Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Flight Bows => Topic started by: redhawk55 on December 04, 2015, 12:17:47 pm
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Is there any pic of Harry Drake's yew bow available?
No results when searching by google and........................
Michael
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I would love to see that bow, Harry Drake always gave credit to the fantastic piece of yew he used for that. I think it was a matter of getting the design for the stave just right. I wish I knew more details about the actual shot, draw length, poundage , details on arrow etc.
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Was there such a bow shot for official distance? I read through a huge stack of letters Harry wrote to Bert Grayson over a 20 year period. In them, Harry does mention a short yew self bow that he crafted for the newly formed primitive divisions. He was very proud of it and had high expectations for it, but it blew up when drawn back at its debut at one of the flight competitions. I can go back and look. I think there was a picture or two of it.
The highlight of Drake's primitive bow building was with his horn-sinew-wood composites in the 1990's. I believe they were not much more than 75-80lb draw. Dan Perry shot one of them in the mid-500 yard range and Don Brown shot the other past 600 yards. Don still holds the overall modern primitive bow record with that bow.
Alan
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Allen, I believe in a conversation with Dan Perry one time he was talking about a yew bow made by Harry Drake that had held some record. It may have fallen under the old flight rules, I don't know much about it. I remember Dan saying that Harry credited to wood. Thats about all I knew about it.
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Dan Perry said that the bow was 60 inches long and pulled 80 plus pounds. It was very narrow(one inch) and deep with static tips like all flight bows of the time.
The bow rapidly degraded in performance and was sold off as a hunting bow.
The Homer Prouty bow that alan showed on Paleoplanet is likely not too far off what the bow looked like.
The weight of the arrow used indicates it was probably a shorter arrow and I wouldn't be surprised if a short overdraw was used.
Here is Dan's quote:
When I was trying to pick Harry Drake's brain, (not much success. He was pretty tight lipped about any hows or whys) he told me of a yew self bow he shot just over 540 yards, maybe 541. He said it had very short sharp angled recurves like this one, was 60 inches long, 87 Pound draw, and had limbs about 1 inch wide, rectangular in limb cross section. It was made from high elevation, Earl Ulrich yew
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I have a bow right now, that is about 58" long with the short tight statics that I am getting very good speeds out of, up to 300 fps at about 54#. I have yet to get a clean shot out of it though. I have been shooting it with 200 grain arrows and about 250 fps, it should be good for well over 400 yards but I am getting just a little over 300 with it.
Interesting topic is limb cross section. Thick limbs tend to be more efficient but degrade more quickly than wide flat limbs. I am leaning now toward a wide flat but very short working area tapering to a thick longer static area like the Mollagabet styles. The short static curves really seem to shine with the light arrows.
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Why not just stick a little overdraw on and use a lighter, shorter arrow? That will likely tell us a lot about those records that have blurry details.
I have a short static that I'm working on that is designed along the principles of using what has already been proven to work.
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We can't use overdraws and minimum arrow length is 23".
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I'm fully aware of that. I meant to see if that's the part that let those records be so superior. Surely Harry wasn't using a full length or even 23" arrow weighing 140 grains.
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I would love to dry and duplicate that shot. I don't know of anyone who has enough info on it to make that possible.
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I think you just need to reverse engineer it. At least we have some info and the gaps could be filled in after at least executing the known factors.
Looking at Drakes early laminated static flight bows with their aluminum overdraw rests gives other hints as to what sort of draw versus arrow length was typical in that era.
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I would probably go for a 21" arrow with a 26" draw. At 21" I can get good stiffness and low weight from a relatively dense piece of wood. About 15 years ago I built an ipe shorty at about 100# maybe a tad more. I mounted it on a crossbow and shot an 18" purple heart arrow. I never got an exact measure on it but I am pretty sure it exceeded 500 yards.
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Ipe with backing? I honestly think a strong guy could just hand shoot a crossbow prod type bow and exceed the records.
Draw weights for hand held bows back then seemed to max out at under 100 pounds for whatever reason.
Hill's 170 pound record being the exception but its distance was mediocre.
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Thanx a lot for your replies.
This seems to be a very similiar bow: http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/30411/t/Impressive-1930-s-flight-bow.html#.VmQM8abXJ-g
It is made by the above mentioned Homer Prouty, outstanding!!!! Yew without the sapwood, no backing. Can't believe that.
As usually, it is all about a more than perfect piece of wood and a much more perfect tiller- job.
Let's go for a try.(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2548/4128306086_6081013e02_o.jpg), (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2513/4128306052_b46155552c_o.jpg)
Michael
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Woo, nice bend on those hooks :)
The cutaway for the arrow pass looks a tad experimental, like it's evolved to do the job which is to be expected I s'pose.
Del
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If I'm not mistaken I think that bow actually cracked in the fade where the overdraw is notched in.
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Not sure about a cracking.
I think he has tried different ways of arrow- rests, glued them and removed them.
Anybody has made a yew- bow without sapwood?
Michael
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The pictures from the listing showed a few more angles and the crack starting at the upper part of the notch was quite apparent.
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I have built some yew bows without sapwood, never with the big hooks. Nex time I may try that. Nearly all of my yew bows have come out to be nice bows but I have never gotten anything I would call exceptional from one. I usually end up going with something osage.
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I'm still looking through old documents. There is one bow that Harry Drake described numerous times in his letters that unofficially cast an arrow 504 yards in 1950. The bow is described as being made from some excellent yew provided by Earl Ulrich, with ears and handle splices similar to Turkish flight bows. It was backed with cattle back strap sinew and used straight hide glue. The bow was faced with "Miller's Toxhorn", which was some kind of plastic material substituted for horn. The bow was 40" long nock-to-nock and had a draw weight of 50-lb with a 23" long flight arrow. Arrow weight was "around 138 grains". The bow had no overdraw, but a feather rest was used, "set sidewise into the handle". The release was a 4-finger plastic block.
Quote from Harry Drake: "I made 6 shots with the bow. With all that creaking and popping going on, no more that 6 arrows were gingerly cast. I wonder what I would have got with that bow if I had ignored the noise and continued shooting the bow? Generally, you don't get your best distance in the first 6 arrows with a new bow."
Alan
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Those mixed primitive and modern material bows were popular in that era.
http://www.tradrag.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3190
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=14;t=006018;p=2
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So Sinew backed wood, and "Horn" backed sinew?
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So Sinew backed wood, and "Horn" backed sinew?
?
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The bow is described as being made from some excellent yew provided by Earl Ulrich, with ears and handle splices similar to Turkish flight bows. It was backed with cattle back strap sinew and used straight hide glue. The bow was faced with "Miller's Toxhorn", which was some kind of plastic material substituted for horn. T
So Sinew backed wood, and "Horn" backed sinew?
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Sinew backed Yew, backed with plastic horn?
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The plastic horn is a "facing" or belly side laminate.
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Good to know.
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The first thread I posted shows the way the bow was made.
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I finally found a reference in Drake's letters to the yew bow that is the subject of this post. It came up when Jim Hamm was working on the Bowyer's Bible series and asked Harry Drake about the longest shot made using an all-wood bow.
Harry wrote "I told him I thought I held this record with a bow made of Ulrich yew pulling 69 lb at 23" (length of arrows used, no overdraw) at NAA Nationwide Mail Shoot....1945. One of the witnesses was Frank Eicholtz. So far as I know this is the best distance ever obtained with an all-wood bow....541 yds."
No other specifics are given. I don't know if it was a self bow or laminated wood bow. I'll keep looking to see if something else pops up.
Back in that time, they used to do these mail-in flight shoots for fun. It would be held over a fixed period of time, and the results would be mailed into the National Archery Association main office, tallied, and published. Records were kept for mail in shoots for awhile, but later dropped due to heated arguments over the quality control of these shoots. I feel 541 yards is possible from a 69 lb all-wood bow, using all natural materials for the arrows and strings. Harry probably used a linen string. The arrows may have had plastic vanes, but probably not much different than we use in our current primitive divisions otherwise.
Alan
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Be nice if Dan dropped by and confirmed his quote on this bow.
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Thanx Alan, that's challenging news!
Maybe you could get some more info and a pic?
Michael
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Here's some more info from Drake's letters:
Drake wrote: "Took up archery in 1938. In 1940 made my first shots over 400 yards. Self recurves Osage (short stubby recurves) self made. 75 lbs. Finally reached 482 with it. Accurately measured."
Alan
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That was great Allen, that is what I feel we should be shooting with 70# bows. I wonder how many practice arrows he would shoot in a year?
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Thanx Alan, I guess "stubby" means sharp recurves?
Any info on the arrows?
Michael
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I hope these distances are inspiring. They are certainly realistic. Harry favored Douglas fir for his wood arrows over port Orford cedar. Length was 23" for the Osage self bow. The fletched may have been acetate, but horn works just as well.
String was probably linen.
Alan
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In 1993, Harry Drake was obsessed with perfecting the Turkish flight bow and had a personal goal of for himself to reach 600 yards with a 50-lb primitive bow. It was a rare unrealized goal for him, but will surely be worth celebrating when someone does manage to rise to the challenge. I would like to establish a special trophy and recognition for the first to do this. Anyone up for it?
Drake was around 80 years old at the time, so that should give most of us some time. Hahaha!
Alan
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How about an award for 600 with any weight of primitive bow? Harry might have been dreaming a bit with the 50 pound 600 yard bow.
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Harrry was not out of line with that goal. It is a bit lofty but not unrealistic. A perfect shot at about 300 fps could get you 300 yards. We can get the 300 fps right now from 50lb bows and very light arrows. I would imagine a turkish bow with a 28" or longer draw using a short arrow could easily attain the needed speed.
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I thought horn bows didn't work in low weights? ;)
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A hornbow will never match 300f/s at max.50lbs.
Oh Harry youŽll make me sleepless nights when challenging us with that 600yards at max. 50lbs!
These are really inspiring distances, IŽm up for it!
Michael
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Thanks for the Drake quotes, Avcase!
This type of mail-in flight shooting would of course not fly (heh), as far as the record books are concerned, then as now. In any given sport, there is private practice and then there are the sanctioned tournaments. This gives even more weight to the achievements of Homer Prouty, who shot a distance of 478 yards with a 76# Oregon yew recurve, in August 1933, at the 53rd Annual Tournament of the National Archery Association in St Louis, Missouri. He won all four of the hand bow classes using similar-style yew recurves, with a shortest winning shot of 344 yards, using a 46-pound bow in the 50# class. All this at a very early date, right on the heels of the first papers published by Hickman, Nagler, Klopsteg et al.
In 1939, Ken Wilhelm shot a public, well-witnessed, County Surveyor-measured, yet non-Tournament distance of 579 yards using a hand bow. No details on the bow, but given the date I'm pretty sure no bow bellies in plastic etc. there. A sinew backing is possible, to give room for Drake's all-wood shot of some 39 yards less, six years later.
Tuukka
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Tuuuka,
For awhile, a separate set of records were kept for the mail-in tournaments, but that was dropped after the records for the mail-in tournaments started to far exceed the official tournament records. It also led to endless arguments about methods of measurement or accusations of exaggerations. Drake wrote about how he would lose to some of the east coast competitors by a hundred yards or more, but then easily beat the same shooters by the same margin at a national tournament.
That's good info on Homer Prouty. Where did you find these results?
Alan
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I was just speaking to David Hayes about the records of past flight shoots. He has the results of every shoot since the 1950's I wuld love to go through those old records.
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Steve,
Lynn has Ike's old results and record books. We ought to see if we can find a little time to digitally archive it and make it available through the flight web site. I have some scattered results and records lists going back through the mid-1960's that I could scan already. It is probably 100 pages of material. The hard part is finding specific documentation on the equipment used.
Alan
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Allen, I wouldn't mind retyping it all or scanning it if it is in good condition.
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Would appreciate it very much if you could find some time to have a closer look at those papers.
The figures could give us a closer idea of what is possible.
Michael
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In 1993, Harry Drake was obsessed with perfecting the Turkish flight bow and had a personal goal of for himself to reach 600 yards with a 50-lb primitive bow. It was a rare unrealized goal for him, but will surely be worth celebrating when someone does manage to rise to the challenge. I would like to establish a special trophy and recognition for the first to do this. Anyone up for it?
Drake was around 80 years old at the time, so that should give most of us some time. Hahaha!
Alan
Highly reflexed Korean horn bow with rail tong-ah overdraw and very short, light arrow, and 50#@34" draw? Maybe??
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I don't think a hornbow could be that fast at 50#.
I have a few heavier Turkish flight bows 'in the works' so to speak at the moment. Hopefully they will be about 80 - 90# when finished.
Allen - I need to search paleoplanet again for the tutorial you posted on how you make your cane flight arrows. I finally got some sections of Tonkin cane that should work.
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Mikekeswick,
I believe it is still there, but I will need to update the build-a-long on my split-cane flight arrows with some changes I've made since.
On another front, I am working with the use of heat-treating and optimized lower drag shapes to see how close I can match flight arrow performance with all-wood arrow shafts. I believe I can get pretty close.
Alan
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http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/29783/Split-Cane-Bamboo-Flight-Arrows
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Thanks for the link.
Alan I'd be very interested to hear the changes you've made to the process. I will wait for another couple of days to hopefully hear back from you. Also I only have a few pieces of Tonkin. Is there any chance you could supply the name of your supplier? It's very hard to come across Tonkin in this country.
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I've found a Tonkin supplier and am assembling the bits and pieces I need to have a go at making some of these bad boys! I am really looking forward to seeing how they go.
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I've found a Tonkin supplier and am assembling the bits and pieces I need to have a go at making some of these bad boys! I am really looking forward to seeing how they go.
Be sure to post some pics... I don't have the patience for split cane arrows... but... I've extrapolated and I reckon I'll have the patience to do a horn bow when I'm about 158 ::)
Del :laugh: