Primitive Archer
Main Discussion Area => Bows => Topic started by: Marin on May 04, 2017, 12:05:17 am
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Well , as I am adding poly to my board bow, I decided to begin roughing out a stage for a bendy handle osage bow. I've attached picture of the stage: about 63" in length, 4 inches X 3 inches in its cross section. I got it as a gift from my uncle in Virginia who knows another bowyer. He told me he got it over a year or two ago so it is probably well seasoned. I'm going to try to us the second ring from the top as the back.
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And here I am beginning through out the bow with a hatchet. I am focusing right now on getting the width down before I focus of flattening what is to be the bottom of the stave. Then I will chase a ring.
Sorry if my hatchet work is cringe worthy. I'm not making is bow with only a hatchet, just going to use it to rough it out.
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One last picture of my hatchet work. So I follow the grain, I'm making sure the band of heartwood and sapwood is staying constant in width down the entire length of the stave.
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I'm looking forward to seeing your finished bow. I'm so new that I have barely been introduced to my first stave. Want a race? Kidding!
:BB
Annie
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Pretty good looking stick of osage. I would only remove belly wood after you have your ring chased. That way, if you run into trouble chasing the second ring, you can always pick one deeper without running out of wood thick enough to make a bow. It is hard to say what you might run into once the ring chasing begins...
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Pretty good looking stick of osage. I would only remove belly wood after you have your ring chased. That way, if you run into trouble chasing the second ring, you can always pick one deeper without running out of wood thick enough to make a bow. It is hard to say what you might run into once the ring chasing begins...
good advice there Marin, especially since it still has Bark on. It's really hard to know what's under that bark, hopefully not bug damage. Also easy to violate a ring then have to chase a lower one. I'm certainly not a Osage expert have only roughed out 2 none finished but I think I'd start by chasing ring at very least rough it out wide and leaves belly.
Annie I know you are just joking about the racing, but you will soon find out. There really isn't any raceing building these bows. After you do several you will get faster, but probably at certain points take even more time. I love your enthusiasm though. I'm not trying to scold you, just hoping you realize your going to bring life back to a dead stick. To make it look like a bow can go fast, to give it a new, long life takes a little time and attention to detail. I very much look forward to seeing both of your bows.
Bjrogg
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But to chase the ring, I was going to take off the sapwood with a hatchet and then rasp and scrape down to the ring, which requires me clamping down the stave. To do that, wouldn't I need to have a flattish belly? Or can I chase a ring (carefully) with a hatchet?
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Pretty good looking stick of osage. I would only remove belly wood after you have your ring chased. That way, if you run into trouble chasing the second ring, you can always pick one deeper without running out of wood thick enough to make a bow. It is hard to say what you might run into once the ring chasing begins...
+ Ditto
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But can I chase a ring entirely with a hatchet?
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I couldn't nor would I try myself. Do you have a draw knife?
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I don't have a draw knife (it was part of the reason I was using a hatchet). I was planning on debarking it with a hatchet, then relapsing down through the sapwood to the growth rings before scraping, but that would require flattening the belly first.
I'm just really asking if I can slightly flatten the belly so the log can be clamped down?
But anyways, I did some more work today, he entire stave is approximately 2.5 " in width (going to about 2" at one point). I am realizing that just using a regular store bought wood cutting hatchet is what is making this hard for me but for right now it'll do as I don't have a draw knife.
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There is no way I could chase a ring with a hatchet. I have only chased rings on 15 or 20 Osage staves. I use the hatchet to debarked and take most, but usually not all of the sapwood off. Then switch over to a draw knife to chase which ever ring I am going for. I think it would be very hard not to violate a growth ring using a hatchet.
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Chasing a ring is not easy the first time. Go back and read every thread you can find about chasing rings. So far I tried it once and I quit just before I ruined the stave(billets in this case) Probably time I climbed back on the horse. Take all the advice offered and pay attention. That's a nice stave, don't mess it up. Find a draw knife. I don't think it has to be a real good one for chasing rings. There are also a lot of threads on here about finding drawknives. Maybe read them too.
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I found several usable and 1 great vintage drawknives in some antique stores. The best one I gave $25 dollars because it was in too good of shape not to buy, and the booth owner was not there to haggle with, or probably could have got it for less.
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Chasing a ring is one of those things that requires practice. Check out some YouTube videos and read what you can. Then get a good drawknife. Get a heavy bench vise or some other sturdy device for clamping your stave down so you can work on it. I would practice on some scrap pieces first. Ring chasing is a little tricky, but kind of enjoyable once you get a feel for it.
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I can get a draw knife I just don't have a shave horse specifically.
I understand what chasing a ring is and I can tell the difference between late wood and early wood but I have never done it before. I just don;t have any scrap wood (wood that cannot be turned into a bow) to practice on. Could I perhaps practice on a thick round dowel or should I just plan to back this bow with rawhide just in case?
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Unfortunately I don't have very many antique stores or flea markets around my area, and the one great antique store I went to didn't have or even seem to know what a draw knife was. Do the modern draw knives still work pretty well?
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I would think a new drawknife would definitely be better than no draw knife. I am lucky and already had an old one from my father so did not need to buy one. Lots of antique stores around my parts so stumble across one every now and then.
I like to think old steel can possibly be better than "some" newer steel so when I stumble across a vintage drawknife that is in good usable shape at a reasonable price I am going to pick it up.
I am sure there are excellent ones being made today, but probably some cheap knock offs also.Like everything else you will probably get what you pay for.
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There are always a bunch of draw knives on ebay
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First off, I am no expert on anything. I have however chased a ring on black locust with no drawknife. If that was my stave, I wouldn't want to ruin it. My thought: if you are planning to chase second ring, practice chasing the first. I tried it with a big hunting knife that you can hold in two hands sort of like a drawknife...
I also found a drawknife made from an old scythe with an extra handle attached - useful tool.
By the way - what a great problem to have: a beautiful piece of osage, wondering how to handle it!
G
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I would get the bark and sapwood off the stave before you narrow it any more. There is almost always a surprise under the bark on osage, seldom good, that you might want to have some wiggle room to work around.
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I don't know how good or bad the new drawknives are in other places but I have a new drawknife and it works great, perhaps even better than an antique one that belonged to my great great grandfathe who was, I believe, a carpenter.
Chasing a ring isn't high scence, just take it slow.
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springbuck suggested personally that using a nice machete would do and it doesn't require a shaving horse. I can even use it as a pull knife. I might have one in my shed that I could use
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Any knife/machete etc will work if you can get an edge on it that you can use and control. A draw knife typically has a single bevel edge. Some use bevel up, some use bevel down. It is all about learning what you can control, what works for you. Some like their edges real sharp others like the not so much. There is no absolute, but I don't think I could chase a ring with a hatchet.
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Marin looking foward to your build who cares if it takes another 10 months atleast you will get another nice bow , rushing things can bite you in the butt atleast it has me , I dont know if I would try the hatchet I have only chased about 12 osage staves & wouldnt fell confident with it but thats just me , good lighting is key for me seeing late wood early etc you could pick up a draw knife pretty cheap look at garage sales ,antique stores etc I have picked them as cheap as $6 a good scraper helps too , there is a little bit of a learning curve on the first one but after that it gets easer & enjoyable , some times I dont feel like working on a bow and chase rings for therapy (-P
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I think mak'n is as fun as shoot'n.....:)
DBar
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I forgot to mention you really don't need a shave hoarse I just clamp mine in a vice and put one end on blocks
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I might just stick with rasp and scraper on the back.
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Good luck wit your chase the rasp & scraper would work for you but might be a little slow you could just rasp down to the early wood above the ring you want & use the scraper from there , osage can surprise you as far as being seasoned I recently chased down a stave that I thought was seasoned ruffed the bow down and checked the moister & it was still green it was off the stump well over a year so I hung it on the wall in 50% RH & it's still taking nice reflex after a couple months inside some hedge can really hold on to moister !
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Have you asked on our Trading Post about a draw knife?
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Also went over to amazon and took a look they have some Draw Knifes starting at $22 one of those would really help with chasing your first rings !
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PatB,
I would ask but I don't have anything of value to trade.
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Also, I wasn't talking. About only using a scraper on the back but using the rasp to take off the sapwood and maybe scuff up the first ring and then using a scraper to finish it up. It might be the best thing to do for my first ring chasing as I I have never used a draw knife before.
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Go for it after your first you will know exactly what tools you need , exsperience is the best teacher !
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I debarked the stave today and even took off some sapwood with a rasp. I am practicing "chasing a ring" with the sapwood as I take it off and so far it seems easier than I thought but what do I know ;)
Here's some pics of my progress
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Every body chases rings differently but the way I usually do it is sand down the end of the stave so I can get a clear view of the rings & choose the one I want with some wiggle room to go deaper if there are any suprises on that ring and I chase down to the ring above that one & depending on the ring thickness I scrape to the ring, if those rings are thin I personaly would not go near it with that rasp , can you post a pick of the sanded end grain so we can see your rings ? Also when Im done for the day I re shellac every thing to prevent checking !
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I was going to use a scraper to chase the heartwood rings. I'm only using a rasp to get through the sapwood. Do I need to shellac when the wood is already dry?
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I would shellac after your done every time hedge can hold on to moisture and cause checks with freshly exposed wood it's cheap insurance & I think you live in ca. Where it's probably drier then where that came from so could check easily if not sealed I keep all my working staves at 50% RH inside once you get your ring chased & bow ruffed out it will stablelise quickly but properly dried hedge will take a lot less set & make a nicer bow. Your working with top notch bow wood there !
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I am keeping this stave inside already where It is much cooler. But if I do put on shellac do I just paint it on the back?
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The back and ends I usaly put some down the sides on freshly exsposed too I have been using the spray shellac lately picked it up at Home Depo ether one works but find the spray convenient for end of shop day & it drys fast !
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Thanks
Also, what do you mean by 50% RH? (Sorry I didn't understand)
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Realitivly humidity
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Is there anything else I can use to seal the bow tho? So far it isn't checking and my house is usually at 60-70 degrees (it's starting to get warmer here so the house will stay cool).
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Any wood glue some body posted a while back using hair spray I have never used it but dont see why it wouldnt work get it cheap at the Dollar store
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Marin:
It would also be a good idea to seal the belly side.
You have removed quite a bit of wood from the belly side exposing fresh wood.
Osage belly wood will also check quite bad.
David
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Okay I did some more work on the back.
I'm practicing ring chasing on the sapwood ring. Once I've chased a ring in the sapwood, I'm going to take all the sapwood off and chase a heartwood ring.
I've attached a picture of the basic process I'm doing. I'm taking off the layer under the bark with a rasp, getting down to the the late wood ring, with small islands of early wood left over, and then I'm using a scraper to take off these islands of late wood.
So far I'm doing pretty good. I've only done half the back and I covered that half with some titebond II glue as a sealant. The osage didn't check without it but I am just following your guys advice. The sapwood rings are much thiner then the heartwood rings so I think not violating a sapwood ring means I'm doing pretty good. There are some I knots in the wood so I'm being careful at these areas, making sure that the the ring doesn't violate the ring.
I've attached pics. The top one showing the tip of of the stave is what I have a question about. There are these dark streaks on it and I'm trying to figure out what they are. I thought they were late wood but they aren't coming off. Maybe I shouldn't be worrying about it but I just want yours guys opinion
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Bubby,
I don't know of your reading this thread but if you are, can you please clear out your pm a little? I tried sending you a message the other day and it says it's full
Thanks
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Bubby,
Have you read this yet?
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I cleaned out my in box
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Thanks
Btw guys, do I put glue on the back after I chase the final growth ring I intend to be my back?
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Okay I'm dome with chasing the practice sapwood ring. As you can see, I've fully caused a very thin sapwood ring on the back if the stave and, with the exception of a small area in the middle, I did not violate it. In the second picture, the discoloration on the piece of the stave in the foreground is only due to the fact I applied TB II on that area last week.
The ring was very thin and I used a rasp for most of it, applying less pressure when trying to take off the early wood. I'm going to now take off the sapwood and then go down to the fourth heartwood ring. I thought the first ring would be thick enough but when I sanded the end and wet it down, I saw that I did not see that the first ring was merely two thin rings.
Do you think that I should go ahead with trying to chase the heartwood ring? Or should I do something else before?
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Looks like you got plenty of wood to work with. I enjoy chasing rings so if it were me and I needed practice, I'd keep chasing, one ring at a time until I got to that nice thick one that's 2 or 3 deeper. Just my thoughts though. :)
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+1 Chasing the heart wood ring is easer ,Upstates right you have a lot of thickness to work with so if you dont like that ring when you get there you have options, good therapy chasing rings !
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Okay I'll take off all the sapwood and chase the 3 heartwood rings before getting to the fourth. Does that sound about right?
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yeah,, I like thick on too,, (-P
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When I finally chase my final heartwood ring, do I still put TB II to seal it?
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Yes but if you could get some shelac it would be easer to get off or the hair spray trick although I have never tried it but TB2 is a pain to get off !
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No pics today but I was able to get the sapwood off with a rasp but I found it took longer than I thought so I'm caving I and buying a draw knife ;)
Anyways, I was looking online and I found this brand
http://m.northerntool.com/products/shop~tools~product_200623953_200623953?hotline=false&cm_mmc=Google-pla&utm_source=Google_PLA&utm_medium=Logging%20%26gt%3B%20Logging%20Tools%20%26gt%3B%20Draw%20Shave%20%2B%20Debarking&utm_campaign=Ironton&utm_content=41645&gclid=CKHK_IyaqNQCFQaRfgodvD8Obg
Might this be a good one? I have seen several less expensive vintage draw knives on eBay that appear to be in good condition but I for know how to judge of there good enough. How would you guys judge?
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I was in rush when I posted the last post and I realized I forgot to edt out typos. I meant to say I don't know how to judge if the vintage draw knives are any good and was wondering if you guys had any tips or (for newer draw knives) recommendations as to which brand I should use?
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Any drawknife is better than none. Buy what you can afford and go from there. Cheers- brendan
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Does an 8 inch draw knife seem like to big for this project?
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Yep buy the best you can get its a good investment if looking used find one thats not pitted up or really nicked up but even ruff ones will work just a matter of reworking the edge , you will be doing your self a big favor to get one !
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Marin, I'm sure most people have a nicer draw knife than mine. It's been in our family for along time. I has had one handle replaced. It's been abused, beat on, sharpened with a grinder generally not lived the life it deserved. Having said all that it is my go to tool for bow work. I'd be lost without it. Believe me any draw knife is better than no draw knife. Keep chasing those rings.
Bjrogg
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I looked at the ebay drawknives, there are two Greenlee 10" on the first page, very good drawknives in almost perfect shape. I have an identical one my shop and can attest to it's quality. I prefer a longer blade than 8", I have a 6" that is hard to use for anything other than cleaning up around pin knots.
I like a straight bladed knife, others may like a curved blade. I also like straight handles with no offset to the blade.
What ever configuration you get you can learn to use it.
The top knife is a heavy debarking drawknife and the one I use the most, I like heavy and big.
The next one is the Greenlee
The third is a Pine Knot that is currently on the Trad Gang St Jude Auction, it won't go cheaply.
The last is the 6" swedish drawknife with a thin, light blade. It is hard to keep that thin blade from digging in.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/bow%20making/four%20drawknives_zpspa37mfbx.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/ekrewson/media/bow%20making/four%20drawknives_zpspa37mfbx.jpg.html)
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Just ordered a greenlee draw knife (thanks for recommending that brand eric) from eBay for about 37 bucks. Hopefully it works. The pics of it looked good.
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Great Marin, it might take you a little bit to figure out how to use it but I'm sure you'll be happy to own one in a short time.
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If you haven't used a drawknife you will find you have more control and less gouging if you use it bevel down.
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Bjrogg,
To get some practice with it before I chase the ring, should I use it to thin the belly a little bit?
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Okay got my greenlee draw knife today. How should I go about practicing or should I go ahead on chasing a ring?
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If you have severale rings to go ,If it was me I would go for it on your stave you could stack your rings like in the pic and work your way down with a clear view of your target ring also like Eric said you can start with the bevel down & at a skew the knife will dig in less , if you run into undulations those are little valleys you will need a radius scrapper or pocket knife, if your knife starts to dull you could pick up a peace of leather & a flat board & some jewelers rouge to re sharpen , I have a a lot of different lights that I stage around the stave especially thin ring staves and adjust them tell the early & late wood pop off like a road map , there is nothing like a clean chased back of hedge I hang mine on the wall & when I come home from work & tired I look at them and dream of future bows it always revives me enjoy )W(
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Clean back
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A couple of tips;
You want to use your knife bevel down, I like my draw knives sharp but most folk have better luck chasing a grain with one if it is a little dull.
Take a slicing motion a little side to side instead of pulling the knife directly toward you.
When you get to a knot you have to ride the grain over the knot carefully, I use a round nose scraper for this wood removal. If you are cleaning up around the knot with your drawknife, make a cut on the side facing you first, if you don't, quite often a splinter will come off the far side, ride over the knot and gouge out a spot on the side facing you. A cut on the downside will stop any splinter that comes over the knot and you won't get a tearout.
If you are working a grain and the wood starts getting splintery, turn your stave around and work it in the opposite direction. Splintery means you are working against the grain and you want to work with it. The grain can change direction on a stave from one end to the other.
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Eric,
By slicing motion, you mean I move the draw knife side to side as I am pulling it down? What do you mean by that?
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Here's the motion I use when wanting to make clean cuts. The bevel is down so it won't dig in. Essentially cut the wood with a slice. If I'm hossing off wood I keep the blad perpendilular to the wood and pull straight back.
Kyle
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All good advice Marin, if you have a piece of scrap wood around maybe you could play with it a little to get a feel for it. It really will come pretty natural. It's not terribly complicated. On that stave I would practice a ring before I went for the one you want. You'll get it. Like said you might need combination of draw knife and scraper or pocket knife. Like Eric said biggest thing to watch out for is tearing out grain.
Bjrogg
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Thanks,
I the the technique but so far the draw knife is feeling more like a scraper. Is it supposed to take off small amounts of wood? Is it possible mine isn't sharp enough? How can I tell if it is sharp enough?
I attached pics of the draw knife and it's edge. Sorry for there poor quality
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The easiest way to tell if a blade has an edge is to scrape your fingernail wth it. It an edge is there it'll dig in or shave a curl. If it's dull, it'll glide across without leaving a mark. It only takes gentle pressure. You want it to take no pressure to catch.
Depending on how you hold the knife and the kind of pressure applied. You can tear off big chunks, or shave paper thin curls. It all comes with practice.
Kyle
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I was just outside practicing and I think I am getting better. I kind if feel like I am using this draw knife as a sort of scraper and I haven't been able to take off long pieces. Rather the draw knife feels like it catches and digs into the wood, not too deep but deep enough to catch the knife on. Am I applying too much pressure?
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Looks a bit dull to me. Easy to sharpen, I hold a knife handle in one hand resting the opposite handle on something solid and make circular motions with a stone held against the bevel the whole length of the blade. I use a fine diamond hone but any stone will work well. When I get the blade pretty sharp I make a pass or two down the flat side of the blade to knock off any burr that forms, done.
Here is a drawknife video on chasing a ring, pretty crude but you can see how he uses the drawknife.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGQdzMKmue4
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So I was outside chasing a ring and I thought I was on the thick 3rd ring but it sites out I've been chasing the 2nd ring. the 2nd ring is thinner than the 3rd (go back to the 1st page to see) but it is thick enough for me to chase. If i do successfully chase the 2nd ring, should I use it or should I go down to the 3rd?
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If you do a good job on ring #2 it will work just fine for the back of your bow.
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So the thickness of the growth ring used for the back of the bow does not do anything for performance? I was just thinking about this and I realized I never asked this question before.
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Okay I finished chasing the ring and I was able to do it successfully on the not as thick 3rd growth ring.vi realized that if I got more courageous when using the draw kmife to take of fthe early wood and pull through the rough spots, I could work right through it and not take off that much late wood.
I did violate the ring very, very close to the edge near one if the ends but at really doesn't matter.
I've attached pictures. I haven't removed all the little early wood "islands" but enought if them to give you a good picture.
How does it look?
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More photos
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as you practice with your draw knife, try it both bevel up and bevel down. I like mine best bevel down--it gives me control without digging in and allows me to make really fine cuts. Others claim to do better bevel up, so I think some of it is knife-dependent. When I flipped mine over the first time it was a whole new experience.
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I was going to try bevel up when taking off a lot of wood , which I'm going to do next by thinning the belly and then shaping the edges.
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Looks like your getting the hang of it Marin. That should be a fantastic tool for you that will last generations if taken good care of. Or in the case of mine even if it's been a bit abused. I do use mine both ways but mostly bevel down.
Bjrogg
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Do you guys think that I should take it down to the thicker ring tho? I've seen the cross section and there is only a thin section of late wood from the third ring left on the back, though it is not violated (except on one edge near the tip)
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Show us a pic of the end grain so we can see what you're talking about. I'd go only far enough to get a good, clean back ring.
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Here's the pic of both the ends. The late wood layer is appears thinner at one end then the other but I just don't know whether or not I should try to go down one more ring.
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Yes, I'd go down one more ring and be very careful to achieve a clean back.
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Thanks, I'll use the draw knife to go down to the next ring tomorrow.
But what do you mean by "clean back"? One clean of the remaining early wood? Was my back already clean?
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I believe he mean no violations. Clean smooth unviolated back. Make this one your best.
Bjrogg
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Okay, i chased it down to the next ring. I've attached pics. I wasn't able to fully remove wood at the tips as it is very hard to use draw knife and scraper in these areas. I'll remove the wood later.
Hiw does it look?
If it looks good, I will then use a hatchet to take off a wedge of wood from the belly to thin out the stave and, since this stave seems big enough, get out another possible stave for a short osage bow.
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More photos
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I meant just what BJ said.
Be sure to seal that freshly exposed back ring. I've had well seasoned osage stave check if newly exposed wood was not sealed. I like spray shellac. Quick and easy and is easy to removes and compatible with most finishes.
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So the back looks fine?
Do you think I can get one more bow out of this stave?
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Unfortunately I don't have shellac on me and lowes is closing soon. However, so far, it hasn't checked on any if the rings I have chased. Is that a good sign?
I'm keeping the stave indoors and the stave came from hot and humid Virginia with no checking. I could go to the storefront shellac tomorrow though
How long would it take to check?
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Could use white glue? But then it could be gunky and annoying to remove. Maybe it'd be fine and you could just scrape or peel it off
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You might be able to get two staves out of that one but you may also get 2 unusable ones also. Go with one bow. Later, when you're more experienced you might give it a try.
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Would it be too dangerous to try and take a wedge of wood off the belly with a hatchet and a hammer? It would really help reduce the belly but if it's too dangerous I'll avoid it.
How long does wood take to check?
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You should be able to remove the wedge off the inside. Start it with the hatchet and once you get it started work from both sides with wedges as you work down the stave. Be sure you leave enough for your handle thickness.
Wood can check in a matter of minutes if it is real dry R/H. I've had seasoned staves check over night in my basement shop.
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Make a stopping cut with a saw or a few light chops with the hatchet next to the handle area. Then split in from the ends like PatB said. Works great for fast wood removal.
Kyle
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I've checked the stave and it hasn't checked so far.
I'll remove a wedge of wood as you suggested.
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How does this sound for thickness dimensions: I'm making a bendy handle bow with a slightly narrowed handle. The handle will be 3/4", the beginning of the limb (at the fades) 5/8", and the tips is 1/2". I'll make my stave so that 1" of wood is left when I take off that wedge of wood.
Do these dimensions seem fine?
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I'd start with at least 1" thick at the handle, especially if you plan to narrow it at the handle. You can always take wood off later if necessary but it's harder to put it back on.
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So i can't narrow the handle of a bendy handle bow without thickening it substantially?
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I measure bow thickness from the crown of the wood to the belly right? I was just hinkkkj about this and realized I didn't know the answer ;)
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You can go with a 1" thick handle (back to belly measured at the crown on the back) and glue more wood on the belly in the handle section to fill it out.
If you decide to split off a belly split start your split in a growth ring by tapping a big screwdriver around the ring to start the split.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/osage%20cutting/bridgeosagecoresplitstarted_zps9299f593.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/ekrewson/media/osage%20cutting/bridgeosagecoresplitstarted_zps9299f593.jpg.html)
I like to use small wood wedges for this type of split, at least to get things started. My wedges are left over pieces from cutting splices.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/bow%20making/osagewedges.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/ekrewson/media/bow%20making/osagewedges.jpg.html)
The problem with belly splits is they don't always run down the stave like you would hope they would, often they angle up or down to ruin the belly split stave potential or perhaps the whole stave itself.
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Oh, I didn't realize that. Should I just stick with reducing the belly with a draw knife, bevel,side up?
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Until you are more familiar with the process maybe you should. It will give you more experience with your draw knife.
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You use the bevel side up to remove more wood right?
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I have been making bows for 20 years and have never used my drawknife bevel side up, ever. I prefer the control and lack of gouging using mine bevel side down.
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For heavy wood removal like removing sapwood I use it with the bevel up but like Eric I use a draw knife mostly with the bevel down for control.
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I just have to remove a lot of wood on the belly so using bevel down might take a while.
Ill remove most with bevel side up since it is a lot of wood
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I just was reading the "osage flatbow" section of TBB I and te utah or said to leave extra layers of wood on the knots if it's your first bow. I didn't do that. Do the knots on the back of my stave look fine?
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I leave an "island" of wood around knots on the back until I get an otherwise clean back then go back and gingerly work the island from around the knot, working from inside to out all around it. Usually I just use a scraper(goose neck or small knife blade) to do this.
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This was advice from Jim Hamm if I remember correctly, bad advice as you are creating a grain violation that could pop up taking the lower grains with it.
It has been a long time ago, 20 years or so but I believe I followed this advice early on and popped a splinter over a pin cluster.
Pat has it right if you are extra cautious. I clean up the back completely before I get serious about tillering.
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Like pat said, I was extra careful with the knots by leaving and island of wood which I removed with very light rasping and a scraper. I just didn't leave more than one ring on it, but as you guys suggested that's good.
From the pictures I posted of the back, do the knots look fine?
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Okay so I started thinning out the belly today and that posed some problems.
My first problem was clamping the thing down. I've been clamping the wood to a work table and then sitting on the stave (kind of like a shaving horse). This worked when working on the back but trying to clamp it down to work on he belly was nearly impossible. The back, being round, does not allow the stave to stay still when clamped and more often the clamp just falls off after I am working the stave a little with the draw knife. I've attached a pic of the setup. Is there anyway to get around this? I have been thinking about getting a carpenters hatchet to work down most of the belly as the only hatchet I have is a camping hatchet which is thick. I know that a carpenters hatchet is flatter and made for finer cuts but I have been making do with the camping hatchet, it just does very rough work.
Should I get a carpenters hatchet for future bow projects?
My next problem has been using my draw knife bevel side up. It just does not seem to be taking off much wood and now that e belly is becoming flatter, it's not catching and taking off wood. Maybe there is some technique that I do not know of but how do you guys use a draw knife bevel side up to work on a belly? I attached a pic of the draw knife and a sample cut it has made. I don't think the sharpness is a problem as I heard that using a dull draw knife is good for seasoned wood.
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If you don't have a workbench with a vise you can build a shave horse out of scrap wood to hold your stave.
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Marin, I could be wrong but if I'm seeing your picture correctly your draw knife is sitting on stave bevel down. I don't have the same type of draw knife so I'm not positive but pretty sure. By bevel down I don't think of cutting edge. My draw knife has one side that behind it's edge is flat and one side that is beveled behind edge. When beveled side is down you can tilt edge up or down and use bevel as a depth gauge to keep edge from digging in to much. I'm not sure I explained that so you can understand. It's kinda like skid plate for controling your cutting edge. If you want it to remove more wood you tilt edge down. If you just want to shave a tiny bit off you tilt cutting edge up more. If you flip over and use bevel side up, you give up this control for a more aggressive tool. You have to be careful though as it's much more difficult to control.
Please if I'm wrong about the position of this knife someone please correct me.
Bjrogg
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Bjrogg,
The bevel side is up. If it was down, the side showing would be of pleltly flat. And the placement and position of the drawknife is not entirely accurate as I had to use two hands to get a pic, so I positioned the draw knife so that it would balance on the wood. The little scrape of wood made below it is accurate.
I thoght that if I wanted to remove more wood, I should use bevel side up but is it just better to always use bevel side down?
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150 bows and somewhere around 300 osage stave cleaned up with a drawknife and I have never used mine bevel up. Some folk use theirs bevel up so it is a matter of personal preference, no right or wrong way to use one.
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I always run mjne bevel down and can make quick work of a stave. Plus with just a little angle shift you can go from takiking 1/4" chunks to paper thin whisper of wood. And if you want to take a large chunk you can jusst use it as a splitting wedge and split off a 3/4" tgick piece the length of a limb.
Kyle
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Well I tired bevel side down and found that it still works great for taking off large pieces of wood. Thanks guys.
I thinned the belly down and am starting to get the stave into a board shape. I did have a problem with thinning down one of the sides. The side in Question has many knots and I found that it is much harder to deal with these knots on the belly than on the back. I try going around and the knife gets caught and takes out a large piece of wood after several hacks. How do you guys deal with knots on the belly? It's making it very hard to thin out this side of the stave.
The first 2 pics attached show the knotted half in question
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Two more photos showing he thickness of the knotted half of the stave compared to the unknotted half and a part of the knotted half of the stave that was a bit hard. It appears that a knot that came out on another side of the osage branch was left over and I took it out completely with the draw knife but i am kind of afraid that I did something wrong. Do you guys think it looks fine?
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Sorry, need to repost those two photos
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How do you guys deal with knots when thinning down te belly side of the bow? I'm having trouble with these areas.
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Don't worry about knots on the belly. Just reduce them as you reduce the belly. I usually add super glue in all knots, front and back just for insurance.
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Thanks pat, but I'm finding that my draw knife seems to get caught in and stuck in the knots as I am trying to reduce them. How do you deal with this?
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You will find the need to have a course rasp in your bow making journey. You can probably knock the belly down quicker with a horseshoe rasp than you can with a drawknife, especially through the knots.
A horseshoe rasp is around $20 at Tractor Supply.
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So you use a rasp on the knots?
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Just wondering, what the difference between a horsehoe rasp and a regular rasp? I have a Nicholson rasp which I initially used for the back but it took a very long time, so is a horsehoe rasp larger and more gritty?
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Here's my Ferreira rasp. The biggest difference is size size, and the size of the teeth. It makes quick work of anything I take it too. It works up a sweat too. For hossing wood, co get the most power and quickest removal by holding the handle in the left hand, angle it at a 45* towards me. Stabilize the front with my right hand then sort of pull with both hands towards me. I got mine for $20 from orcheln.
Kyle
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So a horsehoe rasp is more aggressive than a Nicholson rasp?
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Would this rasp work?
http://www.3riversarchery.com/farriers-rasp-file-combo-bow-building-tool.html
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Just wondering how the performance of that raps compares to the rasp I've been using all along. I don't know what type of rasp this is called.
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The Three Rivers rasp is a horseshoe rasp, easily twice as aggressive as the one you are now using.
As rasps go the one you are using is not that great, it looks old and is probably dull.
I use an American made Nicholson #49 the most. They are made in Brazil now and from what I have read are not near as good a rasp as the old American made ones.
I bought a new old stock American made #49 off ebay for $20 and sent my old #49 rasp to Boggs Tools to be resharpened, it came back as sharp as new.
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A Shinto rasp is a good economical option you can aggresively ruff out a bow in short time, there my go to for removing a lot of wood quick !
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I'll vouch for that Stick Bender.I've got both types of rasps now thanks to you and each will hog wood off in a hurry.A farriers' rasp or a shinto rasp.
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Out of curiosity, what type of rasp have I been using? Is it good at taking off a lot of wood quickly when sharp or is it meant for smaller removal of wood?
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I have one that looks just like that. It's 11 5/8" long x 15/16" wide. I got it at Home Hardware in Canada so it's probably offshore stuff. It's got no markings whatever on it. It's brand new and it's the worst piece of crap I've ever bought. I'd make a knife out of it one day but the steel is probably no good.
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Mine has got marking a on it saying that it's a Nicholson rasp, I just don't know what type if rasp it is.
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More on dull rasps; I made at least 145 bows with my trusty #49 cabinet makers rasp, I never thought about it getting dull and kept using it. It wasn't until I bought a new one that I found out just how dull my old one was. What took me an hour with my old rasp took me minutes with my new one, duh, my rasp went downhill so slowly I never noticed it.
Get a good rasp, you will pat yourself on the back for it later.
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I ordered a farriers rasp yesterday. Forgot to tell.
I've been using this rasp for a while so hopefully I will see great improvement when I receive the the new rasp.
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I've heard of using vinegar to sharpen dull rasps but have never tried it. It might be worth looking into to bring new life into the one you've got. Others might weigh in on this method of sharpening.
Kyle
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Well I got that new farriers raps and used it today and I am just amwzwed. It's way better than my old rasp and did what would have taken a full day in only an hour. If I had this tool for my board bow (or just a sharper rasp) I might have finished that in half the time. So,dead I. Going to have to try out a Nicholson #50. I heard those are great
I've got the the stave down to roughly an inch thick along its length. I believe I'm ready to layout the bow on the back and use a draw knife to carve the profile. I know that I need to incorporate the knots in my profile. Ill try drawing it our today and I'll post some pics. bubby was nice enough to give me the plans for a semi-rigid, bendy handle bow.
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Bubby, could you resend me that pic of your bow? I'm laying out the profile and am trying to understand the dimensions you sent me but I am a little confused as to how wide the handle should be.
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Bubby,
I would,send you this as a personal message but your inbox is full. I was re reading the dimensions you sent me and I was wondering if your bow was 1 3/4" wide? I thought it was 1 1/2" and when I was laying out this width it seemed very narrow for an osage flatbow bow, especially since osage does better with a wide, flat limbed design.
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I make my osage bows 1 1/4" wide, osage doesn't need to have wide limbs.
If you get a Nicholson get a #49, a #50 is less aggressive. I started out with a #50 and gravitated to a #49 and seldom use the #50.
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These are the dimensions that Bubby gave me:
"1 1/4" wide till 8" from the tips and tapers to 3/8" finished. Fades are about 11/2" long 1" wide at the ends of the grip and a quarter wider in the center of the grip"
Now I get that te bow limbs are 1 1/4" wide but I'm a bit confused about the fades. Why would the fades get wider at the center of the grip or does this mean something else?
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Your handle is usually 4" long, I make mine as suggested for the most part.
I put a center line on the stave and use a circle template to lay out my bow, this way is very precise.
My handle layout is the same, at the center of the handle I draw a 1 1/4 " circle, at the ends of the 4" handle section I draw a 1" circle for the arrow pass and make the other end the same for symmetry, 2 3/4" out from the ends of the handle I draw a 1 1/4" circle.
This makes a nice handle with a gradual transition from the handle, through the fades and out to the limb. The 2 3/4" fades will shorten a bit when I tiller to get this area bending a little. I connect the dots by drawing a line at the outside edge of the circles with a ruler to give me my cut lines. I cut outside the lines and use a file to remove wood down to my lines.
(http://i.imgur.com/OhkkRKK.jpg)
Your finished handle with my layout will look something like this;
(http://i.imgur.com/FOtZJoR.jpg)
I make my tips 9/16" initially and drop them to between 3/8" and 1/2" about the time I do the final shaping on the finished bow, I start my taper to the tips at 12".
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Does your layout for a handle work for a bow that is supposed to be a semi rigid, bendy handle bow? That was the type of bow that bunny gave me the dimensions for and I really wanted to try making one.
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It will, I make my rigid handles 1 1/2" tall, for a simi bendy handle you might be at 1 1/4" or less tall on the handle.
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How does e location of where you start to taper your tips affect performance? Is it just personal preference?
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I like less mass in my tips and the look of narrow outer limbs, my bows perform well but I don't make comparisons to other limb configurations.
Wood is 7 times stronger in thickness than width so I can add just a little thickness in the outer limbs and have them as strong as much wider limbs.
My limb tips are almost round on the belly but very narrow. The bow in the picture is 15 years old, I make the tips a bit prettier now.
My old bow;
(http://i.imgur.com/HNkOL15.jpg)
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Well I,laid out the bow. I struggled a little with the tips as trying to get hem to follow the grain while tapering is a little challenging. Do the tips need to follow the grain closely or since they're tapering does it matter?
Anyways, the bows limbs are 1 1/4" wide tapering down to 9/16" at the tips. The handle is laid out like Eric's although I don't have anything to make a 1" and 1 1/4" circle.
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One more photo
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I would erase that pattern and start over, you need a center line to work off of, something doesn't look right in your handle layout. Layout is one of the most important parts about making a bow, your bow will look sloppy the way you have it layed out. Don't freehand anything, use a ruler.
I know I am being rough on you but you might as well do it right the first time as it will save you a lot of grief down the road.
You need one of these, about $7 at any office supply store like office depot.
(http://i.imgur.com/riSHpPU.jpg)
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Marin,
You have some great advise from Eric...hang with it...way to go Eric passing it forward....love watching/reading the progress of this thread.
DBar
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Eric,
I used a ruler for the center line. I free handed the main profile as the grain is somewhat wavy. I would use a ruler but thought that would cut through the grain and jepordize the bow. Does that matter at all?
Does the taper at the ends follow the grain also or can I just use a ruler to make a straight line?
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You do need to follow the wavy grain but I don't see a centerline on your layout. The bent tip needs to follow the grain like you did.
Quite often a wavy grain is evident on both sides of the limb and the wave matches side to side somewhat. What I do is shift my circle off the centerline to accommodate the snakey part and come back later, hold my stave in the sunlight so the grain is very evident and follow it with my pencil.
As you can see my centerline is very bold. I have a 6' yard stick that I use to draw the centerline but have popped a chalk line and used that as well.
Offset circle to accommodate the snake.
(http://i.imgur.com/w4u6cbs.jpg)
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I was referring to the center line going from side to side at the handle section. How do I draw a centerline for a stave that curves?
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Get in the sun and follow the grain and layout your centerline. The same way you followed the grain on the tips. Cheers- Brendan
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Marin i just saw this, the fades are 1-1/2" long not wide and go from 1-1/4 at the end of the fade to 1" where it meets the grip. Follow the grain like was mentioned😉
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I make my fades 2 3/4" long, this makes for a gradual transition to the limbs which is very important if you are gluing on a handle.
(http://i.imgur.com/Kt1pBMJ.jpg)
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Eric,
My handle isn't going to be a glue on handle but would that still be important?
Bubby,
So for your bow, the fades were 1 1/2" long and taper from 1" at the handle. The handle is about 4" right? Do you use the circle method to layout your handle?
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No i dont but a it is a good idea.
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do I have your dimensions right though? A 4" handle, 1 1/2" fades, and 1 1/4" wide limbs tapering down to 9/16" at 8". And try to keep the handle at least 3/4" thick for a bendy handle bow
Do you lay out your bows by drawing a centerline and going from there?
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No stay 1-1/4" up to 8" from the tips THEN taper from that point to the tips. I do make a centerline, by following the grain, you can not cut a straight bow from a crooked stave
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The thickness and handle dimensions are right tho?
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Yes
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Lots of ways to lay out a bow handle, most of them are OK. I make mine to flow gracefully but it is not necessary unless you are gluing on a handle.
Handle, limb taper and nock overlays, I like them to flow into the limbs and not be too abrupt.
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I'm re-laying out the bow right bow and I ran into a problem at one of the tips: there is a knot right at the 8 inch point where I need to start tapering down to the tips. Do I start tapering after this point or do I start in the knot ?
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I lay it out as if the knot isn't there and then go back and widen it by at least the width of the knot. Make it flow nice and smooth around the knot following the grain.
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Relayed out the bow according to bubby specifications. The handle is 1" wide and the limbs are 1 1/4" wide tapering down to 3/8" starting at 8" from tips. I tired following. He grain the best I could and it's not that challenging on most of stave since it's so straight.
How does the layout look?
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One more
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Great job guys..............
DBar
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Fyi the layout he is using is a copy of my fred arnold bow i got in the bow trade a few years back. The specs fit his paramiters
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Can I start carving the profile or is the layout not good enough?
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I started carving the profile. I used the ferriers rasp which was quite quick but took a lot of effort.
Just wondering do you guys use a rasp for shaping or a draw knife?
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Rasp is safer. I use drawknife for roughing out front profile. Then switch to rasp to shape to your line.
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Well, I rasped down to near the outline.vim going to final shaping after I do the tips. Before I rasp down to the tips, just wanted to check if you guys thought I had drawn them right?
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My tips are fine right?
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Great job to everyone involved in this one!
I have not been but I would say the 8" taper to tips as mentioned before while keeping to the grain is great advice.
Way to stick with it.
PS-I use a hatchet to rough out the profile and just keep a bit back from the outline and then rasp the last bit. It helps me follow the grain as it splits along it. Can end up with little tear outs and splitting into areas not wanted though so I take it easy.
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Dubois,
What type of hachet do you use?
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I did one tip on Friday and ran out of time to do the other one. The other tip is the one with the knot in it. Just wondering if any of you have any tips of how to deal with the knot? It's in the taper so the wood is being reduced a little on it's edges but it still follows the grain. Should it be fine?
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Just leave a little extra around the knot, just to be safe. You can always reduce it later. Cheers- Brendan
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Will you post a pic of your progress?
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Okay I did the final shaping an I think I'm ready to do the belly taper
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How do these dimensions for thickness sound : 3/4" thick at the handle, 5/8 at the ends of fades, and 1/2" at the tips. This is a semi rigid bendy handle bow so does the handle thickness have to be significantly thicker or will it be more subtle?
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how do you draw the belly taper line? My stave curves a little and I tired using a trick I saw in the Osage bow section of TBB 1 where you put your fingers on the back of the bow so the pencil follows and undulations in the wood,but the pencil keeps moving about, messing up the line
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I do it like your describing. But do it in 6" sections. Practice makes you better. Maybe practice on some scrap just until you get the feel for it. I scribe things like this all the time so it's second nature to me. Hope that helps. Cheers- Brendan
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Here is what I do;
I mark a line every 6" down the limb on both sides of the limb. I start at the end of the fade and make my first measurement, because I make slightly round belly bows I start at 1/2", every 6" I drop my measurement 1/16th" until I get to 1/4" at which point I carry this measurement to the tip of the limb.
With this the 1/2" measurement all the way to the 1/4" measurement I am rasping to a peak on the middle of the belly so my actual limb thickness is more than 1/2" even at the tip.
It is easier to get a uniform line doing it 6" at a time. I call this line the roadmap for your bow, don't violate it. If you have too much poundage after tillering the belly almost flat drop your side lines another 1/16" again stopping at 1/4".
I use the finger nail on the back of the bow to guide my pencil, you can get good at it with practice, the eraser is your friend. Sanding the sides of your limb and keeping them square makes the pencil marking easier.
(http://i.imgur.com/vXX4v6y.jpg)
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Well I sanded the sides of the stave to make it easier to draw the line. I started at 5/8" thickness at the fades (with a 3/4" handle) and went down 1/16" every 6" like eric suggested, but I stopped going down at 1/2". Does the line overall look fine?
Also, when I rasp down the belly, do I leave extra wood on the knots on the belly side of the bow? The line curves at knots so that extra wood is taken off at these areas which didn't make much sense to me.
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Could someone please answer if you know? I'm at a standstill on this project until I know for certain what to do, as I don't want to turn this bow stave into kindling.
I'm sorry if I'm being pushy but I really want to start again on this and just want to be certain on if the line is properly done for the most part and how to deal with knots on the belly side.
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You want the belly to follow the back. Cheers- Brendan
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The way I was taught to do it was draw a 5/8 line parallel to the back all the way down the stave rasp & clean up ,then draw another line the same way with a fat 3/8 line that way you can keep a eye on your tapper as you progress and I use calipers to drop 1/16 every 6 in or so im sure there is many ways to do it but thats one.
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You don't need to leave extra wood at the knots on the belly side, pretend they don't exist.
With your measurements you will have about a 125# bow when you get the belly rasped down.
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Wait, so you draw a 5/8" line on both sides and srop down by 1/16" every 6"? What o you mean by a fat 3/8" line? Where?
Yeah, I know it's going to be quite heavy but this is just a starting poimt and I dint want to take off too much wood.
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A fat 3/8 I mean just a hair thicker then 3/8 ,the line is drawn parallel to the back of the bow if the back is crowned all measurements are from the top of the crown it's basically a reference line for seeing your tapper , before floor tiller I like the limbs 5/8 out of the fade 1/2 at mid limb and 3/8 at the tips , the lever bow in the picture at those diementions is probably a 80 lb bow it has 1 1/2 wide limbs but eventually will be a 47 lb bow I'm just passing along what I was taught it works for me and keeps weight robbing hinges to a minimum some bowyers don't pre tapper at all but I find a ruff pre tapper helps with floor tiller & getting to low brace easer ! Keep in mind those are ruff numbers for a starting point on a 50 lb bow.the shorter the bow the stronger it's going to be at those numbers The important thing is to end up with a smooth even tapper all the way down the limb before bending the bow far !
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Okay, so I finished the rough thinning down of the belly. It is at the thinnest a 1/2" thick which is still pretty heavy but I'm going to start doing finer thinning and floor tillering the next couple of days. I think that getting it down to 1/4" will be best as you guys suggested.
I did however discover a problem I never noticed before. At one of the ends of the bow, an end that had been shellac and exposed when I first received it, I discovered a small hairline crack that went into the bow. I don't know how deep it is but it doesn't show up on the back. Should I try to shorten this bow or is the crack insignificant enough to ignore?
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Soak some super glue in the crack and ignore it, your string nock should be below it.
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+1
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Got one of the limbs to floor tillering stage and I will work on the other one tomorrow. I did have a question about using the grain as a gauge of belly thickness in areas. I tried getting a perfect centered cathedral grain going down the belly but when I tried to do this, the thickness of either sides of the belly were quite uneven. Is this not always a good way to gauge belly thickness?
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It only works on a perfect stave. There are very few of them around :D That said as long as you keep you head on straight you can infer a little from it but be very careful.
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I bought into that perfectly feathered grain theory early on in my bow making journey, can't remember where I read about it. I ruined a couple of good osage staves trying to make it work and realized it was just one more of those bow making old wives tales that had no basis in fact.
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Thanks, it might have been too late if I had continued :)
The limb I worked today is still quite heavy so luckily I didn't mess anything up. For my style of bow, what limb thickness am I targeting?
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Have you floor tillered yet? I start that as soon as I get the least bit of bend under pressure. That way I can keep tract of the bend and draw weight(heavy or light).
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Forget about any thickness measurement, from here on out you will be concerned about how evenly your limb bends. It is unlikely you will be able to tiller by limb thickness measurements.
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And another +1
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Wow man 15 pages and not even floor tillered? I think you may be overthinking everything, marin. Its good that you want to be careful and make a quality bow but you kinda just need to dive in with this. Its bow making not nuclear engineering. Use your hands a bit more than your brain
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If you think this is long, just look at my board bow page ;)
I'm trying to go as quick as I can. This is only my second bow, my first one made from a tree stave. I'm just asking the questions I think are necessary and, in addition, am closely reading the TBB.
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Okay, got both limbs thinned out and ready to floor tiller but I do have a problem. The stave has a sort of natural reflex in one limb and a natural deflex in the other. How do I tiller these areas?
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In the long run the easiest way is to match the limbs. Use heat to put reflex in the deflexed limb or vice versa. Starting off with both limbs the same makes tillering easier. Just going ahead on it the way it is you will end up(hopefully) with one limb that looks like it's bent more than the other and you will have to compensate with your brain and eyes. It's not easy. Hope you understood that, I wrote it three different ways and thought this was the best ;D ;D
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How do I use heat to take out the reflex and the deflex? Can I just heat the belly over a stove then clamp it down?
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Marc's chapter in TBB4
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Only have volume 4 :(
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I mean I only have volume 1
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Do you think I would be able to find that information online or would it be worth it to invest in a copy?
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Basically heat it until it will bend easily and then ( as quick as you can, because it will loose heat quickly) clamp it into the shape you want. Let it cool and your done. Cheers- Brendan
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Be sure to pad the clamps so you don't add dimples to the hot wood when you tighten the clamps. You can clamp it flat to a 2x4 or your work bench or make a caul to the shape you want to match the limbs. Three inches of even reflex should leave you with a flat profile or an inch of reflex when shot in.
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But do I only heat up the belly,or sort of twirl the stave when heating it up over a stove? And how long should I heat it up for?
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Heat only the belly and be sure you don't scorch the back. You can heat the belly until you can't hold your thumb on it. You can coat the area to be heated with cooking oil to keep from scorching. I think it helps hold the heat in a bit longer, too. Heat and clamp only 6" to 8" at a time before moving on to the next section.
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Leave the reflexed limb as it is and match the deflexed limb to it.
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Only problem with that idea is at the limb that reflexes kind of reflexes before deflexing near the tip. It makes an s curve of a sort. I don't think I can match it.
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I didn't notice that anomaly but you are right it would be hard to match. You really need a simple form to bend both limbs the same on. A form would take out the deflex on the reflexed limb and add reflex to the deflexed limb.
Your form only needs to be as long as one limb on your bow and have a gentle arc dropping about 2 or 3 inches from one end to the other.
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I tried to fix the delfexed portion today but it doesn't seem to work. I clamped down the very tip, the handle of the bow, and a portion a bit pass the mid limb before heating up a portion of the limb next to the tip with one of those small canister camp stove. I heated up this portion until it was too hot for one to even place their finger on for only a second and then I placed a clamp on it. I went up the limb and with my two remaining clamps did this at 2 other spots about 3 inches apart (maybe less) so that the entire deflexed tip was clamped down. I waited about 30 minutes for it to cool down and when I unclamped it, the limb still had its delfexed shape >:(
I covered the belly in canola oil so it wouldn't be scorched which seemed to work. Should I space the clamps out more or keep the heat on one spot longer. It felt like it took about a minute or so for the spot I was heating to heat up to the temperature I wanted before I clamped it and moved on?
Eric, is it possible to add reflex or recurved tips during or after tillering? I would just need to track down some wood to make a form which might take time and I'm already having trouble straightening the stave.
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Sounds like you didn't have enough heat. Heat the belly until the back is hot. It needs to be hot the whole way through. Not just the surface. Only a minute of heat didn't sounds like much. Keep your heat source about 4" away. Hope that helps. Cheers- Brendan
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About how long do you guy heat your bows when bending them into a desired shape?
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Average about a 1 hour per inch. So if it's a 3/4 inch thick about 45 mins. That's steam from a pot of water boiling on high, with tin foil tented over top. But you can only do 8- 10 inches at a time. Or clamp it too a form and start heating on one end and clamp as you go leaving the heat gun or whatever on the same spot for a few minutes at a time and move it and tighten the clamp a little. So on and so forth until you ha e reaches your desired shape. It should take you 35-45 minutes per limb that way.Cheers- Brendan
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Okay I tried to do what I did last time only I kept the flame on one spot for about 4 minutes, each time keeping the flame about 3 to four inches away. It definitely felt like the heat went all the way through but when I unclamped it, the deflex was still there. What do you guys think I'm doing wrong?
Also, at one spot I was being sloppy and I accidentally scorched the wood, leaving a big black spot. It doesn't feel like charcoal (it still feels quite hard) but I tried using aggressive sandpaper to get it out and it goes down quite aways. The back at this section looks perfeclty fine so I know it didn't go all the way through. Do you guys think it should be fine?
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Is it possible that I didn't clamp it for long enough? I waited about half an hour for it to cool down before unclamping it. Could that be the issue?
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Marin PM me your address and I will send you a heat gun stop using the flame it could ruin the stave it could be there by tuesday !
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Marin,
Years ago used to heat the wood on an electric range and then run to the basement to clamp it. That worked ok but not great.
Have everything ready. Now I use a heat gun. First, I grease the belly. Bacon grease works. Second, I heat it until the back is hot to the touch and then clamp it and let it cool.
Sometimes, I have to heat and clamp a few times.
Jawge
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I've been clamping the tip into place and then heating before adding more clamps. I guess that's not what you guys do.
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I remember reading a description of how Ishi would use heat it recurve his bows; he would take a hot stone and place the back of the bow on it and bend it in the direction he wanted. He then took the bow and place it over his knee,mcovered in a buckskin pad,mand kept bending it into shape until the shape held. Could I perhaps do something like this?
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Sometimes I heat it when it is in the clamps but I've already started it bending.
Jawge
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What do you mean you've already started it bending?
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I usually clamp the handle to the form, belly up and start heating from the fades out. I use a heat gun. I will heat about 6" to 8" area then clamp it and move to the next section. When I'm done with one limb I move to the next one. When both limbs have been heated and clamped I let it rest over night before removing the clamps. With a heat gun held about 3" or so from the wood I move the heat gun back and forth in the area until I start to see color change, clamp it then move on to the next area.
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Do I need to heat the entire limb if the deflex is only at the tip?
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We all learned by trying different stuff, think about it and give it a whorl, it that doesn't work try something else.
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Check out Clint's(Osage Outlaw)newest post. He's going from start to finish on an osage stave. You will be able to see what we've been talking about.
I like to give both similar and even reflex. It will make tillering easier for you to see.
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I just looked at osage outlaws post and now understand.
So I need to make a curved caul if I want a flat profile?
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I've just been clamping the stave to a flat 2x4.
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Marin if you could pick up a copy of Gary Davis Rattlestick self bow tutorial dvd sold here on PA it's worth it's weight in gold for his form recipes alone plus the DVD would answer a lot of your questions it's a great dvd it was recommended to me and I waited about 6 months to get it and would have saved me a lot of time if I had bought it sooner !
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How do you guys make a curved caul? I'm trying to figure out how I might draw out a perfect arc to make it.
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Could I just "eyeball" the arc?
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OK, tape the end of a string to the floor, put your 2X4 about 3' from where you taped the string end. Hold a pencil at this point and use the string to make an arc. If the arc is too small move out the string and try again. When you get a nice arc that will fit on the side of the 2X4 mark it with your pencil.
I made all my bending forms this way.
Marin, you are reading way too much into this process, bow making isn't an exact procedure, you have a lot of wiggle room however you do things. All of bow students I tried to teach the craft to who never finished a bow were all afraid of doing anything on their own for fear of goofing up, I suspect you fall into this category.
Eric, over and out.
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Does it have t be perfect? I'm having a hard time drawing it perfectly.
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Could I draw two or three straight lines instead of an arc? It would be much easier to draw and cut
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Reason I'm asking is I tried to draw the arc with the stirng method, keeping the board 3" away but the arc was too small so I placed the string over a yard away and still got an arc that just wasn't right. Perhaps I'm not seeing something right. Does the arc need to fit the entire limb or could it just be enough to clamp down a part of the limb on?
I know I'm probably overthinking this too much but I'm just lost a little on this.
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It didn't need to be perfect. You can use shims here and there for more or less reflex. Just rough it out with a saw, and smooth it up with your rasp. You could get a finished bow and trace the limb. Or just eyeball it, to whatever shape you want. You could take a thin price of wood/ metal and flex it to the shape you want with clamps, nails whatever and trace that. Don't think about it too much just try something. Cheers- Brendan
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I wasn't going to add anymore to this thread but, goodness, try 5' then 6' or 8' or whatever it takes to get the arc you need.
I can't remember how long my string was, the 3' suggestion was just a starting point.
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Sorry, you don't have to add anymore if you want.
I think I may have figured out something that might work I ll give you guys updates.
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Marin you can put nais in your board and put a flexible yard stick to bend around them to get the arc you want I recommended Gary Davis DVD because he has great forms and how to make them you want the most of your arc in the mid & outers on your form verry little from fades to mids !
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I don't mean to sound unsympathetic to Marin, but I somehow find it difficult to believe anyone is as helpless as he appears to be. In fact I suspect Marin may be " putting us on" with his helpless act.
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Yep, I'm completely helpless. I don't know how to do anything right. It's not like I've chased a ring and shaped an entire stave from a limb. ;)
Xin, I'm not trying to play anyone and I'm sorry if it comes off that way.
Sorry guys for all the questions. I'm trying to be prompt and quick and you have all taught me so much. Thank you all if I haven't said it already.
(Update: I've got the caul ready and I'm going to use a heat gun this time. I might use live flame some future time. Hopefully will have update on at least one limb by tomorrow)
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Okay, so I made the caul yesterday and used it. I just decided to freehand and cut with a jigsaw. The bending occurs mostly at the tip. I clamped the limb handle down and heated the limb with deflex before clamping it down and waiting until the next day to unclamp. it was sucessful! I'm not nearly as intimidated by heat treating as I once was but I'm kind of stuck on how to get the reflex out of the other limb. Their is some reflex in the heated limb but not nearly enough to match the other. Could I perhaps clamp down reflexed limb and place a piece of wood underneath it to make it "deflex" while cooling or could I leave the reflexed limb untouched? It certainly isn't as bad as deflex so maybe it's fine to leave it.
Here's the photos
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Your caul actually looks good to me just do the other limb at the same position on the caul to match the profile did you heat the entire limb ? If not it's probably best to heat the whole limb so the belly is the same consistency , it took me a while to get the feel for heat treating and had a couple corrections come out not using enough heat ! If you can get the other limb to match you should be good to go !
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I heated the entire limb, yes. I was just conflicted about doing the other limb as there is some reflex at the tip of it. If I treated it like the other limb, wouldn't the reflex just get more pronounced? I've attached a picture to show the reflex in the limb: it's only at the tip but already very pronounced, more pronounced then the reflex that I've now put in the other.
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Marin if you put the other limb on the form and clamp the handle down and start from the fades out and start heating the limb and add some clamp pressure ahead of the area being heated once you get the heat above 350 Deg the wood will plasticize and become easily bendable but don't force it , it will bend with very little pressure providing your limbs are thin enough work your way down the limb and your limb will take the shape of your caul basically with some spring back , you can add wood shims in areas to get the limb to match it's kind of a play it by ear thing no real paint by numbers way as each stave is different but don't worry if it's not perfect on the first go you can always reheat it on the form the better you match the limbs the easer the tiller going to be , it's a little awkward at first but you will get the feel , some times it's easy to over think bow making but the more time in the shop trying it ,it will get easer !
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Okay so I tired he other limb. I'm going to unclamp it tomorrow. I think I may have found a solution to matching the limbs which was to shim up the reflex part and clamp down the parts on either end of it. This has put a lot of stress on it though as it saw a crack on the belly in is area that is small.
I hope is works
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Looking forward to seeing your profile pic before you take it off the form get some thin crazy glue and saturate that area and losen the clamp right away if it's the one at the apex of the bend looks like it's on the outers there ? How wide is it there & how far from the tip ? Marin this is kinda like the blind leading the blind I have only been making bows in earnest for the last 2 years and only working on my 11th bow but can only help you to the point of my limited exsperience ! But what helps me is I'm a compulsive reader with bow books , & then I go to the shop and try what I learned , but if people here hadn't helped me I wouldn't be at the level I'm at now ! But your doing good bud keep it up !
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Okay I unclamped it and found that the heat treatment got rid of the little bit of deflex at the tip but now the entire tip is reflexed. Should I just leave it be or could I bend it the opposite direction and heat? I was thinking about doing this bit or might just cause the limb to be deflexed, something I don't want.
I think I might have to re heat the other limb though. When first unclamped it was pretty straight but now it has taken a slight deflex. I hope that's normal .
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Stick bender, the area with the cracks was about 4" from the tip and 1 1/8" in width.
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The crack shouldn't be a issue that far out you can narrow your tips there to avoid it , sense this is your first stave bow I would put it back on your caul and try to get it to match your other limb but it's up to you , once you get it bending and thiner you can always reheat the profile you want but this is one of those calls that needs to be made by the guy making the bow , the more those limbs match each other the easer it's going to be to tiller making stave bows are a different animal compared to the board bow you made before like a good friend of mine says bow making is nothing more then problem solving 101 !
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Reheated the first limb and waited 5 hours. That seemed to fix the problem but ill do it once more tomorrow. After that, I heated the reflexed limb and tried something else. I just placed a block of wood under the reflexed portion but did not clamp the very tip to reduce stress. I don't Want to get rid of all the reflex, just some of it.
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Okay i think I'm going to start floor tillering again. The deflex is mostly out and the reflex has been reduced enough. I figured out that if I thinned out the limb that was deflexing, I could get it to bend more which worked a little but now the limb reflexes but has a slight deflex in the middle. I think I'll just floor tiller and once I get to short brace try to reheat it.
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So I finished shaping today and I'll add the jocks and do final sanding tommorow. Before I add the nocks, I was just curious about pin nocks vs standard nocks. Does one have advantages over the other or is it just personal preference?
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Just about nocks, if I go with standard nocks, what is te difference between cutting aglned nocks and "horizontal" nocks?
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I'm not quite sure about your last question (horizontal?). I like pin nocks because they are simple and light. Lots of guys like fancier ones though, and they are very beautiful. It's a personal preference thing - find some you like and copy them. That might help with the other question too.
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By Horizontal I mean nocks that are straight. For my board bow I made nocks that went at a 45 degree angle so I didn't know why people choose to do straight.
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When you see straight nocks it usually means the bow maker was a beginner and didn't know how to make nocks correctly.
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If the nocks were at, say, 90 degrees to the back/belly, it would create a lot more wear on the string loop, and the loop would probably be more inclined to slip off while stringing.
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Okay I added the nocks today and started long string tillering. I pilled it to where it's 25 lb, which is at 12". As it still has a little bit of reflex in one limb, I'm just wondering would this limb appear stiffer Han it actually is when on he tiller stick? Should I take more wood off this area to compensate or ignore it?
Also, quick thing about he nocks, I'm really bad at making the,. It appears they are not lined up perfectly. I know that it will never be perfect but my alignment just seems "too off". I'm just wondering if you guys think they look fine.
I'll do more tillering hopefully tomorrow
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Another quick question, does a tillering gizmo work for this kind if bow? I was just thinking about this as I used one for the board bow but his stave have some snake, so perhaps I need to eyeball the tiller this time
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Use the gizmo just like you did on your board bow just keep it centered on the limb even in the snakey parts.
Your nocks are cut poorly, one high and one low. Always draw in where you want to cut them so they match on the back and belly, no freehanding.
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I didn't freehand it. I measured 1/2" from the tip. I think what threw me off was the curvature of the tip.
Could I try to recut them? By that I mean cut the higher one a little lower, with it being much wider?
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Yep, go up on the low one and down on the high one.
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Okay, I fixed the nocks and did more long stirng tillering at 12" until most of the stiff spots picked up by the gizmo were gone. I then recoamoed one of the,limbs to the caul and heated it. I've just been noticing this limb still has deflex so I was hoping that after some tillering, it might be easier to bend. I'll unclamp tomorrow.
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Okay I went to 14" today and tillered until the gizmo stopped picking up stiff marks. I then low braced the bow and pulled the bow to where it was 25 lbs which was at 16". I tillered at 16", then 17", and then 18". What's worrisome is that it's currently 23# at 18", and the wood appears to have 2lbs per inch of draw, meaning that at 28", I will be under my target of 55#. I don't know why this happened. On my last bow, it was because assumed that I was going to be overweight and took off a lot of material but on this one I did not do that. I'm quite confused on this fact. :(
Attached are pics of today's work . I think the tiller looks good but is it it right for a semi rigid bendy handle bow? I believe it has to be elliptical for that but am I wrong?
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One pic of tiller at 18", where I stopped today
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You have proved me wrong Marin, I didn't think you would ever finish this bow. Your tillering job so far is pretty good, a lot better than most newbies.
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Okay tillered up to 21" today though this days work was full of frustration. First of all, it took me nearly 2 hour a to get all the stiff spots out at the 20" level. I have no idea what happened but I wonder if this might have been the problem:'I was using the file side of the ferriers rasp followed by scraping with a paint scraper, so maybe this might have been too aggressive. But when I started using only scraper, it still took forever to fully balance the tiller and get all the stiff spots. It's really confusing. I normally just mark the entire part of the stiff portion with pencil and scrape this off and scrape the area 2 more times just to be sure but it seems this is sometimes too much or too little, so I find myself constantly taking the bow to the tree, exercising it 30 times, and discovering the stiff spot is still there or ethat I've created a new stiff spot next to it >:(
I don't know why tillering takes me forever. I know I shouldn't rush it but I hear of people tillering their self bows within a day and that just seems impossible to me. I keep on returning to the tree with gizmo in hand and only discover more spots or keep on finding that the spots I scraped are still there. Do you guys have any tips as to how you tilller?
Also, found that this bow is 20#at 21", so it looks like I made another child's bow again :( I'm sorry guys but I guess I just ruined this wonderful osage stave. Don't get me wrong, I do like this bow, I just wish I could of made what I wanted. I'll finish up, I'm just kind of disappointed.
Here's today pic. Note that when I took this pic, there are still stiff spots that the gizmo picked up.
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I find using my fingers as a thickness gauge to be the most reliable way of avoiding thick, stiff spots as well as hinges. Eye the side of the limb then run your fingers over the thickness of both limbs as you are removing wood. That has been the most important piece of advice i got on tillering over the years. Also this is only your 2nd bow. Dont worry about it. Everyone makes mistakes, even the experienced guys.
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I've got it mostly level at 21". I'm going to make te string and start shooting it in up to 28" of draw. I have to finish it this weekend as I'm not going to have time for a couple I months to do any personal projects.
Pic of tiller. The gizmo wasn't picking up any serious stiffness but I could see some slight undulations in wood level. Hopefully it's fine
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Out if curiosity, how thick do you guys keep your tips? I'm wondering as mine seem too thick and I think it kind of threw off my tillering as I would sometimes gage the gizmo based off of the area next to the tip, which caused me to take off too much material.
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My tips end up about 1/2" thick and 1/2" or less wide. With the gizmo you want to leave abut the last 6" of the limb stiff as this adds the equivalent of small levers to your tiller for a little better performance.
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I made the string with D97 but had a quick question: when I first strung the bow, one of the loops slipped so I redid it. However, when I was done splicing the loop back into the string, it seems the reverse twists spread out away from the loop. The loop still held but the splice didn't seem clean anymore until I spun the string to make it shorter. Is this normal? How can I make sure the stein will hold under stress?
I'm going to serve the string tomorrow with one strand of thick upholstery thread (don't have time to get serving thread) and start shooting it in.
Attached is the loop in question
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Marin.....Making strings can be frustrating when first making them it seems.Almost need an over the shoulder watch by someone who's done it but maybe not here.If you can't find someone you'll have to U tube it I guess.A book might help too.Splicing the tails of a loop into the main length of string I'm talking about.
The way you have it there will not work too well.
Also about the nocks on the tips.Anything beyond that loop is dead weight on the tips.Slightly sand round the edges so they are'nt sharp to cut your string and you'll be good.I'd make those look like pin nocks.The string will stay on fine.
Another thing your left limb is a bit stiffer midlimb or just out from your fade a ways then your right limb.Might be the angle of your pic or propeller on limb too but I don't think so.
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When you make your first loop you have to take all the twist out of each bundle or you will have the double rope effect like you have.
After I finish the loop and twist the bundle past the tag ends a half inch or so I use a piece of string material and tie off the bundles where the loop twist stops. I do this to keep from untwisting my loop while I do the next step which is untwisting the individual bundles.
I put the loop over a hook and untwist each individual bundle starting at where I tied off the loop and moving toward the loose end, repeat with the other bundle. I pinch the bundle with with my thumb and fore finger of my left hand on the loop side and untwist with my right hand. When you finish you should have two flat bundles of string, no twists. Match the ends and make your other loop.
When you get your second loop made you will have more bundle twist on one end of the string than the other, again, this can cause a rope effect. I start down the string untwisting bundles on the twisty end do so to about midpoint of the string. This untwisting should leave you with evenly twisted separate bundles which will blend together nicely (no rope effect) when you do your final loop twisting.
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That's about as good a description as I've heard for you Marin.If you can execute it.Taking twist out of your main string meaning the plys themselves before applying stretch to your string will stop the loops from unwinding.
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I made strings for years and thought I had it down but still had the rope effect sometimes. I watched Chad Weaver's string making video "Doing The Twist" and found the error in my ways, I wasn't taking the twist out of the bundles after I made the first loop.
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This is what I did: I took the two bundles and did a little reverse twist in the middle and then i I did the loops. I got this method from another bowyer ho used it .
I have been using YouTube to learn this method . I've still been having trouble.
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Start with the loop. Listen to Eric's description And you will get it. Cheers- Brendan
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I tried making another string according to Eric's advice but one of the loops slipped out again >:(
I made he first loop, tied it with string and untwisted the bundles before making the other loop, and then holding that loop before twisitng the string counterclockwise 25 times. I definitely twisted past the spliced loop at least half an inch but I believe more than that. I have been reading several sources and watched several videos and I can't tell what I'm doing wrong. What could be the problem?
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Is it possible that when splicing the loop, I placed the tail ends on the wrong sides ?
Does that even cause a problem?
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I'm looking at the splice on the other loop and it still appears to be not very good. I don't know why this keeps going wrong. I'm reverse twisting it and I'm definitely twisting this far past the splice point. I tied it off before doing the second loop so I don't know why it continues to do this "rope effect".
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Okay I think the problem wad that i want leaving enough string to splice back in so I redid both, leaving 2 in for one an about 3 in for the other (that was an accident). It is holding when braced so I hope that means it's good.
Only problem is that at the right length, the center really isn't that twisted. It's easy to pull the bundles apart. Is that fine?
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Your twists in your loop are not tight enough. Make a reverse twist with one bundle with your right hand while holding the two bundles with your left, make it tight. Pinch off what you just did between your thumb and forefinger of your left hand and make another twist with your other bundle, pinch this off and keep going. The tighter you make it the better string you will make.
Like this;
(http://i.imgur.com/NQaRkjt.jpg)
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I am trying to give instructions that you can understand but I see where they can be confusing ; OK, when you do the reverse twist with a bundle, don't just give it a quick twist and pull it back toward you and start the same on the other bundle, give the bundle several twists. Twist it, get another grip and twist again until it just won't twist another time from being so tightly twisted, then pull it toward you, pinch it off and do the same to the other bundle.
You twist away from you (clockwise) with the individual bundles and then pull the twisted strands toward you( counterclockwise) and pinch it off before you proceed to the next bundle
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What can help bud is to wax those threads real good too as to holding that twist for ya.
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Well I think Eric's emphasis on tightening the twist was key because my story loops turned out way better. When I put then on the bow, they held though when I first strung it I felt something slip. The loops were still there so I know they weren't the problem but I don't know what it was.
Attached are pics of the loops. I hope they're good, then I can serve the string and finish the bow.
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Hey guys,
I've been very busy lately and don't think I ll have time to shoot in this bow for the next couple of weeks. I'm sorry, I really tried to finish this thing up quickly and wasn't able to go quick enough, plus I didn't hit my weight.
But I have been thinking of a solution to my problem. To increase weight and get rid of that annoying deflex that never comes out, I was thinking about modifying the length. By that I mean making a shorter draw, plains indian style bow. I know the comanche used unbacked osage orange for their horse bow and it might be interesting to try to replicate that. I'm thinking cutting off 8" on both sides, to get rid of the tricky knot on the one limb and the deflex on the other, and shortening the width to 1". It would make it 44" in length and I could add a slight reflex in the handle to give it more stored power.it would have a maximum of 22" draw so maybe I should start looking into sinew backing.
Does this sound like a good idea? Do you think I can still make it a self bow or should I just try making it a sinew backed bow?
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Maybe make a new bow? Bigger, better, more beautiful, tillered impeccably, without the slightest hint of deflex, the materialization of perfection itself. That's how I always see my next bow. And then it develops 3 inches of set. But the next one... :D
Sometimes you have to move on and just icorporate lessons learned into the next attmpt. Besides, making them is more than half the fun.
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Marin if your going to pike your bow it will Ruffly increase your draw weight by 5 lb. For each pair of 1in. You take off the limbs , but you probably would be better off finishing your bow piked a bit rather then trying to convert it to something it's not ,especially a sinew bow, learning bow making is a tuff game seems there is a big learning curve for most regardless of your skills or intelegence most fail a few times achieving consitent good bows , but I guarantee you learn more about bow making by missing your weight or breaking bows,I did & do and picking your self up dusting off and making another bow then just about any other way , I don't think there is such a thing as a perfect natural material bow there is always some thing that can be improved on the next !
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Thanks guys,
I could start another bow but I just thought that it could be possible to try and learn some more by reshaping this osage bow into something else. I'm not saying I did not learn anything from making this, I just thought it might be interesting to try and work more with osage.
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Shoot this one and start another. You can always come back to this bow and do your modifications. Actually that's a fun part of all this, coming back and picking bows out of the bucket of shame and making them work. But in order to do that you have to have a bucket of shame. That's where all the knowledge is stored.