Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: Lucasade on April 25, 2016, 02:43:51 am
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So I've finally got a bit of time to crack on with this - it's all roughed out and I'm doing the final shaping before it goes on the tiller (which will be when I've built the tiller rig...). Am I right in thinking the ideal shape is an inflated square? And is there any advantage to slightly trapping the back?
Also one limb has a lot of reflex and the other is nearly flat, so I'm thinking it will make my life easier if I steam out some or all of the reflex before I start tillering. I will be heat treating further down the line.
Finally I'm aiming for 70-80# @30" with side nocks - do I need nock overlays during tillering or on the finished bow?
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Trapping the back depends on the quality of the timber. There are some that say all white woods need to be trapped (especially for heavy bows) but if the wood is good enough in compression it doesn't require it at all. Bend tests will help you decide that, otherwise the best anybody else can do is guess and offer personal opinion.
Ideal shape is again whatever you think will suit that particular piece of hazel best. There are "safe" cross sections such as a rounded back and flat belly, and a straightforward rectangle with the corners rounded, but you may well find that despite starting with a particular shape in mind, as you tiller and learn how the wood is behaving that will change before the bow is finished. I've seen guys over in Scandinavia who make warbows almost exclusively with white woods use almost circular sections for hazel, ash, elm and other white wood bows up to about 140lb or so, as the timber they select can take that approach without failing.
Helpful right?! :P
I guess if you want to play it safe, and potentially have a slightly over-built and slower bow but a heavy working bow nonetheless, keep everything as flat as possible on the belly, keep the bow wider than usual and make sure the corners on the back of the bow are heavily rounded - perhaps not to the extent of trapping, but definitely knock the corners off and smooth it out.
Oh, and definitely don't shape the final 12" or so of each limb until it's well past brace height. Otherwise you'll suddenly find yourself with all sorts of alignment issues, width issues and so on. White woods are fussy, and you gotta let 'em be that way ;)
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Don't need nock overlays, no. When I'm making bows with sidenocks I cut the tillering nocks on the side straight away into the bare wood, and leave them like that until the bow is finished. Especially at 80lb or something, you're not going to have an issue. You can actually leave the tips completely bare on the finished bow, with no horn at all. The horn is only for soft woods like yew, which can be chewed up by a string.
If you're feeling particularly confident, and the brace shape is looking really good and you're happy that the bow will finish without breaking (and there are no chrysals!) you can fit horn nocks to the bow once you're at brace height on the tiller.
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That's great Will thanks. I'm definitely playing it safe on this one! Maybe in 20 years I'll be in a position to re-tiler it ???
One big thing I learnt from the bow I made for my boy is that the wood tells you what it wants to do during tillering, it came out a somewhat different shape than it started and what I envisioned it would do.
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Can't add to what Will said, he's spot on with those observations and advise!
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I'd go wide (40mm), flattish heat treated belly, trapped back.
That should minimise the chance of breakage or chrsals.
This post from my blog gives some idea of the cross section on the one I made.
http://bowyersdiary.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/first-test-shots.html (http://bowyersdiary.blogspot.co.uk/2015/04/first-test-shots.html)
Del
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I heavily modified Del's design to make a 30# hazel longbow, it shoots really nicely and no crysals - cheers Del !
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It's been roughed out to the dimensions on the Norwegian Warbows site for a 90#er - I figured if I'm aiming for about 70 this would give me plenty of wriggle room. It's helpful to see the profile picture - thank you.
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Just out of interest, if I trap the back too much how will I know? Ideally before I end up with a tension break of course... ::)
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That's why you probably shouldn't bother, until you know you have to. It's a waste of energy if the wood doesn't need it, and at 80lb I'd say you almost certainly don't need to.
Make the bow as you would anyway, get the corners rounded and smoothed out, and if it starts showing set across the entire bow, you can ease the back corners off slightly more until you're happy. Trying to make a white wood bow ready from the very beginning is a pretty good recipe for disaster. You can do it with yew as it can take more abuse than most people can throw at it, but try it with white woods and they'll kick you in the teeth ;)
I have a feeling you're probably twiddling your thumbs a bit, waiting for a proper tiller tree setup. That's exactly when you make mistakes that you regret afterwards. Put the bow away somewhere, and don't look at it again until the tillering tree is ready.
Go on. Put it down. Put... the bow... down....
And have a cup of tea.
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It's been put away for the last six months! At the moment I'm just scraping down the drawknife marks and rounding off the corners. Once that's done it will definitely go away until the tillering rig is ready. I've got elm, elder, laburnum and yew to play with in the meantime!
I like to get all the possibilities right in my head before I pick up any tools, and the difference between what you've said and the profile Del had on his page is quite significant so there's lots of space for rumination. In particular I'm trying to get straight what the difference exactly means and when the right time to move towards one or the other is, so lots of different opinions is really useful for me.
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That cross section on Dels page is really quite extreme, and something I'd personally consider only for very low quality timber. Bear in mind that with good hazel you can get away with a flat back and rounded belly, much like a Yew bow. Trapping to that extent may be necessary depending on what the wood starts to do, but I certainly wouldn't recommend it as a "normal" approach to normal hazel.
If you're really worried, taking off 1/8" from the edges of the back would be very safe. Nowhere near enough to affect the bow's lifespan, and enough to have some contribution to reducing the ratio of tension/compression wood.
Honestly though, a simple bend test with an offcut will tell you all you need to know. All wood is different, so you have to be prepared to adjust each time. Not saying you don't know that of course, but following one extreme example isn't always the best approach.
I can remember being told countless times that ash needs a trapped back and flat belly, over and over again and when I made that 140lb ash bow it has neither because I simply couldn't be bothered!
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I guess what I'm saying essentially is that you may well end up with a highly crowned and trapped back and flat belly, and that's fine, but to start there is possibly a bad move. You can always remove wood from the edges if the bow needs it, but you can't put it back on if you discover you've over-done the trapping.
Start rectangular, adjust as the timber wants you to. Or something flowery and vague like that :D
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So the time to adjust is if it seems to be taking excessive set, or is that too late?
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If you start getting set at brace height or before/just after, and the wood is dry as a bone and well seasoned trapping would be a very good idea. If you're getting "normal" amounts of set (1-3") just at the 18", 20" mark then heat treating will do the job.
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That's great - thank you.
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If I had 3 inches of set at 18 -20 inches I'd use it for kindling.....
Trapping is a very good idea. Hazel is very strong in tension and not so great in compression. Heat treating does wonders for it.
How do know when you have overdone trapping....when you raise a splinter.
As Will says though a bend test will tell you everything you need to know.
However I have never yet touched a piece of whitewood that didn't benefit from trapping and heat treating. Of course you can make bows without it but you can make a better bow with it!
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It's probably a bit late for bend testing - everything between a log and what I've got now went up the chimney six months ago ???
I've tidied up about two thirds of it with the scraper and last night steamed out the massive reflex in one limb so when it's settled down again I'll do a bit of trapping. Heat treating is on the agenda but I understand I need to wait until most of the way through tillering before doing that.
I also need to dig out the two little knots you thought could be a problem before I get too much further. Am I right in thinking I fill them with superglue mixed with sawdust?
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Don't need nock overlays, no. When I'm making bows with sidenocks I cut the tillering nocks on the side straight away into the bare wood, and leave them like that until the bow is finished. Especially at 80lb or something, you're not going to have an issue. You can actually leave the tips completely bare on the finished bow, with no horn at all. The horn is only for soft woods like yew, which can be chewed up by a string.
Hmm - I put it up on the tiller just now and the string split the top nock. I was pulling it to 100# which may have something to do with it, or I've not cut the nock deep enough or I need tip overlays. Can anyone put up a picture of what a proper self side nock should look like please? Meantime I've got some yew heartwood scraps so I'll rasp down the nocks and fit some overlays I think.
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Put on horn overlays or full horn nocks.
If it has split, it's telling you to listen to the wood rather than dubious advice.
Del
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I shall redouble my efforts to find some cow horn. If this makes it it will get full horn nocks as the string has grooved the wood around the bottom nock too after only about 20 flexes.
Will some hardwood do for overlays in the meantime?
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I shall redouble my efforts to find some cow horn. If this makes it it will get full horn nocks as the string has grooved the wood around the bottom nock too after only about 20 flexes.
Will some hardwood do for overlays in the meantime?
Highland horn sell nice pale horn tips, I've had it described as both cow horn and Waterbuffalo horn. If you tell him what it's for he will sell you decent stuff. He sounds a bit dour on the phone but is very helpfull. I buy reasonable quantities and he throws in extra srappy bits which are fine for nocks and arrowplates. Most of the tips he sells as for a nocks will actually make a pair of 'em. The black stuff is cheaper but not so nice on a warbow.
If you just want some bits for overlays, PM me and I can send you some offcuts.
Del
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Thank you - PM sent.
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Certainly shouldn't need tip overlays or horn with hazel. I'd imagine your string is slightly too thin which will bite in and split the wood, or the nock was a bit dodgy. Fitting yew overlays won't do anything, as yew is much softer than hazel.
They need to be nice and rounded, very smooth and not too deep. Side nocks are quite fiddly, and it's easy to make a hash of them (or treat them as if they're normal nocks cut on one side only) which I assume is why most bowyers just ignore them, despite the fact that they're probably the only way English longbows/warbows were made until Victorian times! Stick with it, cos once you get them to work it's very rewarding. Especially when nobody else is doing it ;)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7031/26713359984_e68164f5cd_k.jpg)
(https://c5.staticflickr.com/8/7113/27223396612_3cf6736fbb_b.jpg)
(https://c3.staticflickr.com/8/7411/26713481354_3bcc1cc71a_b.jpg)
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Thanks for the pics - I'm using 12-strand linen string which doesn't seem overly thin, but I'm going with overlays now as I'd rather not lose the bow. Nock a bit dodgy is highly likely!
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String sounds fine. Maybe there was just an edge or something that focused too much stress in a small spot? Pretty unusual though. It's more common to have the horn itself fail, which is why it's so important to file through the horn deep into the wooden tip at quite a large angle.
I've seen lots of people make them like Victorian nocks and just twist the whole thing around to one side, which looks awful and is a recipe for disaster - especially with buffalo horn.
Post pics of what you've done - always easier to see what's going on!
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Okay, new month, new broadband data allowance >:(
Here's some pics of the bottom nock. The top nock was very similar but has now been rasped down flat ready for overlays.
(http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj535/lucasade2/image_zpslg8fvijc.jpeg)
(http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj535/lucasade2/image_zpssncyjily.jpeg)
(http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj535/lucasade2/image_zpsrojaaeoz.jpeg)
(http://i1266.photobucket.com/albums/jj535/lucasade2/image_zps1y3lxqic.jpeg)
On the last one you can see where the string is already wearing the wood and it's only had about 20 flexes on the tiller.
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Yep - wrong angle, too shallow and nasty sharp edges! :D
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Shallow and sharp edges is easy - does the angle need to be steeper or shallower?
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Slightly shallower - almost square to the back. And make sure it's subtly curved downwards, like a frowning face.
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When in doubt, copy Dave Pim. He's the master of the sidenock.
The tutorial here is for horn, but it works perfectly straight into the wood. Note the soft curve on his string grooves, especially on the bottom images.
http://www.theenglishwarbowsociety.com/TudorSidenocks2015.html
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I've looked at that article and Alanesq's version many timesand thiught I'd got it figured out - I guess you only find stuff out when you actually try it. I think I need to reshape the nocks on my boy's bow too now! Thank you.
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Looking at the article again it suggests tat the bottom nock will be almost square on to take the knot, and the top nock will be at more of an angle. Is this right?
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If you're using a knot, yes. Personally I use double loop strings with my sidenocks, so both nocks are cut at the same angle. I've got no experience using a knot with them, so couldn't say.
You might find the nocks end up quite different to how you imagine them. It's hard to get a true perspective using photos, and experimentation is often the only way to fill in the gaps. Start exaggerated and you might be closer than you think - make them extra large, extra rounded, extra curved and so on.