Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Kalvek on March 06, 2017, 05:52:40 pm
-
Hi everyone! I'm rather new to bowyery, and have been trying to do things solo, but have been having a bit of a difficult time with figuring things out, worrying if I have everything I need, and just general hesitation in getting started, because I worry about breaking a board I found.
I decided to finally take the plunge and join what I'm assuming is a good community for learning about bowyery and just talking shop in general. For reference as to how into this I've gotten, I went ahead and got the 4 volumes of the Traditional Bowyer's Bible, and the e-book version of Adam Karpowicz's book (the latter for much later in the future, when I want to give a composite bow a try). I've also been trying to follow Sam Harper's build-along on his website, since I don't have too much to invest into tools right now, and I also figured it would be a good starting point for my first bow (minus what he used to back his bow -- the material was just ugly and I'll be using linen instead).
I hope it isn't tacky to ask a question in my first post, but after picking through boards at my local Lowe's and Home Depot, I think I found a board with some promise. It has a few problems that I think are minor, and was wondering if anyone here would mind taking a look at some of the photos I took of it and giving me some advice? Link here: http://imgur.com/a/tl1SO (I hope it's alright to post that link. I didn't see anything saying we couldn't post image gallery links in the rules)
What I noticed in the board that's most concerning is that it has a very slight lateral warp when looking at the face of the board. If you guys can tell me if there's any other reason I might not want to, or should, use this board for my first bow, please let me know. Any constructive criticism or advice is welcome!
I look forward to hearing what you guys have to say!
-
First off I would like to say welcome, I'm no expert on boards I will let others comment but just wanted to let you know there's some board build alongs in the how to section I think George & Bubba have some there Good luck with your build !
-
Welcome to PA. I'm sure you will learn lots here. Afraid I haven't built a board bow, but hopefully you'll get lots of good advise on this.
-
That looks like a pretty good prince of wood, and long as those checks don't go to deep or if they are in an area you can avoid. That lateral warp is nothing to worry about and easily fixed with some heat. The hardest part of building a board bow is picking out the board. Good luck!
Eric
-
I would be worried about what looks like some good grain run off about 2/3 of the way down. and that check worries me a bit too. Boards need to be really good to work well in my experience. But don't be afraid to try--remember it is just a stick. Just wear eye protection when you bend it 8)
-
I'm not the guy to ask about board bows either but I do want to say welcome! I can't tell you how much I've learned here on PA. You certainly did the right thing by joining in. Happy bending!
-
Welcome Kalvek...Your starting with more ammunition then most getting all of that literature.Sometimes it's got to be reread over and over and to catch what you need.I'm not one making board bows but there are a few just mentioned earlier here that have tons of experience with them.
-
Welcome! Grain looks pretty good to me, about the same as the red oak board I made my second bow from. I didn't back it and it never raised a splinter. I wouldn't worry about that slight warping. Just draw a center line and make sure that your string will bisect the handle. I've made another 30 bows since that one and quite a few have been from boards. I like maple or ERC and back them with hickory so I can glue a couple inches of reflex in. If you get the tiller right, board bows make for good, durable shooters.
-
Wow, lots of replies! Thanks for the warm welcome guys! Sorry I wasn't able to reply sooner. I was working on making my tillering stick in the garage, and then went out to pick up some food.
Stick Bender -- I'll be sure to check them out! I think I did see George's build-along when I was combing through the forums prior to joining, and it looked pretty in-depth.
stuckinthemud -- I hope so! I know I've still got a long way to go, so any advice is welcome.
High-Desert -- I'm assuming that by checks you mean the cuts in the side of the board? Yeah, I don't think they run too deep, and even though one of them is a little closer to the center of the board, I think it's far enough up that it will be in a part of the bow that I'll be trimming down with my rasp. The other check is much farther up the board, near the end of it. Could you explain what you mean when you say that the warp could be fixed with heat? Do you mean something like a steam box? Because I'm not quite sure I could afford to make something like that just yet. And I definitely agree that picking out a board is the hardest part. I picked through three stores, and only found one board at one store the week after I checked.
jeffp51 -- Do you think you could point out where you see the grain run off? I had thought the board looked like it had a fairly straight grain. Will do! I hope that it doesn't break when I start shaping and tillering it, but I understand that breaking bows is something that's understood to happen a lot for beginners.
upstatenybowyer -- Thanks! I certainly hope to learn a lot from you guys.
Beadman -- Hehe, thanks! I'm the type that likes to be well-prepared before I tackle something new, and I did a lot of research into what good resources were -- now I just have to read them in full, or piecemeal as applies to each project!
GB -- Thanks! Personally, I'd rather be safe than sorry in regards to a backing. If I back it and it does end up breaking, then I figure the break won't be anything catastrophic, though I'd still wear eye protection while tillering. Besides, I think that it might look rather nice when backed with some black linen. Could you elaborate on how I would draw the center line? Do you mean a straight line from the unwarped portion of the board straight up until it (hopefully) meets the other slightly warped end, and then shaping it around that center line? I'd love to find some maple or hickory, but I just don't know where to find any around my location in Northern Florida. I don't know about ERC, but I can always check if my local Lowe's or Home Depots have any available. Barring that, there is a cabinetry place in my city that stocks lumber in the rough. I hope I get the tiller right on my first bow. I might make a tillering gizmo that I've seen to try to help with that.
I'm actually making this bow as a gift for my best friend's birthday, so I hope all goes well. I've been interested in bowyery for a while, and with this birthday coming up, I figured it was the perfect excuse to finally get started!
-
Kal,
First, also welcome. Look at the last picture you posted. If you follow the grain from the very center, it looks like it leaves the board in the middle of the black and white carpet. There look to be two or three more run offs on the right side just over your hand.
If those checks go too deep they will cause problems too.
-
Kalvec, welcome! One of the great things about this is that You don't need a lot of tools! On my last bow I used a Vaughan half hatchet, 4 way rasp, drawknife (only used as a scraper, so you could use scissors), chainsaw file, and sandpaper. If you have a table saw you should look at this build along for board bows, I'm going to try it on some ipe that I have. http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,35312.0.html
Where are you from?
-
Yeah, I just meant that when you mark the center of the board to keep that center mark shy of where it starts to warp and draw your line with a straight edge through it. You'll wind up with more material on one side of the line than the other. But you'll be narrowing to the tips there anyway if I'm looking at the board correctly. And if so, a little grain runoff there shouldn't cause a problem because the tips don't bend much. I've never used linen, but have seen a few done that way. Some guys buy silk ties from the Goodwill and use that for backer, too.
I've only used hickory strips or cherry bark for backing. Making a gizmo is a great idea. I've always had a hard time seeing the less obvious weak or stiff areas when my bow is on the tillering tree. A gizmo is a big help.
Hickory is good wood for a board bow, too. I used to get it from a local big box store in my area. Then I found a hardwood lumberyard an hour's drive from me that stocks it plus hard maple and ERC. No osage though, unfortunately. ;)
-
Welcome to PA. Take everything with a grain of salt. I've never made a board bow, but I agree with jeffp about the grain running off. That being said you might be able to lay it out diagonally so as to stay with the grain. Try the worst you can do is learn something. Cheers- Brendan
-
Welcome Kalvek. You have some of the best wood bowyers in the US and from around the world at your fingertips here on PA. Ask questions, we love pics and just join in on the fun. What part of the country(world) are you from. Might be some bowyers or events near you.
-
Welcome to the PA
-
Welcome, brother!
Since you use imugr I suspect you have been on reddit.com/r/bowyer? I'm /u/ADDeviant over there.
Actually, the grain that board doesn't look half bad with a little trimming to follow the grain, but that crack on the face needs some consideration....
-
Thanks again for all the replies guys!
jeffp51 -- Ah, I think I see what you mean. I'm going to have to double check the board, but when I was looking at it earlier tonight I was having trouble seeing that same grain pattern with the runoff on the face. Maybe it was just a poor photo?
Morgan -- Heh, I actually don't have too many tools myself -- some sandpaper of varying grit, a 4 way file/rasp, hand saw, round file (I don't know if it's a chainsaw file, though. It may not be thin enough for nocks), and a woodcutter's rasp. I'm in North Florida currently, but I don't know for how much longer. It depends on how things go with finding a job, since I'm a recent grad.
GB -- Ah, alright. Thanks for clearing that up! Yeah, I figured that might be the case if I try to correct for the lateral warp. I'll have to take a good look at each face so I make sure I don't get too much grain runoff by overcorrecting. Ah, that's a good idea! I hadn't thought to check a GoodWill for cloth, or rather I had thought that anything I might come across cloth-wise at a Good-Will might have a pattern instead of being plain cloth. Either way, I picked up a yard of linen (the blend with rayon in it was cheaper) for $10, so I have plenty of cloth to work with for more bows when I find some more good quality boards. I'm just not sure if I should use a single layer of linen, or a double layer, since I did see one bowyer on youtube use a double layer of silk. Granted, silk is thinner, so... Mhmm! I thought it would be a great tool to have, especially since I'm just starting out and it would be harder to spot any minor differences in unevenness. Ah, I have yet to find anyone around me that has hickory, let alone maple or ERC. I did see that they had Western Red Cedar at the Lowe's I went to, but don't know how that would work out.
Penderbender -- Thanks for the advice Brendan -- like I said earlier, I didn't exactly see the grain runoff on the face when I was looking at the board earlier tonight, so either it was a poor photo, or I'm just inexperienced and need to look at it with fresh eyes in the morning. It's more likely the latter, but I like to hold out hope that it's still salvageable. I agree; at this point, I've held on to the board for a few days without doing anything with it, and I just need to sit down, mark out where I'm going to be taking wood off, and get started so I can actually get some experience.
Pat B -- Thanks for the warm welcome! I'll be sure to do so -- I look forward to being able to show off my first finished bow sometime in the future here! I'm from the US, currently living in Northern Florida. I'm not sure of any bowyers near me, but I do know that there was the Traditional Bowhunters of Florida event in Ocala recently. I couldn't make it because of other obligations, unfortunately. Otherwise, that might have been a good place to pick up a stave.
selbow joe -- Thanks!
Springbuck -- I have! That was actually the first place I went to to start seeking out information on bowyery, though it doesn't seem nearly as active as this forum. Oh, I remember you, then! I was the newbie over there that goes by u/Kulden. I thought so as well, but like I said earlier in this post, I am a novice, so if there's anything I haven't personally seen, then it wouldn't surprise me. Others have mentioned the grain looking like it runs off on the face, so I'll need to take a serious look at it. Do you mean the gouge in the side? I don't think there is a crack in the face of the board. As far as that gouge, yeah, that's something I'm really going to have to take into consideration when I start working on the board.
I did also want to ask you guys: Do you have any advice as to which side of the board I should make the belly and which the back? Are there certain things I should look for or things to take into consideration when deciding? I may have read over that part in the TBB, but might've just forgotten.
I also tried to get a better view of the grain on at least three of the sides via video, and uploaded if any of you would like to take a look: https://youtu.be/PyikOrrwPzM
-
I just looked at your video and your board looks really good to me. I wouldn't worry about the little bit of runoff on the ends. Maybe the gouge in the side is close enough to the tips that it will be gone when you cut out the profile? I couldn't tell. All things equal, I don't think it makes any difference on which side is the back. If I have a board that is warped into any kind of reflex at the tips, I make that side the back. Unless you have a long draw, 68" sounds like a good length to me.
-
Welcome!
My site may help you.
Jawge
http://traditionalarchery101.com
-
As far as fixing the bend, you don't need anything expensive. A pot of boiling water with some foil. Steam the area, put it in a form to make it straight, let it dry for a day or two. Repeat if necessary. That bend looks pretty minor, sonit womt take much to straighten that out
Eric
-
Welcome! And you are getting a lot of replies because we are so happy to see you fail. And happy to see you victorious. In general, we are just happy to see you because either way, we get to help you get through the failures and also celebrate the victories. We are funny that way.
Go read all of Jawge's stuff! He wrote the book on board bows. Literally.
Keep an eye out for Primitive Tim and Parnell, both Florida boys and both talented. Then there is mullet. He's sorta Florida when he isn't running around the Middle East or Bolivia or where ever the CIA has him working these days. >:D If you can hook up with any of them, and a few I likely forgot, they will surely help walk you through a bow or three.
Soak up all you can, just make sure you pass it along to the next person.
-
Hi there and welcome! I'm also a new guy and recently did my first bow, a red oak BB as well. I will share that although it shoots well, I gave it a rounded belly and that was a mistake. It has developed chrysals as a result. Fun times though!
-
When your tillering take it slow. Don't ever draw it past its intended draw weight. Don't draw it when it isn't bending even or you'll get bad set, or some other damage. The most important steps in tillering happen before you even brace the bow. Therefore floor tillering and long string are your friends. Learn how to use them. I've learned this from my mistakes.
-
GB -- Thanks for taking the time to look at it! There are actually two gouges, one that's towards one end where a tip will be, so I don't have to worry about it too much, and the other is closer to the midpoint of the board, so I'll have to consider how to deal with it. Unfortunately my board doesn't have any kind of reflex so I can't use that to judge. I guess I'll just pick the side that I prefer for the back. I did want to ask, when you're backing a bow, do you back from end to end or from some point below the nock to another point below the opposite nock?
Jawge -- Thanks! I'll be sure to give your information on board bows an in-depth reading before going to work on my board. It's always useful to have more information, especially when going into something new for the first time.
High-Desert -- Oh, okay. And here I thought I was going to need a setup with some time invested into making it. Could you explain how the foil comes into play? And by "form" I assume you mean just something to keep it straight, which could be as simple as the board being clamped between some 2x4s? I think I had also read somewhere that steaming and bending can possibly weaken some of the fibers in a stave/board. Is that something I should worry about, or is this a common enough process that it's not worth worrying about?
JW_Halverson -- Thanks! Haha, it's appreciated either way -- I guess it is also exciting to get some new blood into what is considered a rather niche hobby, eh? I fully intend to! I'm going to go over all that he has written pertaining to boards and board bows before I go to mark out my board for a handle, nocks, and where I'm going to be removing wood from. Will do! It's good to know there are others around my area that are into bowyery as well. Heh, I'll be sure to pass on whatever I learn -- I've just gotta make/attempt to make a bow first ;) .
Whiskeyjet -- Thanks! Good to see that there are some others here that are new as well. I read about chrysals a bit in the TBB, but I'm having trouble finding info on what exactly they are, especially since I didn't see a definition for them as I was reading the TBB. Hmm, I take it that when you say that you rounded the belly it's more in the shape of a half-circle/half-oval rather than just having the edges rounded? Or is simply rounding the edges off enough to have a bow be considered to have a rounded belly? If you don't mind, I'd like to hear about your experience building a red oak board bow, since that's what I'm getting into (i.e. were there any challenges you had with any part of the build, like tillering?).
gfugal -- Ahh, alright, thanks for the advice. Something like two to three passes with some coarse sandpaper and check the tiller again? If I'm understanding correctly, do you mean that if I intend to have the bow measure at, say #20, then even if it's nowhere near the draw length that I want it at yet, if it's already come to #20 then I shouldn't draw it any further and should instead shave it down a bit more and check again? Do you have any resources on how to floor tiller? I've seen some videos on it, but for the most part it seems like you're eyeballing it when floor-tillering. I intend to order some B-50 and make a flemish twist string with a timber hitch that I'll use as a tillering string, since I've heard that a string with a timber hitch is good for tillering since it's adjustable.
-
Maybe you can fill that gouge with superglue or Titebond 3 mixed with sawdust. I filled a punky knot on the back of an osage bow with TB3 and sawdust successfully. I fill minor drying checks with superglue.
My bows are already floor tillered and have tip overlays on them when I back them with cherry bark. I run the bark 1/16" short of the tip overlays. I've seen bows that stop the backer a couple of inches short of the tips, and some people wrap thread around where the backer ends. I don't wrap thread around the overlapped seams or anywhere. I just check the ends and seams to make sure they've been glued down tight.
-
I don't have Titebond 3, but I do have Titebond 2. If I can't manage to find a way to remove that gouge without compromising the board, would that work? Ahh, okay, so adding a backing is one of the last things that you do. Okay, I'm sure I can always shape the linen ends where it'll be near the tips so that there won't be any jagged/sharp corners or frayed ends.
-
I'm sure TB2 will work. One think I do right after I rough the bow out is to round the edges all along the back of the bow. I use a fine rasp and go over it with 60 grit. Keeps the odds of raising a splinter down. I round the edges a little on the belly while I'm floor tillering. When it's on the long string and I'm still rasping the belly and flattening it, I still try to keep from having a sharp edge while I'm getting the limbs to bend. I round the edges a bit more when I get it to low brace and am doing the final tillering.
Never used linen, but I use fine sandpaper along the edges and at the tips on cherry bark before I stain it.
-
Ah, alright; thanks GB. I'll be sure to soften the edges when I start tillering. I still need to measure out where I'm going to start, though, hehe.
I think I'm figuring out how I'm going to need to measure this board out in order for it to be even, though I'm not sure if it's best for the grain. In order to get it to cross a center point, I need to have string stretched across the board a quarter inch from the side of each board, but on opposite ends -- on a diagonal angle if you're looking at the board from left to right. Another thing is, I have where the end of the nock is going to be as being 1/2 inch wide, and every nine inches increase the total wide gradually by .25 inches a total of three times for each limb. This is also counting that I give 4 inches on each side of the center point to give enough room for a handle.
What I'm wondering is if I'm going to have enough mass in the limbs for the bow to actually work at these measurements? I still haven't measured out how much I'm going to take from the belly of the bow, since I need to rough it out first, but what I worry about with this shape is if the grain will work if it's at a slight angle, or if it's trouble waiting to happen. I could always steam the board as High-Desert had said, but I'm not exactly sure how long I would need to steam the board in order for it to be pliable enough to clamp into place and straighten out.
EDIT: I thought I would try to throw this up here, but here's a very rough depiction of what I'm doing. The shift in grain due to having to measure out the board diagonally to get it to cross the center is a bit exaggerated, since the board is only 1.5 inches wide, but it should give an idea of what I'm doing which isn't as easily captured with just my camera phone, especially 40 minutes after midnight.
-
Since your board is 1" X 2", unfortunately you don't have a lot of options. It's 1 1/2" wide and you definitely don't want to narrow it. My guess would be make it full width for half the length of each limb and then taper to the 1/2" tips. Jawge has a red oak board follow along on his site, but it's for a bendy handle bow. You could probably adapt it for a rigid 8" long handle (4" for your hand to fit, plus 2" for the taper for each fade). Your 3/4" thickness will be more than enough. What draw weight are you trying for?
-
Oh, okay, thanks for letting me know. It did seem that the end product would be rather thin if I did narrow it. I did see that Jawge had a build-along, and I should look at it more; I was just thinking a solid handle might be good to reduce hand shock. I'm actually trying to shoot for a draw weight of #20 - #25 -- I was wanting to make this bow as a gift for my best friend, since I'm probably going to be leaving the town that we're in soon, and won't get a chance to see them for a long while.
I'm assuming that the pages of his site here ( http://traditionalarchery101.com/lightboardbows.html ) (light board bow), here ( http://traditionalarchery101.com/boards.html ) (board bows, general), here ( http://traditionalarchery101.com/boardbowbuildalong.html ) (board bow build along), and here ( http://traditionalarchery101.com/burlap.html ) (backing a bow with cloth) would be best to follow along with in order to achieve what I'm going for?
I also had a question: When steaming a board (since that might make things easier for me) how should I go about it? On page 162 of the TBB it shows how you can steam parts of a stave with a pot of boiling water and foil, but doesn't mention if I should let the wood be in direct contact with the pot. I just worry that if I let the board be in direct contact with a hot pot, that it's going to scorch the board. There's also the issue that I'm not exactly sure of how much of the wood needs to be steamed to be straightened (I'm not sure how far the warp extends, though I think it's just one end). Clamping it down to something straight should be no issue, but as an alternative, if steam and heat are what are needed, could I bring the board into the bathroom with me while I run the shower? Or would that not be a concentrated enough source of steam and heat?
-
Yeah I went way beyond rounding corners. The back is flat and the belly is fully rounded, like an elongated D. The area near the fades is too thin also, and early midlmb too thick. The hardest part for me was and is getting planar surfaces and just flat out removing wood with the stanly sure form. I have a spoke shave and have no idea how to use it properly. Working on learning that with YouTube now. After shooting it a few times, it started picking up more set. When the sun hit it right, I could see little criss cross lines on the center belly. I could re tiller it but I want to just leave it as is and move on to my next experience. I have a bandsaw now which really improves the rate at which I can make errors!
-
Kalvek - IMO I wouldn't bother with trying to steam and straighten it out, esp. if you're going to back it.
-
Whiskeyjet -- Ohh, okay. I've heard of other people having some trouble with the Stanley Surform as well. I was going to look into getting a Shinto saw rasp because I've heard of people having a hit or miss experience with the surform. That's a shame about your first bow, but you'll do better with the next one since you've learned from your experiences with this one! Haha! I wish I had a band saw -- it would make things so much easier when removing or cutting wood, but I just don't have the space for it.
GB -- Yeah, I'm thinking you're right. It looks to be a bit of a hassle to try and figure out how I was going to steam it, and when I laid it flat on it's side and measured how much of a crook there was, it was just 5/16 of an inch off of center.
Unfortunately I just went to cut the board down to size and discovered some cracks inside the board; I think the board was probably too dry. I'm going to have to find a different board, I think.
-
Yeah, I'd look for a better one, too. If it was osage, I'd cut out the profile and see if I could still use it. Red oak, not so much.
-
Yeah lots of early growth in there too, not that that is the first or second priority selecting a board.
-
Live and learn I guess. I went out to Lowe's the other day and think I found a new board already, and it looks much better than the old board I picked out. Not nearly as much early growth in this one as there was in the old one. I suppose I can always use the old one for handle blocks, though, if it's not too cracked inside.
-
I'd keep cutting that one down shorter and shorter until that crack disappears. See how they are perpendicular to the growth rings? Thats a drying check that follows the radial grain. It's suspicious that it was hiddden, but you'd find almost any others while roughing out the bow,.. Try tillering a 62" bendy handle for practice if it'll give you that much. Why not?
-
Ah, I wish I had seen your response sooner, Springbuck! I already started work on another board, and was cutting that older board down for a handle and a tillering gizmo.
I should be getting in a Shinto Saw Rasp that should make roughing out the bow a lot faster than it was going to be with the Nicholson rasp that I had, though, so I may post progress pics of the other board.
-
Welcome to Florida, Kalvek, thanks to JW my indentity is blown. ::) There are a few of us in Central Florida and one or two in the Jacksonville area. Only built one board bow and wasn't happy with it but you can't go wrong with the advice you are getting. There should be some good sources for "tree wood" in North Florida, ya just have to get out and cut some. (S
-
Hi Mullet! Thanks for the welcome! Ah, good to know! I'm currently in Alachua county, but don't know when that might change in the future. Sorry to hear that your experience with a board bow wasn't the best. It does seem a lot harder to find a board that is up to the standards we need for a bow.
Good to know! I was wondering though, don't I need some kind of permit or permission? I can't imagine that I would just be able to wander onto any piece of open land that doesn't look owned and just cut down a tree. Also, what /are/ the types of trees in Florida that can offer up some good quality wood for a bow? My reason for using a board for my first bow is that I was planning on making this as a gift for my best friend's birthday, since she didn't have a bow herself but does like archery, and that's only a few months out.
I imagine that if I cut down a tree to use for wood, I would need to let it season for quite some months before it would even be ready. Do you know of anyone in the North Florida Area, or just in Florida in general, that might sell seasoned bow staves? I did see one person on ebay selling bow staves of varying length, but the listing didn't mention if they were seasoned or not.
-
Seasoning time depends on a lot of factors, but can be reduced by roughing out the blank. If you have an attic that would help :)
-
Sorry for the late reply, Whiskey! That's good to know! I currently have an attic, but don't know how long I'll currently be living where I am. I may either be moving into an apartment or moving back home with my parents until I can find a better job that's actually in my field. So I don't know that I'll have enough time to season a piece of wood.