Primitive Archer

Main Discussion Area => English Warbow => Topic started by: Ruddy Darter on March 27, 2017, 05:45:27 am

Title: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on March 27, 2017, 05:45:27 am
Just started my very first yew stave (Oregon), and discovered a kink in the end grain of the bottom limb, (had to saw off 9" due to a central split in the sapwood and now left with 77").
I reckon this kink runs throughout most of the bottom limb as I run off down the side chasing what I thought was the central grain, which was rather confusing. The top limb's end grain is more regular looking and didn't have a problem chasing the centre.
Just wondering if I should follow this grain for the belly profile to avoid set and for better limb action, or not bother about it.
Here's a pic, one with normal profile and one I'm contemplating which I think might work better.
Thanks for any advice,
 
 R.D.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Del the cat on March 27, 2017, 09:11:48 am
Simply ignore it... :)
It's irrelevant on the belly, and on the back it would mere;y leave you maybe a long thin island along the length of the bow worst case.
Not a problem, it may simply give you a cool looking slightly concave back... sweet  :)
E.G.
A stave with a bit of sideways waggle can just be laid out straight as long as you watch out for edge tools digging in and following the grain.
If it's really worrying you, just jog the bow towards one edge of the stave. The thin off cut from the other side may even make a kids bow or a miniature  :) As per pic... excuse wobbly cross sections  :-[ , but I'm sure you get the idea.
Don't fall into the trap of trying to cut 2 staves... Treat it as one good one plus an offcut that may or may not be useful.
Del
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on March 27, 2017, 09:29:09 am
Right you are Del, OK, I may keep it central then and  I may go for the right hand side that you circled, a little bit closer to the centre though. Thanks, that's really helpful 8). I'll only be going for one bow, ain't got a bandsaw to try for it anyway, and I've taken off 3 sides a fair bit at the handle. I'll be steaming in recurve too after mostly tillered, it has a fair amount of d-flex.
Pic 2 is a rough and exaggerated idea for steam heat bending, a shallow but sharp bend at the centre first, then recurve the limb tips. Seem reasonable? (it will only be drawing to 31")

 
Many thanks again,
 R.D.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Del the cat on March 27, 2017, 10:08:14 am
Remember the old addage, keep it simple, a bit of natural deflex is your friend duting early tillering. Then like you say once it's looking reasonable put in some gentle recurve.
I wouldn't try to put any bend in the centre 'cos the bow is thickest and stiffest there... much easy to bend the tips. (Seriously trust me trying to put much bend in the middle can take a lot of effort)
Just recurve the tips to get 'em back in line with the back of the grip plus maybe an extra inch (that may pull out after).
If your steam bends pull out, switch to dry heat and take plenty of time so it sets the bend in and heat treats it a tad.
Del
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on March 27, 2017, 01:20:59 pm
Cool beans Del, that makes good sense and shall do,  8)
Taken some more wood off chasing the belly ring down and glad I did as I'm getting a lot better picture of the growth direction and what will be dead centre, a lot was deceiving by being sawn clean, the growth rings are pretty tight so got me a little confused but I've hollowed out the ring/rings I'm chasing with my curved carving gouges which are making light work of it.  :), glad I decided to give them a try.
 
 R.D.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Del the cat on March 27, 2017, 02:09:33 pm
Still not sure why you are chasing rings on the belly ???? :o
Del
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on March 27, 2017, 02:16:45 pm
So I can accurately define the centre of the exposed ring/rings( where I've stepped it a few rings while working to the handle to allow a safety margin of a little more wood before working to nearer dimensions)  and then mark out my measurements for final bow and take off from the sides accurately and evenly in accordance to where the bow snakes a little. Because the rings are tight I break into them when working flat I don't know if I'm sloping off left or right and the back is rather rounded which adds to my confusion, you would probably see it for what it is straight away Del but for me  Its just making a clearer picture for me to start with rather than a load of grain lines that would confuse me, until I can read them better from experience I think this is helpful to me. When I cut through that peak on the grain all I'm left with is a load of lines and not knowing which ones the centre and run off the side coz that's the only one showing a flat opening grain.
 I can now draw a line in the centre of the valley down the length of the bow knowing I have the true centre and measure off from there for the sides. I hope there is method in my madness and I'm making sense, sorry if I'm not. (before I started doing this I didn't know if I was coming or going :-\)
 R.D.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: WillS on March 27, 2017, 04:42:50 pm
You don't need to follow grain with Pacific yew.  You could cut a bow out of a stave diagonally and it wouldn't matter.  Ignore the lines, the grain, the direction.  Mark a straight line, draw the bow out and cut it out. 

Pacific yew is brilliant for that reason - even a crazy C-shaped bent stave you can just fit a straight bow down the middle somewhere and not worry.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on March 27, 2017, 04:46:19 pm
Thanks Wills, but to start with I'll continue doing this, good practice if I work on other woods,  It feels correct for me to do this to get the optimum from the wood, I may be wasting my time but it feels right.
But thanks all the same, that's good to know,  8)

*I was once told it's always better to have the bow orientated the way the tree grew, i.e top of the tree is the top limb, root end of tree is bottom limb, therfore after looking at the stave closer I've been working what will be the top limb* (I don't know how much this applies to Oregon yew, but I'll work it that way.)
 R.D.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Marc St Louis on March 27, 2017, 07:03:04 pm
I assume you are making a warbow, none the less I would orient the bow so that the back has a more or less convex back rather than concave.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on March 27, 2017, 07:33:38 pm
Yes Marc, a warbow is the goal. Right OK I see what you mean. Thank you.

 R.D.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: WillS on March 28, 2017, 04:20:01 am

*I was once told it's always better to have the bow orientated the way the tree grew, i.e top of the tree is the top limb, root end of tree is bottom limb, therfore after looking at the stave closer I've been working what will be the top limb* (I don't know how much this applies to Oregon yew, but I'll work it that way.)
 R.D.

I remember when he told me that as well  ;)

It's daft, by the way. 
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on March 28, 2017, 05:34:29 am
OK thanks Wills, and is that the general consensus from most bowyers concerning all self warbows? (meant politely, be nice to read other views concerning this, just for the fact when I'm removing wood from bottom of stave to top it comes of cleanly, in the other direction it tends to mostly tear out due to the wood being a little denser bottom heading north, just thinking on a finished bow with the bottom limb being a little shorter building the bow same as it grew would possibly add some safety or better longevity, especially for the heavy weight bows, and with the majority of staves, mainly European, they are not perfectly clean with the major knots being towards the top, so if a bow fails its better that it breaks high and not around the groin and legs area. (?))
Thinking out loud really...
 
 R.D.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: WillS on March 28, 2017, 06:42:10 am
To be honest, what you'll find is that once it's on the tiller everything will change.  It's nice going in with a plan, but it's wood and human error having a party, so it will never work out perfectly.

Shape the bow, get the tapers even and the balance point central, get it bending and choose the stiffer limb as the bottom of the bow.  It'll possibly even change as you work it, and you'll flip it a number of times.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on March 28, 2017, 07:12:58 am
Cool Wills. Yes, absolutely...intent is perfect, but it's human to error ;), I'm just going with it. I'm enjoying what I'm doing although some may see it as not needed, but it's giving me a clearer picture and confidence. Getting to know the picture of the grain while removing it is valuable to me I feel, as well as practice removing wood efficiently accurately with minimal dust.
I'll shut up now and work when I can on the stave instead  :D
Thanks and a pic of the stave.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: WillS on March 28, 2017, 08:10:20 am
Best of luck with it!  It looks like a lovely stave, and at least if it doesn't quite go to plan you can stake your fame as the first bowyer ever to chase belly rings to get to the roughed out bow :P

What weight are you going for, by the way?
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on March 28, 2017, 08:20:31 am
I reckon finished length will be around 74-75" and I reckon 120@31" would suit it, and I'll be happy with 110-120@31, anything above 100 and I'll be happy.
Yeah, if I'd of been more successful finding the centre I wouldn't be taking such a large ring out, just cleaning up where I mistakenly chased down the right hand side(now removed), now I can make sense of it. If the back had been flatter and not as round as it is I would of been more orientated and I doubt I would of felt the need.
(*not the first, I believe Otzi did this and then used the sapwood side for the belly ;D) I'm only interested in making bows for myself really, so I'm not hindered if I appear foolish...not aiming to though.  :D

 R.D.

 
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: WillS on March 28, 2017, 10:42:40 am
Not appearing foolish at all.  It's probably a far, far safer way of doing it.  Might just take you longer!

74" going to 31" is a really nice combo.  I make mine 73.5" going to 30.5" when the stave allows it.  As before, it's a great looking stave so you should be fine  ;D
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on March 28, 2017, 11:12:28 am
Nice one WillS, I am enjoying it..and 30&1/2" draw sounds cool too, if I need to shorten for whatever reason that's a draw length I like, great for target 🎯.  Now I've made head and tail of this stave I think I've got the bow building bug, seems to be all I'm thinking about.  ;D
Got to sharpen all my tools before I start up again, they were a little blunt when I started up, should be more fun when they're shipshape. I've got a nice couple of little drawknives that I'm looking forward to using.
 
R.D.



 
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on March 29, 2017, 04:48:42 am
Oh, just to add... I will be doing this again on an ash stave, I'm going to aim for a concave on the belly side... I reckon that will work well with toasting.
A bit like this...

 R.D.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on March 29, 2017, 09:36:41 am
Chased the centre length of bow, I didn't need to take as much out once past the centre, here's a couple of pics with the centre line drawn on, a view from both ends, second pic I highlighted some of the end grain to show how it is( actual rings are a lot tighter).
  :NN Not sure how I'll orientate the profile on this end, any suggestions appreciated  :NN
I don't want to take it too out of line with the snake in the stave, I'll thin this limb and feather it to the centre before I reduce the sides, might get a better idea, may chase the ring again.  :D
Thinking of making this a "my first self yew warbow build along", not sure if I need to move the post.

 R.D.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: WillS on March 29, 2017, 10:06:29 am
I'd be very hesitant to try that with ash.  Ash works well with a rounded-ish belly for low weight, and a dead flat belly for heavier bows.  It's a fickle wood to get used to, and if you've not made heavy ash bows before playing around with new ideas may not go so well :P

I've just finished a 150lb ash bow, and it's basically a rectangular cross section with all four corners taken off the same amount.  What you're doing by making the belly concave is producing two highly rounded bellies running alongside each other.  Both will most likely chrysal or fail under any real weight. 

Keep it simple, and reinvent the wheel once you've made a few!
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on March 29, 2017, 10:13:13 am
Well got two to play with, I'll see how it goes,  :D thanks WillS, I got a few months before I can even look at them and that's somewhat of an exaggerated drawing to explain.

Here's a pic where I thought I'd position the bow tip, open to opinion?( Or a little more to the left and have more slope off to one side on the sapwood, it's more even rounded a few inches up from this).
(or the red, although it's twisting opposite to the other end, if that's of any consequence).
Thanks again for any advice,
 R.D.


Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Del the cat on March 29, 2017, 11:48:48 am
IMO that is straight enough to just run a tight string down the middle to find your best centreline and use a straight edge to mark out from there.
Del
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on March 29, 2017, 12:05:31 pm
OK Del, then the black marked profile works better and I'll work it straight from that, it pretty much follows straight where I've taken the sides down at the middle, thanks for that,  I'll get back on with it.  :BB
 (I may follow the shape a bit though, just to get a bit of character to the bow  (-S)
 R.D.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: willie on March 29, 2017, 01:54:01 pm
Quote
I may follow the shape a bit though

I am confused about the following the grain concerns. The stave looks to be sawn in the first place, and your center line just follows someone elses saw cuts?  I understand that yew can be more tolerant of runout, but it would be nice to know where the true grain runs before laying out further cuts.  Is it possible to tell this on yew from inspecting at the wood itself?

will, There is evidence of density decreases and elasticity increases as one goes higher in a tree. Keeeping the bow/tree orientation could be the primitive way to make the bottom limb stronger?
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on March 29, 2017, 02:12:25 pm
Hi Willie, I'll try to explain what I mean...
 
Basically when the stave was triangular I couldn't find the opening centre grain(the corner that was on the belly side was not aligned to the grain, so I was cutting in at an angle to them and just getting side lines) , got confused and skimmed down the sides etc, after I cleared it up to myself it follows the shape of how it was sawn clean.
I meant I'll be following the shape of the exposed centre line for the sides(which corresponds to sawn shape, which is now clear to me)  rather than a dead pole bow dimensions drawn within the staves shape, as you can see from the end grains they are irregular and coresponed differently in its orientation to the back as it gets deeper, so next step for me is to reduce the belly side of the limb I've just been on and find how the centre grain looks compared to the other end and centre which I've taken down to nearer thickness, I'll also hollow the belly ring/rings I chase so I can see how it's aligned with the back which is rounded, so harder to read (I don't want side lines on the belly, only arrowed feathers), put on my marks for the sides from the drawn centre line every 10cm or so and remove. I want to follow the growth character as much as I can basically,  for aesthetics if nothing else. I think the end bow would be better for it(that's if I'm successful).
Ive tried drawing on what I mean with the sketch pen but it's too difficult and looks a mess.
(The other yew stave I have has a flat back and flat bellied square cut and is pretty much pole straight, so much more straight forward, I thought I'd start with the more demanding stave first).
A pic of where I chased down a ring, the red dots and cross is where I got lost and started chasing down the side, and the red ^ is the original belly corner was, to give an idea.
 R.D.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: willie on March 29, 2017, 03:59:34 pm
the corner that was on the belly side was not aligned to the grain????

still a bit confused, sorry, were the staves split or sawn when you bought them?
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on March 29, 2017, 04:10:14 pm
It was sawn clean in a triangle. ( my other stave I mentioned is from a different tree) Don't know if it was quarter split and then sawn clean, but I reckon so. I'm probably not that good at explaining, when I try harder I get worse at it ;D.
(*just to note, all the pics on this post are of the same stave I'm working on).

Put in a nutshell, I'm aiming to be as true as I can laying out the bow with how the tree grew., following the slight snake and twist that is has.  (W.

 R.D.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: willie on March 29, 2017, 04:44:29 pm
Quote
I'm aiming to be as true as I can laying out the bow with how the tree grew., following the slight snake and twist that is has.

I guess that what I am asking, is how can you be sure, that what it has now, is how it grew, if it was sawn?

there are ways to trace the actual grain growth on some kinds of wood, but I dunno about yew.

maybe the best is to straightline it as Del recommends. I fear that I might be encouraging overanyalsis. Maybe more yew guys can post help with how to see the run of the grain.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on April 02, 2017, 09:15:42 am
I got the sides all shimmy'd up with a bit to spare for shaping and then I'll  mark on closer final dimensions for the belly. After that I've decided to take out some of that D-flex at two points. It's also where the stave twists out, it runs straight at the handle for a good while and then twists out again same direction, this is also where the D-flex kicks in, it's pretty straight a good 26" at the centre. The bow will line up bang on then and if I get it moving evenly hopefully more chance of it staying in, so seems a good time to do it, I'll then shape and get ready for tiller.(I gave the stave at press at the centre and gave quite evenly and had a bounce to it, starting to feel a bit bow like :))
Pic shows where I'll heat gun out(going to try and twist a little),  pencil and scraper mark the spot.
Another pic of the funky top limb, (still with a little extra wood for final shaping.
 
 R.D.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: FilipT on April 02, 2017, 10:05:04 am
So pacific yew is practically only wood that allows messing up grain, taking too much off sap wood and such?
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: penderbender on April 02, 2017, 10:38:49 am
There are some other woods that a grain tolerant too. Yew is just one of the better ones. Cheers- Brendan
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on April 02, 2017, 10:52:06 am
I have know idea to either, it's all a learning curve to me, I'm not sure I'm doing the right by this stave either, just trying to apply my(frequently questionable) logic . I havent removed any sapwood as yet, this is how it came. (If all goes pair shaped with this it's a good bit of practice for a nice straight forward stave I have.) Any pointers always appreciated.

 R.D.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: WillS on April 02, 2017, 11:17:26 am
So pacific yew is practically only wood that allows messing up grain, taking too much off sap wood and such?

All yew is fine with grain violations, bad tiller, knots, holes, rot etc.  It's probably (in my opinion) why it was so used so much for mass production of military bows.  You can chop them out of the stave and rough them out quickly and send them off, without needing to spend ages chasing rings, heat straightening and so on.  It's no better at being a bow than all the other European woods, it just makes a bow faster.

Pacific yew is especially good at tolerating straight bows being cut out of curved/twisted staves.  It also never requires back rings to be chased, whereas sometimes on coarse European yew you need to be more careful.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on April 02, 2017, 12:19:52 pm
Well I'm set up for one limb, got to thin the belly on the other limb before I do that one. Just going to try and superglue a length of tin foil to each side to minimise scorching.

 R.D.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: DC on April 02, 2017, 12:39:26 pm
Let us know how the super glue works. I'm doubtful because it releases at about 190 f.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on April 02, 2017, 12:56:15 pm
It's seems ok, I think the hollow belly trapped most of the heat in. I'm only trying to get the worst out for alignment, so far so good and the slight twist has come out a bit on its own.
Leave that for a couple of hours and see if I need some more, I'm only trying for a little straighten out, as you can see some more needs to come off the belly, I'll take that off first if it needs a further tweak.
 
 R.D.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: willie on April 02, 2017, 03:19:41 pm
Quote
All yew is fine with grain violations, bad tiller, knots, holes, rot etc....................It's no better at being a bow than all the other European woods...................

Ruddy
I have not seen where you mentioned your design weight, but Will might be exaggerating a bit.

Guess there is a fine line between being "too careful" and "getting it done", but unless you have quite a bit of that Pacific yew on hand,  I do not think that taking some time to be careful, especially while you learn, is such a bad thing.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on April 02, 2017, 05:19:42 pm
Thanks Willie,
 
Yep, it's a bit pricey for me at the minute so aiming to make the most of what I have. I feel I dissected this stave to a degree :D which was fun, and maybe I'm wearing a life ring in a paddling pool but there's no loss and no time frame, but would mean a lot to me if I got a good result working for my first self bow.  :BB
As for design weight it's 110-140 (36mm wide and 33mm deep at the handle, although I have a few mm extra at the moment ), but weight is not really the objective, but a good working bow is the main goal.
I feel I got the hard graft done now anyway,  :OK

 R.D.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: WillS on April 02, 2017, 05:48:32 pm

Ruddy
I have not seen where you mentioned your design weight, but Will might be exaggerating a bit.

Not really ;)

I've got yew bows made with bits of the worst timber you've ever seen.  Bug damage, holes through the sapwood, heartwood showing through the back, rot, decay and delaminating rings all in one limb.  It's been shooting for years.

It's the ultimate beginners wood, and will take the most ridiculous abuse.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: willie on April 02, 2017, 06:05:53 pm
Quote
It's the ultimate beginners wood,

There is nothing like success, to inspire the first time bowyer. Just wish we had more (any at all) growing around here.

Quote
but weight is not really the objective, but a good working bow is the main goal.

Ruddy,
Do you have a particular tillering method in mind? Some like to work to specific weight goals while others are more "let the wood talk to me as I go" types.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: WillS on April 02, 2017, 06:19:53 pm

There is nothing like success, to inspire the first time bowyer. Just wish we had more (any at all) growing around here.

Yeah, that's the problem with yew.  While it's ideal for beginners, it's also either expensive or impossible to get hold of for many.  I take it for granted that I can get as much as I want here, but I do remember starting out when I couldn't find it without paying a fortune for the American stuff, plus shipping etc. 

I'm now in the same boat with elm - I'd give away body parts to get hold of good amounts of Wych elm but it's just not available where I'm based!
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Lucasade on April 03, 2017, 01:56:34 am
I'm now in the same boat with elm - I'd give away body parts to get hold of good amounts of Wych elm but it's just not available where I'm based!

We've got loads of it growing in the verges here (Warwickshire). I've got a couple of spare staves if you like - how about a kidney?  >:D
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on April 03, 2017, 02:34:29 am
willie,
The set of dimensions for a 110-140 that I copied down off the🇳🇴Norwegian bows🇳🇴website is just a start off point, I'm going to let the wood decide what it wants to be, hopefully not kindling  (=). I'll be wholly focused on looking for the shape and how it arcs on the tiller.

R.D.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: WillS on April 03, 2017, 04:27:19 am
I'm now in the same boat with elm - I'd give away body parts to get hold of good amounts of Wych elm but it's just not available where I'm based!

We've got loads of it growing in the verges here (Warwickshire). I've got a couple of spare staves if you like - how about a kidney?  >:D

I've got more yew than I know what to do with.  Currently got about 30 staves of really good stuff seasoning, and an entire school grounds of more when I want to fell it.  If you've got good quality Wych elm I'd be more than happy to trade.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on April 03, 2017, 12:45:14 pm
I took the belly down to final dimensions, took it tight and lost a couple of mm at the centre so weight lost, still wide by 3 or 4mm so I'll keep that on and just round.
It's got a nice even flex and bounce throughout and I am feeling quite happy and hopeful compared to earlier, I was thinking following the twist was a bad idea and was going to chuck the towel in, but how it worked out with the angle to the back it has left extra belly wood on one side so should bend in the right direction, seems to flex that way already, and with leaving on the extra bit of width I should be able to control the direction of bend better when tillering, here's hoping anyway. :) no real need to muck around with heat now.
Next step, dig out and glue in knots, round off belly and clean up back, then start to tiller. I think I made good ground today and glad I didn't chuck in.  :BB
D-flex seems to of lessened, put up against straight edge it has a little over an inch.
(Also found a pic of top view of stave, leather tie marks where I sawed off end with split sapwood.)
 R.D.

 
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: willie on April 03, 2017, 01:41:00 pm
Quote
I took the belly down to final dimensions, took it tight and lost a couple of mm at the centre so weight lost

Are you working from straight from the printed plan to final dimension?  I have learned (the hard way), to leave a little extra at the center handle area, as it comes around last during the tillering process. I actually would hold off on the belly rounding in the center third of the bow, until I had a chance to look at the overall bend from a distance.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Lucasade on April 03, 2017, 01:47:56 pm
Will - pm sent
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on April 03, 2017, 02:14:10 pm
I did have some time helping a bowyer for a weekend a couple of years back and liked his method, and from chatting a few years back on the Ewbs site some bowyers like to get some movement central(first bend to the bow) and work out to the limbs and limb tips, albeit only slightly moving.  I think I'd like to work this way, centre outwards for a full compass bow, that's how I plan to work it, just my preference.
So I'm going to round it all off, get it moving slightly centre working outwards. That's my plan.

 R.D.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: willie on April 03, 2017, 02:23:24 pm
Quote
I think I'd like to work this way, centre outwards for a full compass bow.

Sounds like you have a plan of attack in place. I did not see a forum at the EWBS site, is it still active?
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on April 03, 2017, 02:33:22 pm
I'm not sure, I would of thought so. It's been a couple of years or so for me.
My well wishes to them and hope they are all doing fine.  :OK
 R.D.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: WillS on April 03, 2017, 03:06:25 pm
The forum is hidden, and can't be accessed unless you're a paid member. 

I've not been a member for a year or so now, but most of the forum discussion has moved to Facebook, as there are only 2 or 3 EWBS members who don't use Facebook​.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on April 05, 2017, 11:55:51 am
I've got the belly rounded and I cleaned up the back. I have 5mm sapwood thickness.
I fixed on the horns, sorry to say I made a right pigs ear of it, drilled the horn wonky and more glue than good fit. I used a copious amount of superglue and activator and stood it upright, they will have to do.  O:)
Some pics and a couple of knots, I'll be keeping it stiffer here but do they look like they would pose any problems?

R.D.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on April 05, 2017, 12:01:09 pm
...one more pic, this is going to be the bottom limb. (same as tree growth I think :D), did I do right following the grain this way or will this cause me problems? (I took a little out with heat)
 I got reasonable tips and centre string alignment, all said and done, just for my knowledge, how crucial does it need to be dead centre?
And for side nocks, the groove left or right for the bottom and top nocks?
Thanks for any insight,
 R.D.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: WillS on April 05, 2017, 04:15:05 pm
Sidenocks can be any side, as long as they're opposite, but the usual way is to have the top nock cut on the left, looking at the bows belly.

Don't cut them like Victorian nocks, with tile saws and files.  It leaves a deep, narrow groove and is a nightmare.  Use a good sharp knife, and go into the horn from two angles until they meet, with just a hint of the bow tip wood showing through.  That said, if you're going to use modern string loops instead of slipknots on both ends, a deeper narrower groove is probably safer... 

Dead center is definitely not crucial.  All that really matters is the bow isn't trying to turn inside out on you as you brace it.  This is another reason why choosing which way up is daft before it's tillered.  Any sideways bend or off-centre can be used to bring the string nearer the side of the bow you'll rest the arrow on, essentially reducing the importance of arrow spine. 
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on April 05, 2017, 05:47:00 pm
OK, that's great. Thank you WillS.  :OK
(I doubt I'll take the groove down to wood, I did a pretty sloppy job of the fit, luckily though where I drilled out the horns wonky I'm left with a lot of horn on the corresponding opposite sides, plenty to play with without having to go too deep).

  R.D.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: WillS on April 05, 2017, 07:01:46 pm
You have to go down to the wood.  If that's buffalo horn, and you try cutting sidenocks and relying just on the horn at above 100lb it's guaranteed to split and fail on you.  That's why the originals were all cut to the wood - the wood of the bow tip is what supports the downward pressure of the string loop, and the horn supports the crushing pressure which would otherwise bite into the wood.

The worse the fit, the more important it is to get the bow tip exposed, otherwise it will never work.  Even using cow horn it's fairly crucial to get into the wood, otherwise you're asking the tiny amount of horn below the groove to hold the entire force of the string.

If you've made a dodgy job of fitting them (and to be honest, if you've used buffalo horn!) I'd be inclined to forget sidenocks and just go Victorian.  It's a recipe for heartbreak otherwise.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on April 05, 2017, 07:12:49 pm
OK WillS, I'm inclined to agree then, thanks. 8) I'm low on string material too and I have strings that I can reuse so better to be practical. I must say though this white buffalo ox horn seems a lot tougher than the regular buffalo horn, I've had a job drilling it and sawing it. If I redo them or next bow and do a better job(I know where I messed up) I'll definitely give them a try.
Thanks again, appreciated.
 
 R.D.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on April 06, 2017, 08:11:38 am
Sorry to say I'm shelving this bow for a while. I got to a couple of inches and the twist is throwing it offset and string alignment has gone a little awol and it needs some correction with steam and I can't really spare much more time on this. I may start on my more straight forward stave when I have the opportunity and go back to this when I get a little more savvy. Where the twist starts there a knot that complicates the issue for me too. 
So I'm quitting while I'm ahead for the time being.
Thanks for the help and advice and I have found this good practice and look forward to future bow building with enthusiasm.

 R.D.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Bob W. on April 06, 2017, 11:07:33 am
Come now Ruddy you can do it, we are watching and waiting. In all seriousness I think you have a good handle on it with a lot of excellent guidance to boot!
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on April 06, 2017, 11:35:23 am
OK  :D, I've got a spot of decorating to do for someone, and get some archery in,  and that'll give me a break and a think about what I need to do. I'm at a stage that needs pondering and I'm being a little impatient and in danger of messing it up. I'm at a good stage and shouldn't be in a rush. I'll set up my steamer for its first outing and try and tweak the alignment, maybe take a little twist out, over the weekend, (my cheap rubbish heat gun packed up) .
Thanks Bob W. for the encouragment,  8) I'll carry on with this bow. The longer I take the better seasoned my other yew and ash staves will be too.

 R.D.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: WillS on April 06, 2017, 12:28:20 pm
It's possible that you're being too cautious and hanging around on a long string for a bit too long.  The long string, early tillering stage is really only to check that nothing crazy will happen when you brace it.  At the heavier weights, it's far better for the bow and far easier for the bowyer to get it up to a full brace as soon as possible. 

As an example - in an ideal world you'd take your roughed out bow (which should be virtually finished before it's even seen a string) and put a tight long string on it, pulling it to about 6" or so.  If there's no horrendous hinge, or one limb isn't wildly stiffer than the other, it's on with the short string at full brace.  That initial brace shape should tell you almost everything you need to know - where the weak spots are, where the stiff spots are, what the string alignment is doing and so on.  You unbrace, sort the issues out, brace it again.  Keep going until that brace shape is perfect - movement in the mid-limbs, nothing happening in the handle and reasonably stiff tips.  That's when it goes onto the tiller and you start working it down to draw length.

Otherwise, with a long string you're being fooled the whole time - the tips will look stiffer than they really are, the middle will look weaker, the string alignment will be off compared to how it will end up and so on.

The only person who knows what that stave wants to do is you, but if you let the long string guide you down weird paths you'll end up having no idea what should be happening, and will start forcing what you want to happen onto the stave. 

Remember that countless bows have been made with HUGE amounts of twist, bend, warp and so on.  Your stave looks really clean and pretty straight considering you opted to follow every little grain movement. 
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on April 06, 2017, 12:57:50 pm
Thank you WillS for the long string advice, at a push I might be able to get it on a low brace now although I think it would incur some set in places (and flips on to one side a fair bit)   as it's moving nicely throughout the bow, it's got a nice bouncy spring to it. 
I could carry on and remove off one side to steer the twist but I feel I would lose a fair bit of wood and draw weight, although that is a secondary consideration, and the string alignment is offset to the opposite side of the bow hand, which would not be good.
I reckon if I hit it with a spot of steam and tweak it in a better direction I won't need to remove so much wood off or go thin on one side.
I've marked a spot that I'm going to hit that will allow me to slightly de-twist and align in one move. Shouldn't take long and can get that done tomorrow, I'll then leave it be for three days(I think that's the recommended time for wood to recover) and back on tiller. I want to try out my wallpaper steam stripper too.  :D
This the plan in action..   :BB

 R.D.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on April 07, 2017, 07:50:57 am
Unsuccessful first attempt steaming, slipped under clamps which I failed to notice.
Had another go, didn't bother about the twist and just went for simpler string alignment, so far so good and seems good enough to carry on with. I'll even out some wood and get it back on tiller in 3or4 days. 

 


... That all seems to of worked, I also took the whole bow down a couple of dimensions(may still get 110+) to square it all up and exclude a couple of knots so now have more movement mostly throughout the top limb. I also put on new nocks to get a better angle on them, did a better job but still not great. Put a string on and gave it a little draw and all bending together in the right direction.
Just going to wait until I really feel like continuing, I've had my fill for little a while and I am at a good stage with a good look forward.
Thanks again Bob W. and WillS for not letting me jack it in and for the helpful advice, things are looking a lot rosier.  :)

 
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on April 10, 2017, 10:46:04 am
Just wanting to check, when tillering the bow I have the bow resting dead centre and where on the string should it be drawn, dead centre or an inch up from centre?
(Got it drawing 3 or so inches as it is on a short string but not on any brace, so next visit I'll shimmy it all even and go for brace hight sometime soon).

 R.D.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: WillS on April 10, 2017, 02:05:59 pm
I hold it on the tiller dead centre, and pull dead centre and just make sure one limb is a tad stiffer.  Then when it's down to 28" (which is where I stop tillering all my heavy bows) it gets the last bit of checking in the hand, flipping it over a few times and tweaking the hand and arrow positions until everything looks right. 

Everybody does it differently I think, so it's down to what you prefer.  I could never feel comfortable tillering them off-centre, and every time I see somebody post tiller pics where the bow is held somewhere odd it just looks awful to me  :P
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on April 10, 2017, 02:15:05 pm
Thanks WillS, thought I'd check that, I'll be pulling central on the string then as I'll be using a make do tiller tree on the floor of the garage mostly with no marked backlines for guidance so that makes life easier, and for eye judgement, that's until I start getting somewhere, then I mount the tree in the workbench, otherwise a pain keep swapping around to set up for removing wood.
I really have no idea what weight it will make.

Thanks,

 R.D.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on April 11, 2017, 09:11:15 am
Here's where I am, a pic on low brace and a pic on a 10" draw, and the bow after untraced.
Any advice from here appreciated,
 
 R.D.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: WillS on April 11, 2017, 09:14:31 am
From the middle of each limb to the tips they're both waaaaay too stiff.  Get them working much harder! 
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on April 11, 2017, 12:57:38 pm
Thanks WillS, yep, I've done minimal mid limb out, just got the centre moving now I'll work the mid limbs and outward limbs This is first time on brace and any draw.
Thanks, just happy to of got it on a brace and all moving right direction, and will finish it..but I went a dip too low around a knot and lost a fair bit of depth and I really can't see it making a warbow weight, it will make a lighter bow weight(maybe 60-70) and feels a nice bit of wood so something I will carry on for someone else for their interest. So a success in that respect but I don't think the final bow will be for this forum section, so I'd say an end to this thread on the warbow section and when finished I'll post this bow in the bow section of the forum.
Thanks all, not a disaster,  and I feel I prevailed to a degree knowing it will be a working bow, albeit not a warbow weght,   and have learned a few things and what to watch out for in the future working with this bit of yew. (incase I get lucky and do hit above 80@31 I will post it here).
Thanks again,

 R.D.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Del the cat on April 11, 2017, 02:46:31 pm
Dunno if it's one of those optical dillusions ;) but it looks like there is a great thickspot mid limb on each limb.
Run finger and thumb along each limb or check with calipers... see pic red arrows look thick, yellow look thin.
Del
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on April 11, 2017, 03:09:25 pm
You are right Del to a degree, both limbs need thinning out there, but it also looks more due to slight snaking on both limbs in these areas. Also I haven't rounded off as much there and the light throws a shadow more.  I've mainly been working the centre, I was a little overzealous with the wrong side of my shinto rasp around a knot on the right inner mid limb and caused a slight hinge just under it so I had to go back and reduce the centre, where I lost the warbow potential I reckon :P... Should of been more careful. Oh well... Lighter than intended bow happens.  :D
I will be working these areas next visit. I got to first upgrade to a proper tillering tree system, another cause of mistakes. Make do won't do I found.

 R.D.
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on April 13, 2017, 07:19:53 am
I've got it to 20" on the tiller, I know I've got to get midlimb out working more, I've been working to get it drawing even to hear and will now work mid-outer limbs together.
I weighed it at 20" and came in a little over 50lbs, does anyone have an idea what possible estimate weight it could make at 31"?
Going to let it rest for a little while, and I've marked where I'm going to next remove wood.

 R.D
(pics removed)
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Del the cat on April 13, 2017, 09:27:21 am
About 75# but prob less as you get the outers coming round.
If you are pulling to 50# you are right on track to make a 50# bow as you bring the outers round. That's why I'm forever saying pull it to you target weight from the start.
Del
Title: Re: Grain orientation on stave
Post by: Ruddy Darter on April 13, 2017, 09:32:21 am
OK thanks Del, if I got 65+ that's alright, something I'd see as a result anyway. That mistake around the knot proved costly and I'm kicking myself a bit over that (along with a few other mess ups) I had nice depth on the belly up to that point.  At least less chance of doing the same again.

I'm not really after a bow of that weight myself, maybe I'll use it for indoor season so I reckon I'll put it in storage for now,  also someone/someones at the club may be interested in a lighter bow with a shorter draw if they do I'll then tailor it to their liking, it won't get wasted either way (will post in  main bow section when done)
Thanks again all for help and advice, I think I'll finish the post on this note.   8)

 R.D.