Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Horn Bows => Topic started by: loefflerchuck on April 04, 2017, 12:21:29 pm
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I've made my own glue from sinew scraps and hide many times. I've always heard 12 hour glue made at home is far superior to commercial glue. From my experience a 315 gram strength glue I buy from a furniture supply works better than my slow cook glue. I would love some help with making better glue.
My method. 1-soak sinew scraps in a few changes of dish soap and hot water to try and remove oils. 2 cook glue for 10-12 hours at about 160f for first poring. I've brought the glue to a rolling boil to skim off the bubbles of impurities that come to the top. Sometimes I have not. Just straining it through cloth and screen to dry. The glue is very clear and looks good but does not hold like the 315g glue I buy for high stressed horn bows.
I am asking on hornbow page because I need the best glue. Even the worst glue I have made holds sinew to wood. Only the best splices horn and holds sinew to a huge reflexed horn bow. I would love some composite makers help on this.
One more question. Would making your glue at high altitude yield a better and more pure glue? At say 8000 or even 10,000 feet water boils at a lower temp so the impurities could be skimmed off at a lower boiling temp.
Thanks
Chuck
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I make my sinew and hide glue the very same way but do not boil it towards the end.I have used a canvas sizing brand glue too on one backward C shape cured bow.The horn to core joinery held good to brace from extreme near handle reflex using the tepeliks.The usual time it should break apart.The sinew tore though.It was cured for over 2 years.I have not used my first pouring yet of sinew and hide glue to comment on.I'm personally going to try air bladder glue to mix in too.
Can't comment farther on the subject but there are others on here who can.I think they are mixing in home made air bladder glue too.
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Thanks Beadman. The last 2 batches I made I did not boil towards the end. The sinew tore? I heard of that happening one other time but the sinew he used was very crushed in processing. I think it was pounded with a rock. Did your sinew actually tear or did it lift on a seam?
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Actually Chuck I sent my horn bow cured to England to Mike to tiller for me.I was stigmatized by making those tepeliks.He had been through it before making horn bows.I'm sure he'll comment on the glue question.He showed me a picture of what happened.It looked like it tore.Tips are'nt set back near enough.First attempt over 2 yeas ago.It's 52" TTT.Hickory/horn/sinew/mulberry sijahs.Next one tips are set back a lot better.Mike has that now too to sinew.Ironwood/horn/sinew/edge grain red elm horn inserted tips sijahs.48" TTT.
(http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad41/Beadman1/SAM_1008_zpsou7uivx7.jpg) (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/Beadman1/media/SAM_1008_zpsou7uivx7.jpg.html)
(http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad41/Beadman1/SAM_1009_zpsr4at0akb.jpg) (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/Beadman1/media/SAM_1009_zpsr4at0akb.jpg.html)
(http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad41/Beadman1/SAM_1010_zpswtn4zc0r.jpg) (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/Beadman1/media/SAM_1010_zpswtn4zc0r.jpg.html)
Sizing that horn I used very thin multiple sizings to get into every crevice.Sanding inbetween.
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This was bow before it was braced.
(http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad41/Beadman1/DSCN1346_zpslzsmqh2d.jpg) (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/Beadman1/media/DSCN1346_zpslzsmqh2d.jpg.html)
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(http://i920.photobucket.com/albums/ad41/Beadman1/DSCN1347_zpsf5hh1zvx.jpg) (http://s920.photobucket.com/user/Beadman1/media/DSCN1347_zpsf5hh1zvx.jpg.html)
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I think you are getting it too hot.
I make my glue at no higher temperature than 55 deg Celsius/131f. I also only heat sinew glue for 6 hours.
I don't use hide as it is so greasy.
Air bladders from the Yellow Croaker are superb for glue, they 'melt' at lower temperature and in less time. 3 - 4 hours is enough.
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I think you are getting it too hot.
I make my glue at no higher temperature than 55 deg Celsius/131f. I also only heat sinew glue for 6 hours.
I don't use hide as it is so greasy.
Air bladders from the Yellow Croaker are superb for glue, they 'melt' at lower temperature and in less time. 3 - 4 hours is enough.
Great to know... thank you... I've set my glue to almost 70C :\
I think my hornbow looks kind of like that... ...
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Pretty interesting topic you have going Chuck I wanted to ask you on the 315 g glue what your exsperience gel time was I used some 250 g for the first two layers on my curent bow & found it had to quick of gel time for me , that yellow croaker glue sounds interesting thanks for sharing that , Mike if you get a chance can you comment on gel time etc on it ?
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Beadman:
When looking on the crack of the sinew - I think that there should be more isue of the sinew (too thin layer) ....than glue ?
IMHO (not even first horn bow finished here ;) ) but At least conclusions from extensive experience in other composites (custom windsurfing boards - glass, carbon, kevlar, sandwich composites, vacuuming, etc ) ... glue is only a filler .... the fibers are doing the job - tension
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I think you are getting it too hot.
I make my glue at no higher temperature than 55 deg Celsius/131f. I also only heat sinew glue for 6 hours.
I don't use hide as it is so greasy.
Air bladders from the Yellow Croaker are superb for glue, they 'melt' at lower temperature and in less time. 3 - 4 hours is enough.
Mike....The amount of water used then cannot be much at those temps and time periods.I'm in the process of getting air bladders.Yellow croaker and catfish.Will use lower temps in the future.
gorazd....Yes the sinew may have been compromised before applying it too.Or tore so to speak.I know on that bow I put far too much sizing on over the finished job.Reason for cracking on the top layer too.
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There are plenty of videos showing the process of making sinew/hide/or air bladder glue but not of it being put to the test.I think as clear as possible/no odor product is a good indicator of strength.
I'd have to agree about hide glue being a bit more greasy.
Pre soaking the glue in a mild mixture of lye to plump it up to break down quicker I have not tried yet.Could easily be something to that.
These tests being done on the strength of the glue.Are they wood edge glueing then seeing if delamination occurs?
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Beadman :
I dont know how others are doing - I only looked at some videos on Youtube .... one Turks obviously dont remove shorter (and damaged) fibres from bigger bundle ,... but seems that Koreans remove shorter ones - and put them in thin uniform layers
So I washed the sinew strands (to get them very very soft and pliable) and peeled the wet strands to get very small diameter (less than 1mm) and removed every shorter strand - very time consuming - so ALL my strands were equall length... I noticed that quite a few strands are not so strong as other - I tested with puling with small force and removed breaked ones
Sinew which was naturaly dried (from my butcher source - cow, young beef) does have less damaged fibers than sinew I have got from pet-shop (Ostrich and cow sinew - tendons) which obviusly was in some hot air drying oven ... even when on first look they seemed OK (when breaking them apart in dryed state) -> some of them just poped when I wetted them !
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I don't have a lot of experience with this but when I was cooking up my dog chew hide glue I watched carefully for oil/grease floating on the top and there was none. I'm thinking that they maybe do some kind of treatment to get rid of the oils. Less stink for when the dog chews one on the living room couch ;)
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Mike....I hope your right about this yellow croaker.Reducing easier then sinew.
My sinew before heating it were scraps of course[waste] and reduced very thin.
I will cut up these yellow croaker bladders very small to find out.Then use less water and heat for a shorter period of time.
DC...I think the dog chew things are soaked in some sort of chemical to make them more pleasant.What usually comes up floating when ever I do sinew is just a little foam in the center of the pot.Not much and nothing very foul at all.It gets skimmed off.
gorazd....Dried sinew tendons can naturally dry very hard just from air exposure.I've always pounded my sinew with a hammer and on a metal door weight too.Reducing stable strong strands to less then 1/16".Same length piles divided up into 4 or 5 piles.It could easily be the back of the bow should of had more of a crown.The core was slightly crowned and a flat grain belly piece of wood.
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Where did you score the yellow croaker bladders from Ed?
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Even the worst glue I have made holds sinew to wood. Only the best splices horn and holds sinew to a huge reflexed horn bow
could this be because the glue on a horn bow has to stretch more?
Perhaps different batches of glue could be pre-tested for their ability to stretch as far as required.
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Aaron I will let Ed answer but I just ordered a 1 lb. From Amazon about $70
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Yes Aaron...there abouts what Ritch said shipping and all.That price for a pound.12 large 5 to 6 inch circumference bladders.Erlin yellow croaker.
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It's $$ for glue but would imagine you could get a fair amount of bows out of a pound one of the smaller crock pots I have will maintain 135 F is the lowest I can get on temp .
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Wow, one pound should yield a whole lotta glue!
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Ya I know it is a fair amount of bladders for glue.I really just plant to mix it in with the sinew glue some like 1 to 4 at first to see what that does then adjust accordingly.
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Good topic Chuck. I do like you, except I don't boil at the end and I cook for longer, over 24 hours.
I haven't had any issues, but I wouldn't say I've made any truly STRESSED bows.
I've heard of some composite bowyers starting with thin hide glue for sizing, then adding
some other types of glue for the actual gluing.
I've also ordered some yellow croaker bladders recently, they have not arrived yet, but I've been wanting to try it out for a while. Like beadman, I want to try it mixed with sinew glue, but I want to try it on its own too. Hit me up I'll send you a couple
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The 1 pound of croaker bladders might yield enough glue to do maybe 2 to 3 bows at the most if it's the only glue used from my findings here.That's why I will parcel it out into a mixture with high quality first pouring sinew glue of which I have more of to stretch it out.
Reasons for having a slower gelling glue around is for different application situations and degrees of strength.I have no way of proving bladder glue is stronger then sinew glue from my own use.Nor do I have proof of it being more moisture resistant either like I've read about it,but I will say this I've read those statements from many reputable horn bow makers making the same claim from their experiences.Again I usually take the common denominator info to come to my conclusions.
I've just made some croaker glue from 1/4 pound of dried bladders.It might yield around an 8 to 10 fluid ounce mixture for sinewing.That gives me a reference as to how much these bladders will yield.I reduced it the same way in a double boiler type system.Never letting the glue get above 130 to 140 degrees over a stretch of 6 to 8 hours.Making this glue can all depend on how much water you put in with your bladders or sinew for it to be thick enough to gel reasonably well.Too much water and you've got a longer evaporating time.Not going over 130 to 140 degrees is a safe guard not to weaken it with too much heat.Into the 170 range is too hot in my mind especially over a long period of 6 to 8 hours.
You see videos of hide glue quick like prepared boiled in an hour and a half,but no talk of where their going to use it.My guess is not on horn bows.It might suffice on a less stressed self bow/fletching and nock wrappings I'm sure.I'm not taking that chance.That's just me.
I won't make glue from sinew or bladders letting the heat get over 140 degrees.I'm sure there's experiences contrary to my findings but as for me I'll go with what I see doing myself.
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Chuck....This is actually your thread.Sorry it looks like I've taken over on it but the interest is there from me anyway.
I'm seeing this bladder glue take close to 2 hours to gel in the frig.Back out in the room temperature it un gels to a degree.I'm still air drying it to use.Fooling with it it really is a sticky glue.I've read a possibility that if the air bladders are force dried or oven baked it can degrade the glueing qualities from it too.Air drying them is the best.
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Wow! Okay let me try to catch up. Thanks everybody for the help. Beadman, nice bow. Does not look like too big of a fix. I am lucky enough to get long elk leg tendons. Over 20" and can cover the entire bending limb.
Mike, I may have to get some croaker bladders. When I worked on a fishing boat in the Northwest I spent a couple hours on the steam in cutting bladders out of rockfish. I think because of the water temp? the glue I made would not jell. I finally got it to dry after a few days but would not use it on a bow. I use it for natural paints over sinew.
Stickbender, I have never used bladder glue so I am used to quick jell time. I have not had a problem with it.
Willie, Wood and sinew bows are not really putting the sinew to work if your only drawing a 50" bow 26" or so.
Ryan, Thanks for the offer. Maybe next trade bundle we exchange. I've been pretty slow getting at that stash of ash. I only cut 10 arrow blanks and no cores yet.
Next batch I'll try the low temp. I have a entire shopping bag of sinew scraps.
One last question. Without posting a link can anybody give me a credible source for good bladder glue ready to go? I've seen some but when your bow takes 8 months to make I don't like to take chances.
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Chuck,
I have some carp air bladders dried and chopped into tiny pieces. I was going to make glue from it but I'll probably never get around to trying it. I'd be more than happy to send them to you if you wanted to try them out.
I've made a few batches of sinew glue in a crock pot. I let it cook overnight on low heat which is still pretty warm. I use very clean sinew only and shred it into very fine fibers. I don't get any fat on the surface. After I'm done cooking it I strain it and there isn't much left of the sinew. I've got a lot of scraps saved up and need to make some glue sometime soon. I've never had a problem with my glue but my sinew backed bows are no where near as high stressed as yours are.
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Thanks Clint. Maybe we can make a trade once again. I'm getting more useful information than I expected.
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No trade necessary Chuck. I'll also send some of my dried sinew glue for you to test out. I took a couple pictures of what I make my glue from. I only save the clean white fibers. If a piece looks greasy at all it gets cut off or thrown away.
(http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv22/Outlawstaves/20170406_230137_zps1zrquisy.jpg) (http://s666.photobucket.com/user/Outlawstaves/media/20170406_230137_zps1zrquisy.jpg.html)
(http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv22/Outlawstaves/20170406_230219_zpsofr7w1sx.jpg) (http://s666.photobucket.com/user/Outlawstaves/media/20170406_230219_zpsofr7w1sx.jpg.html)
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Just got home for the week end and my yellow croaker air bladders & clarified 192G hide glue arrived ,these air bladders are huge like pan cakes my package weighed 17 oz looking foward to cooking up some air bladder glue like Ed , hey Ed did your dried glue peaces come out clear opaque color ?
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192 G clarified hide glue
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Ritch....The thinner stuff is clear and some of the thicker may get a little opague.It's still drying.
Yea I told ya those bladders are kinda large.Probably 12 of them?There will be a touch of fat on them.Which tells us that maybe they were'nt oven dried but air dried which is what a person wants.That 192 G stands for what?A strength of some sort?Nice bag of it though around a pound?
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Yep they measure the natural material glues that gel in Gram strength ( G,GS ) & 1.1 ratio it's really not a measurement of cured strength a 192 G or a 325 G glue will pull wood off the joint before the glue gives up ,the way I understand it is that it has to do with gel density & time the lower the number the longer the gel time I read some where that the rabbit glue & fish glue is rated around 192 G but I have no idea what air bladder glue is but it has to be a low number if I have time I will look it up over the week end.
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I learn a lot about natural glues from the guys that make musical instruments they take glue making to a new level , but a interesting note on GS is they say is most people that use a glue with a GS above 250 G water there glue down to much in order to get a thinner viscosity & end up making a weaker glue the Gram strength rating system is based on a 1 to 1 glue to water Ratio , they say this 192 G clarified glue is the cats ass , long working time and good strength , thanks for posting this thread Chuck interesting !!
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I bought some hide glue years ago from Eugene Thordahl
http://www.bjornhideglue.com/
Remember asking him for a recommendation for my application, and he sent 251.
As for sinew specifically, I dunno, but he might have some good ideas.
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They sell quality glue that's where I got this clarified glue from I had the regular 251 before it was just a little to quick gelling for my liking but good glue the 192 gives you a little more wiggle room I think , they all work just what you like I guess.
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192 gives you a little more wiggle room I think
good to know, thanks Richie.
Would be interested to hear if anyone experiences issues mixing types of glue. Sound like a better option than the chemical additives sometimes mentioned.
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Thanks again everybody. I got so many more answers than I asked. Now I don't need to ask in the future.
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Im thinking of trying like Mike said about 130 deg for 4-5 hrs for these yellow croakers Im going to soak for 24 hrs and then put them in the high speed blender but Im trying to figure bladder to water ratio for only cooking 4 hrs maybe 1 to 5 any body got any thoughts on ratio ?
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Should work ok for ya.Heating at 130 if there's too much water yet it won't hurt to go a couple more hours.Pulverizing it into a mush is a good idea.You'll get every bit of glue out of it.
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Ed do you think the 1 to 5 bladder to water is good place to start for 4-5 hr cook time at 135 Deg or do you think I'm light on water wasn't it 1 to 10 at the higher temp ?
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I put enough water to cover and then some is about all I can say.You'll know by the viscosity of the glue if you've got too much water or not enough.
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Ok thanks I just have to wait tell my wife isn't around for the day , she would try to take over & tell me I'm cooking it wrong >:D
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Thanks again Clint. That is a bigger bag of glue and bladder than it looked in the photo.
I had seperated out the clean fine fibers in the past for a couple batches. I'm going to start doing that again. The unclean sinew scraps I'll use to make glue for backing wood bows. Ending at a higher temp to boil off the fat.
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Good luck with it Chuck. I hope it works for you.