Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: Ian. on June 12, 2016, 04:41:04 am
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I'm going to post this here as well as do a video showing the the full process of making a bow. I'll eventually post it to YouTube but it'll be good to have the pictures on the go too.
I'll pretty much be explaining everything I can about making heavy bows and I'm starting with one of the best staves you can find.
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj93/iansturges/Length%20_zpspbxmbnqd.jpg)
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj93/iansturges/Side_zpscxavsxyz.jpg)
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj93/iansturges/Grain_zpsrbmoz7pp.jpg)
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What a stunning piece of wood; we can only dream about the stuff here.
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Wow, that is an amazing looking stave Ian :P, looking forward to following this thread, thanks 8) what kind of weight are you thinking of, or just going with the flow?
Ruddy
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This one is planned to be around 150lb @ 30" for myself. I'm aiming for the fastest bow I can make and will be copying as close as possible a true MR bow.
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That's a nice piece of wood. English or Pacific?
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Pacific Yew, I do have a few English Yew staves close to this in quality but next bow will be one I part made years ago and that's not clean at all.
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This one is planned to be around 150lb @ 30" for myself. I'm aiming for the fastest bow I can make and will be copying as close as possible a true MR bow.
That's a fair ol' weight Ian, should get the knees knockin' and the teeth rattlin' :D ,
Ruddy.
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150 lbs ,Have you started your muscle building exercises yet ?
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Lovely piece of wood Ian
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That stave seems really top quality!!!
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Is the Buildalong going to happen?
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It will happen, all be it along with five other bows so progress is slow.
Update; knocks have been put on and the bow has been worked down to about 1250 grams which is about right for the weight I am going for.
Although the stave is really good it works horribly, splits and tears about as bad as any wood I've used before. This is more of a good sign for the final bow though. Next stage will be finishing the knocks and stringing it for the first time. As it's already the right physical weight I don't expect to spend much time working the limbs down.
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj93/iansturges/DSC_0216_zpsozizkska.jpg)
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj93/iansturges/DSC_0258_zps0zz9rzqg.jpg)
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj93/iansturges/DSC_0267_zps78oa4xoa.jpg)
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj93/iansturges/DSC_0268_zpswdxlillr.jpg)
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj93/iansturges/DSC_0271_zpsyh7nsblq.jpg)
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj93/iansturges/DSC_0289_zpsyi5jcgil.jpg)
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Well.. That was a fast buildalong 😢
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Don't worry I've been videoing the process
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Ah great! Looking forward to watching the video 😉
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the bow has been worked down to about 1250 grams which is about right for the weight I am going for.
I've never heard of reducing the stave by weight. Is this in liu of floor tillering? Is it similar to Badgers "Mass Principle"?
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It's exactly Steve's mass principle, with some alterations based on experience, I've adjusted his formula but it's very accurate for longbows. My process is to get a stave roughed out, do lots of measurements and checks then weigh it and this forms my initial tillering. I never use long strings, as you can see from this I've fitted the knocks before even bending it once. I'm sure this is how bows would have been made 500+ years ago.
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Nice work Ian, looking great so far. Enjoying this thread 8)
What sort of bow length do you have or aiming to have to go with that weight and draw?
Ruddy.
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Ah that's what I forgot to say, it's 81" long and I'll keep that as the final length. Aiming for 150 @ 30". Ideally the physical weight should be 1150grams but as long as I get it to that physical weight after 20" then I wont do any damage to the bow.
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A little heavy eh? 😉
I wish I could pull at least 80# haha
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Done the final check before stringing it, (first picture) Balancing in the middle let's you see if the limbs are even. At this point I'm looking for the bow to be exactly balanced in the middle, this, with an even taper will always give a near correct tiller.
Here are some stills from the video
Second picture shows that I need to make a stringing jig as it's far too heavy at this point for me to string by myself. (I can easily string 170lb bows but new ones are extra static)
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj93/iansturges/DSC_0095_Moment_zpspbcyochr.jpg)
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj93/iansturges/DSC_0087_Moment_zpsgo0yqg9k.jpg)
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Dang! That's looking so darn heavy!!
Everytime I string a very heavy bow, I have the feeling it's gonna explode on me, not sure why 😂
Keep it up!
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Looking at the second oicture you may want to adjust your lifting technique - it would be bad to ruin your back with most of your life in front of you...
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Dang! That's looking so darn heavy!!
Everytime I string a very heavy bow, I have the feeling it's gonna explode on me, not sure why 😂
Keep it up!
Yeah and it'll hurt if it does go pop, I think you just have to brave it. These big bows aren't that likely to explode when stringing as long as the nocks are strong.
Lucasade: you're right I should
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So I hit the 28" mark and realised my calculations were slightly off, I forgot to allow for the reflex in the stave so at 1151 grams it's come out at 170lb at 30"
Unfortunately the video is dark but I'll shoot it again on the tiller and from a better angle doing the final weigh-in in a few days.
Unstrung the stave now shows slightly less reflex, it's basically dead straight and there is no sign of compression marks at all. I'm really happy with how this one has come out although it still needs sanding and finishing.
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj93/iansturges/tillergood28_zpsywllhk8x.jpg)
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj93/iansturges/DSC_0147_Moment2_zpscawgbmsz.jpg)
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Beautiful looking bow Ian, well done! Nice to see it done so cleanly without long string tillering!
Are you on top of 170lb yet? If I remember correctly you were shooting 160lb a few years back?
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Lordy Murphy me boots son, that's some pull!!!
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Very impressive Ian, really nice result in a short period of time. 8)
The weighing method seems very effective.
Ruddy.
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Very very nice, coming along great!
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Impressive, both the coming bow and the way of working.
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He!! of a stick for a bow and good way tillering to final outcome.Powerful shooter there.Confidence in past bow making of this kind makes this look easy but I'm sure it's not.Never made one of this type yet.I do the mass weighing thing though doing flat bows from floor tiller to short string and am pleased with the results too.
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Nice! :)
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Build along?! More like a "Built along"!! Awesome work.
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Ajooter, he'll be posting a video of all the steps he did , so yeah 👍
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Now it's all finished I will be making the video - I'm a better bow maker than editor as it turns out so fingers crossed.
Courtesy picture
(http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj93/iansturges/PIcture1%2026_zpsfdhts9cy.jpg)
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I do it the same way you do, I rough them out by mass weight. It always gets me very close, sometimes too close for comfort LOL. Beautiful job on that bow. I sure hope you can make it to the narionals one day. That bow would also qualify as a self bow in the broadhead class. I doubt anyone could get near it with anything past or present.
The tiller is beautful.
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I was watchin a guy on you tube crank back a 225# elb on his tiller tree. Every time he stopped cranking to check weight you could see the weight just dropping. I don't know if it was his first time drawing it or if it had been drawn several times before but it lost a ton of weight in compression. He didn't show the unbraced profile but I bet it had taken some serious set.
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Thanks for the comments Steve.
About the compression: I did film that on this bow so when the video is done my tilering process can be seen. As a rule of thumb I think 20" is when you can start to notice damage to the bow. When I first hit 20" on the tiller this bow was 120lb exactly then when I drew it to 28" I reweighed it at 20" and the weight was 114lb so it lost 6lb through that 8 inches of bending. That is pretty damn good for a bow of this weight and I know that is the reason it didn't take set and the string is very taunt when braced. It's all about the principle of tillering a bow when you know it's going to bend near perfectly first time.
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6# loss at that kind of weight is a tripple a+ for tillering. As you say get it started right and it will likley stay right if designed properly.
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Considering the profile you held I believe that bow has the ability to break a record that might stand for decades to come. I would consider shooting it in self broadhead as well as elb unlimited flight.
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I'm not very strong at the minute and to get anything in distance you have to pull the bow easily and really get a god loose - that isn't me at the minute. A friend of mine is keen to shoot it and he could easily. For now this bow gets put with half a dozen others until I get myself back into these weights.
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Nice work Ian, great to see you building big bows again. You have a ripper bow there from a stunning stave. Very interested in your tillering process and like you I try getting the nocks on as soon as possible. After meeting with Jake he explained you guys don't piss about bending the stick and tiller incredibly quickly, something I would like to adopt. You make a good point about balancing the bow from center and this is something I will be doing from now on.
Cheers
Aaron
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Cheers Aaron, I haven't posted this one on Facebook yet I'll wait until the video is done.
In total I think it was on the tiller for 20 minutes, strung maybe an hour in total. If it wasn't for me having to get the camera in order and take pictures it would have been strung only as much as I was tillering it. Now it's never going to be put back on the tiller again and probably only string a few times this year. I wouldn't even say this was a serious flight bow :/
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It would interesting to keep weighing it at a set drawlength during it lifespan to see if the weight drops as it 'beds in' so to speak. I fully concure that if you get the tapers right the tiller will be right. I just get a bit iffy when I read - you guys don't piss about bending the stick and tiller incredibly quickly....
Impressive stuff nonetheless.
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Let us know when you get the video ready!
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All the footage is there just need to cut it down from 20 minutes
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Patience is a virtue, I don't have much of it 😂
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Patience is a virtue, I don't have much of it 😂
That is exactly what makes a good bow maker ;D
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Hardly a build along!
Also I know of a few English bowyers. Don't you guys over there believe bowmaking is some kind of secret that only a few can know? Surely you will get int trouble for sharing these "secrets" in an all telling video lol
Never understood that as it's all in books anyway ::)
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Hardly a build along!
Also I know of a few English bowyers. Don't you guys over there believe bowmaking is some kind of secret that only a few can know? Surely you will get int trouble for sharing these "secrets" in an all telling video lol
Never understood that as it's all in books anyway ::)
Err no....;)
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Hardly a build along!
Also I know of a few English bowyers. Don't you guys over there believe bowmaking is some kind of secret that only a few can know? Surely you will get int trouble for sharing these "secrets" in an all telling video lol
Never understood that as it's all in books anyway ::)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sR28fBBADdY&index=1&list=PLBz2tD9476KRkSOSICLsc-zj5ADyPKLZB (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sR28fBBADdY&index=1&list=PLBz2tD9476KRkSOSICLsc-zj5ADyPKLZB)
Del
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Ok well fair enough to you Del.
I've come across quite a few snooty UK bowyers though; especially those who build longbows. I tried to book a course with a guy when I was over visiting. Said he only taught laminate courses as yew longbow building was a secret ???
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Ok well fair enough to you Del.
I've come across quite a few snooty UK bowyers though; especially those who build longbows. I tried to book a course with a guy when I was over visiting. Said he only taught laminate courses as yew longbow building was a secret ???
One man is not representative of a whole country.....Who are you talking about? I know most of them and there aren't that many.
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How was this a build along anyhow?
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When people say there are secrets they don't want to share it normally means they have nothing to offer.
If we're talking about good bow makers there only one or two you could even get a heavy self yew bow from.
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Watched the video Del, it's a nice explanation. I would certainly consider mounting the bow in a way where it can't move and wiggle around. I clamp them down often to prevent this so you only see the action of the bow limbs being tillered
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When people say there are secrets they don't want to share it normally means they have nothing to offer.
This is true in MANY disciplines, not just the art and craft of bow making! The first whiff of this attitude and I cut ties with the person. Period. Let's just say I have a long history of dealing with these kind of people and have lost all tolerance.
And that is why after something like 9 years, I am still dedicated to this forum and a vast and overwhelming majority of the users here.
Post on, Ian!
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Del, thanks for posting the video, loved it , really helpful to see everything. 👍
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When people say there are secrets they don't want to share it normally means they have nothing to offer.
If we're talking about good bow makers there only one or two you could even get a heavy self yew bow from.
Who are the bowyers for MR replicas? Did a google search and found quite a few. Mostly UK based.
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When people say there are secrets they don't want to share it normally means they have nothing to offer.
If we're talking about good bow makers there only one or two you could even get a heavy self yew bow from.
Who are the bowyers for MR replicas? Did a google search and found quite a few. Mostly UK based.
Roy King was the one who made them but that was years ago, and sadly he passed away. Others have made 'replicas' but never convincingly. The rest of the crowd were historians, archers and an actor who knew a bit about archery. Nowadays you're limited
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When people say there are secrets they don't want to share it normally means they have nothing to offer.
If we're talking about good bow makers there only one or two you could even get a heavy self yew bow from.
Who are the bowyers for MR replicas? Did a google search and found quite a few. Mostly UK based.
Roy King was the one who made them but that was years ago, and sadly he passed away. Others have made 'replicas' but never convincingly. The rest of the crowd were historians, archers and an actor who knew a bit about archery. Nowadays you're limited
What makes a true MR replica? Please explain
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From your photo's, it does look like a nice big chunky bow. Nice bend on it.
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When people say there are secrets they don't want to share it normally means they have nothing to offer.
If we're talking about good bow makers there only one or two you could even get a heavy self yew bow from.
Who are the bowyers for MR replicas? Did a google search and found quite a few. Mostly UK based.
Roy King was the one who made them but that was years ago, and sadly he passed away. Others have made 'replicas' but never convincingly. The rest of the crowd were historians, archers and an actor who knew a bit about archery. Nowadays you're limited
What makes a true MR replica? Please explain
A bow of the right wood and dimensions as an original. Follow the spec of one of the MR bows and don't rely on averages all the time. One bow maker who insists MR bows are only 100lb uses the length of the longest bow and the dimensions of the thinnest bows and the result is obviously something lighter than what was used.
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Are you putting up a video?
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It's just uploading to YouTube which could take a few hours, link will be posted when it's up.
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Youre way of building the bow seems interesting. ;)
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The secrecy silliness would be due to people taking themselves too seriously.
This site is for people to share information and ideas.
If someone has set themselves up as a 'professional' bowyer and has joined a 'Guild' then they may adopt some of the practices of bowyers of the past!
One of them being to keep the tricks of the trade secret from all but their apprentice!
It's pretty harmless really because plenty of us amateurs are on sites like this and are only too happy to share our collective wisdom about any challenge you may encounter.
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The secrecy silliness would be due to people taking themselves too seriously.
This site is for people to share information and ideas.
If someone has set themselves up as a 'professional' bowyer and has joined a 'Guild' then they may adopt some of the practices of bowyers of the past!
One of them being to keep the tricks of the trade secret from all but their apprentice!
It's pretty harmless really because plenty of us amateurs are on sites like this and are only too happy to share our collective wisdom about any challenge you may encounter.
Let's be clear the Guild is about target archery and very few of them have knowledge that would be recognised to a medieval bow maker.
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Here's the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5fHMs9ca74&feature=youtu.be enjoy.
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Excellent video Ian, well done!
Seeing that bow in person was a real pleasure, its absolutely beautiful.
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Awesome video Ian! Warbows are one of the reasons I really got into archery. I'll make one sooner or later! Cheers- Brendan
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Thanks for the video Ian, ace stuff and good to see how and what tools you used. 8)
Ruddy.
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Excellent video. Don't know how you can stand having the bow rock up and down in the vice like that :D :D :D
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DC I was thinking the same thing. I know that would drive me nuts!
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Now I'm used to doing it like that I couldn't bring myself to tighten that vice any more if I wanted to ::)
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You made it look easy, Ian. I let my stave rock in the vice the same way. When I don't want it moving I bace the tip against my hip.
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I put a prop under the tip.
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Nice.
Also nice to see the growth ring thing put to bed.....hopefully
How do you work around knots on the back?
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Nice video - too bad the stave was so perfect, it would be more educational to see the transformation of a knotty, twisted piece of yew. :P Just kidding, the video's great and the bow just seems just... perfect.
Growth rings not being chased? And I've almost gone blind from trying to follow a ring on my current bow!
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Nice video - too bad the stave was so perfect, it would be more educational to see the transformation of a knotty, twisted piece of yew. :P Just kidding, the video's great and the bow just seems just... perfect.
Growth rings not being chased? And I've almost gone blind from trying to follow a ring on my current bow!
As long as you don't take off loads in one go you'll be fine. On this bow they gradually taper off towards the tip, spaced an inch or so away from each other.
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Beautiful bow Ian. I downloaded video so I could have it at any time as a reference for my future longbows.
I wanted to ask you something. I am starting now with building warbows and I decided to make somewhere 70 - 80# longbow from hazel to be entry into whole heavier bows build. I used dimensions from Norwegian Warbows website and bow barely bends at floor tiller, more like one limb bends nice and other doesn't.
I am curious as to why that is, as I saw you saying multiple times, how when you make longbow according to dimensions of, for example, MR bows, you get almost tillered one, that just needs minor adjustment on tiller and is even ready for brace before putting it at tiller.
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What I go by is the MR dimensions with wood I know to be very similar but mostly I weigh the wood and make sure the mass is right for the bow weight I want to make. If you don't have the 'Mass Calculator' I can easily email it to you - get my email address from my website.
When you have the right mass of wood to make the bow weight you want and you get the stave very close in taper and size so that it bend well first time then yep, just brace it and tiller quickly.
The caveat is that it took me many dozens of bows to be able to get the tiller almost perfect from the roughing out stage.
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I could tell you for a fact that my current bow build has been both tapered in width and thickness with calipers, meaning, its almost perfect according to measurements. That is why I was wondering why does limbs not work evenly in floor tillering. I don't have yet wall tiller so I don't know how it really bends but I am not satisfied with floor tiller.
So the key is lots of experience and bit of the science. I would really like to get my hands on that calculator. Thanks for offering.
Is it "sales@bostonbows.co.uk" your mail or you mean some other?
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Yeah that's the email - I wasn't going to post it on PA as I didn't know if it was allowed.
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I don't want to open new topic for my question, so I will put it here as its about mass calculator. What should I put into this variables:
- nock position (+ reflex, - deflex)
- handle (non bending)
If I tiller a longbow, do I put "0" into handle as everything bends? If I tiller bow with non moving handle, do I put 8" in it, as I make handle length 4" and 2" fades from both sides?
What means nock position and reflex, deflex in it?
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Nock position should be the actual bow as it is to begin with. So if the stave has 2" reflex then -2 and if it has deflex naturally then +2. Reflex will make a lighter bow and deflex will make a heavier bow.
Steve's advice on the handle area was a 4" non-bending handle on ELB's, that seems to work pretty well. Although every part of the bow should bend, the calculator works best with that value added.
Just have a play and change variable one at a time; you'll see that differences will normally be very small +/- 20 grams for an inch of reflex. So don't worry too much about getting it perfect, work to a slightly wider goal to start with.
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Wait, reflex is when the tips looking from side are pointing towards "target" when unbraced and in deflex is when they point away from "target" when unbraced. How will reflex be lighter bow then? I am confused...
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Reflex would, all other things being equal, require less mass of working wood in the bow to achieve the same draw weight/energy storage, would it not?
Where does one find this mass calculation? TBB IV? Must get that...
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Wait, reflex is when the tips looking from side are pointing towards "target" when unbraced and in deflex is when they point away from "target" when unbraced. How will reflex be lighter bow then? I am confused...
When I say weight I mean mass, (physical mass of the bow) A reflexed bow will be lighter all things being equal.
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Ok, thank you for clarification.