Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Ippus on March 25, 2017, 04:57:08 pm
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Here we go. Finally getting ready to start my next bow project. :BB
I'm thinking through the approach at this stage and would welcome input. I'm hoping to take it hunting this fall (so I need to get crackin on the arra-makin', too). This time, I'm aiming for 45-50# @30" (state rules say you can't hunt with less than 40# @28").
I found another red oak board at HD the other day that looked like the grain was nice and straight. It's currently 72" 1x3 (.75x2.5).
I was originally going to use a plan similar to my last project: Red oak #1 (http://www.primitivearcher.com/smf/index.php/topic,58181.15.html). I liked the wide limbs, but as this board is denser, with fewer, wider rings (about half as many across the back) and a lot lower proportion of early wood showing, I think I can manage something a little more aggressive/efficient.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/612/33278418341_3419fc8f81_o.jpg)
Also, it looks like this board actually wants to have narrower limbs! Even though it's 2 1/2" wide, I'm only going to be able to get about 1 3/4" limb width, because it's got a sideways warp to it (that I didn't notice at HD). There's only 7/8" between the centerline and the edge at its worst (near the middle).
I could try to steam it straight, but in its current shape, the grain actually follows the center line much better than it would if I straightened it... so I think I'll just roll with it (if I straightened it, the board moves to the right in the middle, making that grain run more to the right before curving back to the far end).
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/765/33278419111_cb52348c07_o.jpg)(https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3709/33023786380_74a32cd522_o.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3910/33278419861_70a8ee3fb5_o.jpg)
The last board was 44.4 lb/cu ft. This one is 47 (about 0.75 s.gr.). That slightly higher density and the wider rings make me less concerned with narrower limbs. 1 3/4" should be safe enough, maybe even a little less if I'm being too optimistic about the distance from the centerline to the edge.
Jim Baker's ballpark rule of thumb in TBB II "Boards from Bows" for a 'low-set, safe limb-width' on a '66" stiff-handled bow drawing 50lb at 28"[...]'
Density (lb/cu ft) = Limb width
30 = 3"
35 = 2 1/4"
43 = 1 3/4"
55 = 1 1/4"
Part 2
There's also a bit of natural curve in it, about 1/8"-1/4" between the middle and the ends (it's not perfectly even).
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/570/33406470625_b24f0892ec_o.jpg)
I'm debating: Based on the end-grain, using the outer face (towards the outside of the tree) as the back - which I'd normally lean toward - would also result in starting with the stave deflexed, while using the inner face as the back would give me some natural reflex.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3829/33023784820_ba7bce8fbb_o.jpg)
Based on the edge-grain, do you think the runoff/fiber violation would be any worse/better if I use the inner face (inner side of the tree) as the back of the bow? If there's going to be a little fiber violation in the back, is it better if it's running toward the center or away? Does it matter?
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3942/33406474965_92bd78ecae_o.jpg) (https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/721/33023781120_038c3c70ff_o.jpg)
Anyway, here's the plan, with the lighter bow's dimensions for comparison:
Draw weight:
Red 1: 28# @30"
Red 2: 45-50# @30"
Total Length
Red 1: 71" ntn
Red 2: 68" ntn
Max limb width
Red 1: 2 1/2"
Red 2: 1 3/4"
Tip width
3/8"
Handle dimensions
Red 1: 6" fade-to-fade + 2" fades at each end = 10" handle section. 1 1/4" wide in the center, 1 1/8" at the narrowest, just before the fades. 6" alder riser (total max handle thickness ~1 1/2")
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8073/29739034336_0c2bf6668e_z.jpg)
Red 2: 5 1/2" fade-to-fade + 2" fades at each end = 9 1/2" handle section. Planning on same width taper and riser thickness in the handle. No arrow shelf.
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Unless your palm is reeeeally wide, could reduce handle portion of riser to 4". And if hand is wide, 5" would likely be sufficient.
Thus providing bit more length to the limbs.
Good luck!
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Thanks for the pointers, Knoll. I was really thinking about reducing that handle, just not sure by how much... Any thoughts on which face to use as the back?
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imo, with that board, makes no diff. That bit of reflex is likely gonna pull out, but if ya got a bit of it, I'd likely make use of.
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Well, there's good news and bad news.
The good news is that bit by bit I got this bow tillered and up to my target draw weight (needs to be minimum 40# @28" - I got it up to 43# by toasting the belly and shortening it to 63.5" ntn)
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4791/38924666640_20011a353e_o.jpg)(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4795/38924666630_09609795a5_o.jpg)
The bad news is that I somehow managed to miss that the tips are far enough off-center to create some twist.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4783/40024789974_de56cfe040_o.jpg)(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4771/40692120022_7127637372_o.jpg)
2 questions.
1) Is the twist going to be fatal and/or do you think I can fix it without dropping the draw weight too much? Could I steam it straight or something (not that I have a steaming setup big enough)? Can I just shoot it with a little twist as long as it's not coming unstrung on me? Expect it to fail a little sooner than otherwise?
2) Can you all give a second opinion on the tiller? I think I got it evened out, but after the tips tricked me, I don't totally trust my own eyes.
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4786/40024790024_c028b32422_o.jpg)
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Maybe a little more bend mid limb?
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I have a hickory board bow with a twist no problems so far. I've made several red oak bows I bought from Lowes, not to spoil you enthusiasm but I would make a back up if you're planning on hunting with it.
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Lol! Thanks for that dose of reality, JW!
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the twist isn't that bad, I would not even worry about it.
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I learned a lot with the red oak with out spending a bunch of money on fire wood. What I meant by a back up is I just had one snap clean into mid limb at about 800 shots, tiller was great. No warning or nothing, it shot pretty good to. Ive only made a few successful bows 2 were all red oak, one snapped at 800 the other just changed tiller on me for some reason after 500 shots, the only one that's still going strong is the one I backed with hickory. Of course they were all boards I bought from Lowes. Good luck and good hunting!
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I have had a lot of them snap at less than 800 shots. Red oak makes a decent bow but I don't feel confident with them and have never taken one on a hunting trip.
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I have had a lot of them snap at less than 800 shots. Red oak makes a decent bow but I don't feel confident with them and have never taken one on a hunting trip.
Out of curiousity, Badger/JWMALONE, what would you guys consider a reliable option, bearing in mind that mostly all I have access to is boards from HD - the good stuff like hickory and osage doesn't grow in this neck of the woods. HD has oak, cherry, and walnut, but a straight-grained walnut board is rare as hens' teeth. Found a cherry one once, but wasn't allowed to buy it because I was already in the middle of this one, lol. Box elder (Acer negundo) and Juniper are native, and Siberian elm are everywhere...
I've got half a mind to start shooting it in and see what happens, and just hope that nice cherry piece is still on the shelf if this one goes south.
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I live south of you in Utah. the Siberian elm will make a good bow if you get a good piece of wood. I have made one really good bow (47# @ 30") and have failed in some other attempts. Redhand also lives around here and has made several good siberian elm bows. Juniper is good if backed by sinew--and smells wonderful, but it is hard to find a good piece of wood, in my opinion.
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From the time the timber is felled, Whenever boards are cut at the sawmill, making boards for bows is not a consideration. Mechanical harvesting is damaging to the lumber and often times sawlogs will not be cut into boards for weeks after felling. Then many times the lumber cut will be stickered and stacked in an open air (outside) environment waiting on kiln space. So...... finding a straight grained board is only part of the equation. Finding one that isn’t damaged in the process of making boards is also part of the equation. The latter is a gamble as once the lumber is dried and planed, any fungal damage will not be apparent.
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I've never had a red oak board bow break if I chose the lumber. I see a lot of run outs in that picture.
It's all abut the grain with boards. The ideal is straight tip to tip and to never settle. Walk away.
http://traditionalarchery101.com
Jawge
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Well, I got the string served and lightly waxed, and I went out and put a couple dozen shots through it... wore some extra eye/hand protection just in case.
She didn't blow up on me so far, so I think I'll smooth out the handle and pretty her up a bit (was thinking of trying out the vinegar/steel wool stain I saw on here) and start putting in some range time with her.
Final stats: 63.5" ntn, ~8.5" non-bending handle, ~1.75" set just unbraced (a touch better than my last red oak board, but in the same ballpark), pulls 43# @ 28", a little over 48# @ 30"
Thanks everyone!!
(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4788/40712368482_852bfffa0e_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/252BwKC)
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Great job!
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Looks great, once you get some hickory you'll be a bow making junkie to. LOL
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Excellent tiller! Jawge
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Looks great, once you get some hickory you'll be a bow making junkie to. LOL
Hah! I'm already hooked. Once I get some hickory, I'll be completely sunk!
Excellent tiller! Jawge
Great job!
:D Thanks!
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Yep, my signature says it all.
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:D Nice! Can't believe I didn't see that before... ;D
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Very nice looking tiller on that red oak. Good job!
Mike
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So... any thoughts on why this bow now pulls lighter than when I finished tillering? I just checked again after I finished most of the sanding, and I'm only getting 38# @28" now.
Scratching my head... and pretty aggravated because this was going to be my hunter and now it's below legal weight. )-w(
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If you shot it in after your last weight while tillering, then that may be what happened. Sometimes you lose weight shooting a bow in. Also, if you had a lot of sanding to do, like removing tool marks etc, then that will cut weight too. You can toast the belly if it ain’t backed, and that usually adds weight. It can change the tiller too though which will result in having to remove some more wood and maybe coming up at the same weight. If your regs say 40 lb minimum draw, I don’t think there will be a specified draw length. If you’re tillered to 30” mark that weight “ x weight @ 30” ”. If you’re 38 @ 28” you’ll be over 40 @ 30”
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simply beautiful
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I've never actually made an oak board bow yet but think you did a dandy job with this one by the pictures you showed of tiller etc.Well thought out progression.Congratulations.
I'm probably coming in here a bit late but for poundage increase once on a KCT bow from a stave I used 12 ply linen string laid on in lengths next to each other to gain 7 pounds of draw weight.If I remember right a total of 28 strands.It made the bow practically indestructable also.It was on a bow about as wide as yours.I think 1 and 5/8" wide at fades to begin with but with parallel limbs.I used smooth on epoxy but I bet TT3 would do the job for glue too.You would'nt need to wait too long to see resullts using the epoxy.Maybe a couple of weeks using the TT3.Faster with smooth on of course as there is not as much moisture in it as TT3.It won't give you any more reflex etc.Just actual poundage increase.Just a suggestion.
I've got a whole slew of that linen string if you would like to try that.
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To late now I guess. But I learned to tiller to my draw weight and stop an inch short of my draw length. I also do a lot of sanding so I don't have tool marks to remove at the end.