Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: dragonman on December 23, 2015, 09:46:45 am
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Hello Everyone on PA , wishing you all an awesome yuletide.
Here is one of my latest bows. Its an ELB made from a yew branch that was just under 2" thick, The stave had about 2" of reflex which it kept all of after plenty of shooting in...Took quite abit of straightening with steam, it was a stubborn stave to adjust , but has got plenty of life in it.!! When I cut it it looked dead straight, but after a couple of years it was anything but straight.
Its 68" ntn, and 54lbs at 28", just over an 1 1/8"wide.
I did a twilight mission to an ancient churchyard to get this stave. there where yew trees there that looked up to 1000 yrs old.
for those who believe the rumours that english yew is inferior, this bow dissproves the false propaganda
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more pics
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Nice bend bud...Goood looking bow too.That length sure does the trick heh.
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Very nice indeed!
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Looks great!
I would like to try yew some day but good quality ones are not easily available here.
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Nice one... and another vote for English Yew. :)
Del
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Surely the recent load of English yew bows up to 200lb draw weight prove it's good wood regardless ;)
Nice looking bow this! Not a fan of people stealing yew without getting permission though :( Bad karma!
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Dont worry Willis, I did ask permission, I asked the spirit of the tree first for permission to cut off a branch and then I asked God , seeing as it is HIs house, and no one elses!!!....I thought He was the appropriate person to ask...who else should I have asked ??
trees have a soul in my opinion and belong to themself...I would think the karma is worse for not asking the tree spirit before cutting a tree
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Ahh, a very nice bow indeed! Let us not worry about its origins, but rather enjoy what it has become.
A Very Merry Christmas!
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that`s a really beautiful bow,
Hans
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Excellent! The bend of that bow at full draw looks so smooth and graceful, a thing of beauty.
I think the tree spirit would be pleased. and after all removing a branch is merely pruning, the tree lives on.
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If you happen to believe in god or spirits that's one thing, but all land is owned by somebody, and that's who you ask. The finding out of ownership is part of working with wood, and should always be so in my opinion. If the grounds were well kept, the grass cut, the beds maintained and the trees not overgrown, then somebody owns that land.
There's no knowing if the actual land owner had promised that particular piece of wood to somebody else who happened to ask them.
If you have to take the wood at night, that should say everything about the ethics of acquiring it.
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Willis....
how can you buy or sell the sky,
the warmth of the land?
The idea is strange to us.
If we do not own the freshness of the air
and the sparkle of the water
How can you buy or sell them..........Chief Seattle.
Do you think Robin Hood asked permission....
maybe you think you own the land too? haha
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Loverly no matter where it came from...carry on robin hood!! 8)
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This is a clear case of robbing from the rich and giving to the poor! ;)
Nice bow you have done the branch justice.
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Willis....
how can you buy or sell the sky,
the warmth of the land?
The idea is strange to us.
If we do not own the freshness of the air
and the sparkle of the water
How can you buy or sell them..........Chief Seattle.
Do you think Robin Hood asked permission....
maybe you think you own the land too? haha
OK, so what you're saying is that if you worked hard your whole life, and bought yourself a beautiful home, with some beautiful land and trees which you then worked hard to maintain, nourish, care for and look after, you'd be quite happy for somebody to hop over your fence at night with a saw, take whatever they wanted for their own selfish desire and all because they "asked god if it was ok"?
That's interesting. I'll bear that in mind the next time somebody steals something of mine.
Robin Hood was a myth, but I'm sure you knew that already. He also wasn't supposed to have made his own bows, but the Medieval bowyers were requested by law to obtain permission for any timber cut. But I'm sure you knew that as well.
I'll reiterate my point - you knew full well what you were doing was morally wrong because you did it at night. If it was perfectly reasonable to take a tree branch because "nobody can own a tree, dude" you wouldn't have needed darkness to hide your actions, you'd have done it during the day. If anybody saw you taking something that didn't belong to you, you would be able to justify it by saying "dude, nobody owns the sky, man!"
Like I said, its a lovely bow and I hope it shoots well for many years. It's just a shame in my opinion. I'll leave you to your thread, and apologies for taking it off topic.
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stay calm Wills....Its just a bit of fun
you need a good primitive attitude to make a good primitive bow....it is a 'primitive' bow site after all, you're bound to get a few primitive types hanging around, with primitive beliefs...
and I enjoyed our little discourse anyway
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If this is true.It's a matter of disrespect.It's not right but it does happen.In a lot of different venues.There's always something to negotiate with the land owner over to make a square deal where both parties are happy.
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Can't help thinking its far more "primitive" to barter and trade and negotiate than to trespass and take what you want. That sounds rather unpleasantly modern to me.
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Ethical propriety should be tempered with generosity of spirit, to shoot an arrow as straight as possible. There's a tension side and a compression side in a bow. Draw and release. The archer and the target are no different.
Happy holidays to all.
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Lovely bow.
But I'll go with Will: the way you acquired the stave is not how I'd go about it, necessarily. Trying to invoke quasi-indigenous cultural and spiritual stuff smashes your credibility to bits. Indigenous cultures the world over have owned, traded and acquired valuable resources according to long-developed law and custom since time immemorial.
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"Sanctimonious" is a nice word boys and girls...
Now who can spell sanctimonious?
Give the guy a break, this isn't a forum for discussing ethics, and do really want to get into a discussion about how much land the church in the UK owns and how it was acquired?
I've tried in the past to go through formal channels with the church for Yew in the grounds of a disused church and had no respose. Conversely a local vicar has been very accommodating.
For pities sake he took a limb, not the whole tree, I don't s'pose anyone even noticed or gave a damn.
Try commenting on the bow.
As for the comment about "quasi-indigenous cultural and spiritual stuff" ... errr. That's EXACTLY what the church is! ::)
Del
(Admins please feel free to delete this post and slap me down if I have overstepped the acceptable bounds, but I'd rather be discussing the bow).
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I'm soon gonna use this bow for poaching the "land owners" pheasants. I dont suppose you guys will approve of this either. hahaha
Its true what Del said. The church stole the land in the first place, they stole all the ancient sites of britain, and then they pertend to have some moral high ground....The land of a country belongs to the people of that country, not just a few greedy people . I have a God given right to take some natural resources without permission from other men...I'll take what I need, when I need it, from where I see fit. Then I will accept the consequences of my own actions according to my own conscience..The moral high ground is to not take more than you need from this earth. Not to beleive its somehow morally right to chop down trees, because some rich guy has given permission, or because you have exchanged some tokens with the queens head on it.
no one will have even noticed the missing branch, no one suffered , no one was hurt by my actions, only the tree.
Those who have criticised my actions are pathetic IMHO and I dont want or need any credibility from the likes of you.
Sanctimonious just about sums it up.....good word Del!!!
you can not own the land, just because you have a peice of paper to say so , does this give a man the right to chop the trees on that land? and kill what ever lives on that land.? if you beleive this, your morals mean nothing to me....you can only beleive you own the land!,there is nothing quasi about it...
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That Bow is beautiful. The unbraced profile says a lot about your skill.
Mike
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The sight of that beauty is a yuletide treat indeed! :)
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To me he made an outstanding bow as I commented earlier,and taking a limb is'nt so bad either.This sanctimonious talk and taking where and when as I please under my own conscience talk and idealistic talk is a bunch of hog manure.You've painted a pretty poor picture of yourself.In your own words pathetic.Sounds like a personal problem.Not that you care but tell it to someone who really gives a damn ok.I know this site does'nt.
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+1
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nicely done
chuck
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obviously 'landowners'
thanks everyone else for the kind words and compliments...I do appreciate it
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Nice bow.
Asking the tree first is as it should be, but then I'm just a NA heathen :)
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Poaching is not cool. People here in the US feel it is their right to poach redwood burls from the park, leaving ugly scars on the trees that people enjoy. You have no idea who enjoys those trees. There are legal channels to go through, as a matter of respect and of law. It doesn't even seem like you attempted this. Maybe it would have been different if you asked first, was denied and then did it. Maybe not. I don't know.
At least though, a beautiful bow was made. It would have been a far greater crime if the wood was poached and wasted. Just my $.02 for a fight I don't have a dog in.
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Good looking bow, nice bend. Never mind the dirty little secret about it. >:D
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Poaching is not cool. People here in the US feel it is their right to poach redwood burls from the park, leaving ugly scars on the trees that people enjoy. You have no idea who enjoys those trees. There are legal channels to go through, as a matter of respect and of law. It doesn't even seem like you attempted this. Maybe it would have been different if you asked first, was denied and then did it. Maybe not. I don't know.
At least though, a beautiful bow was made. It would have been a far greater crime if the wood was poached and wasted. Just my $.02 for a fight I don't have a dog in.
Now there's a can of worms if you ask me, which you didn't >:D
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I'm soon gonna use this bow for poaching the "land owners" pheasants. I dont suppose you guys will approve of this either. hahaha
Its true what Del said. The church stole the land in the first place, they stole all the ancient sites of britain, and then they pertend to have some moral high ground....The land of a country belongs to the people of that country, not just a few greedy people . I have a God given right to take some natural resources without permission from other men...I'll take what I need, when I need it, from where I see fit. Then I will accept the consequences of my own actions according to my own conscience..The moral high ground is to not take more than you need from this earth. Not to beleive its somehow morally right to chop down trees, because some rich guy has given permission, or because you have exchanged some tokens with the queens head on it.
no one will have even noticed the missing branch, no one suffered , no one was hurt by my actions, only the tree.
Those who have criticised my actions are pathetic IMHO and I dont want or need any credibility from the likes of you.
Sanctimonious just about sums it up.....good word Del!!!
you can not own the land, just because you have a peice of paper to say so , does this give a man the right to chop the trees on that land? and kill what ever lives on that land.? if you beleive this, your morals mean nothing to me....you can only beleive you own the land!,there is nothing quasi about it...
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Perhaps we're coming from very different cultural and political contexts and perspectives about resource use and ownership. Here, native title was established by our High Court's Mabo judgement, meaning that some land is recognised as having been owned by someone in an unbroken line spanning millennia. Whether traditional owners, or owners under some more contemporary arrangement, those people hold and manage that land in trust for generations past, present and future, and usually deserve consultation, if possible, practical and reasonable, before we help ourselves.
But if your conscience is perfectly clear and you can fully justify it to yourself, good luck to you. I couldn't.
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Definitely two broadly valid perspectives here(and a nice bow). There are plenty of instances where I wouldn't condone taking a tree without permission. For instance from a residential property, town public garden, or from a rare or historically noteworthy specimen.
I have seen enough fine timber get cut down and turned into garden mulch, firewood and landfill, or left to rot, crack and check until the timber is useless, that deserved a much better fate. Many land owners don't give a crap about trees in general, let alone understand the cultural, historical traditions and usage of timber.
How many yew trees grow straight enough and clean enough to provide a bow...not many. Surely it is a crime of sorts to waste such wood. On many trees cutting a branch can invigorate growth, the tree sends up new growth in clear, straight sections, providing subsequent generations with wood for bows. It called coppicing, and is a sustainable, renewable, and responsible usage of trees and timber management. The key to this system, is that it needs to be maintained. The slow growth of many trees means that in this day and age, the person who planted the tree probably won't gain any advantage from the tree he plants. Property changes hands many times over and the culture and its maintenance is lost.
What I said is a generalization. I'm not recommending anyone else to poach, or saying I would do it, but I certainly don't feel any less about someone who does choose to take a branch or even a tree providing it doesn't get wasted.
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heres a little story for the sanctimonious ones;
A man was coming home from the pub late at night and he had had a little too much to drink. He couldnt make it home that night and he fell a sleep under a tree whilst crossing a field on his way home. In the morning the farmer came along and said angrily "what are you doing on my land " ( as they usually do). The man replied, " ah , so its your land is it? prove it, where did you get it from?. The farmer replies that his father left it to him...and where did he get it replied the man,...His father left it to him, replied the farmer.....and where did he get it , asked the man...The farmer starts to get annoyed ( as they do) , and replied..." well if you go back far enough, I suppose my ancestors fought for it.." "Ah said the man, I thought as much...I tell you what we'll do ...I'll fight you for this piece of land"
The farmer , who didnt have the courage of his ancestors, predictably, refused the challenge and got on the phone to the police to help him.....
ultimately all land is "owned by force" the church may claim ownership of the said yew tree....But the truth is known, they stole that land many years ago from the indigenous people whom they tortured killed and persecuted, to maintain ownership.
your sanctimonious ( look it up ina dictionary ) ethics mean nothing, no more than the churches claimed ownership of the tree.
If you guys like going around begging permission to make your immitation indiginous bows go ahead, I wont criticise you.
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Dragonman.....Things are different in your UK than here as cadet said.I really don't know why I'm explaining this because it's ridiculous.Yes I am a land owner.Worked hard to save money to buy this land.Farmed it.Fed millions of people with it.Maintained it.Stuck my life into it.Proud of it.I take responsibility to take care of it.I have no bigotry or resentment towards renters or acreage owners.I do not sue people for just being on my land.If you want to own land save your money,and don't tell me you won't or can't because you hate land owners.If you can't handle being called a thieve it's not my problem but yours.
I'll tell you a story.This happened more than once too.During winters in Iowa some people go in the ditch along my property.I have no obligation to help them.They are stuck.It would cost them hundreds of dollars to be towed out by a towing service.Either I see them in the ditch or they come to the door to tell me.I pull them out for nothing just so they can be on their way.
Another story.I have to buy insurance to protect myself in case people or trespassers really,hurt themselves without telling me on my property.Maybe he breaks his leg.It's not my fault.In case this person wants to sue me for being in a place without asking me.
Yes things are different in the US,and very glad that I live here.
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Things aren't different in the UK Beadman - don't let somebody like this persuade you otherwise. What he's done is stealing, no matter what country it happened in. He knows he did something morally wrong (hence why he had to use night time to do it) and wasn't expecting being called out on it. His attitude towards poaching in general, and the comments about stealing somebody's pheasants says everything about his character.
As for his comments that I can't help taking personally:
I don't own land, and never have done, but I understand the rights of people who work for that privilege. If I see some yew that I think would make a nice bow, I ask them. If they say no, I assume they have their reasons and I move on, without a bit of wood (did you know it actually does grow on trees? There's always some more around, if you look ;) ). If they say yes, we come to an agreement about it and usually that means exchanging a tenner or something, or more often a bottle of wine, or an offer to spend a day playing with some bows and arrows and passing on the excitement and passion to somebody else.
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If you want to live in the past laws that's your business.You will come out the loser.As you are experiencing.Even the Indians as you quoted had laws to deal with thievery,and thievery is thievery no gray area.If you believe in your beliefs why would you go in the dark to collect wood.Stand behind your beliefs.Do it in the daylight.Have fun sneaking around,and yes we will continue to keep making these bows with or without your comments.
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" I can't tell you how many times I have acquired staves with acts resting somewhere between larceny and a bad pruning job" - Tim Baker
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That don't make it right.
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Beadman and Willis, you're funny ;D...In all seriousness tho, I dont think you ever grasped my original point. Who owns the churchyard?
Is a church the house of God or not? It either is or it isnt? The christians who built it say it is, they proudly state this is the house of God...Therefore like I said at the start of this insane discussion, seriously, I DID ASK PERMISSION from the owner. Not only that, I recognised the true status of the tree as an independent living being iis own right, and I also ASKED PERMISSION from the tree its self to cut its limb...I even asked the spirits of the dead lying in the ground, (even tho they where christians.)
From my perspective those who dont ask the spirit of the tree are the thieves....still I dont criticise them for their lack of vision!!
Maybe you dont believe in tree spirits,? well I dont believe in the power of pieces of paper that say people own land. Each to his own beliefs....I am not criticising your beliefs , as you Wills started off all this criticism. Maybe thats all you can do, criticise and find faults? :( Why dont you criticise those who stole the churchyard in the first place,surely thats a greater crime???
Didnt someone say once ...Let him without sin caste the first stone.....think a bit deeper before you get on your high horse and call people thieves and assume the role of a judge...it could be you who ends up the loser
Dragonman
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Hi Guys,
its a really nice bow, by the way, but could I refer you guys to the thread I started on this very topic here http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,50843
as we have kinda been here before. Happy Christmas and Nadolig LLawen pawb :)
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Nadolig Llawen! Were you aware of the warbow shoot in Monmouth this Christmas? Lovely shoot, and local to you if you're in Cardiff! ;)
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We're funny????We are'nt ranting and raving.Now that's funny in a sick way I don't see.Now you want to talk religion as an excuse and want to quote the bible.None of us are without sin.You chose thieving.End of that.That's too bad your church is that way.There are things here in the US that are not fair either.You want everyone to see your points but none of the others.Your story changes as things go along.Now you say you had permission.
Let me ask you this and this I think is very funny.How many trees have you planted?I can honestly say I've planted over 10,000 trees.Took care of them.Not for me mostly but for future generations.What exactly type of vision are you talking about for the betterment of trees.If it makes you feel better to say you got permission from the tree.Fine.Have you ever heard one say no don't cut me down today.There's not a bow in me.I expect not.Do you think the Indians asked a tree if it wanted to become firewood?I lived next to Indians where I come from.
I've done tons more praising on here than criticizing.It's just that it's about you now.
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I doubt any Indian has EVER cut a living tree for firewood. ;)
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I thought religion and politics were a no-no on this site.
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beadman I havent changed my story in the slightest!!, are you sure you have been reading carefully from the begining? ...right at the start I said I asked permission from God, I repeated exactly the same thing later..
The stave came from a churchyard that is why God got involved...I am not using religion to justify anything, I'm not even religous, I'm a true Heathen, although I do believe in God....Its a christan churchyard, thats why I bought Jesus into it, he should know about these ethical things. Its a very relevant point, it wasnt some humans private garden or personal property.
I posted a bow here for peoples pleasure, then uexpectedly, 2 people got on their high horse and started criticising me..about the ethics of taking wood. Now this is an interesting thing, so I presented another perspective...no one is criticising you anyway, why are you even getting involved, why are you defending yourself? from what?....you do things your way , I'll do things mine..go and join an ethics forum or something. No one else here seems to have problem
enough time wasted, I'm not answering anything else
well done for planting all those trees, good luck with your land and bowmaking, I'd like to see some of your bows some time.
You too WillS...I respect your opinions ...I personnaly have no hard feelings towards you and hope you dont either....at least you expressed what you believe and didnt just sit on the fence..I look forward to seeing your bows too
let a man be judged by his works...
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No hard feelings here either. I apologise for the tone of my comments - I should have said nothing at all!
I have just finished a Yew bow today, so will post it up in the Warbow section. Frankly, its not as pretty as yours!
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Well Dragonman, you learned one thing here. If you bow has a questionable history, don't talk about it. ;D ;D ;D
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My neighbor is a pastafarian. He's got a nice car, so I asked his car if I could be it's new owner. He said sure buddy. That's what I heard anyways, my carspeak is rusty. Then I cooked up some pasta and it was delicious, so I took that as a good omen from the God of my neighbor. After all, can anyone truly own a car? The title is just a piece of paper. All the components came from the earth, which no one can truly own.
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Yep, it is a nice bow. :) Gotta love that yew :) I likes me eggs poached(but bought from a store), and my yew toasted into a nice reflex. A slightly belated Merry Christmas to all bowyers. :D
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I'm sure there are several scenarios where even the most righteous on here would bend the rules. We have a conservation area here that is split by a section of power lines. Both areas are absolutely off limits for harvesting materials and you're NOT going to get permission. However the power line area is absolutely mowed to the ground periodically and the Conservation area sustains collateral damage on the edges.
The Dogwood growing on the power line section reaches nice arrow size in a few years and the Birch trees mutilated along the edges have piles of nice bark.
Would you just take some of these?
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Dragonman......I was sticking up for a person I thought was right after the conversation got sarcastic and vile.Why it did I don't know.I have been stolen upon and poached upon before here so it's a touchy subject with me.Something you seemed not to grasp.I ask permission to get dogwood out of ditches from the land owner.Does'nt hurt my pride in the least.To me it's still a matter of respect and understanding for the person.Wood is a renewable resource to be managed properly for future generations.It is not my profession.I do not ask permission from a tree.I replace it.I hate seeing 80 or 90 year old trees get torn up by storms.It's a shame.Some misunderstanding was made here.I agree the conversation got too personal for what was supposed to be about a bow.I am far from perfect.You are making nice bows.I understand your feelings.I have nothing to hide here and good luck with your bowmaking and plans.
Pat M......I can show you there are Indians who do own chain saws and cut down live trees for firewood.
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Well Pat if they want electricity trees are out.The dogwood you could possibly know someone to get permission to get some before they get cut down since they replace themselves,and I'll leave your righteous comment alone.