Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: WillS on December 10, 2016, 09:17:07 am
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Finished these up a few days ago for quite an important customer, and I thought they might be of interest.
The Westminster Abbey arrow is 28 7/8" long, barrelled according to Warbow Wales' specifications (11mm at the head, 11.2mm at the breast and 7.5mm at the nock), fletched with goose primaries and the head is one I forged inspired by the Westminster Abbey head.
The Mary Rose arrow is 30" long, tapered from 1/2" at the head to 3/8" at the nock, with the taper starting somewhere around the middle of the shaft. Fletched with swan primaries and fitted with a head I forged based on a Museum of London artefact, but also (to my pleasant surprise) pretty similar to the head on display at Winchester Museum in both dimension and form.
Both arrow shafts are made from hand-planed European aspen, and both feature a 1.5mm slip of cow horn, a beeswax and pine resin verdigris compound and the fletchings on both are bound down with pure silk. Neither arrow shaft is oiled or sealed as there is no evidence of that being done and no need when using aspen, but simply burnished.
(https://c7.staticflickr.com/1/279/31511802406_95948475b0_h.jpg)
(https://c7.staticflickr.com/1/462/31511802646_75e7ae2723_k.jpg)
(https://c7.staticflickr.com/1/24/31511801966_f971fa167b_k.jpg)
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/464/31511802096_b666381719_k.jpg)
(https://c7.staticflickr.com/1/305/31511802366_c0219fae34_k.jpg)
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Very nice work :). The verdigris comound over the binding looks V tidy and effective.
Del
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Very nice work, I'd love to get into forge work but too much else to learn! So, is the verdigris a glue to mount the fletchings or a sort of mastic to smooth over the silk?
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Great arrow-smithing WillS, nice work 8).
(I got some verdigris coloured watercolour paint, a very good colour match to yours, I might cheat some with a p.v.a mix some time :D)
R.D.
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Very nice arrows Will
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Very nice work sir. This is off topic a little, but is tge Westminster arrow on display? I was there a few years ago and don't recall seeing it. Unfortunately, I didn't know about the arrow until after I returned home. Thanks.
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Very nice work, I'd love to get into forge work but too much else to learn! So, is the verdigris a glue to mount the fletchings or a sort of mastic to smooth over the silk?
The compound goes on before the feathers and binding. The fletchings are bound down into the compound, and it's heated gently to flow over the bindings and seal them in. The end result is a smooth hard plastic-like finish and you can't feel the bindings at all.
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Very nice work sir. This is off topic a little, but is tge Westminster arrow on display? I was there a few years ago and don't recall seeing it. Unfortunately, I didn't know about the arrow until after I returned home. Thanks.
It's not on display at the moment but they're setting up a new gallery for the next few years and it will be displayed then.
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Wonderful! I'll have to make it back someday. Thanks for the information.
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Nice work :)
Just wondering why you say that there is no need to seal aspen? I understand if there was no finish on the originals and you are copying them then authenticity is important.
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It's partly that, and partly the fact that aspen is incredibly rot-resistant. That's probably the reason so many of them were used for the arrows stored on ships, despite not necessarily being the best timber for heavy arrows.
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Nice work :)
Just wondering why you say that there is no need to seal aspen?
Probably budget cuts ;) ;) ;)
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I never tire of seeing your arrows. Very nice workmanship. Cheers- Brendan
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It's partly that, and partly the fact that aspen is incredibly rot-resistant. That's probably the reason so many of them were used for the arrows stored on ships, despite not necessarily being the best timber for heavy arrows.
Not to detract from your very nice arrows at all but everything I've read on aspen shows it to have poor resistance to rot and 'bugs' like it. I have no personal experience with it though.
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I thought the same Mikekeswicke, but I read this on wiki, thought I'd post this bit...
'While standing trees sometimes tend to rot from the heart outward, the dry timber weathers very well, becoming silvery-grey and resistant to rotting and warping, and has traditionally been used for rural construction in the northwestern regions of Russia (especially for roofing, in the form of thin slats).'
R.D.
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That's also why it's used around the world now as sauna planking, and why the arrows were in almost perfect condition on the Mary Rose compared to the other wood species.
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Interesting stuff - you live and learn :)
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Nice arrows Will.
Looks like you've got every aspect of both bow and arrow making covered!
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Thank you!
I think I'm getting pretty close with the arrows, but compared to people like Ian, Joe etc I'm not even scraping the surface with the bows! I think I'm focusing on the arrows more because they don't need to bend quite as far :D
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If you're not scraping the surface of your bows how are you tillering them? >:D
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Hello WillS,
these arrows are very nice, congrats! The forged heads are very imppressive, how long did you have to learn the craft to be able to make such nice heads? I find forging very interesting but far from beeing a blacksmith I wonder how you can form the head with the small barbs. Could you tell or show it? I find forged arrowheads so much more authentic than the machined stuff I'm used to :)
Regards,
gian-luca
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Thanks Gian-luca!
I'm slightly hesitant to give away exactly how I make the Type 16s, because it took a lot of trial and error and conversations with people like Hector Cole (who was also very hesitant to give away his trade secrets!) to work out how to do it, but essentially the barbed section is made separately from the socket, and both pieces are attached in the forging process to become one solid head.
There are other methods, for instance rolling the socket and extruding a wide flat spade shape where the point would normally be, then splitting it down the middle and folding it back on itself to make two barbs, but the original technique as shown in numerous x-rays of extant heads show that the two-piece method is the historically correct one.
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Nice work Will, Arrows are almost as important as the bow.
I am curious about your claims for aspen's rot resistance. I thought that the aspen used in europe for outdoor use has been heat treated to a point that it doesn't reuptake moisture. Aspens in other part of the world seem to have low rot resistance.
An interesting side effect of heat treating aspen is an unusual degree of improvement stiffness
See http://ww----w.wood-database.com/european-aspen/
Could the Mary Rose arrows have been treated somehow?
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Well all I can say is that it's fairly well known amongst users of aspen arrows here, and all the ones I've left outside in very wet conditions for weeks or months are perfectly good to shoot afterwards, with no sign of rot whatsoever.
I spoke to a builder of saunas locally to me a while ago and he maintained that the aspen they ship in from Sweden for the planks isn't heat treated at all, just sawn and shipped.
P.S. I'd like to argue that arrows are more important than the bow - you can't do any damage without them ;)
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I certainly don't think the MR arrows were treated by the way - they weren't planning on leaving them under water for 500 years ;) Why go to extra effort to make an arrow rot resistant?
As Ruddy posted above, the dry timber is highly resistant to rot which is why it's used for roofing in places like Russia.
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Great looking arrows! I love the historical accuracy of them.
I have to ask. Why the silk binding? I can't imagine that is what they would have been using. Not a complaint, just curious.
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Hello Will,
thanks a lot, that you give away your "trade secrets", that's very generous. I remember that in the book "The Great Warbow" there are some photographs were the method you mentioned ist shown. I think it's Simon Stanely forging a big barbed arrowhead. Very interesting.
Thanks again and regards,
gian-luca
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Great looking arrows! I love the historical accuracy of them.
I have to ask. Why the silk binding? I can't imagine that is what they would have been using. Not a complaint, just curious.
It's what they used :)
The MR binding was analysed revealing it, plus there are historical documents of silk being ordered for arrows.
It's thin, light and incredibly strong - not sure why it wouldn't have been used!
As an aside, there's not a scrap of official evidence that suggests linen was ever used for binding, and yet it's more popular amongst fletchers / reenactors today!
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Great looking arrows! I love the historical accuracy of them.
I have to ask. Why the silk binding? I can't imagine that is what they would have been using. Not a complaint, just curious.
It's what they used :)
The MR binding was analysed revealing it, plus there are historical documents of silk being ordered for arrows.
It's thin, light and incredibly strong - not sure why it wouldn't have been used!
As an aside, there's not a scrap of official evidence that suggests linen was ever used for binding, and yet it's more popular amongst fletchers / reenactors today!
I find the use of silk to be surprising too. If that's what they used then that's what they used. But if you think about it, these are one use items, why use the best materials?
I'm sure money ruled the old world just as it rules this one and silk had to be way more expensive than linen, or was it? Maybe China had cheap labour then too. But seriously, when you are launching thousands of arrows at the enemy is silk binding going to make that much difference? Like you said, that's what they used, a "why" would be interesting.
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Arrows were expensive to make no matter what part of them you're making. The heads were expensive, the shafts were expensive, the compound and binding was expensive.
We've gone way past the Hollywood myth where archers just launched them by the thousands into the air hoping they'd hit something. Targets were most likely picked, and shot carefully. Arrows are far too expensive to waste by hoping they hit their mark, and no period artwork shows any great volleys of arrows - they do however show flat shooting at individual soldiers.
Don't forget that silk was being produced in Europe by the middle ages, not just China. Production had moved from China by the 2nd century. Green silk is mentioned as arrow binding material in a poem by Iolo Goch in the 1300s, Henry V ordered it's use in the 15th Century and it was found on the MR arrows from the 16th century.
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I noticed that your goose fletchings look much thicker than your swan fletching. I have handled only turkey, and as someone who intends to make many more arrows, this is something I am trying to understand. Turkey always felt flimsy and thin to me (and these are the specially prepared ones - 3Rivers - for fletching). Based on images I have seen, I would suspect that goose feathers would hold up better. Is that borne out by your experience? Also, when ordering them (I suspect my sources will be more limited in the US than where you are), what length are you looking for in the overall feather to get something serviceable when cut down?
Thanks!
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I'm not sure arrows were single use, I'm sure that battlefields were picked clean of everything of value, archers would certainly retrieve arrows as soon as they could, especially while on campaign when resupply couldn't be guaranteed?
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I noticed that your goose fletchings look much thicker than your swan fletching. I have handled only turkey, and as someone who intends to make many more arrows, this is something I am trying to understand. Turkey always felt flimsy and thin to me (and these are the specially prepared ones - 3Rivers - for fletching). Based on images I have seen, I would suspect that goose feathers would hold up better. Is that borne out by your experience? Also, when ordering them (I suspect my sources will be more limited in the US than where you are), what length are you looking for in the overall feather to get something serviceable when cut down?
Thanks!
Must be the photo! The swan is actually quite a bit thicker than goose. Turkey is quite thin, and I try to avoid it if possible. The advantage of turkey feathers is that they're usually a good 9-11" long which can be tricky to find with goose feathers. Swan feathers are quite often around 10" long, so they suit longer fletchings better.
I don't buy feathers, I pick them up during the molting season but just order whatever length you need I guess? Most turkey fletchings come at around 9-11" which is plenty long enough for whatever you want to make.
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I'm not sure arrows were single use, I'm sure that battlefields were picked clean of everything of value, archers would certainly retrieve arrows as soon as they could, especially while on campaign when resupply couldn't be guaranteed?
Agreed. There's no evidence of arrows being reused other than theories based on the two peak average lengths of the MR arrows (the shorter perhaps being repaired/re-headed longer ones) and the fact that the Westminster Abbey head doesn't fit the shaft properly so could have been for a slightly larger shoulder but numerous repairs have brought the head further down the shaft taper.
Theories aside, it's a fact that arrows were expensive. You don't waste expensive things, whether that's chucking them in the air hopefully, or leaving them when they're available to collect.