Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Shooting and Hunting => Topic started by: DC on August 12, 2015, 04:11:52 pm
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Are compounds easier to learn to shoot reasonably well? I ask because when I started going to the range there was a few other starting up. They went the compound route and now 6 or 8 months later they all have 2 or 3" groups and I'm still spraying them all over the hall. Is it just me?
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If you want easy and instant results I can guarantee you took the wrong path.
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+1
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Soooo, selfbows are harder? That would make me feel a lot better.
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Much much harder but also much more rewarding. Pappy
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Id say it may not be you, but your arrows. If they dont match your bow you wont hit where you are looking. Compounds, they are such that you decide nt need to practice and you can group almost perfect every time. Very good at what they are designed as, arrow shooting machines.
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Thanks guys. I have no desire to try a compound. They are amazing machines and I don't tire of watching them at the range but they don't float my boat.
Yes my arrows probably could be better, but so could my bows, my form, what else is there? I was just checking to make sure that I wasn't a total clutz compared to the other guys.
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I'd venture to say that most folk's shooting problems are arrow problems. The arrow is the most important part of the bow/arrow combo but most folks want to blame the bow for their bad shooting.
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Anybody can shoot 2-3" groups with a wheeler in short order. It takes ALOT of work and dedication to cut than in half. Not that a 1" group is any more effective than a 3" group. But if accuracy is something you crave, it matters. I did it back in the day and worked my tail off for a long time to get that good. My bow didn't rest under my bed between seasons.
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wheelie bows have pins, that makes it at least a thousand times easier to see where your arrow will hit. I've shot compound and within the first hour could get 3in groups a thirty yards, within my first hour shooting selfbows I managed to hit the target once or twice at 20 yards. So I think compounds are just more accurate due to the fact that they have pins and a realease system that is practicly fool-proof.
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You guys are making me fell way better :D Thanks
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i recommend to start with a matched set of arrows for range practicing.
of course you'd have to find what set you need. through trial and error.
go through your current set (i'm assuming they are primitive arrows) and number them sequentially with a piece of masking tape on each one.
go and shoot a few rounds at your target from the same distance, preferably within 10 yards because it's less distance for the arrow to correct its flight.
really focus on your grip, your form and your release. take note note of which arrows get the closest to the bullseye. it may help to write down the results. also, take note of which arrows that penetrate the target at any left/right angle other than dead-on. you'll want to remove those arrows from the quiver unless you have the additional materials to change the weight of the field points. (you'll come back to these for tuning at a later date, so note on the paper which angle they penetrated). if they are penetrating at an up/down angle, you can adjust your knocking point accordingly on your bow string to compensate for that.
you may find that only one or two arrows really make the grade. take those good arrows and shoot a couple more rounds with them. you may then again find that one shoots better than the other.
weigh, measure, spine test that arrow so that you have a record of what shoots best out of that bow. now you can attempt to make that same arrow based on your results. or you can purchase a set of arrows with those specifications and target practice with them to tune your abilities with that bow.
when you have arrows that are matched (or semi-matched) to your bow you can start to compensate for the grip/form/release/aiming errors and really start building your muscle memory for instinctive shooting.
there are a lot of other variables that you can employ, however, these are some quick things that you can easily try without cutting or re-fletching your arrows; and you will end up with valuable results from your testing.
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i recommend to start with a matched set of arrows for range practicing.
of course you'd have to find what set you need. through trial and error.
go through your current set (i'm assuming they are primitive arrows) and number them sequentially with a piece of masking tape on each one.
go and shoot a few rounds at your target from the same distance, preferably within 10 yards because it's less distance for the arrow to correct its flight.
really focus on your grip, your form and your release. take note note of which arrows get the closest to the bullseye. it may help to write down the results. also, take note of which arrows that penetrate the target at any left/right angle other than dead-on. you'll want to remove those arrows from the quiver unless you have the additional materials to change the weight of the field points. (you'll come back to these for tuning at a later date, so note on the paper which angle they penetrated). if they are penetrating at an up/down angle, you can adjust your knocking point accordingly on your bow string to compensate for that.
you may find that only one or two arrows really make the grade. take those good arrows and shoot a couple more rounds with them. you may then again find that one shoots better than the other.
weigh, measure, spine test that arrow so that you have a record of what shoots best out of that bow. now you can attempt to make that same arrow based on your results. or you can purchase a set of arrows with those specifications and target practice with them to tune your abilities with that bow.
when you have arrows that are matched (or semi-matched) to your bow you can start to compensate for the grip/form/release/aiming errors and really start building your muscle memory for instinctive shooting.
there are a lot of other variables that you can employ, however, these are some quick things that you can easily try without cutting or re-fletching your arrows; and you will end up with valuable results from your testing.
^ Outstanding advice
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Just shoot and enjoy.
It's far easy er to see results with compounds. Most people go through the compound thing first. And this isn't a bad thing. You can learn a lot about bow,arrows and yourself. Starting out with easy er compounds.
But not by far as enjoyable as when you see your own results using a traditional bow. You've mold your mussels to your brain extends to your bow your made.
With experience and time when you kill your first deer. You'll think why did I wast all those years shooting compounds. I've heard this to many times to remember them all.
Speed , close groups, all the advertisements, the hype. Is why most people give up quickly and go to or stay with compounds.
Nothing wrong with compounds it comes down to how much you want to put into it.
My only peeve with compounds is boys your missing out on the very best and enjoyable way to practice. That's just old stump shooting. I realize what happens to a 300 plus feet a second carbon exspess into a old hard wood stump.
It's just not as fun as just standing at the peg hammering the target over and over all evening across the back yard. Yea you can shoot 60,70 yards but is this really bow hunting. No it becomes shooting not hunting to me.
I've shoot 40 (all with in 20 yards) bucks unteen doe's. Longest I can remember is a doe at 22 yards.
Everyone I killed not my equipment. Mussles, my little mine and a bow and arrow I built, Dos'nt mean much to a compounder that just walked out of wallmart. Don't wait 10 years start enjoying shooting and leaning to shoot right now.
I've shot traditional over 30 years. If you need PM me I'll be glad to help you all I can.
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This is excellent advice...
i recommend to start with a matched set of arrows for range practicing.
of course you'd have to find what set you need. through trial and error.
go through your current set (i'm assuming they are primitive arrows) and number them sequentially with a piece of masking tape on each one.
go and shoot a few rounds at your target from the same distance, preferably within 10 yards because it's less distance for the arrow to correct its flight.
really focus on your grip, your form and your release. take note note of which arrows get the closest to the bullseye. it may help to write down the results. also, take note of which arrows that penetrate the target at any left/right angle other than dead-on. you'll want to remove those arrows from the quiver unless you have the additional materials to change the weight of the field points. (you'll come back to these for tuning at a later date, so note on the paper which angle they penetrated). if they are penetrating at an up/down angle, you can adjust your knocking point accordingly on your bow string to compensate for that.
you may find that only one or two arrows really make the grade. take those good arrows and shoot a couple more rounds with them. you may then again find that one shoots better than the other.
weigh, measure, spine test that arrow so that you have a record of what shoots best out of that bow. now you can attempt to make that same arrow based on your results. or you can purchase a set of arrows with those specifications and target practice with them to tune your abilities with that bow.
when you have arrows that are matched (or semi-matched) to your bow you can start to compensate for the grip/form/release/aiming errors and really start building your muscle memory for instinctive shooting.
there are a lot of other variables that you can employ, however, these are some quick things that you can easily try without cutting or re-fletching your arrows; and you will end up with valuable results from your testing.
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Compounds have all the components and gadgets to take most of the guesswork with form out of the equation. A draw stop when you hit your draw length. That's the most solid anchor you can have ! The weight also drops. Then the peep sight to line up with your sight pins so your sight picture is also the same every time. Then you have a mechanical release to take most of our release woes out of the equation. Then very fast arrow speeds and light arrows for flatter trajectories that are next to perfectly staight and each one identical. Lots of stuff to minimize the impact of both human and material error which is so huge for self bow/arrow shooters
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The funny thing is, if something isn't working right, then there is no point in shooting. My buddies rubber tube that lined up his peep sight broke off so his peep sight didn't line up at full draw. His day was over right there. Had to send it back to the shop to get it fixed which took a week or two.
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Compounds have all the components and gadgets to take most of the guesswork with form out of the equation. A draw stop when you hit your draw length. That's the most solid anchor you can have ! The weight also drops. Then the peep sight to line up with your sight pins so your sight picture is also the same every time. Then you have a mechanical release to take most of our release woes out of the equation. Then very fast arrow speeds and light arrows for flatter trajectories that are next to perfectly staight and each one identical. Lots of stuff to minimize the impact of both human and material error which is so huge for self bow/arrow shooters
All of the above takes control of the shot away from the archer and forces him to rely on the "bow". If he misses its probably the bows fault. This is why I call them arrow shooting machines rather than bows. But like I said, they do a good job when functioning properly.
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Soooo much more to shooting wheelies than that. Yes they have 3-4 reference points, yes they have sights, yes they are lightning fast (which coincidentally amplifies tiny errors x10). You still have to keep your bow arm up and follow through every shot, you still have to have a clean release every shot, you still have to be on target every shot, your grip has to be perfect, the bows cant has t be perfect. Just because the gadgets are there doesn't mean it all falls into place with a snap of your fingers. It takes every bit as much concentration to shoot them consistently as it does stick bows, in their own regards. If you follow through, have a clean release and are on target with a stick bow you can smack targets all day to. Problem is, few of us get all that going on every shot. So we search for arrows in the weeds ;)
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They quite literally shoot with training wheels xD pins, scoped dod sights, windage adjustments, bubble levels, trigers...damn near a rifle.
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I'm sure your vast archery experience told you that. Or, you have read it too many times from other people who also never tried to get scary accurate with one.
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All I'm saying is that there are a lot of things on a compound to smooth out the learning curve. I'm not saying someone can master the compound bow in a week and that getting scary accurate with one doesn't take dedication. I would argue it will take significantly less time to get 5 inch groups at 30 yards with a compound than with a self bow and self arrows.
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Sorry, I just get testy. 30-06 rifles will dot "I"'s at a 1000 yards, but few rifleman can. That's my point.
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They quite literally shoot with training wheels xD pins, scoped dod sights, windage adjustments, bubble levels, trigers...damn near a rifle.
I call them arm powered pistols
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You haters shouldn't use the compound bows attributes as your excuse for poor instinctive shooting.
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Be nice Chris.... :) ;)
DBar
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Well dangit Bill! if a guy hasn't done it, don't tell me how easy it is!
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I have done it and it ant as easy as some make it sound, that is for sure, BUT it does take less time and practice to master [if you ever mater it] than shooting a self bow instinctively, especially at longer distance. ;) I have nothing against compounds , to each there own, now cross bows in my bow season, WELL just don't get me started or in line muzzle loaders in the our primitive season , no problem using them just keep um in riffle season where the be lone. >:( Get out the pop corn. ;) ;D ;D ;D
Pappy
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Well dangit Bill! if a guy hasn't done it, don't tell me how easy it is!
:) I'm with ya buddy ;)
DBar
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I have never shot a modern compound bow so I don't know what is involved in becoming an accurate shot with one. I was witness to something last year that was an eye opener for me. My father-in-law decided that he would bow hunt some after about a five year break from it. We were going to shoot a little bit before the season started. He opened this huge hard case and withdrew his compound bow. He walked out and shot five arrows into a two inch group at about thirty-five yards without a warm up. His next group was a little tighter. I was impressed. It takes daily practice for me to do that at 15 yards..... I don't know what he went through to attain that kind of ability, but it sure wasn't hard for him to get ready for the next season. ;) The only thing he was concerned about was being strong enough to pull it back the first half of the draw after such a long lay off. I was only jealous a little while. His rig cost well over a thousand dollars and I entered the woods with a grand total of maybe 75 cents worth of B-50 as a total investment. I killed a deer that day and somehow he did not. ;D The cheap skate in me loves stuff like that. There are so few archery hunters of any description entering our ranks that I am glad to see anyone getting into hunting. Whatever a person chooses to use that is a legal weapon suits me just fine. I know what rings my tuning fork, but to each his own. I just pray that our hunting traditions don't suffer the same fate as they have in some other places in the world.
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Well said Howard!
DBar
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I definitely could have bought a few top of the line compound setups with all the money I've spent on tools, wood, points, string material, feathers...blah..blah...
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Maybe.... but how many bows did you make for that investment?
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Haha, I got 28 shooters out of 46 total attemps. So I guess I'm doing all right. ☺
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I agree ,once you learn to shoot one well it is kind of like riding a bike you never really forget, you may be a little rusty but still can shoot pretty good, but like riding a bike it does take some time to learn the first time. ;)
Pappy
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I'm beginning to regret the "spits on the ground" comment. I hope I didn't offend anyone. It was an attempt at humor modeled after the "Corner Gas" TV show. I have nothing against compounds. I've never shot one. They are an amazing piece of design work and I love a good machine. I'm just stuck in a corner of archery that only includes wood.
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I won't speak for anyone else, quite frankly I rarely speak well for myself, so it ain't fair for me to speak for others...
I started bow huntin with a used compound. Wore the bearings out of it and snapped a limb. Bought a used PSE carrera and shot the fire out of it. Hunted with it for 6-8 years and finally realized I wasn't being challenged anymore. I woke up after I was standing over an 11 pt I had shot at 50 yds. Kinda made me take a step back. Wasn't proud of that shot at all.
Started making bows and challenging myself to see how much commercialism I could eliminate from my hunting life. As it turns out, all those props and crutches I thought I needed are mostly just substitutes for real skill. I am pleased to know that I can hunt without them, but sometimes I will still use them. I try hard not to look down my ugly nose at others and at the same time be a good role model for true woodsmanship.
I enjoy it again. I enjoy the building, the preparation, the practice, the community, the hunt, and the rewards are far greater when I know that I didn't buy my success.
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Well put Scott
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I have to agree with PD that even with all the shooting aids built into a compound (let off, sights, peep sights, release, etc) it still takes a lot of practice and work on form to become a consistently good shooter with one. That said, I think just having any kind of pin as a reference point, esp. for elevation, is a huge advantage. When I first made the switch from compound to a recurve, I taped a bobby pin to the back of the riser. That was a big help for me while I worked on my form. Of course, the hard part is eventually having to take it off and doing it without the crutch. The satisfaction of shooting nice groups bare bow can't be beat IMO, but it took me a few months shooting 3 or 4 times a week to get there. Since I got into making bows and enjoy that more than shooting them, though, I'm back to being a mediocre shot. Oh well, maybe I'll get a bobby pin and start over one of these days.
I'm not into tournament shooting, but I've read about the NFAA 300 rounds. The gist of it is if you shoot 60 arrows into the center ring (3 1/8" diameter) from 20 yards, you'll get a perfect score of 300. Sounds tough to me, but you'd think a really good shooter could do it. It has been done quite a few times with sights. As far as I know no one has ever done it bare bow.
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I put little elevation marks on my self bows. I like having some sort of reference for different distances. Its not out of the realm of possibility that a scratch or a small mark on the limb could have been used by a primitive hunter. Unlikely, but possible
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I like that idea, Bubbles. Gonna do that with one of my bows.
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I shot a compound bow many years ago, in the early seventies, when they were first appearing on scene. I was impressed. But I still preferred my Bear Grizzly recurve. I too have nothing against a compound bow. They truly are mechanical marvels. But they have their cons, and pros, as does the self bows, and FG bows. The compounds, are faster, easier to pull to full draw, and hold it there. They have longer range, which may or may not be a good thing. They have a seemingly unending array of options, and add on products. But they are heavier, than a self bow, or FG bow. They have to have a mechanical device to put a new string on. You have to go to the shop to have it installed. They need to be tuned. They are noisier, than a self, or FG bow. I read in a hunting mag. about a guy in a tree stand, who saw great trophy buck coming under his stand, and when he went to nock his arrow, the razor edged blade sliced his string, and the resulting noise, made the buck hit the trail, for places unknown. The guy had to go to town, to have his string replaced. You can carry a couple of strings for a self, or FG bow, in your pocket. You can buy, or make your own arrows, from wood dowels, shoots, river cane, or boo. You are limited to arrows, in a compound. In my opinion, it is like comparing a muzzle loader to a modern rifle. You can make longer shots, and have a multitude of calibers, and bullet choices, but with the muzzle loader, you are limited to range, and calibers, and bullet types. But, you have to be a better hunter, and the satisfaction, is greater with the ML. Because you used better hunting skill. Yep the compound is far superior, to the self, and FG bows. But it takes something away from feeling of connecting with our past, and ancestors, and their method of hunting. Would they have dropped their self bows, and adopted the compound if it was available, I would bet the farm on it. But there are those, who prefer the flint lock to the cap and ball, both take skill and practice. The compound takes skill and practice. But there is just something about a self bow, that you made yourself,or FG that is more satisfying, than using a compound. If I had made a successful 50 yd. shot, and collected an 11 point buck, I would definitely feel proud. It was still with a bow, not like similar to our ancestors, but none the less a bow, and arrow. I would not feel bad about it at all. I hunt with rifles, and shotguns, and enjoy it. It still takes practice and skill. But just a little more with a ML. So don't feel bad about spreading out your arrows, on the target. Like the others have already told you, most likely it is the arrow, or a combination, or form, not holding the elbow of the arm up high enough, balance, and the arrow,etc. Some people are compound snobs, some are self bow snobs. It is what it is, so do what you like, and besides, you made your outfit, and did not have some unknown stranger make it. In time with practice, and good arrows, you will be successful in hunting with your own gear, and that will make for a far superior memory, in my opinion. If you offended anyone, it is because they chose to be. Enjoy your bow, and work with it, and ignore the naysayers, and have fun.
Wayne
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I have to say that the amount of thought and honest debate that happens on this site is one of the reasons I signed up.