Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: Ruddy Darter on October 28, 2016, 04:38:43 pm
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I'm wondering if this is a good time to cut wood (for longbow if not warbows depending on what I can get) , Hazel, ash Holly mainly, maybe some small yew, it's just I might have a chance to cut some now and it won't be possible another time. Will there be an issues on seasoning to consider or anything else to watch out for. I'd like to think it's worth doing. (?)
I think February is optimum time for cutting but not sure, thanks for any enlightenment on this.
R.D.
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Cut it now and you can attempt to do fast drying. Meaning you rough the bow to near finished dimensions in profile and thickness but you leave some excess wood, then you clamp it to a steel or aluminum profile so it doesn't move and you put it in some shed or on attic. After a month or so, remove the clamps, clear the bow a little and put it in house near radiator. Watch when it stops loosing mass and then wait some week, then you can proceed to the tillering.
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Thanks Stalker, I was going to try something like that, although the stuff I'll possibly get won't be far off bow dimensions after splitting, I doubt I'll get anything that substantial but for a couple of pieces to have a play with will be worthwhile. I wondered if there would be any marked differences in the woods properties, or more prone to checking.
Thanks again,
R.D.
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Some say the sap runs slower now as the leaves drop, some say the sap runs more or less constant through the year but late Autumn and winter are my preferred times to cut as the brambles and nettles die back so access is easier and with the leaves gone finding straight sticks is easier too
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That sounds about right, I wondered if there was an optimum month for cutting but I have to go for it now anyway. :)
Anyone use anything to protect against bugs etc?
R.D.
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Once I had a carving student who was a proficient stick maker. He asked me, with a knowing smile, in front of the class, who he had already tipped the wink to, when was the best time to cut a stick, and I said in mid-Winter. Ah no he said, with a good-natured chuckle, the best time to cut a stick is when you find it.
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Late summer / autumn is in my experience time when the sap runs very slow and bark is not easily removed. That is the time when wood gets its late growth ring. Some say now is best time to cut, but experience of some good bowyers tells me that it actually doesn't matter when you cut the wood. If you cut it in spring when wood is juicy and early rings start to grow, does it really make that back of the bow weak? No, it doesn't.
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Lol, I think that sums it up stuckinthemud, good saying ;D
Thanks Stalker, I suppose it's trial and error and a learning curve, I do like the cutting wood when you can is the best time saying :)
R.D.
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regarding bugs and creepy crawlies, healthy wood doesn't seem to have too many residents, especially saplings with their smoother bark - less nooks and crannies for things to live in. No-one I have read posting on PA seems to advocate using chemicals, and although I have only cut a couple of dozen staves, I haven't found any troublesome pests.
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There is an optimum time for cutting wood depending what you're doing (for example elm in spring if you want the bark for weaving), and my belief is that January time is when there will be the least sap, but as has been said the absolute best time to do it is when you have a saw, permission and time!
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The bugs depend a lot on where you live. Here, bugs are not even something I'm concerned about. I don't know if it's the weather(mild and wet)or something else but the bugs around here don't seem to move in until the wood is rotten. I keep my staves dry and I've never had an issue. I got a piece of Black Locust from about 100 mi south and it had a lot of bug holes in it. But they had grown over so the infestation was while the tree was alive. You've been working wood for awhile so you should have a feel for how well wood stores in your vicinity.
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O.k., thank you.. It was something I thought I'd question on if ever it was an issue. The winters here in the UK seem to be milder in recent years. I had in mind a mild rub of cedar oil or a few bay leaves to keep them company if I were to use anything, but not a concern then. Thanks,
R.D.
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Hazel, ash and holly - now! Any time between now and February is optimum. I'm doing all my ash and hazel early November.
Cut it, strip the bark immediately, seal and leave it.
If you have lots of holly I'll trade you some European aspen for a stave ;)
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Hi WillS, I had a little look over there today and I'm not that hopeful, the Holly is pretty twisted and full of crowns or too small to bother with and same with the Hazel, nothing reasonably clean or substantial. I'm a tad disappointed to be honest. I'll have another stroll over there tomorrow but I'll be lucky to get one piece of something worthwhile. Would of liked a trade :-\.
I'll keep looking though... (thanks for those tips)
R.D.
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If they're a bit small, maybe you could mark them out and tidy them up for next year. Remove all the little branches etc and you'll have a good stock for later.
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I think there's probably a lot better places, getting permission being the key. I was being hopeful because it's local.
R.D.
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I cut bow wood when an opportunity strikes. If I have my choice I prefer to cut whitewoods(elm, ash, hickory, oaks, etc.)early during the growing season so the bark slips exposing a good, clean back. For woods like osage, locust or mulberry I prefer winter cutting for lower moisture content and fewer bugs, snakes and sweat...but when available mostly.
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Thanks Pat B. Crikey, snakes.. Thankfully not such an issue here...fantastic creatures, but I'm not good with snakes. :-[. :D
R.D.
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I keep a saw in the boot of my car. My kids got to worrying whether or not they'd be sharing the car with a random piece of tree on the school run for a while....Whereabouts are you based?
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I'm in Berkshire, SE UK. We got some very old yews here. The
Ankerwycke Yew where the magna carta was signed is nearby, that's worth Googleing out of interest. If allowed a branch of that tree to make a bow that would very cool. ;D
R.D.
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I'm in S Wales. I'm very lucky that when the mines closed the tips were reclaimed and some of them have grown over with scrub and young forest and around here those young woodlands stretch the length of the valley, with no really clear ownership so I don't feel too guilty about taking the occasional stave - the woods are primarily oak, hazel, beech, silver birch, ash and thorn trees. I've also had a chat with local farmers and found tree surgeons really helpful too. Have you checked out Arbtalk, Woodlots, or, the the forestry commission web-sites?
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It's a little difficult around here, most pockets of forest and woodlands are part of the crown estates so probably hard to get permission, majority local is oak, pine and birch. The Hazel is well used here and doesn't get a chance to grow to any reasonable size. I think the best bet is chatting to local tree surgeons and landscape gardeners on the chance for an apple/fruit tree which is something I'll like to have a go with, Thanks for that info I'll give that a go. 8)
R.D.
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I can appreciate the difficulties posed by landowners like the National Trust and Crown estates that's why I really appreciate the situation I am blessed with. The networks I suggested might open up some avenues worth exploring - there are others too. Maybe some of the other UK bowyers can suggest some locations near you to harvest in? Alternatively, billet bows can use the shorter straight lengths you find in hedgerows and the like
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Thanks stuckinthemud, this is all good food for thought. As the saying goes 'where there's a will...there could also be a heavy fine if cut from the wrong place ' :D thanks again, I'll look into all this. I should be able to get hawthorn/blackthorn for billets easy enough, reckon I'd try for a primitive with that. (had a couple of good full length pieces a couple of years ago but messed them up, I got a bit more savvy now hopefully)
R.D.
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I'm guessing you're in the Runnymede area then? My parents are the other side of Windsor so next time I'm heading that way I'll see if I can bring some staves/logs down.
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That's very kind of you Lucasade, I'd have to sort some kind of trade for that generosity. Very much appreciated mate. 8)
R.D.
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Del was extremely generous to me with some horn recently so I'm just passing it on :)
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That's a cool way to be, Thanks Del! You inspire people in a really good way. ;D
R.D.
... Just had a Pacific yew stave arrive, and I think it's a nice stave to my novice eyes. I didn't say anything incase I jinxed it, it's a little over 85" and about 2.5",×2.5" most of the length, 2"at the smallest end, and very straight. I'm 😊
I'm going to give it more seasoning time and wondered if I could keep indoors with no heating out of direct like over the winter, be OK?
Here is the stave.. Seems to be very clean with just a few pins on the back.
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Looks really good to me - what you planning on doing with it? Depending on how heavy you are going, you might not have to reduce the sapwood: what state is the sapwood in - any ring violation/scratches? Yew can cope with an awful lot, the only time I lifted a splinter was where there was a teeny scratch across the crown that I didn't spot but I just polished the scratch out and it was all good - didn't even need a patch. I like about 1/4" (6mm) of sap-wood on a medium weight bow but I've only made a couple of yew bows.
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I'd say 1/2", smidgen under, and pristine. I'd like to get the most from the stave.. So a heavy weight warbow (140@31"draw) see for sure nearer the time, here's pics of sapwood, an idea of pins and the sapwood condition and the only knots I can see 15" down from the small end.
R.D.
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Think you might only need to tidy up that top ring, hopefully one of the experienced warbow guys will chip in but the sapwood looks good as is for a big war-bow
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Thanks stuckinthemud, yes I'd like to just clean it up and do minimal although the rings look well defined and easy to chase down to a single ring, one of the pics gives an idea of ring count and I'm just going work it to dimensions and whatever weight it comes out at, I'm not chasing a draw weight as such and no more than 140 draw, anyone have ideas on it's full potential out of interest? Or what would be an ideal weight best suited for this stave?
And can I work it down to near dimensions (going to let it acclimatise for a week or so) or best leave as is while I let it season for a few months? Thanks
R.D.
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How much did it cost?
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$$$ too much for me :D, I'm not too comfortable admitting I've paid for wood let alone a fair amount, but this is a one off that I can't really afford but hopefully give me the chance to make a good yew bow for myself, :)
R.D.
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I'd take the sapwood down a lot, personally.
A lot of people are still making "warbows" with thick (1/4" or more) sapwood and Victorian style nocks. When you look at the original military weight yew bows the sapwood is almost non-existent. Ian Sturgess' recent video is an excellent example of how it should be done and how far you can take the sapwood down. If the cross section is correct and is a fat galleon section, you should ideally be able to see the heartwood on both sides as you look directly at the back of the bow. It needs about 3 or 4mm sapwood maximum, but pacific yew can definitely take that.
European Yew is different, and some needs to be thicker, but that stave you've got is beautiful, and just needs a whisker-thin backing of sapwood. It's the heartwood that gives the power, so have as much as possible!
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Thank you WillS, and advice taken on board. I noticed a slice off the sapwood on one side and looks like it will still be on the bow when reduced so I'll definitely take it down passed that, I'll aim for something like you say, I will l in eave as it is until I take off what wood I can so i don't dent it. I'm going to take my time with this. Nice one.
R.D.
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Just noticed a sharp angled scallop slice away right at the centre which may dictate I have to leave it 5 or6mm sapwood so the round belly profile fits within, not a problem as I like the look of quite thick sapwood. I glued some wood stirrers together so I could check the profile and see what I could fit in (estimate. Have to get one of those steel comb profile gauges). The centre of the belly grain is right about on that angled edge. I roughly estimated the flat crown that has a little rise at the centre which may give me a couple more mm when I get to it.
Just for the centre what dimensions would be good to aim for for a130@31 for Oregon yew if anyone could offer an opinion? (40mm x 36mm including 1/4" sapwood?)
And a good length? (I had in mind 78&3/4" )
R.D.
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Not sure why anyone thinks the sap should be taken into consideration when cutting wood. I cut according to the growing season. I refuse to cut any whitewood during the growing season because I want my back ring to be as thick as possible so that means early Spring then Fall into Winter, never in the Summer. If you wait too long to cut in the Spring then there might be issues with the wood being saturated with sap, this can cause problem with drying with the possibility of drying checks forming even if the bark is left on.
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That's what happened to a couple of logs of Holly I got, in fact all Holly I've ever got, I think it was cut mid-late spring ( I found it in a log pile from woodland clearance, I didn't cut it) I split and debarked and removed pith and in a day the back split tremendously all over. It was for carving wood so not too much a pain, I filled the splits with woodglue to save as much large sections as possible. If I ever get Holly for a bow I'd be tempted to keep the bark on even if cut late winter, and maybe p.v.a over the bark too, I did this for one piece I found and it seasoned well indoors with no checking at all, but was too knotted and crooked for a bow. I reckon it's one to season slowly, and as a stave not half log.
R.D.
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Kept the bark on my holly to slow its drying, no checks at all except for an inch or so in the ends - was a half, log, good long length but not too fat around
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I managed to source a couple of ash staves (Fraxinus excelsior), they look quite good to me, clean with only a very few little pins on the back. One will need a little straightening.
They were cut a little under a week ago(not by me) and I've just finished taking off the bark and painted the ends(wood glue and p.v.a.). A couple of pics of where I'm leaving them, they will get a nice little draft from the gap under the garage door. Good enough place?
They are just rough quarter split... Is there anything else I need to do?
Should I tie them to a form at all or o.k. Like this?
And what sort of draw weight could I expect from these staves? (They are 79" long, 4"wide x 3" deep.)
Thanks for any advice,
R.D.
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Hopefully you have painted the end 3 or 4 inches of the staves - just painting the exposed timber on the end isn't enough - but sealing with PVA is fine. I know some of the guys on PA tie their staves down to prevent movement while they season, equally some don't - I don't but then neither do I object to straightening the wood, since most of my timber is bent to some extent before I cut it - finding arrow straight logs ain't easy, as you already know ;) If you're going for recurves, then pre-bending green wood is easier than bending it once its dry but that would require you to rough out the stave straight away - not a big deal, and will dramatically reduce its drying time. I'd have thought that staves that size will pretty much give you any draw weight you want.
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Thanks for that stuckinthemud, 8) I'd only painted an inch or so on the ends, just painted some more on.
I'll probably rough them down some over the weekend.
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Yeah you can make any weight you want out of those. As a rough idea, my last heavy ash bow was 145-150lb ish, and it's 40mm x 30mm.
Start extra long, then knock it down to about 77" maximum after brace height. Keep the belly roundish (unless the wood is telling you to square it off by taking a bit of set) and round the edges of the back quite a lot. Good luck :D
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OK, thank you WillS. 8)
R.D.
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I'm going to have a go at making some arrow shafts out of the offcuts from the belly and sides of the stave, should make some nice arrows eh?
R.D.
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Definitely!
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Thanks for the confirmation WillS, be cool to have bow and arrows from the same tree. :D
R.D.
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I sold a combo like that recently, a 125lb ash self bow and a set of 6 arrows I made from the same tree. Something kinda cool about the idea, I thought! Glad I'm not the only one!
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That is cool 8), nice work.
I'm glad that idea popped into my head before I start hacking away, I got plenty of time to plan out and remove adequate sections of wood for arrows, should be fun seeing what I can get. :)
R.D.
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I sold a combo like that recently, a 125lb ash self bow and a set of 6 arrows I made from the same tree. Something kinda cool about the idea, I thought! Glad I'm not the only one!
Hi Will
Your not the only one.
Check your subject 'Arrow Weight' 23th August 2013!
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This is a good thread. I'll look forward to seeing what you get out of those staves Ruddy. I would be really nervous about reducing the sapwood on that Yew stave you'll need to be super careful working around those pins right?
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Also anybody got any good tips for removing the Bark from green Hazel? ???
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In summer and spring bark from hazel can be peeled by hand. Now you need a draw knife or regular moderately sharp knife.
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a little bit of steam or really hot water works wonders on hazel bark
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Just leave it on. No reason to remove it. The barks helps it season slower without cracking or checking.
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When seasoning a stave? Yes, totally, leave it on!
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Cheers fellas. Thanks for the steam/hot water tip. I tried that on elm once with good results I bet it does wonders on thin barked Hazel! :)
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I meant leave it on forever. No reason to take it off, even on a finished bow.
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When we were kids we used to make bows out of a species of Hazel we have here called Beaked Hazel, it's not much more than a shrub. I made one like what we used to make back then several years ago and left the bark on, it's stuck on real good. The bow I made was maybe a bit over 1" in diameter but pulled 40# which is strong enough to hunt Deer
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Del leaves the bark on his hazel bows, he says sometimes it stays, sometimes it bursts off but if it comes off on its own then at least it saves him the hassle of peeling it. I like to pattern the cambium on my hazel bows - looks like camo but takes forever going slow with a shallow gouge
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I am all over that leaving the Bark on concept! I'm afraid I tend to be impatient and lazy and often damage the back when removing the bark. And hey if it's good enough for Del the cat and Marc St Louis then its definitely alright with me! :)