Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => HowTo's and Build-a-longs => Topic started by: Jesse on February 27, 2008, 09:43:39 pm
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This is not meant as a how to just for the record its just so you can see how I am doing it and give your input.
Ok this is a bamboo backed ipe reflex deflex bow. I got the bamboo and the ipe from Rich Saffold and it is some nice stuff. I got my idea for the form from rudderbows.
The bow will be 68" ntn with an 8 inch glued on riser. I am starting out at 1/14 wide and straight tapper to 1/2 tips. I will reduce this latter to get the mass down if it seems stable enough. Sounds reasonable to me.
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I start with the bamboo. Its pretty thick so I will reduce it by width and thickness.
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/WIbowyer/P1010966.jpg)
First I mark center with a chalk line and trce it in pencil
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/WIbowyer/P1010969.jpg)Then I mark center
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/WIbowyer/P1010971.jpg)
Now I mark the tips at 3/4 and the center to 1 3/8 I do this because I think its easier to sand if its partially tapered. I dont cut to exact shape because after glue up it might not be exactly straight
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/WIbowyer/P1010973.jpg)
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After marking it out I cut it out on the bandsaw. I dont have a picture but I also mark a line on the side of the bamboo by clamping it to something straight and carefully marking it from center to tips> I try to give it a little taper also.
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/WIbowyer/P1010975.jpg)
Then I sand it down to the line on my belt sander. Sorry no pic of that.
Next I mark out the ipe 4" Both sides of center. for the handle
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/WIbowyer/P1010976.jpg)
Next I lay out the thickness taper. 1/2' at the fades to 3/16" tips
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/WIbowyer/P1010977.jpg)
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/WIbowyer/P1010978.jpg)
Then I clamp one limb at a time to my level and clamp on a straight edge to mark it
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/WIbowyer/P1010979.jpg)
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After cutting it out I tape the back of the boo and the belly of the ipe so they wont get glue on them. Then I rough up the surfaces to be glued by dragging the length of them across a jigsaw blade clamped in a vice. Then I use resorcinol glue and then wrap it in plastic and then rubber straps and then clamp it in the form.
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/WIbowyer/P1010985.jpg)
I got this idea from rudderbows to use a 2/4 cut in a curve to help shape the limb. It gives a much nicer looking bend than before I started using this
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/WIbowyer/P1010986.jpg)
Here it is out of the form
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/WIbowyer/P1010988.jpg)
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/WIbowyer/P1010989.jpg)
Next I mark the taper on the ipe first a centerline to make sure it did not shift a little while I was al stressed out glueing ;D
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/WIbowyer/P1010992.jpg)
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Looks like it moved a little or the ipe was not straight. notice the sides are not even. Thats ok because the bamboo is plenty wide yet. Next I cut close to the lines and then sand. Now I will make the riser. I used some scraps of hickory osage and ipe. I think it will give it some nice color. I ran out of resorcinol so I will use tb3 for the riser. I got it clamped and her it is before I cut the shape. This is all the progress I have made. I am all of the sudden very bussy at work so this project will slow down. Have patience ;D
Thanks for looking Jesse
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/WIbowyer/P1010995.jpg)
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/WIbowyer/P1010997.jpg)
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/WIbowyer/P1010998.jpg)
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/WIbowyer/P1010999.jpg)
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I'm following this very closely. Thank you!
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Excellent build along. Thanks for sharing.
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I've had some ideas in the back of my mind for one of those (of course I don't have any ipe) but your givin me new ideas too. Interesting, thanks..
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this is going to be a nice bow! ...- and i already know what the riser will look like... ;D ;D ;D
frank
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Looking good jesse, is this my new bow for Pappy's ;)
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I like the idea of using that curve to clamp the limb down, I will adpt that into my r/d's. Steve
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uh oh Ive got the pros watching now I better make it good :D
Thanks for watching I figured someone can give me some pointers
I will work on it more and post pics this weekend. Shop vac just broke so its about to get dusty :o
Dana --- :D no but you can shoot it all you want if I still have it by then :D Jesse
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Jesse
Did you put the reflex - deflex in the ipe before you glued the boo on ? Or did you just clamp it to a form and it holds this shape?
wvflintknapper
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Jesse
Did you put the reflex - deflex in the ipe before you glued the boo on ? Or did you just clamp it to a form and it holds this shape?
wvflintknapper
I just put the two together flat and clamp it to shape before the glue starts to set. It holds the shape fine. I think one key to it is getting the pieces flexible before gluing. The ipe feels like a finished 40# bow before gluing and now its pretty stiff. Some reflex is lost right when you take the clamps off it pops up a little. Also during tillering I expect to loose more. Jesse
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Well I got a little further today. I got it sanded down to the lines using this hand held belt sander clamped to a post with the trigger locked. It works pretty good for doing the sides. For the belly I clamp it to the table where the snow is missing. :D Maybe I should invest in a better setup but this works for now ;D
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/WIbowyer/P1020002.jpg)
Next I scrape the rind off with a scraper until the shine is off and it looks kind of whitish.
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/WIbowyer/P1020003.jpg)
Then I use the orbital sander on slow speed with 320 grit to get the rest of the rind off down to the nice yellow color making sure not to go any further than just getting the color. you can see where it has been sanded.
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/WIbowyer/P1020007.jpg)
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I like that already, Nice tools. :'(
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Thanks PK. You want a bandsaw dont you? ;D I know its not very primitive to use power tools but this bow is not exactly the most primitive either. I made some bows with all steel hand tools and I gotta tip my hat to the guys that use stone tools. :o Its gotta be rewarding though. Jesse
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Hey Jesse - why do you scrape the rind off (shine)- does everyone go through this process with Boo - just wonderin ?
Paul
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Bent rig. I dont think you have to scrape it off. I do it for looks because it is impossible to stain boo with the rind on. Also sometimes the outer surface has imperfections that you can scrape right off so why not. I never made one with the rind on so maybe someone else will chime in and give you better advice. Jesse
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Well I got a little farther. I cut out the fades and sanded off the glue. That looks better :o I like the color a lot.
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/WIbowyer/P1020019.jpg)
I put it up on the board before any tillering is started so I could make a note of its original reflex and deflex. I know a lot of the reflex will come out but this way we can compare it to the finished bow and see just how much.
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/WIbowyer/P1020020.jpg)
Next I glued on some overlays of African blackwood. Itsmy first time putting them on at an angle. Looks weird right now I'll have to work on these ???
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/WIbowyer/P1020021.jpg)
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/WIbowyer/P1020022.jpg)
Oh I also changed my screen name if you didnt notice. Jesse
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Jesse, Those tips are at the same angle I use. Especially on skinny elbs where stability might be an issue it actually gets the back of the string inside the back of the bow.
1 1/4" isn't too wide on a bow this long for starters either. Its always much easier to take it off later than vice versa...
I'm glad you are doing this build-a-long, actually its good for me to see someone else do one since everyone has a good idea or two, and you have shown a couple that I like seeing. That curved block is a great idea..
Don't worry or be surprised if the limbs take on more reflex when tillering since it will come out.
I pm'd you about the strings, and I'm glad you did, I didn't even realize this section was here! Fast flight, and Spectra are all I have been using the past few years. 12-14 strands is the norm, and I use 10-8 on my personal bows, and I fatten the serving if I need to..I also use and endless style with very little twists since it gives a bit more speed.
Rich
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Thanks Rich I asked the same question about fast flight to Badger I know you both use it a lot. I think I will give it a try if this thing turns out. Jesse
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Jesse, that bow is comming out great, it looks just like mine, I started using the block of wood you posted with the curve on it per your build along, I like it better than my old way of just pulling them down. When do we see a full draw pic? Steve
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Jesse, you may not loose any reflex, I often gain reflex if I leave the belly a bit thick in the glue up, great profile on that bow, it should be real stable, fast and an excellent shooter. Steve
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jesse! - that is a really nice blank you build there!!!
looking foreward!
frank
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awesome build along. ive tried a dozen glue ups and have had all but 2 blow up in my face or twist or badglue lines, etc. this post gave me some great ideas, peace
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Well thanks for the encouragement guys its good to hear. I really hope it turns out good. Right now its just a pretty piece of wood. Later it will either be a bow, a toy, or firewood :D. I cut it kinda close on my measurements because the last one I did I was scraping forever just to get it to start bending. This one I cut just over finished dimensions but it seems plenty stiff yet. I am a little worried about the riser because I had to tork the clamps hard to get it flat. I did a dry run but must have mixed up the pieces at glue up. Looks to be good and I shouldn't have any bend there. Cross my fingers
Steve ---Full draw is a ways off I don't have string grooves yet :D Im glad you and Jamie got something out of this. That makes it worth while even if it fails. Which I hope it doesn't ;D Jesse
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I got a little further now but not much :). I filed the string grooves and got the overlays looking a little better.
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/WIbowyer/P1020028.jpg)
Next I started tillering with a long string and then tried going to a very low brace. I dont like the low brace with this much reflex. It seems too easy for the bow to flip around if you are not careful. Here it is pulling about 30# but if you look at the tips its not even halfway to brace height. Knowing when to brace is the trickiest part for me. I have tried bracing too soon and broken one and I have braced to late and couldn't reach target weight. How do you guys do it?
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/WIbowyer/P1020026.jpg)
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Jesse, I'm floor tillering the bow until I can string it. I also look down at the lower bow limb when I am imitating stringing it, and see how its moving this way as well. I know you can push pull string a 65# bow and probably have another one, even if its glass around to give you an idea of what it feels like. The limbs still must be moving outside the grip the same as with a straight limbed bow, and these limbs are going to be close to straight when you string it.
If using the long string, make it as short as possible so you don't pull the tips out more than the inner limbs, this is why I teach folks to get real good at floor tillering this level of bow. You don't want to spend too much time putting it back on the rack and pulling on it when its going to look different when braced possibly losing unnecessary poundage.
It is different and can be a bit intimidating initially, but if you get a hands on feel for these limbs it's going to help a lot. You will feel when you are close to stringing it as they will become very "lively" for lack of a better description. These bows don't settle much in weight so it should look and feel like a finished 65# bow when you first string it.
As I look at the pic, remove belly shavings f from the handle out..I like using the thicker bamboo like you did as well.
Rich-It's looking real good at this point
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Looking good Jesse can't wait to shoot it :) You get your schedule cleared for the Classic???
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Thanks for the info Rich. I trust your method but I never tested ability to floor tiller all the way to brace height. I guess I could give it a try. Nothing ventured nothing gained right?
Dana--- I just got of the phone with the boss and I got the official GO AHEAD IF YOU MUST! :D
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Yes, Jesse, just like you are stringing it push pull style. This also lets you know if the limbs are getting unstable. If they are, you have a firm grip to make sure it doesn't twist too much. It's why I either string my bows this way, or with a stringer. I'm not a fan of step through methods since I have seen limbs twisted, and overloaded.
You needed more belly wood removed, and after this if it still feels unstable check the limb taper to make sure it keeps tapering and there are no straight sections, and the same applies with limb thickness it has to be a gradual smooth taper. The other check I do is to make sure no limb section is getting closer to square than others, and on these longer bows like yours there is more room for this to happen especially where the limbs reflex on the outer limbs.
Part of why I floor tiller these is to feel how the limbs are responding, and when you look down the limbs like this every flaw in the tiller is visually magnified, and its easier to stop before overstraining the limb and fix it because in your hands you can feel if its starting to stack, and also see this. As they say "tiller is everything", and on these bows its "Really everything" because it is more critical. It's like the car analogy, now you are working on a lamborghini ;D
Rich
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Well I got a medium brace on it now and its looking ok. Nothing major is jumping out at me yet.
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/WIbowyer/P1020029.jpg)
I pulled it back a little and it looks like the left limb needs a little work near the handle to match the right and then I will go from there. I plan to make the left limb the top because of a node I dont want in the grip.
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/WIbowyer/P1020030.jpg)
The string alignment looks great so far
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/WIbowyer/P1020031.jpg)
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I agree, the left side a bit. Just down from your fingers in the pic. where the wood changes shade, the limb looks a touch wide right there, a little more on your forefinger side ;). but maybe I'm seeing something too.
Rich
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Rich are you referring to the string tracking? I am looking at the bow and the timber hitch in the pic is pulled a little to the left of center. I just moved it to center and the string looks better. Jesse
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Jesse she's lookin good can't wait to try her out ;D
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Thanks Dana I hope it keeps going good I am happy its braced. now I have to get both limbs even and then see how much I need to drop the weight if any. I originally thought to make it 65# but thats a bit over kill for deer hunting for me. I will be happy with 55--60# but Im not that picky about draw weight yet. This one might come out light I dont know yet. Its pulling about 40#@ 14" right now :)
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I dont think you will have a problem making weight....unles you have a 22 inch Draw.............. ::) ::)
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Yeh I got plenty left if I dont put a hinge somewhere :D
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Jesse, The limb just looked a touch wide down from your forefinger, but I tend to get really picky about my outlines when I get the bow strung. Your string track looks fine..
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Well I have bben struggling a little with some lateral stability problem but it seems to be all better for now. It started wanting to go sideways a little so I removed wood from the opposite side to bring it back in line. It is very sensitive to the lightest wood removal. Here it is pulling 42#@18" Also is a pic taken immediately after unbracing. I moved it over on the tree to simulate where I will grip it. Left is top limb. Any input or advice is welcome. Jesse
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/WIbowyer/P1020038.jpg)
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/WIbowyer/P1020039.jpg)
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That's really commin along Jesse! Can't wait to see the end product - lookin good!
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Jesse, the bow is looking great. Ill bet it is a screamer. Justin
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Thanks Guys Im pretty happy with it so far. I have made a few of these bows now but each was a little different and this one I was a little more aggressive with the design. It has a little more reflex and a little narrower than others I've made but its also pretty long. It seems like it will be fast. Well actually if I tiller it right it will be fast. I am debating whether the outer limbs should retain a little reflex or come out straight. It looks to me like they are sharing the load well right now comparing pics. The lateral stability thing had me a little worried and I chased it for a while to get it right. Hope it doesn't show up again latter in the process :) Jesse
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Jesse, With a deep handle like yours it adds those inches to the drawlength if your 29" draw. This plays into the final profile and how its going to look at full draw as well. If the limbs sit straight when finished you effectively have a reflexed design do to the height of the grip. Don't worry if they sit back a hair since your effective draw looks like it going to be about 32".
At full draw you may have a subtle curve at the tips, and I think you will be removing bit on the inner to mid limbs. You don't want the tips moving too much especially compared to what straight longbows do at this length.
By just removing inner limb belly wood your lateral stability should increase.
42#@18" is a good number..and the tiller is looking real good!
Rich
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Rich my draw length is 27 to 28" Im not sure what you mean by my effective draw is 32" Are you saying because of the size of my handle? please specify. I think what you are saying is that if I had a shallower handle the profile of the bow would be less stressed than it will be with my current size? I will need a longer draw to maintain my same form if I have a big handle and a shorter draw with a shallow handle. If thats what you are saying I understand that ;D I plan on shaping the handle to a dished locater grip so the depth will change but its hard to do it now because of the tiller tree. Jesse
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Jesse, for some reason thought you mentioned you had a 29" draw length, and so your grip looked like a 3" height. Thats where I got 32", but now after what you mentioned are even closer to final tiller. You will also have a little reflex when shot in..just speculating.. ;)
Rich
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Jesse with your draw length I get to shoot your bow but you can't shoot mine as I only pull 26" ;D
I will let ya shoot bob though he can take it, I know yer wonder who bob is??? I will show ya when I pick ya up.
BTW the bow is looking great :)
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Hey thats not fair I dont want to get stuck with bob :D I'll just bend my elbow. Trust me I wont break it >:D
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bob don't look to pretty but shoots straight ;) :D
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Well here is a picture of it at full brace of 6 1/2" and also a pic of a full draw pulling 63# @ 27" I still have to final sand it. Well it looks in the pic like its not bending a lot in the fades but I saw good movement there on the tree so I dont want to mess with it unless you pros think it necessary. It is a real easy draw and if I didnt know my scale was accurate I would think it was less weight. I had it out shooting to make sure nothing was going to change and even with my 20 strand tillering string and bulky tips it shoots a fast arrow. I tillered the top limb to 8th" pos and it seems to balance nice in the draw. Now I have to shape the handle, cut in the shelf , shape the tips, and stain and finish.
Let me know what you think of the tiller. @ 63# I have a little room to tweak it. Right now mass weight is at 26 oz. Badger had it figured for 24 oz I still need to shape the handle but I dont think I will make 24 because I didnt do to much side tillering. I did do some though ;D
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/WIbowyer/P1020042.jpg)
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/WIbowyer/P1020048.jpg)
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Dang that fresh water barracuda had a serious eating problem! ;D Nice fish jesse I've always wanted to catch one of those.
You will get those last couple of ounces, or be close enough that it wont matter. It looks real good to me, and I'd love to see an unbraced pic after 50 shots or so. Don't mess with the fades either ;)
What are the arrows are you shooting from it?
Please don't put a b-50 string on it, unless its all you got for the time being. My choice for both silence and speed on these bows is a 12-14 strand Spectra endless style with around only 12 twists..
Flemmish will work, but is a heavier string, and I when I pluck both of them in front of a TV screen the flemish tends to keep oscillating for longer, and will hit my wrist when an endless won't..Little things I know. But a Lamborghini won't go very fast on retreads either :o
Rich-
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Thanks Rich. I will post an unbraced pic tomorrow. The arrows I have right now are 55#--60# spine but are a little long so I can cut them to get a stiffer spine I hope. Right now they seem to week. My tiller string is ff and I think it is forcing a stiffer spine arrow due to its low stretch? the string I will make for this beast will be ff padded in the loops with a little b 50 just at the loops for less abrasion. This is my first time using ff and I can tell a difference. Your right it doesn't slap your arm but what I really love is when you put the loop on the bow it doesn't stretch out right away it just stays :) With the high tension at brace height thats a big deal. :o my b50 strings stretch so much I have a harder time bracing. By the way you've been a big help so far Rich thanks a lot for taking the time. Jesse
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Looks good Jesse, looks like ya won't have to borrow bob for Tennessee after all ;) ;D
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You asked for it so here it is. First is a pic of the unbraced bow before any tillering and another pic of it after being tillered and shot in. Looks like it took some set but nothing crazy. each hole in the board is 1" apart. Do you guys consider this a normal amount of set? I do but I dont see too many side by side before and after pics without heat treating.
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/WIbowyer/P1020020.jpg)
(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/WIbowyer/P1020050.jpg)
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Thats terrible Jesse better give to me you don't want to be seen with that at Pappy's ;)
Looks pretty damn good to me of course I know nothing about laminated bows.
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Thanks Dana if its still alive then you can play with it. ;D I was looking at these pics and trying to see if I can judge which part was working the most based on where on the limbs it took set. My thinking is that it took about 1" set. 3/4 of that was in the inner limb and the tips are 1" down so that must be the other 1/4" since the outer reflexed limbs are shorter it seems like that is about even distribution. Does this make sense or am I thinking about it wrong ??? Jesse
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Quit thinkin and just shoot it ;D Its a fine weabon Jesse
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Your right Dana. gotta go its a nice day out there :D
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Jesse, At this point I'm usually shooting the bow a bit, then unstring it and see how symmetrical the limbs are. Sometimes I adjust it using the scraper I keep in my back pocket, and sometimes I just keep shooting it..How it feels and shoots matters most of all.
Looks great! And do be shy about using arrows a little heavier than 10 gr. per #
Rich
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Rich thanks I will do that. Right now Im shaping the handle and nocks then I will shoot it a bunch more and adjust with my scraper. I almost hate to admit this but I didnt tiller it with a scraper or any other steel tool :'( I know its not very primitive but Im already using bandsaws glue ect so for this one I tried tillering the whole thing with my orbital sander. Worked great and it was pretty fun too I could feel a lot of control. I would not recommend this method to someone unless you are good with a sander because if you stop on one spot you could ruin the bow in 2 seconds ;D I used a slow speed and 150 grit to finish up tillering. I will use a scraper to fine tune it while shooting.
Jesse
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Sacreligous Jesse how dare you use power tools to tiller :o :o :o
Now i'm not sure I'm gonna let you shoot bob, I think he might be offended ;)
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Jesse, ;DI love it..I also use my bench sander to the point where bows are very close to being strung, I clean up the marks and do subtle adjustments with a scraper, or sandpaper.
Rich-
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yeh I had to come clean :D I used a power tool to tiller and I am ashamed :D It did work good though. I might have to go to rehab or something :D
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Well I had some difficulty doing the finish but it came out nice.Here is some pics of the handle before I do the leather grip and the tips. Thanks for looking :)
Handle before the grip ipe,hickory,osage(http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/WIbowyer/P1020055.jpg)
Tip African blackwood (http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u169/WIbowyer/P1020069.jpg)
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thats looking sweet,but why would you want to cover that beautiful handle up? ???
tim
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thats looking sweet,but why would you want to cover that beautiful handle up? ???
tim
Thanks I was kind of debating that myself :D I like the feel of a leather grip but it does look nice bare also. Maybe I will put on the leather with no glue and see whats better before gluing it down. At a minimum I have to put something on the rest to quiet the draw.