Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Primitive Skills => Topic started by: trail walker on January 05, 2017, 11:15:39 pm
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So i walked out to check the critters yesterday and noticed one of our cows that was expecting a calf did not come in to eat. long story short i found her keeled over dead in a ditch :P. her calf survived and was hiding under a tree. The cow was a brown Swiss jersey cross ruffly 1800 pounds, her hide is a beautiful grey peach cooler and me and my dad want to brain tan the hide with the hair on. as of right now we have the hide skinned off the cow and in a freezer(out side >:D) how would you guys proceed with a big hide like this? All my experience so far is with a small hide off a very small 2 point deer.
thanks,
trail walker
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Trail Walker,
You will need to double check this info. I have a cow hide in the freezer, but haven't been able to get the gumption up high enough to work on it. If I remember correctly, you will need to stretch it, flesh it, and then salt it to set the hair, then work the brains in (you did keep the brains? Every critter has enough brains to tan his/her own hide) then you will have to "stump" it to work the brains well into the hide. I would suggest a hide tanning party to get enough help. Going at it full time, you should be able to get it done in a few days - it is a lot of work. I would suggest a very large frame of 4x4's to stretch the hide, and use a sledge hammer for the stumping. Of course, you will have to thaw it out to start working on it :). And cook(boil) the brains outside away from the house. When you get done, I will be looking for some experienced brain tanner for my cow hide, I got bad shoulders :). Hope the calf makes it, it is a bummer to lose both. Had that happen on my watch years ago. Like I said double check my info.
Hawkdancer (Jerry Mc Connell)
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I'm no expert brain tanner at all matter a fact I'm working on dehairing all my deer hides right now for brain tanning. But what I do know is that salt does not set the hair it preserves the hide after fleshing if your going to dry store the hide. You need to pickle this hide to truly keep the hair on. I've spoke with Pappy about brain tanning and he told me you have to force the brains through the hide several times to get it tanned. My question is can the brains penatrate the hide with the hair on. Cow hair and hides are thick! Good luck I'm curious how it will turn out
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The experience I have with larger hides is that like said they are a lot of work.I've only done 2 buffalo hides brain tanning.Mostly all deer.Your 1800 pound animal would be thicker yet than the 30 square foot buffalo I've done.Really thick stuff like that I turn into rawhide and use it like that.A 2"X8" frame of clean pine will secure it without much bowing while it dries,with at least a 6' by 7' inside dimension.It would break a 2" by 4" frame drying down.You can try to brain tan it but I'm afraid it will be pretty stiff yet.If I was to try I would l grind the brains into the hide with a smooth stone on the flesh side.This process will take days to do to get proper penetration.Another huge obstacle is roping it dry.It'll weigh a lot.I'm not saying it is'nt possible but it'll be a heck of a lot of work.If your a novice at it.It will overwhelm a person.
In the past really thick hides like that were made into parafleches/boxes/and even war shields.
I had a farmer here that wanted to have one of his cattle hides tanned.I sent him to a tannery I knew of in this state that did it for him for 10.00 a square foot.Very reasonable nowadays.It's in his house now on the floor.He had to wait 6 months.He's happy.
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I am all for saving a buck and doing hides myself.
Mostly small stuff with mixed results.
Like Beadman I may defer to a pro company on a hide like the cow.
Because it seems to have more meaning to you with the hair being
in tact etc. It would be a shame to do all the work and not have it
work out the way you want. But if you decide to tackle it---
You are in great company with the folks here that will give you
priceless help and advice.
Zuma
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Trail walker, first off I have no experience with cowhides, I have done quite a few braintanned deer hides and have done a lot of reading on different hides and such, Domestic animals such as cattle ,horses and such have short type fibers and don't stretch as easily as wild animals , just about everyone I have ever talked to or read has said cattle hides are extremely hard to braintan and and most recommended bark tan for cattle, I know this is not what you wanted to hear but just my .02 worth. Either way let us know how it went and best of luck with your endeavor. Bob
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Trail Walker sorry about your cow but I'm sure you know it's part of the game. I never tanned a cow hide but when I was younger we butchered a couple Holsteins that had calving problems. My brother and I scraped the hides power washed them both leather and hair side. If I remember right we just nailed and stretched the hide to our wooden wall in the barn. I don't remember if we even salted for sure but we probably did. They stayed nailed to the wall for many years even did a calf. They always looked kinda cool pinned to the wall like a coon hide. They had to be there for at least 10 years and the hair stayed in great, of course they were as stiff as a board and in the barn not thinking my wife would let me put it in the house.lol. I'd probably take Ed's advice and haul to a tannery. But if you have a wooden wall in a clean dry place it works pretty good for a stretcher for rawhide.
Bjrogg
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Trail walker,
Might try looking online for info on brain tanning buffalo hides with the hair on. The Native American women made mankind beau coup buffalo robes and rugs. I think I will save my pennies and shoulders and find a commercial tanner to do my cow hide, but the hair is already off. If the hide is fresh frozen, and not tainted, you can probably proceed, I only found one mention of pickling hides, using vinegar as the agent. Couple gallons should be enough. Good luck and let us know how it comes out
Hawkdancer
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A recommendation that I would suggest, after you have fleshed it, you need to thin it a lot. You almost need to get to the point where you can see hair follicles from the flesh side. Remember that you are only braining it from the flesh side, so you don't have brain penetration from the hair side at all. With bison, if you are doing a robe thinning is essential also, but the fiber qualities of bison and cattle are completely different. The cattle fiber structure is really tight, compared to bison. In fact, bison are much more likely to start pulling apart if you over work the hide. Almost all of the old-time tanning recipes from American Indian women list grease or bone marrow grease as an ingredient. Neetsfoot oil is bone marrow grease, just as Knox gelatin is hide glue. Those old women were mixing the bone marrow grease with the brains to make their tanning solutions. I will tell you, you have your work cut out for you. Curtis
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The 2 buffalo I did were a lot of work and did come out soft and I still have them.Only measuring 30 square foot apiece.The fiber structure is different on cattle like said.Horses too.I've tried them.It is tighter.I had access to a rendering plant near me and knew the workers there so I'm speaking from hand on experience.There are all kinds of possibilities and projects yet using hair on rawhide if you are'nt completely set on having a tanned robe.
The only way to get a good stretch on that hide is to lace it into a sturdy 2"by8" frame.Like said inside dimensions 6'by7' and it will still fill that area to the hilt.1800 pound animal is big.That's bull buffalo size.Over 40 square foot.War shields were made from the forehead and shoulder plates on those guys.I steam heat shrunk some once to 1/2" thick dried rawhide.
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Ed I love your wealth for knowledge about hides. I just kinda play around with them, you literally take the buffalo by the horns and tan his hide.lol. I've always loved hides they are a lot of very unglamorous work but just something that draws my senses to the smell, feel, texture and look of hides tanned or raw, fur or hair on or off. Always miss them when my fur collection is gone. Thanks for sharing your knowledge
Bjrogg
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bjrogg....Sorry to sound so stern and I'm sure there are others with a lot of experience too but it's a big big project trailwalker is contemplating but if done a lifetime achievement and keep sake for sure.Back in the 80's and 90's I used to tan pretty much year round with a wood stove heated basement in the farm house in the winter time.Personally anymore I won't brain tan hides bigger than elk at my age it's that demanding but there's something about brain tan and hide work in general that draws me to it.
I've found out and always said there must be 30 different ways to tan hides.Each person does which works for them.References from books and then trial and error to satisfaction.Definitely not an overnight master status thing with a little success in the beginning.Like a lot of things.A big hide from an 1800 pound animal will take good sharp tools to make it easier and still it will take a long time to do properly.To clean it up properly before putting it into a frame I would take it to a car wash.I took a walk through of a tannery here once.The tub soaking vats/tumbling drums/sanders/and drying racks were immense to save man power.Different types of tumblers for different purposes too.Too bad the business is too far away from me.I would love to work there during retirement.
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Ed i understand the enormous amount of Very unglamorous work envolved in preparing and tanning hides. I guess that's a very big reason I've just air dried smaller fur barriers. I very much respect the work and experience you have with hides and thank you for sharing that information. I still have my buck hide in the freezer along with his brain and I'm trying to get the time and motivation to tackle this job. When I do I'll probably be asking you lots of questions.
Bjrogg
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I did a build-a-long called [big fella into buckskin/smoking/lots of pics under Beadman] in the primitive skills thread.Think it's at page 5 by now.Mind you it's just my way but a tried and true common method.
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Ya I get ask all the time , people wanting to brain tan a deer hide, I love showing people but most of the time by the time they get done with 1 , that's it. Lots of work and working out side as I do you have to work on the hide and weathers schedules not yours, some just can't understand that. I have done a couple of Cow Elk hides and that is big enough for me. A cow I wouldn't want to attempt especially brain tanning with the hair on. Good luck with you project trail walker. ;) BJ I have done the same thing with deer hides years ago and they lasted very good, only problem is if they aren't in a controlled environment they will come and go with moisture as any raw hide will, and that is what you really have is hair on rawhide. Salting them makes that even worse . Pappy
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Yes Ed, I followed your tan along with from beginning to end. I can see you know what your doing and have been doing it for along time. I also really like the projects I've seen made from them by you and several others on this site.
Pappy I understand that what I'm making is hair on rawhide. I have tanned a few fox myself with mixed results. I have put up thousands of muskrat hides and hundreds of fox, coyote, raccoon and mink. I have taken some to a taxidermist buddy of mine skinned, scraped and ready for him to chemically tan. I get them back from him fresh out of the vat. I usually just make wall hangers out of them so I put them back on stretchers to shape the heads and ears. Sometimes I break the hide lower to soften them but really for hanging case skinned on the wall I at least want the head kinda stiff. I'm getting to the point I'm really thinking about making stuff from them now and probably going to take the next step soon. I really do appreciate the info passed on here and understand the work and mess involved that's a big reason I respect what you guys have done. Thanks again for sharing your knowledge
Bjrogg
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bjrogg...Fox hats are cool!!!!Warm flannel lined.Sounds like you got a good handle on what you want to do.Same with me about acquiring hides from coon hunting.Like you say hundreds and probably thousands.Proper fur handling to send to Canada takes experience to make them look the best they can.Sewing holes properly too.Mostly fox though.Worth the effort if the numbers are big enough.Made my own cob grit tumbler too for the grease.
Trailwalker....Good luck with your cow hide.
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hey everyone thanks for all the awesome advice. I think that brain tanning may be a little ambitious at this point i think we are going to try to get our hands on some tannin and try using that. Any way, we finally got to the hide here are some update pics. It is about 50 square feet and like a 1/2 in thick at the neck. what is your guys thoughts about jumping on the hide like a trampoline to soften it?
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Good job of lacing the hide in.Here's what I did with a cow hide someone gave me.I think only 30 square feet worth though.Made it into rawhide.Used some of it to make 3 cat quivers with it for different people.Hip and back pocket quivers too.Other things too out of it too many to mention.
(http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad41/Beadman1/DSCN0884_zpszgi2v1y1.jpeg) (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/Beadman1/media/DSCN0884_zpszgi2v1y1.jpeg.html)
(http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad41/Beadman1/DSCN1102_zpshkaed0qk.jpg) (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/Beadman1/media/DSCN1102_zpshkaed0qk.jpg.html)
(http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad41/Beadman1/DSCN0905_zpsdwxvbfvl.jpg) (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/Beadman1/media/DSCN0905_zpsdwxvbfvl.jpg.html)
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I did a build-a-long called [big fella into buckskin/smoking/lots of pics under Beadman] in the primitive skills thread.Think it's at page 5 by now.Mind you it's just my way but a tried and true common method.
it should be pinned on top as permanent interesting thread
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Trailwalker, that's looking real good so far. I love how you got the youngster right in there getting his hands dirty.
Ed awesome job as always
GlisGlis I agree. That was definitely one of my all time favorite posts on this site
Bjrogg
PS hopefully I'll finish my tanning job today or at least get it real close. Did two batches Lutan.
6 mink, 1 beaver, 1 coon, 5 red fox, 19 muskrats. I'll post when I get them all cleaned up and completely finished
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Jeepers bjrogg your gonna get a bunch of projects out of all of those.I always liked my muskrat mounty style hat I made long ago.Lutan????Is that the method or the chemical?
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Ed I've always wanted one of those hats too. You made one yourself? I'd love to know how.
I might have spelled it wrong but lutan was a kit tan I bought from one of the taxidermy supplies companies. It is a Chemical tan kit and after working hide it's nice a soft. I think everything is going to come out great. Probably going to have to rehydrate beaver and stretch it after I'm done thinning it just a little more.
Bjrogg
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bjrogg....First you take a string.Put it around your head just in the crotch of your ears and an inch above your eye brows.Put the string to the tension you like.Now take your fur and cut two 4" wide by half the length of your string.A little over to allow for both seams.You'll have to allow for flannel padding inside too so maybe the string should fit a little loose.Not tight at all.
Now cut a kinda egg shape circle from a hide for the top the same circumference length as your two strips.Look at a hat that fits you right and copy that.Hope I said that understanding enough.Now sew that round piece to your two 4" bands.You should end up with a 4" deep bowl kinds.A muskrat of good size fits perfect for that round top.You'll probably only get one strip per muskrat.You can sew on ear flaps connected to a band that goes around the back of the hat to the bottom edge of your hat.It might take 2 more rats to get the ear flaps and back piece.So a total of 5 rats to make a mounty style hat usually depending on the size of the rats.
Put some flannel interior into it and you've got a very very warm hat.You'll have to place the grain of the fur accordingly to give it a nice look.Usually the grain of the hair is flowing backwards.
It takes a while with a bit of hand sewing.About 4 hours worth I'd say.I use artificial sinew half thickness with a glovers needle.Whip stitch it around with a shade under 1/4" spaced stitching.
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Thanks Ed you make it sound easy lol. Sometimes I wish my wife sewed so I could just prepare the hide and she could sew them but if there's any buttons missing I'm the one who has to sew them on lol. I'm going to give it a whirl when I catch up on projects. Thanks again. I would like to have a good book about making things from tanned hides.
Bjrogg
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If anybody has some brains I'll be glad to trade for some.
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lol. Not sure if anybody's got any brains on here Eddie. Either that they don't want to give them up yet.
Other than the ones I got in my head, the only ones I have are from my primitive bow buck and I still plan on tanning his hide with them.
Bjrogg
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I've used farm eggs without any noticeable difference.
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Here's what I've been doing today. Breaking hides.
First group 2 mink for quivers, one beaver I laid on my desk to put my stuff on.
Second group 5 red fox and a coon.
Bjrogg
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Red Fox
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4 more mink and 19 muskrats
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Really nice bunch of fur there.If you want to tan all of them.I'd divide up the numbers to be able to handle all of it.To tan them all at once will be a bit overwhelming.You've got a bunch there.That's a lot of fleshing and tanning I'd say for a while.You need willow hoops to lace your beaver in to hang in your man cave maybe.Takes about a 13' willow for a blanket beaver to go into.Otherwise they make good hats too.Those fox are nice too.I see a lined quiver there maybe.Maybe not....or another hat.
After tanning all of them you'll have the routine down I'd say....lol.
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Two thumbs up BJ ! Bob
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Thanks Bob, they turned out nice.
Ed, these are all tanned and broke now. I just hung the rats back on stretchers for a place to temporarily store them. I did them in 2 groups or batches. They were already skinned, scraped and air dried on stretchers. First I put them in relaxer degreaser to rehydrate and get grease out of hides. I left them in relaxing bath all day. Some of these hides where air dried over a year ago. They still weren't completely relaxed so I put so degreaser relaxer in the pickle bath to. The pickle bath was salt and acid. You bring ph down to range of 1-2. I removed the hides after two days and scrapped them some more then put them back in pickle bath. Hides need to stay in this bath for minimum of 72 hours and ph maintained. I left them in 4 days, that worked out for me time wise. Then rinse several times and a neutralizing bath in baking soda for 30 minutes. Next rinse again then hang for 30 minutes to drip dry. Next lutan and salt bath. This needs a ph of 3.5 and for smaller hides 12-24 hours no longer than 48 for any hides. Next rinse completely and drip dry for 30 minutes. Then rub in the softening oils. The stuff I used was concentrated and you mixed one part oil two part warm water. I rubbed it into leather turned hide fur out rolled them up in rags and put them in plastic bag over night. Next I put them on stretchers and put belly boards in to really stretch them. As they dried in took them off stretchers and worked them stretching them in all directions. I also turned them fur in and put a couple hand fulls of fine sawdust mixed with minerals spirts inside hide and as I worked leather side rubbed sawdust into fur to get tanning oils out. Then I turned back fur out and gave them several quick snaps to get dust out. Then I shaped ears the way I wanted them on fox. I like to leave face a little stiff so it holds shape better hanging on wall. It can be softened later if that's what is wanted.
Ed you are right. This needs to be done in batches. Even with skinning and scrapping done this is still a pretty big job. Of course the big job is the End steps of breaking and cleaning the hides. Especially that beaver. I've got him thinned pretty good now he really needs to be rehydrated and put back on stretcher. I hope I didn't highjack this post probably should have started another.
Bjrogg
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its all good bjrogg keep posting! i love reading your stuff. I'm only 17 you guys are taking years off my learning curve. : ;)
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Thanks trail walker, you guys did a good job stretching and scraping that cow hide. big job and more than I could probably handle by myself. I've never did more with cow hide than what you just did. Good to see some ambitious young fellers out there. I'm guessing if you want to tan that you could probably take a sander with some 60 grit paper to that hide after it dries before you even pickle it. I'm thinking it would help the pickle and tanning baths work better and really help your stretch and softening later. I'm not 100% sure on that though, I'm sure Ed could tell you. I think you probably could walk around if not jump on it like trampoline if it doesn't rip lacing out of hide after its tanned for softening. It will rip easier when its stiff and rawhide yet. If you can get a good tight stretch it really helps for softening. Softening the hide has to be done at just the right time and usually the whole hide isn't ready at same time. It needs to stretch and turn white. If hide is to wet it wont turn white, and if its to dry it wont stretch. Wish you best of luck and look forward to seeing what you end up with.
bjrogg
PS what's your old man think of your project? He give you any help or incouragement? You can tell him I said he's raising some fine boys. Hope your getting your choirs done.lol.
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bjrogg...Jeepers....Yesereee you got it all done already.Should of seen that your muskrat were turned inside out on your stretchers....lol.You did it right that's for sure.Measuring PH etc.Deliming etc.too.You got your feet good and wet on knowledge with this project of chemical tanning that's for sure.Now you can reap the rewards.
trailwalker...To thin a hide like that is chore by hand.60 grit won't remove thickness fast enough really at a hard rawhide stage.I used to take big hides like that to a cattle kill plant where I knew the fellas working there that had their own fleshing machine.It could be set to flesh and thin it all the same thickness while it was green yet though.Personally if the cow is sort of a sentimental possession and you want the hair on I'd send it to a tannery.Otherwise dehair it into projects you can use as rawhide and she can live on that way too with her usefullness.Anyway it's good to see others interested in these type things.
Years ago I had a taxidermy license.Just a state one for local fauna.Interstate and migratory animals and birds it takes a federal license.A lot more expensive.
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Thanks Ed, I'm glad I'm done with them. I still got my buck hide to do yet.
Man they gotta have a expensive license for everything nowadays.
Might sound crazy but I wonder if trail walker could use one of those sanders for wood floor? Probably be hard to keep even thickness.
Bjrogg
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You should brain tan that buck and smoke it.You seem to have plenty of hair on hides now.
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That really is my plan Ed. I've always wanted to try it. I saved his brains, I'm thinking no better candidate than my first Primitive bow kill. I need to figure out how to get it worked into my schedule.
Bjrogg
PS know any good books with patterns for making thing from hides?
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Bj, If you are planning on making clothing, just take some old clothes that fit well and take them apart at the seams, there's your patterns
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Trail walker I just reread beginning of this thread. I see your dad has been involved in this project from start. You can tell him I said not only is he raising some good young men, but he's gotta be I pretty good dad to get in there scrapping that hide with you guys. A whole lotta work but a nice family project. Feels good to see that.
Bjrogg
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Thanks Aaron, good idea. Some of the things I have in mind I don't have to take apart though. I will keep that in mind though and I guess I could experiment with paper or rags and try fitting together stuff from them first.
Bjrogg
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Bjrogg....Well you know hats,possible bags,quivers,mittens,maybe even a vest right off the bat don't require a pattern really.Mostly seeing something like I want to make and then going from there for a custom fit.Sketch books from mountain man attire type book.Mystic warriors of the Plains book is a good one.That book might be rather expensive though.Really it's cool to just make something that suits your needs.I like to make things that are functional myself.Going to a rendezvous can give many ideas.Mountain man buckskinners or bow gathering rendezvous's.Some type of primitive gathering.Best to think it all through before cutting things up.I like to make cardboard patterns first then copy that.
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Thanks Ed, I'd love to attend a rendezvous. So far I've always just done like you said, when I need something I just experiment and make it. Lots of times first one ends up a little crude.lol. I really like functionality too. I am thinking vest and also some mittens and a troopers hat.
Bjrogg
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bjrogg, my dad was a little apprehensive at first (Probably because it was like 5 degrees and we had to skin her) but we wanted to keep the hide(He was a good sport). She was the firs milk cow we bought for a dairy that we ran for 7 years. And to boot her hide is a relay unique color, a peach grey color, i'll haft to get some pics. Any way, he wants to make a pair of chaps with the hair on as well as for memorabilia. He said thanks for the compliment to. He sure tries hard to be a good dad and we all love him. Again Thanks for all the great advice everyone. We will keep updating as we work on it.
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Trailwalker, I meant it from deep in my soul. I can't wait to see those chaps. Your reply is one of if not the best reply I've ever had. Put a big smile on my face. Good Luck tanning that hide. 😊
Bjrogg