Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: DuBois on August 18, 2016, 05:12:11 pm
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Bottom page 5 for update.
I saw a cool bow in this little branch a couple of years ago and got it worked to a floor tillered profile that I corrected some with steam in the middle and dry toward the tips.
1" diameter
9" natural levers, 34" working with bendy handle.
52" total length.
Going to sinew with bison leg.
It is still real stiff. 1/2" thick just before levers and 3/4" at handle.
Would you decrown it just a little?
Also, do you think the siyahs are too long? (Not planning to have string rest on bow at brace)
Before and after pics.
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I have no idea. But im realy loving what ya got so far. Cant wait to see what ya end up with.
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That's a knarly piece of wood man! Can't wait to see what you coax out of it!
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I think your siyahs are your ace in the hole.Keep em long.I'll guess 30 to 35 pounds of draw weight is what you'll get.Going for 28"????
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What are you doing, a Manchu bendy bow? :P (or maybe more like a Hunnish, Han, something)
Really cool, want to see how this turns out
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Cool looking profile, that stick just wanted to be a bow, glad you found it. If you're going to sinew I think you could decrown, but I don't know if you would want to or not. I seem to remember a thread about sinew on the top of the crown doing all of the work, versus the sinew on the edges. Either way it will be sweet, nice work.
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Decrown it and recrown it with sinew.Clamp the tips of the siyahs to the straight edge of a 2X4 instead of a string giving it reflex.To avoid twisting while sinew cures.Being only an inch wide stability might be a problem.Maybe not.Giving it a little more reflex than what it looks like now in deflex.After curing tiller it like any other bow.For even more poundage horn could be used too on the belly.Can you see it?????.....lol.
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That branch wanted to be a manchu or a ming bow when it grew up! I'm quivering with antici..............
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pation
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Thanks fellas,
I decrowned it with a scraper and got it real even to just before the levers. Gonna run sinew to just to about an inch onto the siyahs and wrap there.
It bends nicely to near brace height against my chest now.
Still considering if I should try to have the string rest at base of siyahs and not sure if it would mean adding more reflex to do it.
I think I'm gonna have to try to brace it to find out :-\ ;D
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Decrown it and recrown it with sinew.Clamp the tips of the siyahs to the straight edge of a 2X4 instead of a string giving it reflex.To avoid twisting while sinew cures.Being only an inch wide stability might be a problem.Maybe not.Giving it a little more reflex than what it looks like now in deflex.After curing tiller it like any other bow.For even more poundage horn could be used too on the belly.Can you see it?????.....lol.
Yes!! I thought the same thing about horn and I can see it.
Thanks for the tip on the board to stop the twisting. Will do this for sure.
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Put a heavy load of bison back sinew on after de-crowning flat with a scraper and pulling it into reflex. Was considering putting horn on the belly but I don't think it would really need it even if I could do it with the sinew on already...but then again I still might >:D
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Lookin good
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Nice profile it will defently be unique !
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Quite a challenge!
I fear that you'll get alignment issues, at the very least, or just twisting limbs when you brace the stave. I also guess the brace height will need to be rather high, 7-8" at least. So I'm afraid you'll lose most of the advantage of the reflexed levers.
J
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Looking good, definitely have earned an 'A' for patience and perseverance!
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Joachim-yeah I have been dwelling on how that is gonna work out some and also if I will need to cut off much of the levers to fix it.
I can adjust a little by bending levers if needed since the sinew stops just past the angle.
Thanks Peacebow and SB
Hrothgar, You know how it is when get a piece of wood that just speaks out to you, even when it may not be the most likely candidate.
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Hey Marco,
looks sweet. I think if you could have looked at some Magyar bows that might have given some
help in the form of the bow. If the handle had some d flex. But non the less, a great project.
I would string it slowly when it's time.
Dog
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very intrestingI have been looking for lilac
how do you season the wood? - the little I found has been very difficult to dry
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very intrestingI have been looking for lilac
how do you season the wood? - the little I found has been very difficult to dry
I assume i can hop in and give you an answer if DuBois dont mind...
I have seasoned quite many syringa vulgaris staves, what i think is the most dense specie of lilacs, and what i have found out best was: Leave bark on, and rough out the stave to near bow dimensions. You need to be cautious about the stave thickness, under 1-1 1/3" thick lilac is safe at ~70% air moisture. If you leave the bark on and rough out the most part of thickness, you dont get any checks. I've noticed that leaving the bark on the back also keep the stave more straight. And i never use any nonsense "sealings", glues, paints what ever. If you get away without sealings on lilac, you know you get away with about any other bow wood ;).
And dont be fooled with the stave thickness, 1" of lilac at short staves ~50" long, is a lot. I have one 51" recurve 48# @20" of syringa vulgaris, and its 3/5" thick at the handle.
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I agree with JN
I have gotten a few to make it through and I have been leaving the bark on for a few weeks and then reducing to rough dimensions with bark on and wrapping in loose trash bags or tarp in the humid garage.
This one being so little at 1" I bebarked immediately and shellaced it good and it made it in the garage rafters with only 1 tiny end check I worked around
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So how did this sinewed stave finally end up? It didn't look like it was gonna live with these long levers, but we didn't see any advances on it since quite some time.
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Funny you should ask now. I just grabbed it off the rack yesterday and am considering how long the levers should stay and plan to tiller it this next week when I have some days off and the kids at school. I will get a new pic up and was gonna ask for some advice soon.
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So here she is thus far. She's come a long way ;D Pic from each end and side.
33" of sinewed limbs with 9" siyahs. Sinew is smoothed nicely with the PatM method and holding a lot of reflex. This is gonna be a tough tiller job so open to any suggestions. I will be going with the tree and pulleys screwed up in the garage for this little mama.
I'm hoping for mid 40's and 24" I guess. What you all think?
Gotta cut it down some and not sure just how much would keep the benefit of sinew (which is thick and crowned up good), while not overdoing it on the levers and belly.
Has anyone ever had sinew separate lengthwise while tillering? Never really thought about it until getting ready to start this next week.
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Wow that's a lot of reflex. I'm excited to see how this turns out.
Kyle
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Please take this with a grain of salt cause I have no experience with this type of bow but, once you know it's bending a bit but not too much you may want to consider doing what I saw PatM doing in one of his posts a while back to get it to a low brace. First, he pushed it down on the floor, back down and let the siyahs do the work in getting the working limbs to start bending. Then it looked like he put his foot on one of the tips, kept his knee in the middle and grabbed the other tip with his hand. You get the point I hope. Perhaps he'll chime in and clarify any errors in my description.
I have made a bow from lilac and I can say it's a great bow wood. Really good in tension and compression. I would love to see this turn out a success and if anyone can do it it's you DuBois!
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Thanks for the update, DB!
I have a friend with a large growth of lilac (the stuff that gets 16' tall) that I've been itching to get into to look for worthy staves, so it's good to see what lilac can do (especially since I'm in nosage land... well, not a whole lot of trees here really... I have to find bow wood where I can!).
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I hope you're right Upstateny. And hopefully someone will give me some good tips to make the tiller process less of a beast.
Hey Kyle, Gonna get to find out soon how it goes. You doing ok these days?
Ty, it is pretty twisty stuff so if you get some watch the bark for spiraling and good luck.
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I wouldn't reduce the levers. They will give you your good string angle, they also will help by decreasing the stress later on in the draw. Right now your working limb is the same whether the levers are long or short. It's not like a recurve where more of it reduces your working limb. The only issue is getting it to brace. a brace of 6" is going to cause the tip of the working limbs to move 6 inches. The ends of the lever won't move that much so it probably won't be parallel. If you wanted the longer levers parallel you would have to brace it further. If that's what you want to do then I suppose you should cut them down. Is there a way you can have a string stabilizer at the end of the working limb? I don't know what they are called but I'll post a picture. Its the round dowl looking thing.
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Yes... good point a bridge at the base of the lever.All sorts of things to be aware of here.I'm along with joachimM that the stability with it being so narrow could be an issue too.It'll be fun.I imagine lilacs' compression capabilitys are good too.
Your at rest picture of the bow leaves it easy enough to tiller it on a saddle on a tillering tree.No need for a peg board or anything I don't think.
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True I forgot about stability. That could be a huge issue. You'll have to weigh the pros and cons of the longer levers.
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Really I kind of wish I had that sucker here to tiller.You've come a long ways already.I sure hope it pans out for ya.One thing if it throws the string off at brace it should'nt break it.You'll have to get alingment of those tips dead nuts.Keep your heat gun handy.Then if the string does stay on it's a matter of how it acts after release shooting an arrow.It should stay on if everything is in line good.With it being a bendy handle I really don't know how that will all act there.Keeping it stiffish in the handle area would be a good thing I think.Keep us posted.
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Any thoughts on laying down a thin layer of horn on the belly?
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I was so worried you had abandoned the project or it had failed. Glad to know you are still in the fight!!!
When you stop tryin' you start dyin'.
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As much as I dislike bridges,I would glue temp ones on. I think it's going to be an SOB to get the string alignment good. :D
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If enough sinew is on it should get a good bow weight I feel and retain a good reflex yet.It's got good enough length.On the tillering tree getting a good 6" past handle should tell you a lot already with a long string and the poundage it takes to get there.The way it sets I really think just a primitive stringer would get it to brace.Then it's the letting go of it to see what it does.
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As much as I dislike bridges,I would glue temp ones on. I think it's going to be an SOB to get the string alignment good. :D
Why the dislike of such a useful thing?
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I'm not sure. I think it's because, to me, they look like an add-on to fix a fault. Kinda like getting the foundation of a shed crooked and then propping it up with a 2x4. I know that's not the case but that's what I see :D
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String bridges or not, that sucker is going to flipflop over and over again. There is not enough lateral limb stiffness imo.
see hungarian horn bows: very long reflexed levers, broad limbs. Levers have lateral bone plates for extra stiffness for a good reason.
Tried such extremely long setback levers out on pvc bows some years ago, and quickly learned what not to do.
But hey, I'd like to be proven wrong :D
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So, scraped off some of each limb and still hittin 50# and only to flat profile pretty much. I know long string lies and not sure what I am really at or how hard to pull her.
Lookin at it as is, where would you remove next to get it correct once braced?
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I would make a bracing jig like Marc did on this thread. About halfway down the page
http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,18701.0.html
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You'll have to bite the bullet and just brace it with a jig as noted. Even an already worked in and tillered bow probably wouldn't behave on the long string with that profile.
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Good call on leaving the levers long, I think this is a good example of where this is going:
(http://www.manchuarchery.org/images/bowmaking/decoration.jpg)
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Yes like Pat said it's bite the bullet time pretty soon.Keep scraping and scraping till you can get the tips to brace level at 45 to 50 pounds.If your tapering is good it should arch into the form of a braced bow.Then it's just a matter if the wood belly can handle it and how stable it'll be with a string on it long enough to see if there's any adjustments to be made with tip alignment too.I wish you the best of luck.I'd love to see that bow shoot.
DC's idea because of the set back of the levers might be a good idea too.
You've come a long way already might as well keep going.These type bows take a lot more time.
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Get the handle bending a bit too and then do a wizardgoat style cork build up if it holds up.
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Ok Pat, Ill scrape handle a bit and work on a bracing jig. That is a nice set up!
Once I get it a little further I will look at bridges and make a decision fer sure.
Urufu, if it comes out in any way resembling one of those I will be more than satisfied.
Thanks folks and I'll keep you posted.
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:OK Awesome. Good luck.
Haha, I like string bridges. You could make really wide ones in a bit of a crescent shape to catch the string, or like mongol bows I can't find pictures of. Could make them smaller once you correct the bow and get it really straight and stable as can be..
Really wide string bridges on Mongol bow - (https://i.imgur.com/PKwHlZM.jpg)
(http://www.atarn.org/letters/mongolian_insert_1.jpg)
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Got her to brace with a modified version of Marcs jig (clamps and leather wrapped progressively thicker wood pieces) but I guess I need a pre stretched string or something ::) cause it pulled out a lot even though I had it as tight as possible before letting the clamps loose. I found myself reaching for some erasers and leather scraps and holding bridges in briefly just for a visual before it flipped on me.
Alignment stayed surprisingly good throughout tiller and I would have maybe been ok without bridges except I made the base of one siyah narrower than the other (One is wide cause it has the bows only gnarly knot at the base of the siyah). Belly s flat as a pancake. I kinda like the idea of elevating the string off the angle of the siyahs and at the same time increasing the pre draw angle of the siyahs, if that makes any sense. Probably not sayin it right :-[
Not sure on the weight but it was pulling around 50# to get to brace height on the tree. My pulley loop snapped off about that time so it was time to brace her up :o
Never done bridges so not sure.
What next?
sinew or rawhide wraps?
wood, horn, leather, bone...
And yes Parnell, I have been thinking about horn on the belly but this seems somewhat tough enough for me already ;)
Urufu, do you have some other angles of those long levers?
Thanks all
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Looking at how far it has to bend even at brace reminds me of the bows I've worked on. They didn't turn out the most successful, but you on the other hand have more skill/experiance and the benefit of large levers. However, I am curious how far your planning on drawing it. This is going to be a highly stressful design especially if its just a wood belly. Its probably too late to slap horn on now ???.
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Lilac is about as horn-like a wood as you can find. Get some rectangular blocks of wood and groove them roughly to fit the belly side of the siyahs and lash them in place. Experiment with location until you find the best spot for them.
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Yes what Pat said.I had a whole long response typed out and the site went off on me erasing my post....lol.Lashing a notched piece of wood to the heel of the lever.Just get it to brace and see what you got.I'd use a FF string so it does'nt stretch so much too.I did'nt realize lilac was that way.
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Ok Pat, will do.
Dang Bman, I would have liked to read it.
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Well I said mainly to get it to brace and stable like said with the bridges.To see what you got.The limbs have not been pitted against each other yet to see what the tiller exactly is.The question of horn I commented on.Depending on thickness of it put on will increase the poundage a fair amount too to remember.Wood removal would be in order first to have a 50# bow.1/16" thick will increase it again a good 10 pounds.2 17" long laminations butt jointed at the handle and sinew wrapped to boot is a bit more work yet.I've never worked lilac so I did'nt know like Pat said that it is that good in compression.You may not need it.
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Just btw, i have NEVER seen a compression mark in my lilac bows. Lilac is crazy elastic and strong in compression. Even though its already springy and tough, i experimented with toasting the belly and it makes the wood even better. Lilac is quite amazing stuff, i wouldn't (and others here in Finland) make bows from any other wood if i had plenty of knotless and straight lilac.
.80 sg? About.
Those string bridges are nice idea, i happened to have a similar problem as DuBois now.
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Man Marco you have made good process on that stave. Great job! Can't wait to see the FD pic.
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That's a rather heavy draw weight to get at brace. My main concern would now be:
Did you put enough sinew to take most of the tension load at full draw? If not, and the bend radius is thus small that the stretch of the wood under the sinew exceeds 1%, the bow is still at risk of breaking.
I would also keep the mass principle in mind, with some allowances for the amount of sinew. Making a 65# backed bow with the mass of a 40# wood bow seems risky to me.
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The progress is real interesting. Hope it turns out to shoot well!
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(http://hunarchery.com/catalog/images/mandzsu04.jpg)
(https://sc01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB1UBhsGXXXXXbIXFXXq6xXFXXX3/221555710/HTB1UBhsGXXXXXbIXFXXq6xXFXXX3.jpg)
(http://www.basicallybowsarchery.com/images/Bow_Manchurian_C.JPG)
(http://www.manchubows.com/images/bow7.jpg)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/de/MANCHU_SOLDIERS_2.jpg)
Does that help any? Obviously with the non-horn nature of your bow the working limb will have a different profile than the kasan eye of a horn bow, but I agree with making it slightly bendy handle and doing a cork buildup handle, I think you may actually pull this off and make a really unique and cool bow. Good Luck man!
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Thanks Ed, gonna keep at it without horn for now and see what happens with bridges added.
JNystrom, good to hear how lilac is over there. Gives me hope for this one. I'll post pics when I get some bridges on.
Joachim, it is decrowned and was 3/8" most of the length and built up with 2.65 oz. moose sinew. This was the first time I tried weighing and separating it per limb and I think it really helped even things out. It now has a crown like it did before decrowning. I'd have to measure but sinew is easily 3/16" thick at handle so I think it will be very effective no matter which way I go with all this.
Never played with the Mass principle but I'm not going for 65#, only looking for upper 40's to low 50's
Thanks Parnell and you to Urufu. Awesome pics and bows.
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In hind sight DuBois a gol darn 6 or 8 inch tapered handle could have been glued down on the backside for a handle.Then sinewed over that heavily.Wrapped around the fades etc.You get the idea.Like a regular horn bow construction.If a stiff handled bow was wanted anyway,but then horn might have to be in order too then.Who knows.Oh well roll with the punches anyway.
I'd sure like to see it shot I know that.Unique piece of wood.2.65 ounces.That's a good amount on that stretch of wood.No wonder it pulled 50#'s.
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You surely weren't frugal on the sinew!
Getting more and more interested in how you're dealing with this bow.
I personally find the mass principle very valuable for estimating safety margins and knowing what poundage to expect from a stave.
Keep us posted!
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Yes so do I.Might as well go for it.Kuddos to ya DuBois using that much sinew.!!!I'd treat this bow as a bendy handle mass weight wood bow for it's length of 52",with the composite of sinew helping to hold the integrety of the design[the levered reflex] into the 45# mass weight area numbers.That would put the bow right around 9.5 to 10 ounces overall.A little bit of a grope in the dark estimate but it should be close.Put a built up handle of cork like bubby suggested too.Getting 45#'s out of it will still be pretty snappy yet I'd say.It's his bow.He'll do what pleases him.It would be interesting to know what the bow weighs at the moment.It's gonna be what it's gonna be mass weight wise but I dare bet it's getting quite a bit of poundage out of it for the mass weight it is at the moment.
This of course if if if a string can stay on it.That's got to be first.
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Really I kind of wish I had that sucker here to tiller.You've come a long ways already.I sure hope it pans out for ya.One thing if it throws the string off at brace it should'nt break it.You'll have to get alingment of those tips dead nuts.Keep your heat gun handy.Then if the string does stay on it's a matter of how it acts after release shooting an arrow.It should stay on if everything is in line good.With it being a bendy handle I really don't know how that will all act there.Keeping it stiffish in the handle area would be a good thing I think.Keep us posted.
Well you nailed it about the alignment issues. Too much bending lever with heat gun got cracks. Not the woods fault at all. It is awesome stuff. Not done though, just lost a few inches. Came up with an alternate plan, pics of shortened levers soon to follow.
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Good to hear it's alive yet.Look forward to the finish.
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Been a while on this... ::)
Cut the ears down to 3" due to alignment issues and now at 39.25" n-n with 7.25" reflex :o :o :o
Pulling 43# in third pic.
I am just not sure on tillering something with all this reflex. To get it to low brace should it be hitting a certain wt?
And, I don't want to get rid of more wood so has anyone ever tillered by sanding/scraping off sinew?
Are the limbs too stiff in the outers or what? Thinkn of just lightly scraping sinew and working it a lot in between.
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Never heard of scraping sinew as a way of tillering. Maybe PatM has some insight on that? How many pounds is it pulling in that last shot?
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I've been waiting for the update on this bow. This tiller is not easy, it's not looking bad at all, maybe a bit more on the outer limb, but I'm no expert in this sort of design. Using the long string and getting a poundage won't tell you a whole lot tho. It's very misleading. Can you get it to a low brace and get a reading from there. It's easy to to go way too light with lots a reflex because it feels so heavy early on. It's great to see this bow coming along. I look forward to see how it comes out.
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usnyb-around 43 pounds.
HD-Yah, I have gone too far and ended up light just a few time and don't want to on this one. This amount of reflex has me unsure more than usual. I'm gonna go real easy until like you said, I get to low brace and then try to get a good idea of the weight.
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I would'nt remove any sinew.It can go past your target weight a bit to get it to brace.Getting it to brace then you'll see what you got as far as weight/tiller/alignment/and stability.You should be able to get those tips to come around to brace height on a long string with that reflex without removing material if it's 43#'s in the picture.Personally I would bring the tips to brace height with that long string and leave it there an hour at least.Stretch it slowly to get a short string on it.Then proceed.A leather booty primitive stringer will get a short string on there for ya safely.
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The saga continues!!
Couldn't get alignment straight and kept twisting off so I tried a little "gentle" heat correction but only caused sinew to lift (duh).
Removed sinew by soaking and have it now very straight and flat and going to try a little horn bow. That's what I really wanted to do all along hee hee hee