Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Shooting and Hunting => Topic started by: Knoll on October 19, 2016, 09:35:08 pm
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Ok fellas, need input, please.
Recently finished a bow and am in process of making some arrows for it.
Set nock height at 3/8". Bareshaft is flying straight, but significantly nock high.
Set nock height at 1/4". Bareshaft indicating weak spine, but nock is level.
When bareshaft testing, should I pay any attention to nock high/level/low?
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Mike.....my experience is to have the nock a little high, pay more attention to the nock right or left. I have found that when the nock is a bit high and straight ...no left or right... I fletch the arrow and it will fly like a dart....
DBar
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Will put some feathers on it and see what it does.
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I agree with Bill, left to right is far more important. But if you say that the nock is significantly high, then you need to make adjustments to lower that nock. If that arrows is telling you that it is too weak at that point, then try trimming a half inch or so off the point end, or find a lighter point.
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I've never really been that convinced of the value of bare shaft testing.
Do you check out the handling of your car by trying it without the tyres? ::) >:D
Del
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I also look at left and right, they usually hit knock high, now if it is really bad knock I may adjust it a bit but just a little I go with that. We're not talking about cars Del, we are talking about arrows, now an air plans with out wings might be another matter. ;) ;D ;D ;D
Pappy
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And it's spelled tires Del. ;)
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I've never really been that convinced of the value of bare shaft testing.
Do you check out the handling of your car by trying it without the tyres? ::) >:D
Del
To adapt that analogy a little, I would think of bare shaft testing more like balancing your tires, yes it's possible to test the tires on the car, but you would only find big obvious problems, whereas if you test the tire on a balancing machine it's much easier to detect smaller issues.
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I've never really been that convinced of the value of bare shaft testing.
Do you check out the handling of your car by trying it without the tyres? ::) >:D
Del
To adapt that analogy a little, I would think of bare shaft testing more like balancing your tires, yes it's possible to test the tires on the car, but you would only find big obvious problems, whereas if you test the tire on a balancing machine it's much easier to detect smaller issues.
Yeah, but I've never seen tires balanced on a machine! Only the wheel and tyre assembled together and that's my point.
... forget I ever mentioned it... ::) (wanders off in search of a cup of tea, seein as how you're all gangin' up on me ;) "Tires" indeed... never heard of such a thing ::))
Del
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And it's spelled tires Del. ;)
I think we may be forgetting that we speak "English". Del would be the one who IS English! >:D
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I'm surprised Del...If you want to flight shoot you gotta get those arrows to fly right for distance.Same way with the arrow sticking into the target.Straight line is the best for the best penetration.
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I'm surprised Del...If you want to flight shoot you gotta get those arrows to fly right for distance.Same way with the arrow sticking into the target.Straight line is the best for the best penetration.
Yeah I know that. This isn't the flight shooting forum.
I thought this was Hunting... I'd have thought a broadhead would have a big influence on the flight of an arrow and that the fletchings were an essential integral part of the arrow.
Mind I don't actually hunt (not allowed in UK) I don't shoot broadheads. So I'll fess up.... I don't know what I'm talking about, so I won't say any more on this topic. :-[
Del
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Well believe it and I do or not there is an overlapping gray area between flight shooting and hunting when it comes to arrow flight.The best flying arrows should be used for hunting as well as flight shooting.Sorry to ruffle your feathers.
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Well believe it and I do or not there is an overlapping gray area between flight shooting and hunting when it comes to arrow flight.The best flying arrows should be used for hunting as well as flight shooting.Sorry to ruffle your feathers.
My feathers are fine ta' we all need a slap down now and again to stop us talking BS or getting our heads wedged up our backsides..
No prob' :)
Del
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Del, I hunt and hunt only. Never bare shaft tuned a bow. I grab 29" long 45-50 and 50-55 arrows I have around, one or the other always fly great from 45-55 bows.
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Knoll....I dare bet just a small amount of feathers on your shaft will have it nailing it dead straight.Contrary to traditionalists I'm a little different.I try to get by with the least amount of feathers on my shafts.If I could hunt without feathers I would in fact.
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Each to his own I say.
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Ed I think the type of shafting used by each of us makes a huge difference on how we approach it.
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Yes I'll agree with that.Hand split parallel shafts are different than tapered shoot shafts,and it was'nt stated by Knoll which.I assumed parallel.
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It's been interesting to read these posts. But, I have a confession. I was shooting this bareshaft-tested arrow from the wrong bow! UGGHHHH!
Went out this morning and shot from "correct" bow. Surprise surprise . . . flight is near perfect staright and nock just a tad high. Now can go ahead and fletch it.
Gettin' old is quite the adventure. :P :embarassed: :laugh:
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I guess we all don't build as good of bows and arrows as you Pearl, I can't just grab any arrow and it fly well out of my bows, may be the arrows, may be the bow :-\ but either way I bare shaft to get the arrows flying right for the bow and then fletch. ;) As Ed said to each their own. ;) :) Del you bare shaft with field points and then match the weight with the broad head you plan on using, can't bare shaft with broad heads, the head will take over the guidance of the arrow and it will do all kinds of crazy things. I was told many years ago when I first started shooting stick bows, anything will shoot out of these things, well YES anything will shoot out of them but believe me anything won't shoot right and hit where you look. I am a bad enough shot as it is, I sure don't want it to be because my arrows aren't well tuned for the bow I am using. A shooting bow is pretty easy to make but a good arrow is heap big trouble. :) Hope no one takes offence here, but arrow flight and a well tuned arrow to the bow is one of my pet peeves. ;) :)
Pappy
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Ah, thanks for the explanation Pappy, makes sense now :)
Del
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I don't believe the quality of a bow has anything to do with it, all things being equal. I make bows like everybody else does and don't deserve a 1/16 of the internet recognition I get. Repeatable form rules all. You can have a super tuned bow shooting super tuned quiet arrows one day and the next day you're maybe short drawing a bit, or maybe the draw elbow is too high, or grip too tight and that same set up sounds like a 12 gauge going off and you stand there wondering what happened to your super tuned bow. Form, form, form. At least for me, I find this to be all true.
I'm an arrow flight freak just like you pappy. I don't always obtain it every practice session due to the factors I just mentioned, but its always my aim and always has been. A quiet bow and perfect flight. Every bow and arrow is capable, but is every archer every day?
And here is my question for the fella's that do bareshaft often. When you stack up your stash of arrows. How many various lengths (+/- 1")and spines (+/- 5#) do you have in front of you? How much variance in arrows do you find from one 50# bow to the next 50# bow?
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And, that would mean new arrows for every new bow? No way!!!! That's a lot of money and 2000 arrows laying around my shop :)
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I think lower you knocking point and you will be ok,,
I dont normally bear shaft,, but I had a shaft with no feathers the other day,,
so I shot it just for fun,, shot pretty good,, but the knock was hitting high
I lowered the nocking point on the string and the arrow flew and hit great,,
like I said I normally just shoot what ever arrow flies the best out of my bow,, if I am making dog wood shafts, I will shoot them bare, just to get them in the ball park,,
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There's quite a variety to the bows I make. From 20# kid bows to 47# adult bows. That's one reason I got into bareshaft testing. Also wide variance in distance between "side plate" and bowstring.
I find myself using variety of shaft materials. Also buy "2nd's" when I find them and that often means wide spine variances. That's additional reasons I began bareshaft testing.
One of fav bows is 43# @ 25". Have 4 "sets" of arrows that work well with that bow.
set1 33# 28 1/2" 275 gn w/o point 125 gn point german spruce, 5/16
set3 49# 29 1/2" 310 100 sitka spruce 5/16
set4 49# 30 1/2" 375 125 cane 5/16ish
set5 46# 30" 315 125 carbon >:D
And I find bareshaft testing to be fun activity.
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Chris when I build a bow, yes I do make at least 3 arrows that are solely intended to be used out of that bow. Sometimes more, but that depends on the intent of the bow.
I will make them all the same length according to the draw length of the bow, therefore when I use those arrows, you cannot overdraw the bow. I start with heavy spined arrows, shoot them, then continue to scrape them down until they are flying straight into my target. Then fletch. If I scrape off too much, then those get tossed to the side for a lighter weight bow.
Yes, you do end up with lots of arrows, but I enjoy making arrows nearly as much as I enjoy building bows. Not saying this is the right or only way, this is just the way I do it.
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But you aren't using parallel shafts with a know spine, correct?
I'm not arguing with anybody here as I don't care what anybody else does to gain confidence in a rig, that's a good thing for anybody. Just trying to wrap my head around it. 20 +/- years of doing this stuff has never proven to me its needed for MY set ups. I doubt it has anything to do with my alleged "trophy" bows, they are no different than yours or anybody else that knows how to bend wood evenly. I cant see why one 50# self bow needs anything different than the next 50# self bow. That's why I asked just how much variance you bare shafters have from set to set in similar bows.
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Sometimes I will start with a known spine. Whether it be bamboo, PO cedar, Sitka spruce, etc. But a lot of times I will make them from shoots like dogwood or even river cane. I approach them all the same way. Start heavy, then scrape down to achieve good flight. Mind you must be careful when dealing with bamboo or cane and only lightly scrape.
I also have a wide range of draw weights when it comes to my collection of bows, and yes some of them will shoot ok from one bow to the other of equal weights.
As far as spine, I no longer measure them to see any variance. The only measurement I care about is weight.
I see bare shaft tuning as a fine adjustment. Plus I like just having matching "sets".
Once again, I just enjoy building arrows, and I do notice a difference in performance and accuracy, therefore in my opinion it is worth the time and effort.
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But, I haven't been doing this nearly as long as many of you, and maybe it is just me inserting confidence into my shooting, whatever it is, it works for me.
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there can be quite a difference in variation, in how someone holds a bow or releases the string,,
so one set up might not work for all,, but overall, I think a well made bow is not that finicky, and will shoot a wide range of arrows if need be,, bare shafting is not a normal part of my bow tuning, but I dont discount its merits either,, I am probably just to lazy to take full advange of the process,, if the arrow is flying good out of the bow,, feathers or not,, I am happy with that,, :)
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That's why 1 set of a dozen or two arrows tuned correctly shoot fine on a number of my 50 to 55 # bows.No need so much for so many arrows any more for the same poundage bows.That's my goal most times.The only thing then is the mass weight or the high or low impact difference at greater distances.
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i had this concept of tuning come up last year right before a shoot. my shooting was all over the place and i was frustrated as hell so one of my buddies brought me over and got me to shoot. my form looked ok so we rip off my fletchings off one arrow and shot it. darn thing took off at a 45 without those feathers... "theres your problem"
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ugh, i guess that's also my problem.. unmatched arrows, bs groups. :(
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sometimes its not the arrow, it might be the way the bow is set up,, brace height,, arrow pass,, etc
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Grip means a lot as well. Your hand placement and pressure spot has to be exactly the same every time.
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I couldn't help myself, curiosity over whelmed me. I grabbed a bare shaft that spined and weighed the same as what I've been using on several bows for quite a while now, 51-52#. I glued a nock and point on and went outside to shoot it. I shot at 8-10 yards. Its dead straight, no up or down or left or right. I expected as much based on my past experiences, but you guys almost had me convinced my arrow flight eyes aren't as good as I had thought and perhaps my arrows weren't all they could/should be. I guess I can see the flight well enough to know if the arrow matches or doesn't. I feel better now knowing my eyes didn't deceive me.
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I have heard that you want to test them at about 10-15 ft. How far out does everyone else test?
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Begin shooting at close distance is prudent strategy to avoid breaking them if they're way too strong or weak spinewise. I start at 5 yds.
As I get them flying decent at that short distance, move couple yards away.
Rinse and repeat.
I usually stop at 15 yds.
Also, as I get them better zeroed in, whack just 1/4" off at a time. Yeah, it takes me awhile, but I have the time avail. :)
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i mean it is the same as anything... just like a rifle.. it could very well be that your jerking the trigger... but how would you ever really know if your scope is out, your barrel is dirty, and your using inconsistent ammunition for your gun.
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So far I only have 12 parallel shafts and I didn't bother with extensive bareshafting these. I fussed with my 1st and 2nd worked out the same I had my numbers made the rest the same. I shot each one bareshaft before I fletched just the same they all shoot fine. My shoot arrows are far more time consuming. I mean far far far more time consuming. I don't have a lot of different bows to shoot from yet just 3 and they are close in draw but not exactly the same. One doesn't have arrow shelf so it doesn't like the same as the other two which are both close to center shoot. My shoot arrows I always bareshaft now and flip them over to see which way they shoot best. I try to file center section of shafts to get my Happy spine number caution to slightly high side the file point end down
To try to match my physical weight. Then I put on my 125 grain target point and shoot it bareshaft and work it till it flies right. Once you have the numbers you can get pretty close from the start, getting that 1st one right for the bow is time consuming especially with my limited experience. It is very true you have to do everything with good consistent form for good results but if you have know idea what your bow likes I think with shoot arrows bareshaft testing is a very valuable tool.
Bjrogg
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Unless I am making shoot shafts or Cain I don't bare shaft every arrow,with them I do. I start with 1 if they are bought shafts, I spline test all of them and mark what they are, they aren't always the same bought or not. Then I take 1 and tune it, then I just make the rest to match by scrapping/ add length or shorten. I use a 160 field tip on all of them because that is about what all my hunting heads either bought or made weigh. :) I shoot about the same arrow in most bows but as we all know 50lbs at a given draw ant the same in every bow as far is speed/performance/early string tension/RD/flipped tips/center shot all make a difference /all bow aren't equal. ??? May not be much but some difference , so beings I have nothing else to do ;) I take the time and tune arrows for every bow. Like Pearl said Yes I can go in the cabin and pull out a hand full of most any of my arrows and they will shoot pretty good on of about any of my bows, just not as good as they could if I have tuned them. ;) It's like anything else in this stuff we do, no real wrong or right, if it don't bother you than by all means don't waste your time but if it does bother you as it does me then bare shafting works very well. ;) :) One last thought, the arrow is the most important part of an accurate shooting of a bow. You can have the tiller off and it may not be as smooth and may have more hand shock but if you have a well tuned arrow to the bow it will hit the same spot every time if you do your part and the same thing every time you shoot it. Guys spend hours finishing a bows and dolling them up after it is shooting and think nothing of it. ??? I am a little slack on that but not with my arrows. ;)
Pappy
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you are right Pappy,,, I can shoot a handfull of different arrows pretty good,, probably good enough to kill a deer,,
but if I have the time,, one of those arrows shoots consistantly better,,,if I take the time to match that,, then the bow can shoot real good,, I have to be in pretty good practice to see the difference , but when I am I can,, I have some really nice laminated birch shafts, that shoot great out of my self bow,,, I am hoping to get some dogwood to fly that good,,
Jayman, you are right, if you release is not good or form is off,,,, you are not going to be able to tune the arrows,, just takes alot of patience and practice,,
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Pappy's right in his train of thought.
The only place that sends me very even dimensioned consistent weight and spine within 10 to 15 grains and spine of under 5#'s difference is surewood shafts for parallel shafts.He'll hand pick through them.They are'nt cheap though.
bjrogg...Once I get one shoot shaft done I've got a pattern so to speak if all the other shoots are from the same area or the same kind.The rest usually all fall into the same diameter/length/and spine for me.Still some just don't make it after bare shaft tuning.It's just the way it is I figure,and yes those shoot shafts especially dogwood do take more time to make for me anyway.
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I cant see why one 50# self bow needs anything different than the next 50# self bow. That's why I asked just how much variance you bare shafters have from set to set in similar bows.
Heck I have one red oak board bow, true self bow, no backing, its a dog. I also have a nice Osage stave bow, true self bow, no backing. Its not a dog. They definitely take 2 different arrows. The Osage bow is significantly more efficient than the board bow. It is also narrower in the grip. It became very clear during tuning that the Osage bow needed an arrow that was significantly stiffer than what the board bow needed.
Difference between the arrows? 5# of spine, 2" of length, 11/32" vs 5/16".
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Heck I have one red oak board bow, true self bow, no backing, its a dog. I also have a nice Osage stave bow, true self bow, no backing. Its not a dog. They definitely take 2 different arrows. The Osage bow is significantly more efficient than the board bow. It is also narrower in the grip. It became very clear during tuning that the Osage bow needed an arrow that was significantly stiffer than what the board bow needed.
Difference between the arrows? 5# of spine, 2" of length, 11/32" vs 5/16".
Draw wt of the 2 bows is same?
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Heck I have one red oak board bow, true self bow, no backing, its a dog. I also have a nice Osage stave bow, true self bow, no backing. Its not a dog. They definitely take 2 different arrows. The Osage bow is significantly more efficient than the board bow. It is also narrower in the grip. It became very clear during tuning that the Osage bow needed an arrow that was significantly stiffer than what the board bow needed.
Difference between the arrows? 5# of spine, 2" of length, 11/32" vs 5/16".
Draw wt of the 2 bows is same?
Yes, 50# at my draw.
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Would bows bending like this when shooting have arrow flight tail up/head down? (high nock height?)
(https://i.imgur.com/z1MfoV3.jpg)