Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Flintknapping => Topic started by: Stringman on December 02, 2015, 10:35:32 pm
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So after talking with a couple guys, an idea is forming and I thought I'd start a thread to see where the interest is. Don mentioned bringing some chert to heat treat at the classic this year. I said it would be tough to get it in and out of the ground in time to still be able to knap it. So....
Is anybody else interested in doing a community heat treat at Pappy's?
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Count me in, so long as I'm not in the OR or on a drip. :laugh:
Spring is a ways away. If time is of the essence and you want
to heat the rocks abo style. Try do design a pizza style oven
so you can slip different type rocks into different temp compartments.
Most rock can be treated in 8-12 hours imo at temps of 500 degrees
or so. Incuding cool down.
Zuma
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Glad to have ya Zuma, I'm not sure about the details of the pit just yet. Will was gonna talk to Pappy and get clearance from the tower before we proceed. Also, he sorta volunteered to oversee the operation so I would hope we could come up with a way to do it without taking a ton of his time.
Otherwise, we need to see how many are wanting to be involved before deciding on a plan. If it works out, this might be good material to pass around the pit and create a shadow box of points for the raffle.
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Some folks are usually there the week before the Classic starts. That should give you plenty of time to set it all up and get some rocks cooked and cooled.
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Sounds like fun! There are some musts for it to work. Material should probably be in preforms, if you know which ones cook at a higher temp, they should be identified so pit placement can be determined. We all can send our preforms with an identifying mark early to Will in "if it fits it ships" boxes. My greatest FIND was an abandoned cooking pit left uncovered with my brother. Some of the material in the pit changed colors when fired and I had always thought that material came from someplace else. Joe
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Two good points:
With folks showing up a week before hand, the fire pit could be assembled on Monday and then left alone till, say Thursady and opened in front of the group.
All flakes or performs that are sent should be marked to show temp ranges required.
Pulling this off could be super cool with a dozen different cherts in the pit!
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we could use sand to control the temp of the different rock types
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a couple things to think about :
1. we need sand
2. we need a way to cover the pit after the firing in the event of rain this cover should have enough of a gap so that air can move into the pit.
3. if we decide on sand then we could indicate the depth we would like each piece to be placed this will control the temp each piece comes to generally.
4. As the chert arrives it could be sorted according to depth and layered in as the pit is built.
just a couple thoughts and count me in on the ordeal.
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Though I don't get to go to that event, it sounds like an enjoyable venture. It does not have to take a lot of time to fire treat. I have done it once, and took them out with bare hands 2 days later. The cook was perfect.
WA
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All great ideas. :)
One of my thoughts would be to have a large fire with three
sides stone or the like.
Have a piece of roofing metal on top of rows of bricks.
Making long narrow compartments or revetments.
Of course this requires metal (not so abo). Now with a continuous
large amount of coals on top of the roofing metal you could slip
different cherts into different compartments
and rake coals to heat and rake them away to cool.
The preforms could be in baking pans or cookie sheets covered
in the amount of sand thought to be required. From my experience
the crucial temps are the high ones 300-500 degrees.
Just a thought. Using smaller fire wood would help keep things more stable.
This way you could take some out and put more in. like a Pizza oven. >:D
Wouldn't the ancients laugh. >:D
Zuma
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Well if it is not ABO maybe a small kiln would be the trick. It could be placed in a covered area and it would only take 24 or so hours. Maybe something running on 110.
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Both true, but I think we should stick to the more traditional fire pit method. I don't have a problem with using tin to keep water off the pit, but the pizza oven sounds a little more complex than is necessary. (Zuma, if you do develop that concept I'd be interested in hearing your results. Personally, it sounds like your climb and descend rates might be too quick without some very tedious fire watching.)
So far we have:
Zuma
Iowabow
Stringman
Wolfwatcher (Joe)
Don Tower
Outbackbob
Patrick (jackcrafty)
-- interested in sending chert flakes to be heated. Let's see how many are in before we determine fire pit logistics. If the variety of chert is not too broad, we might not need much pit manipulation to get decent results.
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If Pappy agrees to this project, then a cover of some kind could be figured out. Sand is OK if it or the dirt is dry otherwise a drying time is required. I say go as much as possible ABO. I have a bunch of Texas Chert from the old days. If it has iron or copper oxides it will turn colors when cooked. I have found that digging up the cooked spalls is more fun for me than xmas!
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If Pappy agrees to this project, then a cover of some kind could be figured out. Sand is OK if it or the dirt is dry otherwise a drying time is required. I say go as much as possible ABO. I have a bunch of Texas Chert from the old days. If it has iron or copper oxides it will turn colors when cooked. I have found that digging up the cooked spalls is more fun for me than xmas!
Totally agree!
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You know in all in. I'm planning on getting earlier than last year. I'll raise my hand for helping out. I could bring some Texas spalls. I think a traditional fire pit for treating. Local stone around here only needs 350-400*.
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You're added. I figured you were in, just waiting for you to make it official. ;D
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I'm planning on getting there a week early again. And I have a small kiln as long as we have the right plug in.
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Scott, put me in, I got some flint ridge that I mined earlier this yr that needs some heat, Sure would like to see the colors on some of this, Bob
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I guess deciding what cherts to cook would be good.
Perhaps ones with similar recipies or figuring out a way
to do longer and hotter times.
LOl I wouldn't do the oven if there is time and all the preforms
would like the same cookin times and temps.
From my experience PA and VA jaspers, Edwards, and Flint River
cook up similar. Also course English and the FL coral I tried.
Zuma
I wouldn't fight anyone who would like to make a list but
I would give it a try if you all are willing to give your input
on what you-all know.
Zuma
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Hmmm... now that's an idea right there. I'll bring some for the pot-rock luck. :)
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I'm planning on getting there a week early again. And I have a small kiln as long as we have the right plug in.
Think we're gonna try to keep it in one fire pit if possible, Eddie. Sure wouldn't mind if you threw some corral in the kitty though. >:D
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Hmmm... now that's an idea right there. I'll bring some for the pot-rock luck. :)
Now I wish I woulda thought of that before!
"A Classic Rock-luck"
Gotcha Patrick!
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So far we have:
Zuma
Iowabow
Stringman
Wolfwatcher (Joe)
Don Tower
Outbackbob
Patrick (jackcrafty)
Mullet (Eddie)
Do we put a limit on how many? Let it self regulate? Obviously some are sending more than others, but it seems we could run into a sizable pit if not careful.
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So far we have:
Zuma
Iowabow
Stringman
Wolfwatcher (Joe)
Don Tower
Outbackbob
Patrick (jackcrafty)
Do we put a limit on how many? Let it self regulate? Obviously some are sending more than others, but it seems we could run into a sizable pit if not careful.
just build a bigger fire.
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Here, here! In accordance with Roger's Rules, I nominate Stringman
Chairman of the Board. O:)
Zuma
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Blah, blah, it wasn't even my idea! >:D
But whatever, my first action as president of this club is to designate that all monies collected are to be deposited in my bank account. :o
More regulations forthwith...
8)
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Blah, blah, it wasn't even my idea! >:D
But whatever, my first action as president of this club is to designate that all monies collected are to be deposited in my bank account. :o
More regulations forthwith...
8)
Is this a nonprofit. As president you can't handle the money you need a treasurer.
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Scott, I'll try to get some coral. The river is really high and we just keep getting rain.
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That would be awesome Eddie! I'll add you to the list.
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Rain? At the Classic? Surely you jest!! That is just a silly rumor planted by those who want a better parking place. If you have pontoon boat with a cabin on it, that would be ideal. ;) Oh, and a good anchor!
Wayne
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Sounds like a great Idea to me, [Rock Luck] love that. I always love these added features at the Classic, that is what makes it special. I have tin and rocks to put around the pit and sand shouldn't be a problem. Just need to figure where, I think close to the napping pit/bow area would be best. I will put Bill on a fact finding detail this weekend to scope out the area. It would be nice to know some kind of size hole we are talking about/length/width and depth.
I will do what I can but as yall know the week before I am pretty busy as is most of our members so all the early birds that show up we will just have to put them to work. Let me know how it is going and what I can do to prepare as early as possible and I will see it gets done. ;) :) By the way you know if you do a shadow box Miss Joanie will win it. >:D ;) She has 3 in our den. :)
Pappy
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Pappy, we surely appreciate your generosity in allowing us to do this. I agree that this could be a fun feature to this years Classic.
Now for some logistics. Can we find some consensus on the pit? Several of us have done it (I've only done it a couple times.) The diameter should probably be kept in or around 2', otherwise a fire large enough to heat the chert is gonna be enormous. Anybody want to discuss the details of pit construction? Keep it simple? I've heard some talk of preburning and mixing the charcoal into the dirt bedding. Could this also be accomplished with several scoops of ash from Pappy's fire pit?
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String
I would suggest finding out what quantity and dimensions
of preforms you are gonna cook. My understanding is a
single layer without touching each other.
If you were to say a day for a treatment then you could figure fire size.
If you are gong to attempt to treat a lot of rock your going to need a big fire
area wise. Or better yet several smaller fires.???
Zuma
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I am not saying that I'll be there this year but if I do get the opp. I'll be there. Patrick you should carpool with Tower and I. The pit should be near the wood pile. To keep from waistng space, we should uses spalls or bifaces. Put any stone ya want, 5-10 per person depending on how much there is. Stringman and Tower know where to put them depending on temp needed. If ya want a couple stones in the fire but won't be able to get there a week early then send some bifaces to the president Stringman or someone going early. (Just an idea) Small flat rate should work, mark your rock with marker or something if ya have to do that. Might need a sign that says "cooking flint don't add wood". That's all is got.
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Coupla good points there. No way to know how much material we will get, although if some send more than is needed maybe not all of the material gets put in the pit. It kinda looks like maybe we should shoot for sending 3-6 good flakes/performs that are an inch or under in thickness.
The "several smaller fires" theory is a good one, but I would prefer not to overburden the generosity of our hosts. So Let's try to keep this to one fire pit.
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I wonder if metal type tubs would help?? lower part of a 50 gallon drum.
Old weber grills etc. maybe the fire could cook some yummies too. >:D
Zuma
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Scott I'd like to contribute to the endeavor, but I'm not all sure that I'll be there. There's a possibility that I'll have a speaking engagement that same weekend in San Diego. I won't know for sure until the end of January. Either way, I'd be happy to contribute. Josh
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Glad you chimed in Josh. Was figuring you would be interested.
I've been kinda thinking about the handling of the material. Does it make more sense to ship everything to Pappy's to be thrown in the pit from there? Or is it smarter to ship to an individual to be sorted and in some cases spalled down to size before the event. I'm kinda getting the sense that I'm being presumptuous to assume a club member should coordinate this whole affair, so let's talk about volunteers from within this group.
We need to determine a pit configuration, as well as a timeline for firing, and obviously someone to oversee the operation. If we assume this process to be a 2-3 day thing, it's conceivable to imagine someone who arrives early in the week can lay the rock out and start the fire on Monday. Adding fuel to the fire several times throughout the day should be plenty and then a final feed in the evening before letting it all burn down. After that there should be nothing done to it until we break it open on Thurs. Am I close?!?
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So far we have:
Zuma
Iowabow
Stringman
Wolfwatcher (Joe)
Don Tower
Outbackbob
Patrick (jackcrafty)
Mullet (Eddie)
Gun Doc
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I have done this many times and have found that there are some things that are necessary to consider. One thing I know for sure is that a whole cobble can be cooked as well as spalls, it just takes up more room in the pit. Knowing within reason about what temp each piece requires is important as placement in the pit is paramount to a good result. Its simple: a stone that fires around 450 needs to be placed deep or on the outer edge of the coals and say a piece of Texas chert or Eddie's coral need to be higher in the pit and central to the main coal bed. Its better to have a larger pit than a smaller one as each spall needs some room. Establishing a uniform bed of coals helps to have a successful cook! The dirt or sand needs to be dry to start with and keep the coals protected from the dew and rain as they can ruin a cook. I suggest that each person should try to put his ID and approximate heat requirement on each spall. Now if Burn Up could wonder by the fire once in a while I am sure there would be plenty of hot coals. I also think the pit should be located away from the main area of activities. Joe
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I should be there early and have heat tread rock quite a lot. Most of the rock I cook down here is simple. I put all of the preforms in a hole about a foot to foot and a half deep, small ones on the bottom, big ones on the top, cover with sand and put 2, 20# bags of charcoal on top till it cools down. Works for coral, Fl. chert and Texas chert and Coastal Plains.
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Thanks Joe for that explanation. I agree our material should be marked so that placement is simplified.
Eddie, the charcoal idea might be easier than trying to maintain uniformity with wood. Are you interested in taking the lead on the firing?
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Sure. If someone will dig the hole, I hate shovels.
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Perfect! would you prefer the rock is sent to you, or to Pappy's?
Also, does anyone have a shadow box to donate that we can put the finished pieces in?
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Pappy's, or better then that, Will's. Pappy is too busy weeks before the Classic.
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Check me off the list String.
Sadly the posse attitude amongst the members
here has soured me. BIG TIME.
I hope they make it till adulthood.
Zuma
Eddie is a damn good cook.
Zuma
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So far we have:
Iowabow
Stringman
Wolfwatcher (Joe)
Don Tower
Outbackbob
Patrick (jackcrafty)
Mullet (Eddie)
Gun Doc
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This looks good Scott. I think we should refresh this post in late February to add and confirm the participants.
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Looks like this is shaping up to be something very cool. :)
Pappy
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Got a handful of high ridge bifaces to pick from. These are between 3"-6" so they should fit easily in the pit. These could come out with some very nice color.
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s670/cotton7611/F9EBCE71-E2F5-44A3-83AD-997B4489CBE0_zpsuxv4fytk.jpg) (http://s1311.photobucket.com/user/cotton7611/media/F9EBCE71-E2F5-44A3-83AD-997B4489CBE0_zpsuxv4fytk.jpg.html)
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Didn't read all the replies. Zuma you have a good idea but moving heated stone out of the burn isn't a good idea. Cool down with no air is most important. The Pizza idea can be changed up . Move the coals and fire around like slices of the pie! Letting early cook slowly ramp down.
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Those look good, Scott.
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Ttt
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I'll also bring clean, bags of pure sand with me to cover everything. I have pallets of it at work.
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Eddie, do you prefer to use charcoal for the fuel?
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Had a follow up conversation with Joe the other day and in the end he decided to ship his rock to me. He isn't confident that he will make it this year, but still wanted to contribute so I told him I would process his rock and send it to the next person when we decide who that is.
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s670/cotton7611/0059A24F-495D-4F7F-BCBA-87D3BBA96A7C_zpsygmk4bhj.jpg) (http://s1311.photobucket.com/user/cotton7611/media/0059A24F-495D-4F7F-BCBA-87D3BBA96A7C_zpsygmk4bhj.jpg.html)
He also thought to make copies of a heat treating booklet he's had for a few years and sent that for me to hand out at the classic. This appears to be authored by Waldorf and although I haven't read it yet, should be very helpful for those who don't yet fully understand the heating process. I will have it with me at the classic so just let me know if you want one.
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s670/cotton7611/A22C2F85-924A-48DD-81BA-9C75585BECC4_zps4eykgc7n.jpg) (http://s1311.photobucket.com/user/cotton7611/media/A22C2F85-924A-48DD-81BA-9C75585BECC4_zps4eykgc7n.jpg.html)
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I learned from J B Solberger years ago that often times a full sized rock will cook at a lower themp than its spalls so I hope you fellows will try a couple complete rocks. It has worked for me in the past. The heat treated Texas rock he used to send to me would change colors depending what oxides it contained. I used to find a lot of chips that were a completely different color than any local material. When I finally started cooking the local jasper it would change into the color I always found in the chipping grounds. It really makes me sad that I will have to miss this year's classic so am asking all you guys to have a good time for me! Joe
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I'll leave some of the coral whole, Joe just to try it.
Scott, I got this from Cowboy years ago and it has worked for me until I got a kiln. A twenty # bag of charcoal all night seems to work really good for the lesser cherts and coral. We do have some coral that has to be heated at higher Temp's but it doesn't knap as well to me.
This is the way he has done it or his Texas rock.
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Getting close fellers! Hope you all have your spalls ready to send.
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I did, but couldn't help myself when Parnell spent the weekend. I ran a batch of coral and Washington Agate through the kiln. I still have coral to spall, though.
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Yall be sure and let me know if this is still on and where we want the pit/size and depth and anything else I need to know to have it ready. Just a little over a month till the fire gets started. ???
Pappy
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Not real sure who's all still interested, but I will be sending some rock and I have some from Joe. Pappy, if you'll give us your address we can send it ahead and it will be ready for Eddie when he gets there. Anyone else who wants to, can send their rock ahead or plan on being there Monday when Eddie builds the pit. That will give it 3 days to work and we can open it on Thursday in front of a bigger crowd. Whatever gets pulled from the ground can be worked in the pit and hopefully we can have some nice pieces to fill a display box for the raffle table.
Won't be long now!!
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Eddie was still talking about this when I saw him last week. I'm planning on arriving Thursday, this year. I'm going to talk to him and see if I can contribute.
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Cool , wondered if this was still on. Mark P. Baggett / 4435 Ashland city Rd. Clarksville, TN. 37043.
I will get it to the Cabin from there. NO the P in my name ant for Pappy. ;) ;D ;D ;D
Pappy
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Sounds good. I'll have some stuff shipped for the effort. I'm gonna talk to Eddie and see what he think would be cool for the experiment.
P ain't for Pappy?! What?! I'd figure you grew up as M. Pappy Baggett...Ha!
Let me guess...Percival? ;D
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He does look like a Percival, doesn't he Steve. ;)
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I'm still in. I will gather some spalls & get them out
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I hate to say this, but unless something miraculous with the weather and work I'm not going to make it this year. I have an airboat job I've been trying to finish since Dec. 15 an with the El Nino weather and cold fronts every weekend I haven't been able to finish it. Now I have two more jobs due, also with the airboat.
I've been talking to Parnel and Bonepile about everything and I know Roger heat treats the same way I do. But I can still send some coral up with someone, treated or untreated or mail it . Sorry guys. This will be the first Classic I've missed since I started going.
Patb, you better reserve my camp spot.
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Well dadgummit, Eddie! I'm sorry to hear that. Miracles still happen, so we'll wait and see.
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I hope so, Scott.
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So have we got an alternant Plan ?? I know several that will be there early so shouldn't be a problem, we just need to know who will take care of it. :) Any more nappers coming in early that might know what they are doing ?
Pappy
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Wish I could say I could get there early to bring sand and help out. I'm Thursday afternoon.
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I'll guard it with my life, Eddie! ;)
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It's easy for most Texas Cherts and Florida coral. I'll send the coral by mail. Just dig a pit about a foot deep and maybe 36" around, depending on how much rock you have. Place the small spalls on the bottom and the larger ones on top of them and cover with play sand. They sell it at all of the big box stores. Cover it all about 2-3" thick and open the side of a 20# bag of charcoal length wise and soak it with starter fluid or Pappy's special fire starter he keeps under the cabinet in the shop. let it go till you can remove everything without burning your bare hands. Just make sure the sand is covered with hot charcoal. Ezee, Peeze, to borrow from Bonepile.
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I know play sand transfers heat really well, but I've always used the dirt from the pit I've dug. It's always worked great for me. If play sand can't be found.
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I may have the sand, I will look, Jesse done some several years ago, if not I know I have dirt. :o ;D
If no one else get there early I will see that it gets done. :) I always have several around the week before that will help. :)
Pappy
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Whichever it is it needs to be dry.
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Just got our case in from Chris at Hatchet creek cases. He was super generous to donate this case for the raffle table, now we just need to fill it up!
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s670/cotton7611/58E3A50A-E770-4CFB-8F36-74899C7F7DB0_zpspimgsdpl.jpg) (http://s1311.photobucket.com/user/cotton7611/media/58E3A50A-E770-4CFB-8F36-74899C7F7DB0_zpspimgsdpl.jpg.html)
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Bonepile and Steve are going to stop by my place on the way up. I'll load them up with what I was going to bring. Some coral and Fla. chert. That case will look nice filled with some points and color.
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That is beautiful tell him it is much appreciated, Miss Joanie has won 2 of them in the passed and has them in a special place in our home, I am sure that will cost me also along with a lot of other nice stuff Is the rock cook still on? I talked to Bill [one of our members that knapps.] yesterday and he said he will help me with the pit and get the fire going if yall still plan on doing it, all I need is the rock. I have the sand already. :) I will be at the cabin from the 22nd on so if anyone plans to send some to my house it needs to be there next week. ;)
Pappy
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Looks like I'm likely heading up by myself, apart from Roger but I will be stopping to pick up rock at Eddie's. I'm not arriving 'til Thurs. afternoon, though. What day is the cook planned for?
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I think it would be smart to get it in the ground and the fire started by Tues-Weds, but it will depend on someone taking charge of the setup that is there early in the week. I'm gonna get my rock boxed up and sent here soon so anyone else that plans to be involved better do the same. Just mail to Pappy and he'll get it down to the farm.
It's gettin close now!
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We got it covered if yall get us the rock. ;) :)
Pappy
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One medium flat rate box of rocks headed your way Pappy. They aren't bifaced or spalled, just smaller flat nodules with most of the cortex wore off. The heat treat fine in my turkey roaster that way. Josh
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Just dropped my box in the mail. Joe's rock and mine are both in there but they are marked.
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Cool, I will take care of it, it that going to be it ? Heard for any of the others that wanted to be in on this ?
Pappy
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I'm getting a box out this week, also, Mark. It will have some coral I already heated but could use a little more and some chert.
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Pappy, bringing a box with me if I don't forget to load it, Will Monday morning be early enough? Bob
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Box just sent
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That's great guys! Sounds like we could have rocks from 7-8 people! Surely we can turn something decent out of that large a sample size.
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Yep they could cook any old way and we are bound to make something from it.
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Cool, I will get it to the cabin. Bob that is fine, I may get you and Ryan to help me get it going . See yall in a few days. ;) :)
Pappy
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Just mailed my box out. Some coral is in the bottom and chert on top. Make sure the white translucent coral is in the bottom of the pit and any coral that is orange along with the chert gets the hot part of the fire.
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Got 3 boxes of rocks so far/Scott, John, Josh , I figure Eddie's will come today. Bob/Bill and I will get it taken care of when we all get there. I have a plan on where to put it so we should be good to go. See yall in a few days. I am headed that way in a few hours. :)
Pappy
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Sounds good Pappy, should be there Monday morning. Bob
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I believe Don is sending one as well
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Fire is going . Pappy
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How did the rock come out? Really curious if the coral held up to two days worth of heat.
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The rock came out without a single piece cracked, potlidded, or heat changed in anyway. If we do this again we need to rethink it just a little. Possibly limit the number of spalls each person can send (quality over quantity.) Doing that would allow us to keep the pit a single layer deep and give us a better chance of gettin heat to em.
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I guess it was good that I had already heat treated the coral.
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I really was hoping to follow this experiment also. If I'm understanding right the fire burned for 2 days but no noticeable change in stone? I was hoping to try this myself. Do you think it would have worked better to scrape coals and ash off after 1st day and restart fire again? Have Zero experience at this but have researched it a bit and some folks used a 2 fire method.
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Jbrogg pm sent
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I heard the backfill material was damp.
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I think we put to much over it, but I was just following James instructions. ;)
Pappy
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I would be willing to come early next year and help set up the heat treating pit.
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That would be great John, like I said from the start, I know nothing about doing it and seems it showed. :(
Pappy
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That would be great John, like I said from the start, I know nothing about doing it and seems it showed. :(
Pappy
Pappy I would be honored and am happy that you let us do this stuff
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Never intended this to look like a criticism of you, Pappy. We all knew from the start it was an experiment. We didn't nail it the first time, but we did learn some stuff. Like John said, I'm awful grateful you all allowed us to try and hopefully next year we can do a little better.
Thanks, John for the offer to setup the pit next year. If we could even come close to duplicating your results at home we should see success.
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I'll for sure be there early next year and would be happy to give you a hand, John.
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I like the don't give up attitude of folks here on PA. Thanks Scott, and Eddie that would be Awesome to work together. Next year Annette said she wanted to join me so a longer visit is in order this next time around.
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Next year Annette said she wanted to join me so a longer visit is in order this next time around.
Oh man, she really has turned a corner!!
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Next year Annette said she wanted to join me so a longer visit is in order this next time around.
Oh man, she really has turned a corner!!
Yep from city girl that would not walk in the woods to "one who hikes alone" and bring me flint. My work on this good earth is endless and see no bounds lol.
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My quess damp sand on top and to much damp dirt on top of that, I thought the sand covering would have been enough also thought that 25 lbs of charcoal would have dried the sand out, Bob