. i always vote on difficulty of design and how well the bow is tillered. now this does sometimes leave me in a quandry when comparing a recurve against a straight bow. sometimes it's unfortunate, but i have soft spot for curvy bows.
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no matter what you build your (always subjective, since 'objective' does not exist) decision, be it tiller, finish, detail, overall appearance, inspiration coming from eitherone of the points: we all have to make up our mind based on photos only!
so please!!! get the camera in focus and if it doesn't work on the first trial give it a hundred more chances! doesn't cost anything with your digi-cam! foul around with it, and sooner or later you'll have nicer pics!!
the quality of the bows don't seem to be the problem here at all: the quality of the pictures is not improving alike!
i don't know...is that off topic?? ??? ??? ???
frank
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I agree frank pictures should be in focus, and against a background that allows one to see the bow.
Pretty pics in the woods or what have you are nice but can confuse the picture making it hard to see the bow.
I know I need to get better with the camera.
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dana, that was not meant to be a blame for anybody at all; it's just nice to have good pics of good bows to look at!
i like the mix of technical and artistic pics when a bow is presented!
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Frank, I like where your ideas have gone. What we would like to see. Good quality pictures, in focus. A side picture of unbraced, braced and full draw without canting the bow so we can see what the tiller really looks like. Also if you put a lot of work into the handle or tips or paint/decorations, a good quality picture of them so we can tell the quality of the work. You worked hard on your new bow, so show it in its best light. Justin
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agreeing with dana i deleted my post, too, since what i wrote seemed to be misunderstandable!
frank
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Sorry folks, I felt it best to delete my response.
Dana
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Dana, I feel compelled to come to Frank's defense as I think you may have misunderstood his comment. Mechslashers recurve is indeed a fine bow. In fact it would have captured my vote had it not been for M-P's impressive interpretation of a native American style. What I believe Frank was trying to say is that it is difficult to fully appreciate the excellent work that went into Mechslasher's recurves because the photo was so poor. The picture did not diminish Mechslasher's bow for me because I have a pretty good idea of what it takes to pull off such a design and there was enough evidence in the picture to satisfy me that he did a good job of it. But the picture did leave me wanting - such fine craftsmanship deserves a better showing.
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thanks gordon!
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The intent of my original post was to get input on the system I use, it is not perfect but can be easily changed and will change as I weigh everybody's thoughts.
Frank, I definitely agree about picture quality, several times in the past a bow has lost my vote because of the pictures, I was unable to make a judgment/comparison with pictures they submitted.
Dana, I also mentally strip the bow down while examining it. Personally, I don't like bows that are painted, have drawings, or other things that detract from the beauty of the wood, but I try not to let that influence my vote. I find these types of accessories to detract from the overall appearance of the bow; however, once in a while they do enhance the bows looks. Often a few bows will have comparable tillers and they all appear to be solid bows. I find that with bow building (as with most things in life), that those who spend the time to get the finish details correct also do the little details that we can't see in pictures.
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i must have missed something about taking pics. sorry mine aren't up to snuff. i make bows, sometimes i make a decent arrow and every now and then i get a knife to come out halfway servicable. if anyone is looking for professional quality pics of my stuff i do apologize, i do the best i can. if i could take a picture worth publishing i would be working in the playboy mansion and it would be of something curvy wieghing around 115 with measurements of 36-24-34. sorry fellows if all this comes across too...abrasive. those who know me well know i like to keep things simple and this is a site about PRIMITIVE archery. the only pic that counts to me is the full draw pic. the rest is window dressing.
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if i could take a picture worth publishing i would be working in the playboy mansion and it would be of something curvy wieghing around 115 with measurements of 36-24-34.
The heck with the pictures Mechslasher, I give you extra points for your sense of humor ;D
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:D ;D :D ;D :D I've gotta agree Chris, Sometimes when I see the studio shots it kinda turns me off from that bow. I usually look for a good hunting bow ,not something all gussied up to go out on Saturday night. I like my girl up early in the morning.
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... if only it was possible to size down cavewall paintings to 640X480! 8)
cheerio, frank
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One thing I like about bow of the month is the fact that you set your own criteria. Just my own criteria, I tend to prefer the self bow categories, and I look harder at the mechanical aspects of the bow than I do the finishing touches most of the time. It does often seem that the bows with the best finishes are also extrely well made, in a case like this I might use a good finish for a tie breaker. I also give a lot of consideration to newbes comming around and try to judge the progress they have made and the care they put into what they are doing. If a newbe is close to a journeyman I will give the newbe the nod. Character bows catch my eye as long as the execution was as good as their looks.
In the backed bow section I use a less primitive approach and vote for what appear to be the highest level performers as well as high level of finish. Steve
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I don't have a system and my method vary. For selfbows I usually go with technical difficulty and tiller first followed by fit and finish. Eye candy doesn't impress me much but does play a role
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technical difficulty and tiller, i feel, should take precedent over finish or else like marc said it's "eye candy". i hate to say but after reading all the voting criterias, i feel as if this primitive archery site is heading the way of the fiberglas mentality of other websites. where flashy finishes and contrasting woods capture everyone's attention. don't get me wrong, i sometimes like eye candy but let us not lose track of what this website and magazine is about and that is PRIMITIVE ARCHERY. what's next, people tillering limbs with belt sanders, cutting grips with a cnc machine, and spraying on finishes with a automotive paint sprayers?
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Don't forget the lambskin orbital wax buffer Chris ;D
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Isn't democracy great!! You get to vote how you want... for whatever reason you choose. Nuf said.
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Tillering with belt sanders? :o, Uh Oh :-X
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... where flashy finishes and contrasting woods capture everyone's attention. don't get me wrong, i sometimes like eye candy but.....
....only as long as it is on your bow, right???
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i'm surprised it took so long to call that, at least you put the tail end of the quote. the bow i posted was a replica of a very old design which called for osage and walnut. i've admired bear/grumley bows ever since i started shooting traditional eight or nine years ago and i thought it would be an interesting challenge to try and replicate the design. i'm not leaving myself exempt by no means of admiring something flashy, just as i said earlier. the point i was trying to make is that if someone posted a simple woodlands bow with a bear fat and beeswax finish it would be lucky to capture a vote. i guess what i'm worried about is this site turning into something like the LW. i love this site and i would hate to see it lose it's purpose.
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i guess what i'm worried about is this site turning into something like the LW. i love this site and i would hate to see it lose it's purpose.
No worries, some of us will continue to make them without Christmas wrap. I don't have anything against people decorating their bows. I for one build them for myself with no regard for the contest. If I feel like decorating I will, If I want a plain Jane bow, that is what it will be. I just hope some people don't get so worried about winning the BOM contest that they quit building for the right reasons, because we love wood bows. Justin
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the point i was trying to make is that if someone posted a simple woodlands bow with a bear fat and beeswax finish it would be lucky to capture a vote.
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,894.0.html (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,894.0.html)
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Gordon jamie made that bow with a broken bottle, not sure I would classify that as simple!
Well said Chris and Justin.
Gordon and Frank your awful defensive, why is that?
I think what were trying to accomplish here is to make folks look a bit closer at the other bows before voting.
How many of you take the time to open each and every link and examine the bow before voting.
Too many times I see someone post a bow and right away someone pipes up and says "its got my vote"
and the month is just starting. Well I'm done with this if I've stepped on any toes, so be it. My final word is
think for yourself folks and make your own decision don't just follow the pack or vote for a bow because he's your friend
be honest with yourself and show respect to all the rest of us by keeping an open mind.
Dana
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Dana, I'm just pointing out that simple well-made bows do actually garner votes on this site contrary to an assertion that was made earlier.
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Man this always goes there,I like eye candy,I like simple plane bows,I just like wooden bows
all of them. :) :) Now that I think of it I like backed bows also even tho I don't do them,as long
as it don't have wheels to dress it up I like it. ;) :)
Pappy
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Man this always goes there,I like eye candy,I like simple plane bows,I just like wooden bows
all of them. :) :) Now that I think of it I like backed bows also even tho I don't do them,as long
as it don't have wheels to dress it up I like it. ;) :)
Pappy
Pappy, so what you are saying is its OK to dress her up just as long as its a her not a cross dresser. :o Justin
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That's right justin. ;) ;D
Pappy
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i stand corrected!!(http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/images/smilies/bow.gif)
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Gordon and Frank your awful defensive, why is that?
i don't know of any defence i made!!!!!!!!
can't find one that gordon made either!!!
i was trying to point out, that a good clear picture might be of help when it comes to BOM, and YOU, dana, jumped on me like crazy! i could not really see what could possibly be misunderstood in my post, but hey: may be i missed something, so i asked YOUR apology and took it back, you apologized to me right away, too, giving some rather strange explanations why you came across that harsh! - man, you still blow the same horn ever since!
it is not enough that i keep repeating that i didn't mean to offend anybody and nor does it help telling how great i think mechslasher's bow is, since unfortunately i mentioned his pic of the Grumley nock, that is so awfully out of focus! - dang, i could have named other similar examples as well but his bow was one of my favourits, along with ryan's (very dressed up with nice pictures, showing he's proud of what he did) and greg's (very plain with nice pictures showing the same) and gordon's (heck he deserved the win just for sharing his knowledge in this beautiful build-along!!!)
and also, dana, how do you know on what base i or anyone vote?? i don't even HAVE to look through the list since i have looked through each and every thread before it comes to BOM many times and saved many pictures to my computer. but i do go through the entire list anyway, since i want to make sure i have seen them all. i have a picturefile of almost everyone posting here because these pictures contain information. that's what i came her for in the first place; that's why i try to give something back by posting nice photos!
well, gussied up (ain't that supposed to be spellend with a 'p' ?) laminated bows are evident in europe since the late medieval.
laminated bamboo bows with curves worth the shiniest magazines we all oh so (seem to) like (the curves, of coarse , ...not the magazines) where a main weapon of the samurai worriers over 1000 years ago. these bows where pieces of art in any aspect!
2007 BOY winner chris glauben's double-curved bow was made using the same limb cross-section as well as the same (rope and wedges-) gluing technique (i use the same technique on all my laminated bows, too) chris' is a nice bow, not gussied at all; if you find the time, go have a look!
laminated hornbows, highly gussied (love that word, it's new for me! what's it mean??) with finest goatskin, painted and gold-plated are know from tutenchamun's tomb; that is more then 4000 years ago.
the laminated bow of the sami people of northern eurasia, made from compression pine and birch may go back far beyond that, whereas the oldest pictures of so-called characterbows - and i'm sure it is not enough to confirm that i really LOVE the many bows of that kind that i have seen on PA made by master bowyers such as northshore, pappy and gordon just to name a few) that i'm familiar with are from the early 20th century (yeah, 100 miles short way 100 years long time, heard it before, thanks).
in fact a swiss-found half-finished yew bow of the bodman type is considered by archaeologists to be purposely broken by the bowyer when he found an unexpected knot in the stave in the making process!
and, as gordon pointed out already: if you are out to collect points on BOM, the character bow sure is the way to go! ...and again it's most likely not enough for me to say that i KNOW it's probably also the hardest way!
i came up with that laminated purple heart bow with the fancy handle and tips on the very end of january; i really like the bow, but i did not think this girl's bow would have a chance against gordon's bow or even uwe's since we all know how much we are into curves over here (see above); that's why i voted for my own bow - together with the later owner's vote, that would make two...i thought!
yesterday on my drive home i had decided to change my vote for gordon's if it was still a tie when i get home because he had told me that he had voted for mine! but somebody else had changed mind and took back a vote from my bow, so gordon won! perfect!
i have respect for all of you bowyers making bows and posting them here, sharing knowledge and asking questions, but gentleman, what we discuss her is BOM, not brain surgery...
take this as the words from a german man, thank you,
frank (medicinewheel)
ps: mechslasher: i only know of original Grumley nocks carved out of the stave, never knew he had laminated these, too! but hey who am i to know 'bout that with my not even 4 years of archery experience over here in germany! i'm sure you will be so kind to update me and post a picture, right!?
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You know what, It still comes down to everybody is still going to vote the way they feel is right for them. Whether it is for a friend, glitter, hunting bow , or something that is just unique. These kind of threads, survey's or whatever , keep coming up and they get so, oh, boring. Just check out the "what do you think is primitive", thread, when the lawyer got involved. All this does is just get everybody in a pissin' contest , and doesn't settle anything since everybody has their own opinion.
Just a suggestion, but, maybe somebody should go on the Anything Else section and give tips on posting good pictures. Maybe , J.D., since he posted such nice pictures way back in December.
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That JD, he sure does take a nice picture. I would appreciate any tips he'd be willing to throw our way.
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technical difficulty and tiller, i feel, should take precedent over finish or else like marc said it's "eye candy". i hate to say but after reading all the voting criterias, i feel as if this primitive archery site is heading the way of the fiberglas mentality of other websites. where flashy finishes and contrasting woods capture everyone's attention. don't get me wrong, i sometimes like eye candy but let us not lose track of what this website and magazine is about and that is PRIMITIVE ARCHERY. what's next, people tillering limbs with belt sanders, cutting grips with a cnc machine, and spraying on finishes with a automotive paint sprayers?
I could not have said it any better....I think a Bow should be judged by the Tiller....Design....and of course the fact that these are supposed to be Primitive Bows that people would have staked their lives on 200 years ago....not the Showy little Bows that they sell in the I-40 Cherokee Trading Posts....and call them Authentic...heck I cant even stand a Arrow Rest!!!
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At the risk of starting (or prolonging) an argument let me point out that humans have been decorating their weapons for thousands of years – spears, knives, shields, war clubs, bows, armor, guns, cannons and even fighter planes. I absolutely concur that an attractive veneer is no substitute for sound design and function, but it doesn’t have to detract either. And in many cases it can even enhance. Remember the Flying Tigers – I’m sure many an enemy turned cold at the sight of those fearsome jaws bearing down on them.
There are many here who obviously espouse a contrarian view and that’s cool – feel free to favor any utilitarian stick that tickles your fancy. And there is a certain and undeniable elegance to a simple, but well executed design.
But I like mine just a little naughty and attractive – after all I’m just a guy. ;D
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medicine, i hope i didn't give the impression i was offended. i've been teaching in the public school system here in south carolina for over 12 years, i don't think it's possible for me to become offended any longer. but to help educate our european friends here is a pic of some late 40's deerslayers. enjoy!
http://www.archerycollecting.com/FeatureArticles/Bear_Archery_Bows.htm
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You know what, It still comes down to everybody is still going to vote the way they feel is right for them. Whether it is for a friend, glitter, hunting bow , or something that is just unique.
Your right Eddie. I know I used to get all wrapped up in this contest. I don't really care who wins anymore or if anyone votes for me, or my bows anymore. Its just a stupid contest. :P Seriously I'm over it! ;D
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I said at the beginning,get out the pop corn. dang I was right. ;) :)
Pappy
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Ya and I said I was gonna sit with ya Pappy and watch the show, instead I guess I became the show eh ???
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It definitely has made for interesting reading. :) I'm just an easy going southern boy that don't really like to rock the boat, and definitely do not like arguing. :) I really enjoy making selfbows and have only made three now with inlayed tips. This site reveals a lot of different types of bows and techniques and I enjoy learning and trying new things. I'm not going to get bent out of shape over a competition although I like winning as well as the next guy. Plenty of stress for me at work without bringing it into my hobby! ;)
As for the question of voting technique...we're all individuals and will vote as such. If the BOM ever got to where it was more of a headache for me then enjoyable, I would quit competing...simple as that.
To put my 2 cents worth in...I do think good quality clear pictures allow everyone to better view and critique a bow. If you're going to compete...why wouldn't you want as good a picture quality to show your bow to its best potential? ???
Peace! :)
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constructive disagreement is what makes us go to the next level. . i love a good argument >:Dkeep it up but keep it as respectful as you have been. peace
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As your level of skill goes up so does your understanding and appreciation for the difficulty in execution of difficult designs or methods. Jamie's stone bows are such and so are many other bows. I've voted for many snake bows and recurves because I know from experience how difficult they are to make. I hardly ever vote for a D bow because they are easy to make, also why I don't post the ones I make. There are always exceptions to every rule though. A good finish is also very hard to accomplish :)
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My extremely complicated system is to vote for the bow I like the best that month. ;D
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Hillbilly, I think thats what it really is about, if you like it best vote for it. You can have any reasons you want. I will admit that I hold certain guys to higher standards which sometimes isn't fair I think, but I do it anyway LOL. Steve
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As your level of skill goes up so does your understanding and appreciation for the difficulty in execution of difficult designs or methods.
well spoken marc!
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My extremely complicated system is to vote for the bow I like the best that month. ;D
What a coincidence, that is exactly what I do. ;D
So how do we get more people to vote? Don already sends out emails to remind. Justin
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So how do we get more people to vote? Don already sends out emails to remind. Justin
Let's just treat it like politics, and everyone competing in BOM make a bunch of promise's they don't plan to keep. That way whoever bribes the most folks to vote for them wins, and we don't even have to worry about getting into these "discussions" on who made the best bow. ;D ;D ;D
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So how do we get more people to vote? Don already sends out emails to remind. Justin
Let's just treat it like politics, and everyone competing in BOM make a bunch of promise's they don't plan to keep. That way whoever bribes the most folks to vote for them wins, and we don't even have to worry about getting into these "discussions" on who made the best bow. ;D ;D ;D
Ya Pappy has told me that if Greg votes wrong don't feed him >:D I think it has worked so far he ain't got no skinner ;D ;D ;D
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I look at all of the entries and pick a couple I like. Then I look at more pictures of them and pick the one I'd most like to own.
I don't have anything objective in it.
:D
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My extremely complicated system is to vote for the bow I like the best that month. ;D
Hey! That's my system.
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Guess I should apologize, I was just looking for input and ideas that might help myself and others a make decision when voting for BOM. I looked through all the titles in the BOM category and didn’t see any threads which appeared to relate to this subject. If the topic opens a can of worms and causes problems, Yank IT. However, I do think many of us might learn from others discussing the criteria they use, if done in a civil manner. Once again, I didn’t realize this would be a “touchy” subject that had been discussed before.
Don't apologize to anyone. Your system is well thought out and works for you. This forum is for interchange and sharing ideas and ultimately fine bows. Keep on coming back to this site and don't forget to vote. Thanks for the input. - OldBow