Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Ippus on September 16, 2016, 08:21:24 pm
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Hopefully my first successful bow (last attempt was some random unidentified log that died an early death).
This is my first attempt at a board bow, and I'm starting with a 72" red oak board from Home Depot ($12). The rings are a little tighter than I wanted, but it was the only one I could find with straight grain. I'll be stringing it with b50 dacron.
I'm going to use a pyramid design like in TBB II, Bows from Boards, aiming for something in the 35-45# range at 30".
Also, I discover anew that getting good pics of grain is a pain in the neck.
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/14289938_10153891618555382_7501527713100333395_o.jpg)
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/14292279_10153891618545382_1060113800219833662_n.jpg?oh=36d2d4402fef3ec74a741f967b467d85&oe=58779434)
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/14362476_10153891618550382_4374879317030227506_o.jpg)
(https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/14379952_10153891618655382_4518303485018220192_o.jpg)
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good luck, want to see how this turns out
Also, the facebook links aren't permanent. They'll stop working after a while.
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That'll do the job.
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good luck, want to see how this turns out
Also, the facebook links aren't permanent. They'll stop working after a while.
Been wondering about that for awhile. What's the best way to post your pics? I tried the attachment option, but that didn't fly.
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flickr - http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,56806.0.html
imgur.com ?
or postimage.org - though it has some questionable ads, even with my ad blocker.. ..
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Sweet! Thanks!
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I use postimage
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That looks like a nice board should work for you good luck !
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Looks like a good board.
There is a buildalong on my site for a red oak board bow. You can narrow the stave to 1 3/8" for around 45# if you tiller well.
A good first bow is one that bends in the handle and with no handle narrowing or glued on piece.
http://traditionalarchery101.com/boardbowbuildalong.html
Jawge
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The board looks good. What are the tools you are going to use?
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Scp, I'm on a pretty tight budget, so I don't have a proper plane or spokeshave. Was planning to do bulk removal with a skill saw, then work it down some more/finish roughing it out with my Mora knife, and go from there with rasp and file.
I do have a digital bow scale and a tillering tree I cobbled together last year.
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For board bows, a small block plane is probably all you need. You can use your knife as a scraper.
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You can do the bulk removal with a good rasp
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http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,35312.0.html
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You can do the bulk removal with a good rasp
with my shinto rasp, it would take an eternity, several hours... with my japanese saw I think it would take significantly less, maybe 30 minutes to an hour to cut the profile??
Hopefully I'll work on my red oak board bow when school's out on December
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I'm noticing there's actually kind of a lot of early wood in this board, in spite of the straight grain. It's actually a 1x3 (.75"x2.5") not 1x2, like most of the pyramid build-alongs I'm seeing.
Given all that early wood, I don't think it'd be overcautious to go ahead and take the limbs out to the full 2.5" before narrowing to the tips... at 72" (71 13/16" really), is that too overbuilt for red oak if I'm aiming for 40 lbs or so?
Also, bubby, no tengo table saw, per your buildalong, for ripping down to .5" limb thickness. Is it a ton of time/work to remove that wood with a knife (my rasp is the short kind) such that I should pester a buddy with a table saw to rip it for me?
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Hm. On the limb width...
Baker's ballpark rule of thumb in TBB II "Boards from Bows" for a 'low-set, safe limb-width' on a '66" stiff-handled bow drawing 50lb at 28"[...]'
Density (lb/cu ft) = Limb width
30 = 3"
35 = 2 1/4"
43 = 1 3/4"
55 = 1 1/4"
I weighed out this board at about 44.4 lb/cu ft.
Given that I'm starting with just under 72" and hoping to keep most of that, shooting for a lower draw weight, that means I'm planning easily 40% more width than I theoretically need.
But then again, he says to widen the limbs by 1/2" for every inch of early wood showing on the back... so maybe that's not too conservative after all. I mean, I probably shouldn't expect my first bow to be ludicrously efficient... I don't know. Am I just crazy over-thinking this, guys?
Favorite quote yet from TBB, though (and most encouraging), right after Baker finishes talking about going from stave to quality working bow in 9m37s: "Rushing a bow into existence by such unsubtle means might seem disrespectful. But a bow is not such a temperamental creature. Bows are not made. They cannot be made. They are tillered. An emerging bow will not permit itself to be disrespected. Regardless of the bowyer's tools or mood, the act of tillering soon has his full mind and heart. Without this communion proper tillering cannot proceed. The bow will not emerge. So make your bows as quickly or as slowly as you please."
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Me personally i would go 2-1/4" wide at the fades. If you have a skill saw just set the depth so it leaves a full 1/2" thickness on the limbs and make a bunch of kerf cuts then pop them out with a chisel or screw driver. Do that before you cut the profile of the limbs
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Chapter 2
Got the tips lined up and measured out the handle and fades.
I'm going with a 6" handle like on that cherry "ringer" from "Boards from Bows" in TBB II. 2" fades.
At this point I'm debating whether to glue on a handle (the ringer didn't), but I guess if we don't want it bending through the narrowed handle, .75" is just not enough thickness?
Think I'm going to stick with the full 2.5" width, narrowing to 3/8" at the tips, see how it goes.
(https://c7.staticflickr.com/9/8378/29738998846_c0060bc079_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/MiW9gq)IMG_0473 (https://flic.kr/p/MiW9gq)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8073/29739034336_8796677c50_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/MiWjPj)IMG_0475 (https://flic.kr/p/MiWjPj)
(https://c8.staticflickr.com/9/8199/29774786015_653245b4a6_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Mn6yxz)IMG_0474 (https://flic.kr/p/Mn6yxz)
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nice! good luck
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You don't need to glue anything on the handle at 3/4" thick
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hope it goes well, I want to build something like this, though I think I'll go with a D bow first..
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You don't need to glue anything on the handle at 3/4" thick
Thanks, bubby. I had wondered about that. I have a piece of alder about the right size, but if 3/4" is enough, I won't bother.
I did most of the bulk removal with the skill saw, and had good luck taking off wood around the handle by making kerfs with a hand saw and knocking the chips out with the chisel.
Something went a little haywire with the depth guide on the skill saw when I was kerfing the belly on one side, though, and looks like I got a bit too deep. Hopefully that doesn't leave that one tip too thin to tiller, but worst case I'll just end up shortening the bow by a couple inches on each end. It should still be wide enough near the handle for that not to be a problem.
(https://c8.staticflickr.com/9/8344/29238501183_6191e54dc9_o.jpg)
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/9/8293/29864883625_0d84d53187_o.jpg)
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Also, bubby, no tengo table saw, per your buildalong, for ripping down to .5" limb thickness. Is it a ton of time/work to remove that wood with a knife (my rasp is the short kind) such that I should pester a buddy with a table saw to rip it for me?
lel neither do I. Too big for my tiny garage. This is what I was thinking of using a plane or spokeshave (or machete) for. MAYBE my gyokucho saw would work... huh...
Rasping that much wood off with any kind of hand rasp just doesn't seem practical...
Looks nice! Good luck with tillering. I don't see the thickness taper on the fades..
6" handle seems nice
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Thanks, loon!
Haven't got as far as the thickness taper yet, just the width.
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i used the tablesaw in the build a long because more people have them compared to bandsaws. But i have done the entire belly reduction with a farriers rasp, mark the thickness the lengtg of the limbs and remove it down to the line leaving the center of the belly hi like a pyramid, then remove that
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For most board board bows a small block plane will do.
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Well, I got a surform plane and a spokeshave and the rest of the roughing out has gone MUCH faster. Now I just need to make a string and start tillering.
(https://c8.staticflickr.com/9/8362/29448219303_e32ecf2c51_o.jpg)
(https://c8.staticflickr.com/9/8668/29991774471_f5d5455eaf_o.jpg)
(https://c7.staticflickr.com/9/8420/29780595390_e20145fd0b_o.jpg)
(https://c5.staticflickr.com/6/5607/29780591020_2ca50f0303_o.jpg)
I've narrowed the tips to 3/8", from ~2 3/8" at the fades.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8777/30041184776_59e2e97c0b_o.jpg)
Speaking of fades, I know the thickness taper at the fades can be a little tricky to get right. Does this look about right?
I have the widest part marked in pencil. It travels from 3/4" down to 3/8" in thickness. Most of the limb is about 3/8" thick currently.
(https://c7.staticflickr.com/6/5253/29782058750_e3f2684b87_o.jpg)
Also, love the way the rays show up across the grain in this board.
(https://c3.staticflickr.com/6/5581/29782070130_9af3facaba_o.jpg)
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Stop now and glue a handle on. 3/4 thick is not enough. Add 1/2 inch to make it upto 1 1/4.
Also no need at all to go that wide. 1.75 is plenty.
A lot of people get set with red oak and go wider to alleviate some of it. This is the wrong thing to do. You want to trap the back eg. reduce its width relative to the width of the belly. Making the cross section a trapezoid.
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Thanks for the feedback, Mike!
I wonder if you can help me understand why you're recommending the thicker grip? That's pretty much the opposite of what Bubby said up above, and I've seen it both ways. This bow is based on a design in the Bows from Boards chapter in TBB, which does not have a glued-on riser, just a narrowed handle section at the original thickness of the board.
You don't need to glue anything on the handle at 3/4" thick
I'm not leaving the limbs wide to avoid set, more for efficiency and safety. I will definitely take a closer look at trapping.
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That's a long riser you have going. How narrow is the grip, the narrower you go the thicker the wood needs to be in that area.
If it is roughed out 1" wide by the time you are finished it will be considerably narrower and in the case i would glue a extra piece on the handle area, another variable is if you are cutting in a shelf you need thicker material at that point as well. A couple 1/4" thick strips will work fine
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Well, I was trying to mimic the cherry "ringer" in Boards from Bows (ch 2, TBB II, p29-30), which is described as having a 6" handle and wider than normal limbs (3" at the grip) tapering to 1/4" nocks. I'm not quite ambitious enough to go all the way to 1/4" my first time out...
The handle on that bow doesn't appear to be any thicker than 3/4" based on the pictures.
The handle on my bow here is 6" from fade to fade, 3/4" thick, slightly generous 1 1/4" wide in the middle (1 5/16?), tapering to 1 1/8" on either side before widening out to the limbs at just under 2.5". Is that too narrow? I was basically going to smooth the edges and then wrap it with something.
I'm hearing what you're saying about stiffening it up, though... do you think at the width I have there, it's not going to be stable enough without some added thickness?
Edit: Forgot about the arrow shelf. No, I wasn't planning on cutting in a shelf.
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Okay, got the handle piece glued on. It's a 1/2" thick piece of alder that had similar color and grain, 7" long. Total handle thickness is now ~1-1/4"
Questions for the group:
1) Looks like even though I clamped it, there's a little bit of a gap between the bow and the riser on one side there. Do I rasp it down so there's a smooth transition? Try to glue a shim or fill the gap with sawdust/glue mixture before I sand it down? Other suggestions?
2) I've read through the chapter on strings, and tbh a lot of it isn't sinking in. Can anyone recommend a good string-building video/pictorial?
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/6/5014/29894574640_dcc4f05759_o.jpg)
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/9/8548/30190212345_873f277b97_o.jpg)
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Surfaces weren't completely flat. Try to correct this connection with rasping sides.
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Handle smoothed out. I took Stalker's advice and rasp/filed down the curve to where there's no longer a gap.
(https://c4.staticflickr.com/6/5730/30198294155_d87623f4a8_o.jpg) (https://c7.staticflickr.com/9/8140/30083608062_10286bd623_o.jpg) (https://c8.staticflickr.com/6/5107/30198293295_49529b8201_o.jpg) (https://c3.staticflickr.com/9/8419/30083610722_e44d7db74d_o.jpg)
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Looking good! You did well. Same thing happened on my first attempt of board bow (it was also supposed to be my first bow). Unfortunately it broke during tillering.
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Unfortunately it broke during tillering.
Oh, don't say that! You'll jinx it, lol!
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There's backyardbowyer's videos on string building...
I think it may be easiest to really wax, then twist a bundle of strands and then tie knots. Would you be using fast-flight or dacron type material?
This knot seemed to work with D-10 (dyneema, basically just like D97) for me... can always apply some superglue, I guess. Or do overhand or a fig. 8 on a bight, which'd be more permanent. Or a zeppelin bend loop O_o .. I'd probably go with this knot first:
(https://i.imgur.com/YXxN0U5.jpg)
A timber hitch type knot is like a noose, so that could be the end that's permanently on the bow. This variation of the timber hitch is less prone to slipping, and seemed to work with D-10 for me:
(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-J6HnshxjRYA/VI0plxvAUJI/AAAAAAAAAZo/F4h_ScSgWAs/s1600/tsuruknot.gif)
from: https://echoarchery.blogspot.com/2014/12/fast-flight-strings-and-bowyers-knot.html
I think if you burn the tag/loose end after tying the knots, after they've settled with some shooting or something, the burning will expand the strands and make it so they can't slip through the knot?
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B50 dacron is what I was planning on. I bought a spool of it a ways back when I made my first stickbow attempt (picked a bad stick for it, and it didn't survive, anyway...).
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Ya may find this useful for making bowstring.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukoRMI4pbiM
Also, 2 colors of string makes things easier for me to see what am doing.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzZCfoopOKk
i think flemish would be too stretchy for dacron... could try to leave the non-loop portion untwisted I guess
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Flemish works just fine with flemish twist
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzZCfoopOKk
i think flemish would be too stretchy for dacron... could try to leave the non-loop portion untwisted I guess
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I'm liking the long riser look on that bow !
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Something to consider....narrow and thin is no bueno, especially in the fades. At the point where your limb "begins" to narrow at the fade, it should also begin to thicken correspondingly. It appears as though your thickness taper (glued in piece) begins well past that point leaving a narrow and thin section.
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The first board bow I tried to make with my only knowledge base was a 1996 copy of PA I did the same thing and the bow cracked right in the Fade area there is a lot of stress in that area , that was my first lesson of hard knocks in bow making had many more lol
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Something to consider....narrow and thin is no bueno, especially in the fades. At the point where your limb "begins" to narrow at the fade, it should also begin to thicken correspondingly. It appears as though your thickness taper (glued in piece) begins well past that point leaving a narrow and thin section.
I'm with Slim, I think the glued on section should be at least 3" longer. You can always shorten it.
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It's possible it looks worse than it is due to the proportions of the handle section. I've attached some better photos of the thickness taper.
Point D = widest part of the handle (1-1/4" wide, 1-1/4" thick)
Point C = narrowest part of handle (1-1/8" wide, 7/8" thick)
Point B = point where bow begins to taper to working thickness. At this point it still has the full 3/4" thickness of the original board and is approximately 1-3/8" wide.
Point A = widest point of the limb, 2.5" wide and ~1/2" thick.
The working thickness tapers to 3/8" further out.
(Sorry for the Facebook hosting; Flickr is being stupid and won't let me upload anything, either from the iPad or the PC. Edit: flickr stopped fooling around, so I replaced the links.)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7469/30132477952_35a333f870_o.jpg)
(https://c6.staticflickr.com/9/8131/30247605845_5eb03b0b2e_o.jpg)
(https://c4.staticflickr.com/6/5332/30161907971_39e63f7d01_o.jpg)
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I'm not a board bow guy but, board or tree stave, the principle is the same. You don't want it trying to bend in the fade. If it does here, your handle will pop off and probably break the bow in the process hitting you square between the eyes. If I was gluing on a handle, I would carry the length all the way past my fades. Then I can rasp it down to get it fine tuned right at the junction. You may have enough thickness, I don't know, just make sure it's not flexing in the handle. My guess is it will be. May want to redo the handle just to be safe. Your call as you know what you have here.
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My guess is that as long as you tiller into the fades towards the end of the process you will be fine, slim is right in that you don't want it to flex in the handle or the glued on section will pop off. That said it looks like the fades will be thick enough that they won't bend, how thick are the limbs and what draw length and weight are you shooting for?
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Thanks, guys! That's the first thing I'll watch for as I start to tiller. If it looks like it's bending in the fades at all, I'll pop that off and switch to a longer handle.
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what if you wrapped it tight with strong thread?..
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what if you wrapped it tight with strong thread?..
The handle? That was kind of my ultimate plan for a wrap, but I guess if I do it before I start tillering, it reduces the risk of its popping off and me getting it in the face.
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Wrapping it won't keep it from popping off so I'd save that for finish work if it was me
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Wrapping it won't keep it from popping off so I'd save that for finish work if it was me
Might save it flying across the room, though, lol?
I guess I was planning on wearing safety glasses anyway... ;D
Need to figure out the nocks, too. At 3/8", it's either a fiber wrap or an overlay... Any suggestions?
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Was leaning toward wrapped nocks, actually, but I can't seem to track down a good how-to.
Wrapped vs. overlay?
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That said it looks like the fades will be thick enough that they won't bend, how thick are the limbs and what draw length and weight are you shooting for?
The limbs are a slightly generous 3/8" currently, maybe a little more in a couple places. I'm aiming for 35-45 lbs at 30".
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I prefer an overlay with the string groove mostly in the overlay
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Ippus, use Postimage for posting images
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Yeah, the facebook image links expire..
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K. Flickr works today, so I replaced the FB links.
Got the nocks on and string made. Tied on a long string (just paracord) and put it on the tree just to see what we have to work with. Slowly exercised it up to about 25 lbs, then checked it.
Looks like the left limb is pretty stiff, and there's the beginning of a hinge on the right.
(https://c8.staticflickr.com/6/5559/30247584295_28798eb6b6_o.jpg)
(https://c8.staticflickr.com/9/8408/30161905831_33a3fe573e_o.jpg)
I don't think it's bending in the fade. The light's not perfect, and my tillering tree doesn't want to stay level.
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Get a piece of 6" long straight wood for a straight edge and run it along the limbs and you will see where it isn't bending proper as the gap will change. As soon as it changes mark the bow in that spot keep moving and when the gap changes mark and scrape between the marks.
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Get a piece of 6" long straight wood for a straight edge and run it along the limbs and you will see where it isn't bending proper as the gap will change. As soon as it changes mark the bow in that spot keep moving and when the gap changes mark and scrape between the marks.
Hey, cool! Thanks!
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Well, I kept at it. I got it to low brace, took a little off, tried again, took a little more off trying to get it evened out. Eventually took it to 35# at 27".
Seems like there's still a little bit of hinge close in on the right, and the left limb is still too stiff, but it feels like it's getting closer.
(https://c8.staticflickr.com/8/7547/30251336215_0a3070c98a_o.jpg)
Also looks like it's taken a little bit of set. Hm. I think I can live with that much.
(https://c4.staticflickr.com/9/8720/30165724811_b992555f15_o.jpg)
Maybe tomorrow night I'll try full brace, and see if I can't get it evened out. If it's only pulling 35# at 27" though, I'm thinking I won't get much more than that at 30", by the time I have it all evened out.
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that right limb is doing most of the work at that hinge, you need to stay 8" away from it and get the rest of the limb working. Use the straight edge get both limbs bending better and don't pull it past 18" till it is right, you will be surprised how little weight you will lose. Once you see a problem never go past that draw length till it is corrected
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looks like it's bending too much at the inner limbs to me..
good that it seems to have no set though. Oh wait. You put it upside down so it looked reflexed haha
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Right limb does not bend at all
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that right limb is doing most of the work at that hinge, you need to stay 8" away from it and get the rest of the limb working. Use the straight edge get both limbs bending better and don't pull it past 18" till it is right, you will be surprised how little weight you will lose. Once you see a problem never go past that draw length till it is corrected
Thanks, bubby. That's the part I should have remembered... Probably why it has as much set as it does already.
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Don't worry you will get it, i have seen many bows from guys that have built some that were way worse😉
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Well, I had time to work on the tiller more today. Looks like that left limb is now bending pretty evenly, and the hinge I was seeing on the right isn't so pronounced, but the outer right limb is still a bit stiff.
(https://c8.staticflickr.com/6/5750/30241795511_f50b16a6e3_o.jpg)
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Yes the right limb needs some work mid out
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The left limb looks good! To me..
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The left does look good just work the right
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Thanks, y'all!
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Got it bending evenly, although it might need a little fine-tuning. I had to stop to clean up for dinner, but I'm hesitant to take off any more; it's was bending evenly enough that I went ahead and pulled it to 25, then 28, then 30. Still looked even (I'll try and get another shot later), but it's only pulling about 28# at 30 in, which undershoots the goal a bit.
On the plus side, I could shoot it all day without getting tired, and I managed to get it to full draw without it breaking. No sign of trouble with the handle/fades, either.
'bout an inch of set, though, when I first unstring it.
(https://c5.staticflickr.com/6/5805/29718152804_653b21a612_o.jpg)
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That is much better man, good job
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Awesome job! Light bows are nice to pull..
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Ippus, don't worry about being underweight. Same thing happened to my first two bows. After that I started to make thickness taper at first couple of milimeters thicker then I projected it to be at targeted draw weight. That left me enough wood.
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Looks good congrats ! I did one under weight too some times its nice to have a light bow for tunning up your form.
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Adjusted the timber hitch to string it at full brace.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5441/30287148001_fc06cb5464_o_d.jpg)
Full draw, pulls 27.75 lbs. @30"
Set when just unbraced is about 1.5"
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5792/30338115066_5fdafa04a2_o_d.jpg)
Now I just need to do some finishing stuff (wrap the handle, stain it, etc) and then... time to make arrows!
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That brace looks really good man...glad to see you made it this far. Good luck to the finish line!
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Eh, slight orientation issue on that last one.
(https://c7.staticflickr.com/6/5613/30338118926_1c17c4ac16_h.jpg)
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Congrats on your first bow!
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Got it sanded down and started putting a finish on it. Decided to keep it dirt simple and rub it down with rendered fat (beef tallow for now). It's a target bow, so I didn't see a need for extreme sealing or anything.
Got the nocks cleaned up and smoothed out, too.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5578/30202594930_090b4fe605_o_d.jpg)
Getting ready to wrap the handle tonight... After the second coat was worked in, it kind of glows... there's something about buffed oiled wood that just makes it feel like kind of a shame to cover it up with a wrap.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5750/30414274351_673bbb04c5_o_d.jpg)
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5350/30414277951_69e46df37a_o_d.jpg)
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Congratulations, that is fine looking pyramid bow!
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There is nothing wrong with a naled grip, looks great!!
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(https://c6.staticflickr.com/9/8643/30523373685_ca9a3cb852_o.jpg)
(https://c4.staticflickr.com/6/5795/29890653123_2d1e293440_o.jpg)
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Very sharp lookin man....especially for your first. Im sure we will see more of you.
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Looks like good workmanship, clean, nice finish. Great job with the handle wrap..
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wow... that turned out really nice!!!
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What is that for handle wrap? I like it.
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Looks like hemp wrapped neatly (serving wrap? or whipped?), possibly with the frayed fibers burned off after wrapping. I'd be surprised if no glue to keep it from slipping was used.. I've done it without glue and it just slips.
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It's jute twine, fine. Wrapped it tight and then saturated with slightly watered wood glue. I worked it a little bit while the glue was wet to smooth down the loose fibers a bit.
As much as I liked the smooth look and feel of the wood, this provides a really good gripping surface, no sliding around in the hand at all.
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Good idea, I'll probably do the same thing in future for my bows, leather doesn't really appeal to me, looks too "modern".
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I've always liked a twine wrapped handle.I saturate mine twine wrap with TT3.It stays.Very nice looking all around pyramid bow you made there.I know what you mean though about nothing on the handle at all.Wooden bows have a attractant to them that you want to handle/look at/and shoot.
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(serving wrap? or whipped?)
I wrapped the end under the first 1/2" and used a pencil to tuck under the last 1/2" I rotated the bow and kept tension on the twine with my other hand, so... I guess that's serving?
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Me too.Sometimes I put a drop of super glue on the end and tack it to the bow and wrap over it.I go around the edge with a small paint brush and put a bead of glue there too.It won't go anywhere.Gauranteed!!!!