Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: Ruddy Darter on November 03, 2016, 05:26:27 am
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I know this is probably an old question but I can't seem to find the answer on search concerning bow nock size. (130-140 draw weight sort of margin, I wondered if there was an ideal, and say with 5mm sapwood)
How large should the drilled hole be width at neck and depth?
I aim to grind down a drill hole bit (thanks Del's blog) and waiting to hear on some horn.
At the moment I have a couple of pairs of predrilled buffalo nocks and are 13mm at the mouth and 40mm deep, would these be o.k to use? For future reference really, I'm a long way off needing to use any at present.
Thanks for any help,
R.D.
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Sidenocks, sidenocks, sidenocks, sidenocks, sidenocks!!
If you're gonna make a medieval bow, do it properly!
12mm at the opening, and I usually drill them about 1.5" deep, and use 2" long horn tips.
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.. Who's there?... Sounded like the start of a knock knock joke with a new angle ;D... Ohhhhh.k...i might give them a go... No promise mind. :D,
R.D.
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You bloody better promise young man! Too many people ignoring them these days, for no reason. It's not a medieval bow if it's got Victorian nocks on. Humph.
Rant over. ;D
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I was thinking about just having simple overlays... :D
If I can't get cow horn tips I might get white buffalo tips which I really like the look of, I know cow horn is stronger but the ones on ebay don't show the base and can't see if they have any separation/delamination going on, would there be strength issues using buffalo horn for side nocks? (Hope that's not a silly question but I thought I'd ask.)
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If you make them right you should be fine. What a lot of people do is make basic Victorian (front-groove) nocks, and simply turn them sideways, and use them with a normal sized string loop and they look bizarre and can also fail. The string groove needs to be shaped quite carefully (and is very different to the Victorian style) and the string loop needs be really tiny. If both of those elements are ok, then it doesn't matter what horn you use.
With large loops that hang down from the nock, buffalo horn has a tendency to split, whereas cow horn doesn't.
Here's a quick rough sketch of how the groove should be made (if you use a knife it happens almost automatically, whereas if you use a tile saw or something you have to really work at getting that shape right)
(https://c6.staticflickr.com/6/5527/30754270725_050bc32407_c.jpg)
And here's a nock made in buffalo by a friend of mine entirely by knife, which is (almost) identical to the MR nock and should show you the sort of thing I'm waffling on about.
(https://c5.staticflickr.com/6/5717/30717512076_d90b83c4bb_c.jpg)
I'm probably making it sound more complicated than it is. Give it a try on some scrap horn and see how it turns out.
.....or use front nocks like the Victorians did... >:D
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Can that be made with draw knife?
Reason why people don't usually make them as there are no specific instructions and dimensions for that type of nock. Only guys who use them are seasoned bowyers who make warbows and probably see them in person on historical artifact bows, such as MR bows.
Can they be made on wood, instead of horn?
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There's no specific instructions or dimensions for Victorian nocks either. I think the reason people don't make them is because they don't trust them. You can make huge ugly Victorian nocks, or really dodgy little ones and they'll all still work. If you get sidenocks wrong, they won't work. I think a lot of bowyers give them a try, decide they don't like them and then continue making "warbows" with the wrong type of nock because they're used to them.
Don't forget that every single European bow found before the Victorian period had sidenocks, not just the MR bows. Whether they were in horn or just into the bare wood, they ALL had sidenocks. Even during and past the Victorian period lots of bows had them. No matter how big or small or fancy or plain you make them, if you cut the nock into the front of the horn, you're doing something fundamentally modern.
You can make them out of anything you want.
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By sidenocks you mean a single groove variety or the more common (nowadays) double side groove design? I'm getting a bit confused by terminology here.
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You've either got sidenocks (a single small groove on one side of the bow tip) or a "modern/Victorian nock" which is the entire face of the nock cut into a long groove going from side to side like a big smile.
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... every single European bow found before the Victorian period had sidenocks, not just the MR bows. ...
Errrr. Meare heath bow, Holmgaard bow, Otzi's bow etc don't have side nocks.
Del
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Errrrrr which Holmgaard bow? I wasn't aware there was only one ???
I think you'll find they had tied on nocks, as with Otzis bow and the MR elm bow probably. Somewhat irrelevant to this discussion unless you're desperate to pick holes.
You can have the Meare Heath bow if it makes you feel better ;)
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Well I picked up a cheap and cheerful bench grinder from screwfix and got two flat wood drill bits...a 16mm & 15mm so all set for grinding them down, I haven't got a Pillar press drill stand for drilling the horn.. hope it's not too tricky free hand with a power drill..(although I see some cheapies for £12 or so quid on Amazon if recommended as essential) . :-\,
R.D.
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I just hold the horn in my left hand and drill in the right. Means you can shift things slightly if it starts going off target.
Use Dave Pim's tutorial on the EWBS main site to get the right piked shape of the drill bit.
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Thanks WillS, yeah...been having a nose there, Dave makes some nice nocks for sure (and bows), I think I'll start off in a vice though first one... I get nervous 'bout me paws, :D, grinding shouldn't be too difficult...not that I've used one before so slow and steady till I get used to it. Quite impressed with the bench grinder, tidy little packet for £20. :)
R.D.
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You can make some heads now as well then :D
I've been forging Type 16s the past few weeks. You need a grinder for those!
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Nice, they take some doing... I've not really considered the arrow-smithing side of things. It seems a tad too involving for me at present, and probably a craft I'd need to be shown in person. Fire and combustibles and such a totally alien field for me, thoroughly rewarding though, no doubt. 8)
(shame on me, my Great Grandfather was a farrier too :-[)
R.D.
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Errrrrr which Holmgaard bow? I wasn't aware there was only one ???
I think you'll find they had tied on nocks, as with Otzis bow and the MR elm bow probably. Somewhat irrelevant to this discussion unless you're desperate to pick holes.
You can have the Meare Heath bow if it makes you feel better ;)
I have no interest in feeling better or picking holes..
It was you that wrote
"... every single European bow found before the Victorian period had sidenocks, not just the MR bows. ..."
Not me.
If you don't want posts corrected, then proof read what you write, and make sure it is correct.
Tied on nocks etc are still not "sidenocks"
If you meant Warbows... state Warbows... (yes I know it is the warbow forum)... but your statement was incorrect.
This site has a reputation for good advice and accurate information.
Am I not allowed to correct a factual error because you wrote it?
I have never once criticised your posts about arrows because I recognise your expertise and it is not my area of knowledge.
If you don't want to be corrected, don't post incorrect statements.
A simple response of " Sorry I meant Warbows" would have been a suitable response to my post.
Now go and sit on the naughty step and thing about what you wrote.
Del
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Ahhh I missed the insane pedantry and pissing contests of this place. I've been away too long :laugh:
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Got it done, pretty simple and hope I got it even enough.
I thought I'd watch a health and safety YouTube video for bench grinder operation with accident pics through poor use, managed to scare my socks off and wasn't looking forward to using it. (glad I watched it though, not something to be careless with. I doubt I'll use it much but good to know what to look out for).
R.D.
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Take off the bench grinder shrouds, put them on backwards (I know, it sounds stupid), now your wheel direction is reversed, sparks go up/forwards (wear eye protection!) BUT the work cannot 'catch' the wheel and pull you into the machine, nor can it 'catch' and pull down into your femoral artery/jump out of your hands and impale your toes - all it can do is bounce and skip on the wheel. Also, it cannot 'catch' and chip the thing you are grinding, if your doing something delicate like re-grinding a chisel. Some people find the shrouds a PITA and take them off to allow access to the whole of the wheel allowing easy changes of angle of attack, but I would never advocate removing a valuable H+S innovation >:D
By the by, why are you grinding horn? It's super soft and a very course emery cloth, or decent rasp, or even a nice sharp whittling knife (or all of the above) has always worked for me
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I just set those work platforms as close as possible, and ALWAYS rest the work on them. Impossible for the wheel to bite/kick them downwards that way, and sparks flying upwards is always a risk. It is nice having them running backwards for sharpening blades however.
You got the shape spot on, it's that nice piked profile the originals have.
Agree with Stuck about the horn - bit of practice and a sharp knife (kept sharp with the grinder ;) ) gets them shaped and finished beautifully. You can even polish them with a knife which is nice. I've never liked those super shiny, over-polished nocks as they're so un-medieval. A good scrape and a rub of wax and you're good!
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Hi stuckinthemud, WillS, I only use the bench grinder to shape the flat drill bit, I'm not going to shape horn on it at all (it's also advised not to grind soft materials, including soft metals, with these wheels, can clog the wheel and cause other hazards according to the manufacturer.)
I sharpen all my chisels and bladed tools by hand with different grade diamond sharpening stones and would probably only use the grinder for chipped or broken edged tools and then finish with the stones. It's not something I will use often. (Why I bought the cheapest available :D.).
To shape the horn nock I will use knife, rasps, (coping saw works nice to rough shape and take large bits off easily) scrape smooth with Stanley blade and fine sanding cloth, like you advise.
I tested out the shaped drill bit on some wood and works o.k, the hole diameter is bang on 12mm.
(I'm waiting on some horn I've ordered.)
Thanks,
R.D.
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Cracking job, well done!
I found that as soon as I had a bench grinder, I was using it for so much more than I thought I would!
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I pretty much only used my bench grinder for sharpening gouges - I put on some decent honing wheels - and running reversed wheels was pretty much essential but then I discovered the power-file and my grinder never saw the light of day again
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Thank you WillS,
I dare say it's going to come in handy, but after watching that H&S YouTube video ( :o), it's not gonna be the first bit of kit I reach for unless I need to :D, that really stuck in my mind.
Stuckinthemud, the wheels on this grinder are too aggressive for my chisels/gouges, I like to get the edges on mine like a mirror with my diamond stones and water and finish them with a leather strop with some compound rubbed in.
I see a jig attachment you can get special for angled gouges/chisels that looks the business, if I ever get finer grade wheels for this I'd definitely try and get one of those, got a bit used to doing it by hand though and quite enjoy it, gives me a break and some relaxing ponder time. :)
R.D.
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I fitted a ruby grindstone and a rubber wheel to float chrome paste-polish - gives an absolutely outstanding edge - when I was teaching carving I needed to grind and hone blades in a hurry in every class but I have to say that a power file gives an edge as good as a water stone or diamond stone provided you use a gentle touch
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Right, that sounds a good set up. I certainly see the pros if you have to sharpen a lot quickly to a high standard.
Automation always gets me nervous though, I've done myself enough mischief manually, being the clumsy clod I am at times (painful truth), adding machinery I could quite possibly become an extra in one of those H&S videos. :-\ :D
Those powerfiles do look pretty good, when I'm a bit flush I might buy one of those.
R.D.
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I remember seeing that intricate hand carved bow stand you posted on the EWBS forum a few years ago, that was quite a bit of work!
I think the only power tool I own is an electric hand planer, and even that doesn't come out unless I've got a knot-filled log to reduce down a lot. Sod going through knots with an axe!
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The're blinkin' noisy things aren't they, if a power planer is the same thing, I had a borrow of one once and what a mess I had to clear up, spewed shavings everywhere... Don't know if it was just the one I used that's messy. Gets it down quick and even though, got to say.
R.D.
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Yep they're a pain. They turn your workshop into a snowglobe as well.
I'd much rather spend a few hours roughing out a bow with hatchet and drawknife.
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That's about all I'd trust myself with :D, power tools are great but my confidence and competence with them unfortunately isnt :-\
R.D.
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That's about all I'd trust myself with :D, power tools are great but my confidence and competence with them unfortunately isnt :-\
R.D.
It is all in your mind....forget this h/s baloney just use common sense :) Filling your head with horror stories isn't a great idea nor is it very useful....by definition news doesn't happen often. :)
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Yes, you're right I'm sure, it's just a confidence thing.
R.D.
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For sure :)
Good luck with your nocks.