Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: Pat B on December 10, 2015, 10:46:03 am
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This figure is a project I made from paper mache. He is my representation of an American Eastern Woodland hunter.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/IMG_1191_zpsjfzmmxsl.jpg) (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/PatBNC/media/IMG_1191_zpsjfzmmxsl.jpg.html)
For my next project I want to try a Mary Rose era figure at full draw with his war bow. I would like to make it as accurate as I can with the bow, arrows and other accessories plus get the stance, attitude and clothing of the shooter as close as possible to the real thing. Can someone give me info as to where I can find examples of a war bow shooter of this era, in full regalia and from different angles?
Thanks,
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Oh, I'm looking forward to seeing that one Pat, especially considering how well your eastern woodland hunter turned out.
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Hi Pat, that came out cool 8)
Here's the Archer off the Mary Rose reconstructed, the Jerkin is made of calf skin flesh side out.
I'll try and source you some more stuff that may be helpful...
Here's a video of Joe Gibbs shooting a 170@32" Mary Rose replica. He can do it so I reckon the nearest you'll get to how it looked (don't know anyone else who could make it look so easy :D)), the pushing forward into the bow first is important and then elevation from the waist to the desired angle.
https://youtu.be/0-2KLuAH4GY
Ruddy Darter.
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Thanks guys. Ruddy, that gives me a good idea of the clothing of that era.
Can either of you give me a website or whatever that would show shooting stance, etc? I did find a pic of Mark Stretton pulling a heavy bow but I'm not sure if his stance is the same or is each individual's stance different.
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I just added a video to my previous post Pat B, and I'd say Mark Stretton would be a good comparison to a medieval heavy archery too.
Ruddy Darter.
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Don't use that model for clothing guides ;D It's a million miles off! For Henry's 16th century elite archers you want absolute top of the range fashion. Glennan Carnie and his wife are about as good as you'll get for that period in terms of spot on accurate clothing.
This photo of Glen is what you're after for clothing (this isnt even high fashion, and Henry's elite may well be far more "fancy" but its a good starting point.
(http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k92/Glennan_Carnie/Clothing/20130118_154853_zpsdd49088a.jpg)
If you Google Glennan Carnie you'll find lots of photos of him at full draw with bows around 150lb so combine the two and you should be on your way. Can't go wrong with Joe and Mark either, and if you can find some pics of Simon Stanley, or anybody else who can properly shoot heavy bows you'll have a good range of styles to pick from.
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I would have thought the Mary Rose museum would have used clothing off the ship as a basis for dressing the models? And massive trousers like in your picture would be no use at all for working men on a ship as they would be constantly getting in the way - maybe for the officers though as they do look very dapper. I've worked on traditional sailing ships and I'd sooner go without trousers than be around blocks, ropes and other moving rigging with that much loose fabric.
Don't forget the working men being 'elite' would not equate to them being anything more than working men who were very good at their job, so almost certainly not rich enough for haute couture.
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Maybe using "Mary Rose era" isn't right. "War Bow era" might be a better term. Say the average war bow shooter from Agincourt or other battles would be a better choice. I'm not all that familiar with the time lines so forgive my ignorance.
Thanks for the suggestions so far. I'll research the info given and look forward to other info to come.
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Mary Rose era and Agincourt era clothing are very, very different. Easier to find Agincourt era clothing photos online however. If you look at some of the kit worn by the guys who did the recent 600 year anniversary you'll have a good idea. Can't get much better than Nick Birmingham for that, if you can find some images. He's got it spot on.
Lucasade - they're not working men, they're soldiers. Very different thing! Paid soldiers hired for the kings flagship aren't "working men". Plus, despite being at battle when it sank, the MR was on route to the Isle Of Wight to drop off soldiers as well. It wasn't sailors that were using the bows. That's my understanding anyway. May be wrong!
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Soldiers or not they would still have been on a working man's daily wage, albeit a good one. Enough for good quality clothes but not enough to keep up with fashion I would say. I may well be wrong but the only soldiers I've ever seen or seen pictures of swanning around in fancy clothes tend to be ceremonial guards or minions of an egotist; all the rest I've seen wear highly practical clothes that won't get in the way.
Prince Harry was the flagship when the Mary Rose sank, though Mary Rose had been a flagship previously in her career. And wouldn't soldiers be hired for the army rather than an individual ship?
There's some good photos of Nick Birmingham on the Warbow Wales site's report of the 2015 Courtfield Cup.
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You may want to clarify if you are looking for an everyday shoot sort of scene or if you want battle gear, because in battle the archers would not be wearing anything like fashion wear but likely quilted gambison and other minimal armor and weapons in addition to their bow.
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This photo of Nick is what I would consider accurate for slightly earlier than Agincourt (the hose and the sword aren't right up to date with 1415 but you could do a Crecy or Poitiers scene and this would be perfect.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=nick+birmingham&safe=off&client=ms-android-motorola&biw=360&bih=511&tbm=isch&prmd=nisv&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiFk5OhndLJAhWHVxQKHXbUDMkQ_AUIBigC#imgdii=VFhUX1HopAn05M%3A%3B1OMIDeCWi4q28M%3A%3B1OMIDeCWi4q28M%3A&imgrc=1OMIDeCWi4q28M%3AA
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(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/07/5a/e2/075ae2f92737e73396e0b4101abe2bed.jpg)
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Here's a archers sallet, and side arms with mallet for hammering in stakes to fortify positions against cavalry, and head bashing, after a swift bash in the face by the buckler shield the bollock dagger was used for slipping up for the gonads or armpit, face or gap in the armour at close quarters.
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Here's a couple of models I found just to show the stakes hammered in, it was a main tactic used and thought it might make a nice addition to your model making. The stakes were possibly a little bigger and taller though (?)
And another pic showing the buckler shield how it was worn.
Ruddy Darter.
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I'm not considering a specific time period. I'll choose the figure I want to represent. Nick seems to be a good model, cloths wise and his kit. I'll look at other "kits" also to see what all is in included.
I've noticed that in some full draw pics the archer is drawing to his jaw and others behind their ear, some getting in to the bow and others way in to the bow leaning way back. Is this just a personal preference or specific to heavy/heavier draw weight.
Thanks for the help so far guys. I don't think this will not be a short term project but I'll post my progress as I go. Getting the shape of the archer at full draw right from all sides is very critical to the final results and I'd like your feedback as I go.
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Thanks Ruddy. All of those pics will be helpful. The spikes do make a dramatic statement and I have hardwood shoot cut off from some of my arrows that will be perfect for them.
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For the sake of simplicity, I'd choose one person and study him shooting. You really would struggle to find anybody better than Joe for that - there are plenty of videos of him shooting from all sides including from directly behind him and he's got flawless technique.
Ian Coote has an excellent channel packed with vids of Joe - search 40bowyr to find it on YouTube.
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Very nice Pat!
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Jeff, my Eastern Woodland guy will be on the raffle table at the Classic. You had better bring lots of dollar bills to buy tickets. ;)
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Pat, does one need to be present at the Classic to get in on the raffle?
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Aaron, contact Pappy and he will tell you how to work it out.
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Thank you
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I know you will have your own ideas of what your looking for Pat. But I would say that the Medieval archers get up would look more dynamic and ready for action than the MR type! Love your Eastern woodlands figure and look forward to seeing how this one comes out! :)
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Sieddy, I'm looking for drama, not a particular archer or era. I'll look up medieval archers and see if they fit.
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...some levied archers of Cheshire and Flint 1330's,
Ruddy Darter.
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Ruddy, do you have a pic of that era at full draw. Full draw is what I do want.
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If it's drama you want I seem to remember a picture of a dysentry-ridden bowman at full draw with his trousers round his ankles on the Agincourt anniversary website!
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I've had a good scout around on Google and just can't seem to find a good pic of full draw, either its the wrong angle or the legs are cut out the pic :-\, I did find another pic of a copy of the Chesire and Flint levied archer, he done a good job replicating it so may be of help with the costume. I will keep an eye out for a good pic, what's preferred...a point blank aim at a closing enemy or a distance shot with elavation?
Ruddy Darter.
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Here's a great picture of Heffalump off Del's blogspot ( copyright permission kindly granted by Del 8) :D) at full draw with back leg straight and elevation from the waist, if the back leg is bent to get elevation I regard this as poor form(my opinion).
A good one of Del at point blank.
One of Joe Gibbs really pushing into a heavy bow, quite dramatic looking in my opinion.
And one of Simon Stanley who has top posture when loosing arrows.
You will see a slight variation in draw, Heffalump has a long draw length so doesn't anchor as far back as Joe, this is the only reason for this difference.
Maybe costume can be superimposed on these?,
Hope this is helpful
Ruddy Darter.
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Well, I got him started. I began with chicken wire and got his legs and torso then wrapped it with masking tape. I want to get the legs close to how they should be early on and the torso to the right attitude. I've begun to add news paper. Once I get most of the wire covered and the glue dry I'll study the pics you guys have posted and work on the shape some.
This will be a slow process but here is where I am now...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/IMG_0013_zpsnwp2y7yt.jpg) (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/PatBNC/media/IMG_0013_zpsnwp2y7yt.jpg.html)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/IMG_0012_zpsjvhow1qa.jpg) (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/PatBNC/media/IMG_0012_zpsjvhow1qa.jpg.html)
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That's a good start you got there Pat B, 8) looking forward to seeing future progress
Ruddy Darter
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The legs and torso look very dynamic already! :-)
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I got a little more done, arms attached and a yew bow bent. I still need to get the bow bending a little more evenly. The body shape is so out of the ordinary it is difficult to get the arms, legs and body attitude just right...but it's getting there. Here are a few pics...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/IMG_0015_zpsxfrrvvnq.jpg) (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/PatBNC/media/IMG_0015_zpsxfrrvvnq.jpg.html)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/IMG_0014_zps4ptfwd0r.jpg) (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/PatBNC/media/IMG_0014_zps4ptfwd0r.jpg.html)
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You should take that bow and make a miniature tiller tree and post pics in the bow section asking for a tiller check and see how many fall for it, lol.
Great work man, looking forward to more.
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A little off both outers and it looks like a bit of hinge is starting in the middle of the bottom limb. >:D >:D It's looking great!!! Are you going to reduce the diameter of the bow? It may be the picture but the bow looks like it's about 4" in dia.
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It represents a heavy war bow. I'll probably reduce the diameter a bit but I'll fit it to the archer. I just bent the bow yesterday and adjusted the bend some today. I wanted to add the bow(temporarily) to help with the stance and body position. The angle of the legs and body are contorted from drawing a heavy bow and adding the bow helps to see that it is getting close.
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Looking good Pat!
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Pat B this is really cool I like your sculptures.
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Thanks Jeff and AR.
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I can almost see the strain in his face already! :)
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I've been slow with this but I want his attitude to be just right...and it seems to be getting there.
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Ruddy Darter, if I use the pic of Del for a model I wont have to have a shiny helmet, his bald head would suffice! ;D
I'm working on the cloths now. If I get to a good place in the process Ill post updated pics.
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LOL :laugh:
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Lol, I'm sure it's just a wide centre parting Pat B, ...oh crikey, I hope he don't help me build a matchstick instead of a bow now :laugh:. That's sounds great progress and really looking forward to seeing the Bowman sculpture, looking good thus far 8).
(Are there going to be any hammered in stakes?)
Ruddy Darter.
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Sorry Del. I couldn't help myself. ::) I also resemble that remark. ;D
I have the stakes picked out already. All I have to do is sharpen the ends and push them into the base. I'm working on his battle ax now, have 6 arrow shafts that need points and fletching then his sword and possible bag. I'm also working on a helmet for him but its gonna be hard to get the slick shiny finish for the helmet.
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An idea...maybe a skim of wood filler over the mache and then fine sanded prior to painting would result in a smooth surface? Thick acylic paint also sands smooth when fully dry.(also household gloss paint with wet and dry fine cloth)
(If a silver paint is to be used a dark grey/black undercoat with the silver lightly overcoating results in a realistic metal finish, then a satin shine coat of lacquer, a high gloss lacquer/varnish doesn't work as good.)
Ruddy Darter.
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Thanks for the tips. Once the glue dries on the helmet I'll try to sand it smooth or as smooth as possible. I'm using Elmer's Glue(carpenter's glue) so it should sand OK. I'll try the undercoating of the darker colors(grey/black) with a light silver overcoat.
Did they all carry the small round shield? It looks like one hanging on the belt of some, I guess for hand to hand combat once the arrows are all shot up.
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I believe the buckler shield was pretty standard kit, and yes it was for close quarter fighting used to smash in to the face area and to obscure vision on and post impact as well as protection from weapon blows, as much an attack weapon as a defence. It was carried on to the waist belt.
I just copied this from wiki-
Hand protection: The primary use of the buckler was to protect the sword hand.
Deflector: The buckler's lightness and curved center made it excellent for deflecting attacking blades.
Blinder: The light blades used in conjunction with the buckler depended on rapid movements, which meant that a single second was an important advantage. The wielder of the buckler could use the buckler to shield his sword-hand's position from view, keeping his opponent from guessing his next strike.
"Metal fist": A buckler could be used to directly attack an opponent by punching with either its flat face or its rim.
Binder: The buckler could be used to bind an opponent's sword hand and weapon as well as their buckler against their body. The buckler was also very useful in grappling, where it allowed an opponent's arms to be easily wrapped up and controlled.
This is a generalization of buckler shields, the bowmen's buckler shield had a round protruding centre boss for face rearranging. :o
Here's a good illustration of them in action I reckon,
Ruddy Darter.
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CA glue would give you that slick shiny finish
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Aaron, just the way the tissue paper and glue lays keeps it from being too smooth. I guess I could use a reverse mold to form with the outside of the helmet was the inside of the mold. That would be as smooth as the mold.
Thanks RD. I was wondering about the protrusion on the outside of the shield but now I understand it's usefulness. I'll have to make one to add to his kit. I added his hood and shoulder cape and started with the initial painting. It's amazing what you see when the paint is added, some good, some not so. ;D I also made his bottle ax. It has an osage handle. Not authentic but available. ;)
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Sounding great Pat B 8), ("bottle ax"?,is that for opening up the post-battle Budweiser? ;D)
Ruddy Darter.
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Here is where I am now. Just added the paint to help define clothing, etc. I'm still making adjustments. Once I'm satisfied with the results I'll start on the accessories. The red cross is just taped on for now. It makes a big difference to the appearance now. The bow needs more work too but that will come later also. Any critiques, criticisms or comments are welcome.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/Warbow%20archer_zpshat8qsa6.png) (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/PatBNC/media/Warbow%20archer_zpshat8qsa6.png.html)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/War%20bow%20archer_zpsleowau3f.png) (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/PatBNC/media/War%20bow%20archer_zpsleowau3f.png.html)
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Photobucket screwed these pics up but you get the idea.
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Looks great :)
Bracer could be shorter I suppose, if you need picky details! That looks like the Hollywood style long bracer, whereas the "real thing" is very short and just covers the wrist area. Not sure it makes a real difference however ;)
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Very cool Pat
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Thanks Will. That's the kind of details I want to know. I do want it as close to accurate as I can get it.
Thanks Aaron
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That's looking ace Pat B, the gambeson looks very realistic. There's no chance of mistaking him as anything other than an English bowman 8).
Ruddy Darter.
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So very typical of you to work this hard at getting things right. I am glad to see it paying off, the figure looks pretty good so far!
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Thanks Will. That's the kind of details I want to know. I do want it as close to accurate as I can get it.
Thanks Aaron
In that case.... ;)
The hose should be skin-tight definitely. That was the style from way back before the Medieval period to right up through the 16thC. An Agincourt/Poitiers/Crecy archer would fit smack in the middle of that, so if you want to be SUPER accurate then skin-tight hose and small ankle boots instead of "boot" boots if that makes sense!
The gambeson does look ace, I agree!
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Will, unfortunately it is difficult to get smooth surfaces with the paper mache over chicken wire so I'm saying he borrowed his big brother's stockings. ;D The boots are similar to some I saw on line in some old pictures from links earlier on in this thread. They do add some character if not precise. I guess I won't be totally exact.
Glad I got the gambeson correct.
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It's alright I was being overly picky ;) I think it looks great! Will there be a belt with pouch and knife?
FWIW boots are a big argument point for this period! There's not a scrap of evidence for full boots and yet it seems they're far more popular than the more accurate style. I guess Hollywood has a lot to answer for!
Be glad you're not doing a Viking - everywhere you look it's leather and fur until you dig deep into actual primary sources!
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I will have a belt, knife, sword, pouch, ax and 6 arrows. these will all be 3D and separate from the figure. The arrows won't have real feathers like the Eastern Woodland Hunter had. I'll cut out fletching of paper and draw on the thread wrap. Haven't decided about the arrow heads yet. The bow is Pacific yew and the "horn nocks" are painted on. No bow string but the appearance of a full drawn bow.
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Very nice indeed. It makes me feel very patriotic too! :)
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Well, I think he's finally done. The first pic is of the archer's kit; sword and scabbard, dagger and sheath, war ax, helmet, buckler shield, 6 arrows and the yew bow. The arrows are not near to scale but I used bamboo skewers and that is as small as I could get.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/DSC00055_zpsqeefraeh.jpg) (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/PatBNC/media/DSC00055_zpsqeefraeh.jpg.html)
...and Thomas Archer(wife's suggestion) in full regalia...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/DSC00061_zpsensroq1v.jpg) (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/PatBNC/media/DSC00061_zpsensroq1v.jpg.html)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/DSC00059_zpsuj39oing.jpg) (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/PatBNC/media/DSC00059_zpsuj39oing.jpg.html)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/DSC00058_zpsy8uqrazg.jpg) (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/PatBNC/media/DSC00058_zpsy8uqrazg.jpg.html)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/DSC00057_zps9umtpgrk.jpg) (http://s5.photobucket.com/user/PatBNC/media/DSC00057_zps9umtpgrk.jpg.html)
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That looks fantastic!
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The arrows may not be as far out of scale as you think, some of those war arrows look more like broomsticks than arrows lol ;D
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He looks great Pat B, very nice work and really like the details on the kit. With stakes hammered in ol' Thomas looks to be loosing arrows in a muddy campaign field. 8) (arrows and bow looking pretty cool)
Ruddy Darter.
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That's just so cool. I'll take one, for the workshop ;D
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Thanks guys. I appreciate the kind words.
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I hadn't been following this Pat....that came out great. Really respect your attention to detail sir!
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Wow Pat, that thing turned out great! I'll take two