Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Arrows => Topic started by: DC on March 12, 2017, 09:56:56 pm
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I make my own points using duplex nails. They work fine but are a bit soft and the point rounds off a bit. I was thinking about case hardening them. Does anyone have any experience with that?
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What kind of arrows do you use them on? I like to braze weld a lump of brass on the head of a nail and grind down to a point, (spin with a drill motor while grinding). works beautifuly on bamboo shafts and weigh about 125 grains they seem to be hard enough if you don't hit a big rock. You will have the coolest arrows around. Kenneth
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I use Kenneth's brazed nail points. He sent me some a few years ago and they work great. I just add a sinew wrap just behind the head but I don't think it is necessary.
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Pat I am in the mood to make up some, will get you resupplied.
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I'll trade yu some hill cane for it...but you'll have to straighten it yourself! :OK
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I have tons of shafting that needs straightening but I will get you some points. Some for you and some to share. When I get to going I can make a bunch pretty quick.
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I put a piece of aluminium (it's what I had)behind a duplex nail and ground it to shape like you said. I don't know why but the tip keeps rounding off. I only use them for target shooting. I just thought case hardening would toughen them up a bit. here's a pic.
Oh, bamboo shafts :D
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For hardening steel get it hot then quench in water, it might help. Kenneth
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Nails are mild steel, they won't harden by quenching. You have to get some carbon into the steel first, then heat treat. I've done a bunch of surfing, looking a various ways of case hardening and all of them seem like more trouble than it's worth. It was worth a thought. It would be nice if they made duplex concrete nails but I've had no luck finding them. Can't imagine a use for them either.
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If you're already adding material and grinding to make a cone then you may as well just get some hard steel rod in the right diameter and cut a bunch of lengths, add the aluminum or brass or whatever and grind to a bullet point and viola. The only part that seems like it would be any more difficult than doing the same with duplex nails is trying to get the back of the point flat but that shouldn't be too hard to conquer.
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I am curious to hear any other ideas using hardened cut or other concrete nails. seems that there was a cut nail with pex design I saw online once.... somewhere ??
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If you're already adding material and grinding to make a cone then you may as well just get some hard steel rod in the right diameter and cut a bunch of lengths, add the aluminum or brass or whatever and grind to a bullet point and viola. The only part that seems like it would be any more difficult than doing the same with duplex nails is trying to get the back of the point flat but that shouldn't be too hard to conquer.
Maybe I could drive a concrete nail though a small washer and then build up brass using the washer as a shoulder, hmmmm
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DC- heat up to orange, quench in motor oil. Do this 3 times then bring them to straw and quench in oil. They'll be plenty hard. Josh
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Is this the "old motor oil" method I read about or can I use clean oil? That one is easy enough to try but everything I read about it was sceptical. Have you used this for gun parts?
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I generally use old oil out of my truck, but just because there's literally hundreds of gallons in the shop tank for the oil furnace. New oil works just as well. I don't know about synthetic oil though. I'd have doubts about that. Yes I do use it on certain gun parts. It's not hard enough for sear or hammer contact surfaces, but it is plenty hard for other parts that won't hold up in an annealed state. Josh
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I'll give it a shot :D
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You would be better off using canola oil, it's not as toxic and gives a faster quench. You want the oil at about 100 degrees if you live in a cold climate or your steel can crack(ask me how I know). If you haven't done any forging or welding on the 'points' you only need to heat it up to a non critical temp (a magnet won't be attracted to it at that temp) one time, and then get it into the oil as fast as you can. Once you've done that, clean em off and put in a preheated (450 degrees) oven for 30min and then into the oil again as fast as you can get it there. This should give you a chisel hard point, provided the steel is heat treatable. Not all steel will harden. If it won't harden than you can contact me and somewhere I have a formula for a solution that will case harden mild steel.......good luck.
Paul
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It didn't work. I fact I think it's softer. Nails must be very low carbon. I think all I did by heating it was take out any work hardening that the nail had in it.
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That sucks! Works like a champ on cold rolled steel. I didn't think it got much milder than that stuff. Sorry about that. I didn't mean to waste your time. Josh
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Not a waste, I learned it won't work ;D I may try a few more things like brine, maybe with ice in it. Maybe a Slurpy would work.
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Maybe I could drive a concrete nail though a small washer and then build up brass using the washer as a shoulder, hmmmm
That could work, or you just reminded me I read somewhere on here about just using threaded rod, tightening two or three brass nuts against each other and just grind that into a bullet point.
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I would then be looking for hardenable screws. I'm not sure if that would be any easier.
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A few prototypes made from masonry nails, 10 cents each. Bottom two are a washer driven on and then attempted buildup of brazing. I haven't picked up an oxy-acetylene torch for over thirty years so they may improve a bit. I couldn't build up any amount of brass. Top one is a couple of nuts driven on and then brazed. A lot easier to do. I chucked them up in a drill and rounded them on a bench grinder. I have a chunk of mild steel I tested them on. I tried to drive them into it with a hammer. A duplex nail just rounded over and made no mark. These masonry ones stayed sharp and punched a dimple like a centre punch. Now to decide if they are worth the effort. I'm sure with a bit of practice I could turn out a dozen in less than an hour.
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I like the looks of that top one! Cheers- Brendan
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why go through all that trouble? just buy some case hardened bolts that are the same diameter as the nails and completely threaded, then buy a handful of hardened nuts that fit the bolt. add nuts to get the desired weight one nut over expected weight. and grind to a point being careful to not heat it .dip in water to cool while grinding, these should hold up just fine.
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Sounds good but I haven't seen any case hardened bolts (I'll keep my eyes open though) and if the hardening is just surface by the time you put a point on it you would have ground through the hardening and just have a mild steel point. By point I'm talking about the last 1/8" or so. Of course it all depends on the depth of the hardening. The nuts wouldn't have to be hardened. I'm using aluminum now and it show no sign of deforming.
And it's no trouble, this is just a back burner project that I putter away on while I'm waiting for bows to rehydrate or dehydrate.
Thanks for the input
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I use brass nuts counter tightened on threaded rod, and then ground down to a point on my belt sander or bench grinder-- 3 8-32 nuts and about 3" of rod give me a tip of 125 grain. they hold up really well i the targets I shoot. the arrows always break first.
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Those are looking good DC. I'm sure you'll pick up the brazing in a hurry. I'm thinking grade 8 bolts would be hard enough. I not sure how small they make em. I know you can get 1/4". Your concrete nails look good to me. Bjrogg
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I'm thinking grade 8 bolts would be hard enough
or at least have enough carbon to be rehardened if not hard enough already.
please post if you locate a supplier of any size smaller than 1/4
there are also various hard self drilling specialty screws for sheet metal and lighter plate applications that you might be able to run into thicker brass or aluminum with a pilot hole.
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I like all three of those DC. :OK
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At our range they have traffic cones on the firing line to stand your arrows in. When you walk back from retrieving your arrows you just drop them in the cone. Cones have no bottom so sometimes the points bounce on the concrete. I think this is what is rounding off my points. With the new points my arrows will be taking a chip out of the floor. Might get me booted out. ;D ;D