Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Shooting and Hunting => Topic started by: Stringman on June 18, 2016, 12:17:53 pm
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I have a trip planned with Mr Riley in ID this Sept and it's getting close enough I need to be making some decisions. The goal is elk/bear and my brother, Tell and I will all have tags.
Bow - I was gifted a beautiful custom lam bow from Thad and while I have never been a fiberglass bow guy, this bow was built for this hunt so I would have a hard time leaving it home. I will probably bring an Osage self bow as backup, but plan to hunt the soy bow primarily.
Arrows - speed v momentum. Old question, not sure there is a hard answer, but give me your opinions anyway.
Huntin heads - stone v steel. Both are legal in ID; both are proven. I know how I feel, but want to know if there is something or some aspect I'm overlooking. Let's here your feelings.
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Congrats on the elk hunt bud!
Let's see, if I had your talents, especially with flint knapping I would definitely go with some stone points.
I've hunted elk on Colorado several times. Only a few times when I shot a wheelie bow. I shot a cow with my bow the first time and only had about 8 inches of penitration. The next year I got me some heavy arrows and shot another cow and buried it clean to the fletchings.
So I would go for hard hitting and a heavier arrow.
It would be cool to see you take an elk completely primitive. But I would us the best possible setup. If that means using more modern equipment then that's cool. Because some people only get to elk hunt once in their life. I've been lucky, elk hunting is part of our family tradition. Just my 2 cents.
Patrick
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never been elk huntin but know guys that have kilt moose and caribou with selfbows and stone points. your points are more than worthy of the task. and i agree with Patrick, prolly a heavier arrow.
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I hunted Colorado 2 times and both times with selfbows or sinew backed bows(55#@26"), arrows were either hill cane or sourwood shoot arrows with trade points or Wensel Woodsman(stone illegal in CO). Arrows weighed from 550gr to 650gr.
Shoot heavy arrows and between now and your hunt practice, practice, practice and learn the trajectory of your arrows.
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550, or 750?
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s670/cotton7611/1BAA7FFB-4DF5-4D05-BE73-E8B6E2600356_zpsxdfka5q0.jpg) (http://s1311.photobucket.com/user/cotton7611/media/1BAA7FFB-4DF5-4D05-BE73-E8B6E2600356_zpsxdfka5q0.jpg.html)
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s670/cotton7611/F748CD73-CB2C-4892-A0AD-AC3978269360_zpslz6wptbj.jpg) (http://s1311.photobucket.com/user/cotton7611/media/F748CD73-CB2C-4892-A0AD-AC3978269360_zpslz6wptbj.jpg.html)
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Scott, first CONGRATS! on an ID elk hunt. I love elk meat. Had some steaks on the grill the other night. My friend and I will be heading to Colorado again this year. Last two weeks of archery season. Been running 2-4 miles every other day for the last month and hope to continue up to departure day. Mountains will kick your backside.
I truly admire your determination to stay primitive with your gear. What a fantastic reward you will have. Elk as you know are big animals but put that arrow in the right spot and it is done. I would think the 560 weight arrow would be perfect but I put more into being FOC or weight forward arrows. I would be curious to know the weight of the stone points compared to the steel ones. If they weigh in about the same then there shouldn't be much difference in performance. If the steel is considerably heavier then that could influence me to use them.
I also know you are spirit guided and you should always follow your instinct. It always guides you where you need to be. Looking forward to your story of the hunt! Good Luck to you and your hunt party!
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My stone points weigh what I want them to. There is no difference in weight.
(http://i1311.photobucket.com/albums/s670/cotton7611/60C47206-28B4-4081-8666-88508E0B441E_zpsjwmbuoq3.jpg) (http://s1311.photobucket.com/user/cotton7611/media/60C47206-28B4-4081-8666-88508E0B441E_zpsjwmbuoq3.jpg.html)
You're right on about the mountains kickin our butt. My brother and I are making regular hikes with packs on. I do t run anymore, but figure I can walk bout as far as the next guy.
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What's the draw weight of your bow?
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About 52#@28"
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My Opinion: In the old days when I lived on a ranch half way between Cody and Yellowstone I hunted with stones, Port Orford cedar select shafts, and a fiber glass recurve I made. It was 65# at 28". I still have that bow and am going to go today to shoot carp with it. I managed to kill mule deer, elk, black bear and moose with that set up. My points were crude compared to the ones you make but very effective. In Wyoming points both steel and stone have to be one inch wide and I think they should not have bases that point back as that keeps the arrow from coming back out (my ethics)! My points now weigh the same and are fairly short as longer points break more easily on impact and wind plane more. I really like bugling elk and recommend you learn to cow call as that can be more effective than a bugle. Hawk Huston killed a lot of elk with his set up and claimed he believed elk go up in the morning and down in the evening. Also if you can possibly stop by for a night on your way to Idaho I can give you some help with the calls and would love to have you and your friends for some show and tell! Joe
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What a great gesture Joe! I personally was looking forward to seeing you respond to this post.
Patrick
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Scott I think the number one thing here is how you want it to go down. I go through the same mental struggle every summer before archery deer season starts. Just how primitive do I want to hunt? How far do I want to go? My usual answer is: I love wooden bows and that's good enough for me no matter what shafting or head I carry along with me.
I think arrow weight is irrelevant and over-touted. If your around 9-12 gpp, you are good to go anywhere in our great country.
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Thank you, Joe for taking the time to respond to my post. I appreciate the perspective gleaned from your years of hunting and hope to benefit from all of y'alls opinions! I have been shooting the heavy arrows (760 gr) for a couple months, but I'm leaning more toward the 560 gr arrows for their enhanced performance. Even though they are lighter they shoot flatter, have smaller diameter, and still fly cleanly from this bow so I believe they will penetrate just as well with a sharp hunting point. Also, you have talked me into using my stone points (wasn't a hard sell) my biggest concern being general fragility during transport. What quiver do you use? I will have a day pack on my back so a back quiver is not ideal.
Joe, I would love to stop by for the night, but it doesn't look like my route will go your way. If something changes I'll let ya know.
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I believe you've nailed it, Chris. Whatever limitation I put on myself is the level to which I will perform. I believe I drawn my line, now just need to train for it and practice self discipline.
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Something tells me you will do just fine my friend ;)
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I wish the best of luck to you Scott. Put the arrow where it needs you go, your points will handle the task.
And don't forget to give us a good story when you get home.
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Scott: Are your tags for antlered or cows? The reason I ask is I hunt cows completely different than bulls. Different strategy. Where in Idaho do you have your tags? When I had an outfitters license I had a back quiver that I made for horse back riding as it was always a long ways back in the mountains. I used that same quiver when I hunted coastal elk in Oregon and Washington because it kept the feathers dry and was a very quick way to get an arrow out and knocked. Someone came up with Cat Quiver design which works much the same way. Those quivers did not always survive the rodeos. I tried to make one for the raffle and it turned out way to heavy and big. I never had a problem with breaking a point except when shooting. Please don't disregard the cow calls. A lost or distressed calf call can bring in cows and a good "here I am" cow call can work wonders on bulls. There are three different bulls when it comes to calling. A herd bull and he has all the eyes of his cows for help and he will not come any distance from them. Young bulls want some action but if you sound to big they will retreat so you have to go to them. The third bull is the one you can call in as he is generally a bigger bull that has no cows and is willing to accept a challenge. He will often circle to get the wind, but will take chances if you don't over call him! A good pair of field glasses is necessary. We had a small herd of 20 or so cows head up country yesterday across the hills from the house. They are beautiful this time of year. Good Luck Joe
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Something tells me you will do just fine my friend ;)
+1, for sure!
Patrick
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Wolf Watcher,
I am wondering what type or brand of calls you use for the bulls? I think Scott, myself and others will benefit from your experience.
We added a cow elk "Heads up" decoy to our bag of tricks last year and I truly believe it brought in the young 5x4 that my buddy took at 12 yards. We were 50 yards apart and he was cow calling and flashing the decoy. I was young bull calling and it came by me and to my buddy as I said. Elk hunting is the greatest hunting I know but I also realize you can never stop learning. I like a diaphragm call and a Primos Make a the bull crazy cow call. I keep a Hoochie Mama tied on my belt and will make low toned calf calls when going through dark timber. All my bull calls are with diaphragm and a piece of plastic pool tubing wrapped in camo tape. We hunt from Vail north to Steamboat Springs if you know of any areas worth looking at.
Thanks
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Years ago when I was going to college in Colorado we used to hunt out of Rifle. Was pretty good for elk and big mule deer bucks. I hear its been fairly used up! In the late 40s and early 50s we used to go to Yellowstone in Sept. for a week or so to fish and watch the elk during the rut. It was a fantastic learning experience. I had a bugle made out of a piece of cane. To this day I would rather call a big bull in close than shoot him. Bugling bulls is my elk hunting joy. I can get three cow tags each year, but usually take a big calf as that is more than enough to feed us. I have been going to a camp as an instructor with the Worland Game and Fish Wardens for some years now. At one of those camps we were given a "POWER BUGLE" made by Elk Inc. out of Gardner Montana. It is the best one I have found as it can generate several tones and volumes. As far as cow calls go, I have a very small and simple one called Carlton's Calls. It is about 2" long and 5/8" around. It has a plastic reed with a movable round rubber band over the reed that can be adjusted to change the sounds. It fits in my pocket or in the palm of my glove and I can make all the calls with it. I quit carrying my Hoochie Momma as I never learned to make consistent calls with it. If I was asked to give anyone advise about bugling and cow calling I would say be very judicious and do not over call. A bugle made out of a piece of rubber garden hose can be just as effective as the high dollar ones in the hands of an experienced caller. By the way, Mike "Hawk" Huston bugles and cow calls without a bugle and is very good at it. I also rate shooting a bull moose with primitive equipment as good as it gets for me. Joe
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Check the testing and findings of Dr.Ashby Scott for penetration concerns.Type in toughhead arrow heads.
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Wow, Joe a plethora of knowledge and wisdom being given here. I have been reading about and studying this animal for years, but have very little experience in close contact with them. The little tidbits about elk traveling up in the morning and down in the evening, bull characteristics, and calling techniques are invaluable to someone just trying to get into this game.
Our plan is to get either sex tags and hunt North of Mountain Home. My calling will be restricted to cow calling and let Tell do the bugling. Idaho allows us to use our Elk tags for any of 4 different game animals so there is a chance black bear might also be on the menu. Spot and stalk is about the only way I'm interested in bear hunting and this seems like a real possibility in that area.
Ed, I have studied Mr Ashbys findings as well as many others test based opinions on the subject and believe they all have some merit. Moreover, I have put down some notes of my own practical application and try to reconcile my findings with what others are seeing. In the end, it must be sharp, it must be pointy, and you must hit what ur aimin at.
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Scott: I have worked on pipelines thru the area around MT. Home but only know the area south of town. That area is famous for Bruno jasper and it makes some fantastic points and blades. I just got the results of the tag drawings and was very surprised to get a bull elk tag and an antelope tag right here on the ranch. I have never been able to harvest an antelope with my bow although I have scared a lot of them. A feather fletched arrow makes a lot of noise out on the prairie and that is all they need to be able to turn and out run a slow moving arrow!
I can promise you that your points will be perfect. Its easy to try shots that are not safe kill shots. Because of the size of these animals it is paramount to pick a target to zero in on. Think small, aim small. This is also a problem with black bears as it is hard to judge exactly where to aim. Good Luck! Joe
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I will definitely be keeping my eye out for knappable rock, but haven't heard about any in our area. It would certainly make the trip that much more memorable. Congrats on drawing a bull tag and antelope tag. I pray you reach your goals, my friend!
Aiming small is exactly what I'm doing now. I have been practicing with a fever and hope to be shooting better than at any point in my life. Time is winding down and the details are starting to stand out. I have no expectations of a super hunt or trophy animals, but pray the Good Father will lead us and keep us safe. Being in good company standing on a mountian with the free world around us will fill my soul and keep me yearning for the high country. Everything else is bonus.
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Did'nt you and Iowabo go on an elk hunt here awhile back?
I think Dvshunter is gonna be going this fall too.
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Wish you the best of luck on your trip Scott.I have friends here that go every year.All have eventually gotten an elk or two.Chasing bugling elk in the mountains is like nothing else.
I mentioned Dr. Ashby for reasons that with him he did all the testing with his own money and time.Testing on some things I don't even understand.No sponsorship,no opinionated bias and no theories.No thoughts of getting rich or perks from it.Just a need to find truth.With long and recurve bows.Even at 50 pounds.The company toughhead broadheads approached him to quote his findings.Personally I don't need to look farther.
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Yessir, John and I made a trip to CO a couple years ago and saw some beautiful country. We packed in on horses and were left to setup up our own camp and find our own animals. As it were we were still within walking distance of the road and had people walking through the area almost everyday. I ended up seeing 3 elk and had a great time. But I didn't learn much about elk hunting.
This time may have a different ending.
I'm sure Toughhead makes a fine hunting point.
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Scott: One last thing and then I will say no more. Here and in Idaho the wolves have really had an influence on elk behavior. The elk that used to live in the Park and Thourofare are now down in the foothills and desert country! In the fall the pups are learning to hunt so a lot more chasing and harassing takes place. Wolves hunt mostly at night so you may never see them. Reading any scat you find can help you understand what is going on with the elk. Idaho does allow some wolf hunting. I would recommend you check into that. They can travel 50 miles in a night so during the fall they can cover a lot of country if there is no other pack to contend with. They will respond to calling if you know how. If the country you are hunting in has sage brush it is an excellent local scent cover. Hawk used to wipe it all over himself and even tied on some braches when making a stalk. Joe
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man Scott, i'm gettin fired up just readin this post. wish ya the best of luck buddy.
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Scott,
I'm sure you know....but it's all about "shot placement" as much as it is equipment. Years ago penetration wasn't as big a deal as it is today.... A heart and lung shot placement that the arrow didn't leave the cavity did a lot of damage as the critter was running away. I've talk to a lot of old trad archer hunters that had the same thoughts....again "shot placement" and you'll do fine..
DBar
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Joe, I would not hesitate to drop the string on a wolf, but that's gonna be the last thing I expect to see. I do like the sage brush idea, that's the same thing I do with golden rod and walnuts around here.
Thanks Mike!
Lotsa truth in that Bill. That's purty much where my minds at right now also.
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And by the way Joe, I see no need for you to quit talking. Any wisdom or anecdotes you have to share are bein gobbled up quick as they're writ. That goes for the rest of the experienced elk hunters out there as well! Just keep on a feedin us with your stories and hopefully we'll pick up something useful.
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This is a list I have put together over a few years....some I no longer use and a few new items not listed but it is a good list to remind me of all that is needed. You will see a note about calling your Visa if you use one. First year out they blocked mine after a couple purchases because it was out west and not in m normal use area. Call them and let them know, it will save a headache.
If you have any questions about an item just ask...
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That's a better list than I had compiled yet. Thanks Lyman.
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My recommendation for quivers is the G Fred Asbel style. The perfect hunting quiver and works well with a backpack. Good luck and good hunting have a wonderful trip.
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Use what you deer hunt with. What your use to.
Since your not using your self bow no need to use stone heads.
Not really a big deal it you kill a elk with a glass bow and a stone head. If your going to step backards. Do it the whole way.
GOOD LUCK WITH WHAT EVER YOU USE. Personally, you lik'ly don't get to go on to many elk hunts.
I'd have to take my self bow and stone. BUT I MIGHT BE A LITTLE BYEST I'VE BEEN HUNTING WITH STICKS AND STONES FOR 25 YEAR.
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.... it's all about "shot placement" ..... and you'll do fine..
DBar
Watched Scott shoot at MoJam. He's got the placement thingy down good! :)
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Thanks Mike, some days seem better than others, but as long as I keep em under 20 I should be fine.
Crooked - I reckon you get misunderstood a lot, but I hear what you're sayin. You and I have a lot in common and I have gone back and forth on the whole issue a dozen times in my head. At the end of the day I want to kill an elk. The biggest one I can find. And I want to kill him with hand made gear. None of my huntin setup was bought. It was all handmade either by me or some awful dadgum close friends of mine. That makes it special and that makes it worthy of this trip. Whether I shoot a fiberglass bow and stone points, or selfbow and trade points all of them will have meaning. If I can sink my God given ivories into backstraps and cherish the hunt in the process I'll call it a win.
Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this post. I appreciate your feedback and hopefully I can use the collective wisdom to make this trip memorable. Who knows, maybe there's a story in it.
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Scott, I know that you are probably in great shooting shape and you have gone over gear many times, how about your physical shape, the mountains have a way of truly kicking butt, maybe not the first day but an accumulative effect, I always thought that I would start to get stronger after a few days in the mountains but actually just plain wore down. I always would lose about 15 lbs on a 10 to 14 day hunt and I wasn't packing a lot of extra to begin with, Make sure your in shape the mountains are not to forgiving. Very important to stay hydrated. I killed 2 elk in 10 yrs and should have killed more but it's hard to keep things together when adrenalin is running overtime, I went 10 yrs in a row an never had a bad trip ever, Love the mountains and all that goes with them, Your going to have a great time. Bob
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Bob, you are dead on, what many don't realize is the need to be in great shape but also the mental conditioning. After a 24+ hour drive, stocking water and groceries, setting up camp and getting in bed early enough to get up at 4 AM for a full days hunt. Your entire routine is changed for the next 2-3 weeks. Sleep,food and physical exercise has completely changed. After preparing for months for a great hunt you can totally shut down in 3 days just due to "mental" and "physical" exhaustion. We hunt hard and we hunt serious when we go but you MUST find time to take a break and enjoy a fire with friends or you will burn out fast. One year after a week I had an anxiety attack and even though I was surrounded by big mountains I felt like I was in a closet. Got a good nights sleep and rested the next morning due to heavy rains but got the mental game going again. As they say, slow down and smell the roses. Enjoy the hunt and you will have a fantastic trip and hopefully the rewards of elk venison.
I will add that we hunt entirely DIY on public lands so no outfitters cooking and preparing all the details for you. That may make a big difference if you can afford the extras.
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Good points guys.
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the wood bow should go,, you are at no disadvantage shooting a wood bow,,
if you want to shoot fiberglass ok, but it won't be as fun :)
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I got a good look at Scotts bow at MoJam. If I ever seen a fg bow that deserves to be hunted with its that one. I think it is kinda a special bow to him.
But to give you a little bit of a hard time Scott. A self bow might have a bit more mojo!
I just hope you have an amazing experience and remember, there is more to the hunt than the weapon of choice.
Patrick