Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Shooting and Hunting => Topic started by: DC on January 18, 2017, 12:51:00 pm
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I've seen a few posts where people say, "It goes where I'm looking." I've also read that any stick can make an accurate bow. If we take any bow and put it on a good shooting machine with a "perfect" arrow will it not plunk the arrow in the same hole(or close) time after time? What if the tiller is iffy? I realize that the major part of accuracy is the archer.
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Accuracy, what's that?
(https://memecrunch.com/image/529a736f1605fb210e00000d.jpg?w=384)
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Accuracy comes with consistency and practice. Consistency with your form, your draw, your anchor and your release...and lots of thoughtful shooting. If you find yourself distracted or getting antsy or pissed, put the bow away. Make every shot count. Mindless shooting doesn't breed accuracy. Start at 10 yards and shoot one arrow and retrieve it then shoot again. Don't try to shoot groups. Shoot that one arrow until you are confident at 10 yards then move back 5 yards and repeat.
All bows are accurate if the proper arrow for that bow is shot.
Theoretically, a bow shot with a shooting machine should put the arrow in the same hole in the target barring atmospheric and geological maladies.
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All bows are accurate if the proper arrow for that bow is shot.
Theoretically, a bow shot with a shooting machine should put the arrow in the same hole in the target barring atmospheric and geological maladies.
It's the part I quoted you on that I was curious about. I thought that a bow was a bow but I keep hearing comments that make me wonder if I was misunderstanding something.
Thanks Pat
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Ah yeah, accurate if the proper arrow is shot. What if the arrow spine is way off an the arrow fishtails a lot? Would some randomness from the fishtailing hurt accuracy? Would be interesting to make a test.
Man, I often get annoyed when I shoot. And often there's a strong desire to change things about my form. Maybe that's why I can't hit anything. But I'm still working on my release, which makes it hard to find a perfect spine.
Mindful shooting... focus on the target and in my body? Try to be consistent in form? But maybe not on aiming, except maybe with peripheral (split vision)?
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Without properly spined arrows for the bow and shooter accuracy is impossible. All the bow does is push the arrow. If the arrow is not spined for the bow and the shooter there is no chance of accuracy.
The arrow is the prime part of the marriage, not the bow.
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I have preached that for years Pat, if the arrow is tuned for the bow even the poorest tilled bow will shoot accurate , it is all about arrow and consistent form. That being said a well built/tillered/ no shock and well balanced bow will make the arrow tuning and consistent form much easier to accomplish so it all kind of goes hand in hand.
Pappy
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So carrying this to the extreme, if I was to mount sights and use a release, theoretically I should be able to shoot as well as a guy or girl with a compound. I guess the over center thing helps a lot too.
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With trad bows it all has to do with properly spined arrows, consistent form, draw, anchor and release. Center shot or not doesn't have anything to do with it. If you have a bow with a 2" wide handle you can shoot it accurately with properly spined arrows and consistent form, draw, anchor and release.
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So maybe I don't suck that much, then? Hahaha. I wonder how did they did this spine thing 500 years ago in Asia. Or the native Americans. Probably a much more frustrating amount of experimentation..
I was getting horrible "groups", maybe 45" wide with a ~25-30# bow, thumb draw. Arrow on right side, arrows going to the right, and nock right. I switched to a ~40# bow, same arrows, they were going straighter and my groups shrank. But still pretty big. Maybe 20-25". But there was one time where I had a pretty small group of 3 arrows and some fliers with the weak bow...
All of this at 18m(20yd).. still very far from pie plate accuracy :\
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"It goes where I'm looking."
For me, some bows I make are more conducive to consistant, accurate shooting. They make it easier for me to maintain good form, which is the main variable after proper spine has been selected. It doesn't take me long to figure out whether a particular bow has it or not. I feel every bow I make has the capability to be a tack driver, some just make me work harder at it.
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I mean, if the arrow is tuned, one should be able to look straight down the shaft and have the arrow go straight, right? (Just something I've been assuming
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Yes if you want to anchor right under you eye. We call that gun barreling or tube shooting, I know some that shoot that way. :)
Pappy
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One thing that helped me a lot. When I started making shoot arrows I just used the one that had the best flight. Pick your quietest, best flight arrow and only use it. It just takes a lot of variables out of the process. Try to get that one to go where your looking, or pointing however you shoot. When you get that one going where it's supposed to, make some more just like it. I'm sold on bare shaft testing, but I realize how difficult it is until you develop consistency.
Bjrogg
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Center shot or not doesn't have anything to do with it. If you have a bow with a 2" wide handle you can shoot it accurately with properly spined arrows and consistent form, draw, anchor and release.
Pat, would you care to say whether you find it easier (or not), to find the properly spined arrow for the centershot over the 2"wide?
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For sure easier for a center shot or nearer center shot bow to find the right arrow, not speaking for Pat but for myself. ;)
Pappy
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A bow cut closer to center will be much more forgiving in spine which equates to accuracy in regards to the shooters down falls. When a bow is cut closer to center you can over draw and short draw an inch and still get great flight. When a bow is cut, for example, 1" off center it is true that a matched arrow will fly just as accurately, if ALL things are perfect in the shot sequence. Short draw it 1" and the arrows slams off the riser and wags like a dogs tail. Basically, if you aren't a pro shooter, closer to center will always be better and more accurate and forgiving.
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I find that a shallow handle or bend in handle bow ,, shoots like it is cut close to center,, even if the handle is a bit wide,, the arrow does not have to go around much handle,, and I think that helps the paradox,, one bow I am shooting now the handle is about 3/4 deep, 1 1/4 wide,,, and the string lays a little to the arrow side,, the handle is wide 1 1/4,,, its shoots to same spot as my bows with narrow deep handle,( really a little more to the right) or more like center shot,, the guy making the bow has to keep these things in mind, and make it where it shoots the most forgiving,, a bow that is set up right will shoot a wider range of spine arrows as stated above,,, and is more forgiving on the draw length,, the key to this,,,, is the guy making or setting up the bow has to be able to shoot well enough to tell the difference,,, :)
sometimes a bow will shoot smoother with one limb up,, it may not be the limb you intended to be up,, and it may not look like the string is lined up better that way,, but after alot of shooting you realize,,, it just shoots better that way,, so reshape the handle a bit and go with it,,, sometimes you have to have a friend come and shoot the bow just to validate you have not lost your mind,, :)
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is the guy making or setting up the bow has to be able to shoot well enough to tell the difference,,, :)
This is the tough part ;D
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Willie, like others have said, center shot bows are more forgiving as far as spine goes but a typical non-center shot selfbow can be accurate with properly spined arrows. I've never owned a center shot bow. I have 2 glass longbows that are close but not center shot.
Most folks think the bow is the primary part of the set up but any bow will shoot an arrow that is properly spined for it but not just any arrow will shoot from any bow. IMO the arrow is the most important part of the set. Learn to build proper arrows and you will find your accuracy.
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Pat B,, you are right about that arrow,,,,
I have alot of arrows,, when I am shooting a bow, I might shoot 5 different arrows at first,,
well it becomes obvious quickly which ones are shooting the best, and there is usually one,, that will stand out,,
I will use that for my hunting set up,, even if it does not seem to fit a chart on what should shoot out of that bow,, I go with what is working,, or hitting most consistantly,,
when I have been praciticing alot,, I can shoot a wider range of spine arrows, my release is better,,, when I have not been practicing,, seems like I cant find that arrow that was shooting so great,, :)
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IMO the arrow is the most important part of the set. Learn to build proper arrows and you will find your accuracy.
I buy that.
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Right Pat, there is just nothing like a well tuned arrow. A bow can be so so but if the arrow is right it will hit where you point it. Now pointing it where you want to hit may be a problem. ;) ;D ;D ;D I use to do a lot of stump shooting with my long time Friend Ronnie Poston, I would make a bad shot and miss my mark sometimes, I would look and say man what happened, he would always say heck it hit right where you pointed, and with that I would say ya I know but why was I pointing there. ;) :) We always got a good laugh out of that. ??? Guess you had to be there. ;) ;D ;D
Pappy
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IMO the arrow is the most important part of the set. Learn to build proper arrows and you will find your accuracy.
I buy that.
Yep I agree....
DBar
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I agree with everyone who said that the arrow is more important than the bow. I find that heavy arrows with good big feathers are much more accurate at a fixed distance than lighter arrows. I tested arrows of 580, 740 and 1000 grains, shot at a 6-inch diameter circle at 10 metres (11 yards) from a 76 English longbow of 70 lb at 27, with the following results.
580 grain, 16% FOC, low cut 4 feathers : 35% hits on 6 target at 11 yards.
580 grain, 16% FOC, high cut 5.5 feathers: 50% hits on 6 target at 11 yards.
740 grain, 15% FOC, high cut 5.5 feathers: 70% hits on 6 target at 11 yards.
1000 grain, 16% FOC, high cut 5.5 feathers: 77% hits on 6 target at 11 yards.
All of the arrows had similar weight forward of centre (FOC), flew well on a bare shaft test and were apparently well matched to the bow. A previous comment on this site was that You need to be a good archer to shoot a light arrow. Well, I am obviously not good enough, so I shoot arrows of at least 740 grains.
The arrows were all of 3/8 diameter and 28 in the shaft, of yellow poplar, ash and maple for the lightest to heaviest shafts. In addition to being more forgiving of mistakes by the archer, the heavier shafts also appear to be more forgiving of spine mismatches. Ash shafts anything from 70 to 95 lb spine rating will fly well from this bow, whereas lighter poplar shafts will clack and wobble if the spine is not right.
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I will say,, I have noticed over the years,, the heavier arrows are more forgiving of my release,, or flaw in form,, and could calm a finicky bow down to a good shooter,, but thought it was just me ,,, and my lack of good form,,
for example,, I am shooting a shorter 55 inch bow,, with the light arrows,, I get good flight, but if my release is a bit off, ,the shot is quiet a bit off, with 700 grain arrows, I am much more consistent,,
ok I here the comments now that I am giving up trajectory,,, thats true ,, but at close hunting shots I am shooting 15 yards its not an issue,,
for elk I shoot a heaver bow,, and am good to 40 yards,, so not so much of an issue for me with that set up,, point on is 45 yards,,,
I will say I have shot with guys that were so good,, that the light arrows worked great for them,,,accurate and flat shooting,,,but for me the heavy arrows are a bit more stable,,
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I have found the same and with longer arrows as well.
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ill third or fourth that heavy arrow bit. i switched to aluminum because carbon just wouldnt cut it. wood is heavier still and i shoot better with them over aluminum. kind of reminds me of big slow caliber rifles. sure its slower but nothing is going to stop it from going where its supposed to be going. :-M (forgive my sins speaking of aluminum and carbon) haha
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I think you covered the 3 deadly sins in one sentence,,rifles carbon and aluminum,, hmmmm (-S
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Say ten Hail Fred Bears and you are forgiven my son, lol.
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:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :OK ! Bob
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So regarding the original post first question- in general Yes, a given bow and arrow shot out of a shooting machine will plunk the arrow nearly into the same hole time after time as long as the variables remain relatively constant.
There are two issues at work here however. The shooting machine demonstrates REPEATABILITY. Shooting consistent groups is repeatability is is purely dependent on how well we have consistently stent form - every aspect of it. It's ALL up to the archer. The bow and arrow are stable ( no variation) from shot to shot. This would demonstrate the importance of matched arrows
The second issue is accuracy and despite popular sayings and common belief the bow itself is not accurate. The combination of archer and bow/arrow are, or are not, accurate and I would argue that the vast majority of accuracy originates in the archer
I will acknowledge the some bows "fit" us better and therefore are easier to "aim" by whatever method - instinctive, gap, string walk, intuitive.
All of this of course is "in my humble opinion" but all perfectly accurate and repeatable.
Woodeye
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IMHO....I think Woodeye is on to something here...;) :)
DBar
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I'd have to agree as well, this idea that one bow can be more accurate than another is hogwash, if a bow was so badly made/designed that with all other variables the same it would shoot an arrow differently each time in any meaningful way then I doubt the bow would last more than ten shots before destroying itself. Any advantage one bow has over another in the accuracy department can only be in assisting the archer achieve repeatability and accuracy. Look at fancy modern bows, sights, they help the archer not the bow, stabilizers, help the archer not the bow, clickers, draw stops, fancy rests, fancy rotating grips etc etc, all help the archer, not the bow.
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All bows are inherently accurate. They push the arrow and that is all they do. With a properly spined arrow any bow shoots well. With improperly spined arrow no bow shoots well. I put most of the "inaccuracy" blame on the shooter with an improper arrow in a close second.
You can learn to shoot an improperly spined arrow if you shoot it over and over again and you learn it's trajectory and flight path but by doing so you are digging the hole deeper and deeper. Learn to make arrows that are properly properly spined for your bow and your style of shooting and with a little concentration you can shoot as well as anyone else.
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My main point is that bows are NOT inherently accurate at all. They are inherently repeatable and that accuracy comes from the archer.
Even with a poorly spined arrow the bow will shoot that arrow the same out of a shooting machine
Accuracy variability is rooted in the archer.
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A poorly spined arrow that hits the bow on release will waggle all over the place in a way that seems to have a lot of inherent randomness.
It'd make an interesting experiment to see how much spread certain levels of spine mismatch would cause, by the use of a shooting machine.
Someone here had accuracy problems, but apparently his form was fine and it was the arrows. Though it's likely form most of the time...
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I'm not sure even a shooting machine can be consistent with poorly matched arrows. They tend to be wildcards off the bow, so Lord knows where they may impact the target from shot to shot.
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What PatB said, the archer is usually the main problem , but a bad matched arrow won't shoot the same over and over. Well matched arrow for the bow and shooting style has to be done first before you can even begin to work on form or aiming process no mater how you shoot/aim. :)
Pappy
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sometimes when I make some new arrows,
and I am in practice,,
well a few will hit right on ,, consistantly,,
some might go left or right consistantly,,
even though they are marked same spine and and weight,, and are reasonably straight,,
well wood sometimes only reveals itself in use,,
those ones that hit the mark most and fly down the middle,, are my main arrows,,
I put broadheads on those for hunting,,
or mark the best ones as my go to arrows,,
ok for the bad ones,, i may still shoot them,, for practice,, but I know if it shoots to the right,, its not me or the bow,, and I am not going to shoot that if I am really trying to hit something,, maybe just some up close practice on my release,, :)
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Brad, when similar arrows shoot differently try shooting them with the cock feather in. I've found that sometimes this makes a big difference.
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Same here, Pat. After getting a spine tester I found that spine from side to side can vary a few pounds. I think that's why turning the cock feather makes a difference with some.
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I have found the same on turning the cock feather , especially on cain but after trying that and few other things to try and fine tune them[shorten/tip weight and such] if they still don't hit where I want they don't go in my quiver. They get broken and burnt in the fire. Never seen the need to practice with an arrow that won't hit where you look, if you are doing everything right ,and to hard to try and keep up with the good ones and bad ones. I have seem folks mark arrows # 1 and so on, arrows are a lot of trouble to make for sure but if they aren't #1 they don't get to stay with me. I do enough wrong in my shooting, I have to have the confidence that my arrows /bow are right and it is all up to me. ;) :) :)
Pappy
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good point Pappy, I hear you,, (SH)