Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Flight Bows => Topic started by: Badger on September 10, 2015, 12:33:31 pm
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Something I noticed this weekend that may or may not be worth looking at further. Small samplings are not always good to draw conclusions from but I feel do sometimes point us in the right direction. I noticed with my D/R bows they tend to accelerate quickly in the last few inches, I also struggle the most with them in getting good flight. D shaped bows seem to be a tad slower but much more consistent in clean arrows comming out of the bow. The big recurves accelerate from further back in the bow and also seem more prone to clean arrow releases. I really hate building recurves so this trend disturbed me LOL. The one bow I am wishing I used in competition but didnt was a bow with a fully curved deflex/ reflex with no net reflex behind the bow. It was moderately fast but did seem to give me my cleanest flight in practice. It had a traingular shape when braced. Back to the drawing board!
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Badger-
could it be that we rarely look at clean release as an attribute of the bow it's self? I know as an archer I assume that I have to improve my release when I do not like what I see with the arrow flight (and probably rightly so as my form always need improvement)..... or we look to arrow problems or tuning..... etc.
accuracy is the sum of all the different factors that create dispersion, and although flight shooting is not focused on accuracy per se, the same problems that cause dispersion, can be included as likely suspects for poor flight shots.
can't help but think how often I have heard repeated that an archer likes a little set as it "makes for a sweeter shooter" . I wonder why? maybe one of those intuitive things that cannot be proved or unproved.
willie
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I think the release is very critical, in the past I have concentrated more on generating more speed in my releases, now days I am thinking more of trying to get clean releases. I have been using nocks that are on the loose side. I intend to do some paper shooting and see how nock fit affects arrow flight.
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I think the release is very critical, in the past I have concentrated more on generating more speed in my releases, now days I am thinking more of trying to get clean releases. I have been using nocks that are on the loose side. I intend to do some paper shooting and see how nock fit affects arrow flight.
I would like to see your results on this Steve
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Do you shoot two under one over? How hard would it be to develop a pinch grip?
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Yes two under 1 over, I have tried the pinch grip but can't manage 50# with it. I am starting wonder now what type of releases were used prior to about 1950.
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In th opening post I read.....
clean arrows comming out of the bow
clean arrow releases
cleanest flight in practice
Badger
Do we need a better word or phrase to describe what you are suggesting here? I thought that the point you were making in the opening post was about how various limb types,and the way they tend to return home, may affect the arrow differently, at the moment the nock leaves the string. All other factors being equal of course. I am afraid that my using the term "clean release" has been confusing and I apologize. perhaps "release" should be left to talk about the loosing of the string,
unnocking? denocking? sorry if I am not very well versed in flight shooting terms
willie
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Willie, I was making the point you suggested in the opening post but I am all over the place on this issue. One day I am looking at the arrow pass, next day the method or release, next day something else. I really haven't come up with any way to resolve it yet. The flight arrows break so easily when shot into targets that too much time goes into making sacrificial arrows for tuning purposes and sometimes nothing is resolved. I need better methods here. I wish I had access to a slow motion camera. I am wondering if flu flu's on flight arrows might help with the coming out of the bow tuning. I doubt a flight arrow would fly over 40 yards with a flu flu type fletching.
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Badger-
so you would spend more time testing if you could shoot your flight arrows in the backyard?
How much range do you have to work with?
willie
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Perhaps light weight carbons?
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Badger-
so you would spend more time testing if you could shoot your flight arrows in the backyard?
How much range do you have to work with?
willie
I have to drive a couple of hundred miles for a full sized flight range, I can find a place for 200 yard shots within 1/2 hour of my house. Obly 15 yards in my backyard.
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Badger
I have had good luck with soft snow as a backstop. I know you don't have a lot of that stuff where you are, but for the backyard maybe a target box with something of that consistency?
as for the camera, wasn't there a thread about home brewed high speed photography recently?? maybe with a "sound trigger"?
willie
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Willie, I have a friend who says he can do something with strobe lights not sure how well that would work, I checked with a studio one time that did high speed work and they wanted something like $5,000 for a session. I have my eyes out for guys who just like to do it. I will buy a plane ticket if I find someone but thats about my limit.
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Willie, I have a friend who says he can do something with strobe lights not sure how well that would work, I checked with a studio one time that did high speed work and they wanted something like $5,000 for a session. I have my eyes out for guys who just like to do it. I will buy a plane ticket if I find someone but thats about my limit.
I'll talk to my friend who is a professor at Utah State university. Next time you are around Utah maybe he can help you out. Here is a link to his videos.
http://www.splashlab.org/ (http://www.splashlab.org/)
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Willie, I have a friend who says he can do something with strobe lights not sure how well that would work, I checked with a studio one time that did high speed work and they wanted something like $5,000 for a session. I have my eyes out for guys who just like to do it. I will buy a plane ticket if I find someone but thats about my limit.
I'll talk to my friend who is a professor at Utah State university. Next time you are around Utah maybe he can help you out. Here is a link to his videos.
http://www.splashlab.org/ (http://www.splashlab.org/)
Jo, that would be fantastic, I would happily make a special trip for that
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Might want to check out the Casio ZR200, it can shoot up to 1000FPS and won't break the bank. You could also try some kind of triggered camera like Willie suggests, but the best shots with that method are in a dark room and triggering the flash which is probably impractical.
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Steve,
Thinking on this thread, there is an experiment you could do that may provide some insight. Using the 3 different styles of bows you talked about, place each on the tiller tree and when taking them to full draw, for each inch of tip travel, mark the distance the draw travels. This gives a relative idea of the string acceleration from full draw to brace. Not sure how this would affect arrow design, but it could provide some insite without the need of a highspeed camera.
Ken
Actually, I thought of something else. Do a force-draw curve where the force increment is constant. Then if you scale the tip travel-draw curve so that it matches the force-draw curve you can compare the 2 different draw curves and see the disparity between the energy vs distance traveled that is being imparted to the arrow. This may tell you something about the "harshness" of the bow.
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Ken, there does seem to be a connection between arrow flight and force draw curves. I would actually like to see the arrow in slow motion and see if I could do anything about the arrow pass area or my release that might help. The same bows will shoot fine with heavier arrows and more spine. Learning how to shoot marginally spined arrows without detuning a bow seems to be the challenge.
I feel like if I could do a little practice each week it would be like attending 52 flight shoots as far as experience goes. Lack of places to practice could eventually be the death of this sport here. Farmers are all afraid of law suits or just see no benefit to allowing someone to use their land. All the desert areas have either too much foliage or rock hard ground that light arrows will not stick in.
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Steve just some food for thought provoking.
1 A pinch release from between thumb and forefinger can give a more consistent release
2. Kick your limbs sideways for a centershot without a cut out
3. Use some Styrofoam ahead of the target butt to slow down your arrows before impact so you don't have such a risk of damage to your arrows ( this is what we do for flint heads to not damage them and should also work for you)
You may have to play with the thicknesses and distance ahead of the butt for your tiny arrows but it is better than destroying all the work that goes into the arrows.
no clue if any of this will help you but may get your creative juices flowing.
Wish I had time to explore this with you but need to try to stay on the task at hand for now
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Steve just some food for thought provoking.
1 A pinch release from between thumb and forefinger can give a more consistent release
2. Kick your limbs sideways for a centershot without a cut out
3. Use some Styrofoam ahead of the target butt to slow down your arrows before impact so you don't have such a risk of damage to your arrows ( this is what we do for flint heads to not damage them and should also work for you)
You may have to play with the thicknesses and distance ahead of the butt for your tiny arrows but it is better than destroying all the work that goes into the arrows.
no clue if any of this will help you but may get your creative juices flowing.
Wish I had time to explore this with you but need to try to stay on the task at hand for now
#2 I am thinking along these lines. Some of my best shots were from bows with left favoring limbs.
#1 I have tried the pinch release 40# is the most I can manage this with unless there is some technique I haven't learned? Pinch release would be ideal. I have kind of a radical release, maybe thats why left favoring limbs seem to fly so much better.
I will give that Styrofoam a try, I just made up a batch of real nice arrows and I am curious how they will come out of the bow
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My other half's first primitive bow was an ash flatbow. It was well made but unremarkable except that it would match a large range of arrow spines well without any trouble. I put that down to the fact that when viewed from the belly side, and shot by a left hander ( her and me both) the general front/back profile of the bow was an S-shape, particularly at the handle and fades. This wasnt engineered in, it was a result of following the grain when making the bow. Because of the S shape, the string centred across the bow in such a way that there was quite a cente shot effect. The string over the handle/fades looked like a dollar symbol. Perhaps that falls into the point 2 above?
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You may have to make special nocks to get to the higher draw weights
Bulbous nocks are easer for me and seem to have been favored by many indigenous folks too
I never have done the flight arrows but if you are barrel tapering just leave the self nock area thick to form your bulb for pinching, at least that is how I typicaly do them
it really does not take much to make a big difference in gripping power
also pinch between your thumb and the large knuckle of your finger rather than between knuckles or small knuckle
if you do want to do self nocks horn might be a good choice, maybe Japp would fix you up he likes making nocks from horn, not sure if he has done them for pinch grip
have fun and dream on
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just pull her back and let it fly is what I have found best so far.. Sometimes you might short draw but even then the relase is pretty clean. But this shooting a long ways is all new to me.
Arvin